i have a dream... Scavenger: Revolving multi-caliber carbine


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Blade&Bullet94
February 10, 2012, 05:09 AM
so this is an idea iv had bouncing around my head for a while now, ever since i saw the circuit judge carbine. a revolving carbine, 16.5 inch barrel, double action, 5 shot, with a quick change barrel and cylinder system. my two calibers of choice would be .45 and .30, and 2 cylinders for each - 45-70 Govt. and 45/410 for the .45, and 7.62x54R and 7.62x39 for the .30. this would be the ultimate survival rifle platform, and if it was done right, could be made almost as flexable as the T/C encore series. what i really want out of this thread is, what are your opinions and ideas? do the vetrans see something in this, or is my head just in the clouds? could a double action, swing out be done, or would a single action loading gate type be sturdier and simpler with the cylinder changing?

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Brian Williams
February 10, 2012, 05:56 AM
or is my head just in the clouds?yes

Deus Machina
February 10, 2012, 08:45 AM
Yeah, revolving rifles haven't been big for a reason.

Revolvers can have problems with gas cutting with .357. Even been injuries from the cylinder gap when someone has put their fingers too far forward on a .44.

Now imagine how that would turn out in a firearm with a burn rate twice as long and pressure twice as high.

Sam1911
February 10, 2012, 08:58 AM
Several problems with that idea. One of them is that bottle-necked and tapered cartridges do not get along well in a revolver AT ALL. They've been tried many times and they are insanely difficult to get to be and stay functional. Not at all conducive to anything like a "survival" firearm.

Having one barrel and cylinder set up to align correctly and then time correctly is not a perfectly simple problem. Having two cylinders set up is more complex. Having two cylinders and two barrels that can "quick change" into the same frame is a real feat of gunsmithing. Not -- at all -- the sort of thing you'd want to pay for in a "survival" firearm.

Firearms are not the primary concern in a survival situation, and to the extent that they are indeed useful, nothing complicated is really needed. Survival can be a matter of a very reliable single-shot .22LR. Or a simple shotgun. No need at all to be carrying around 10 lbs. of funky swappable multi-cartridge gun and all the different ammo for it.

And, if you can convince yourself that you would need a shotgun, small-bore rifle, and a powerful centerfire rifle just to survive (oooookay...:scrutiny:) you could easily buy one of each for what this complicated multi-thing would cost -- and then you'd have full redundancy in case one of them broke.

451 Detonics
February 10, 2012, 09:23 AM
I have to wonder how long a revolver forcing cone would last with a round like the 7.62X54, not to mention the flame cutting that would occur on the top strap of the cylinder frame.

Blade&Bullet94
February 10, 2012, 07:47 PM
thank you everybody for your input and insight. i had thought about the flame cutting, and thought maybe a shield like the circuit judge has, but i didnt even think about the wear and tear, and the timing of lining up 2 different barrel and cylinder sets. and i guess i misused "survival", i was thinking more of something that could use multiple types of ammunition. and yeah, i am one of those zombie guys, sue me XD.

MachIVshooter
February 10, 2012, 08:01 PM
One of them is that bottle-necked and tapered cartridges do not get along well in a revolver AT ALL. They've been tried many times and they are insanely difficult to get to be and stay functional

There is a solution to that problem. The Nagant system, albeit modified for more powerful cartridges. Not that it isn't without it's drawbacks (namely trigger pull), but the system does deal with both the cylinder gap and set-back problems.

As for the idea in general? Nothing wrong with it at all, but it would be more of an (expensive) novelty than a real survival gun. Something like the Savage model 24 in .22 Hornet over 20 ga is much more practical.

Blade&Bullet94
February 10, 2012, 08:24 PM
i had considered the nagant system, it would help with the gas gap and the bottlenecked cartridges. as for trigger pull, id be willing ti live with it. and your right, it is abit of a novelty, but i think everyone wants to see one of their ideas come to life. i think, maybe if just the .30 barrel, fixed to the frame, and the 2 cylinders for it, the x54R and the x39, with the nagant system, it would be much more doable.

MachIVshooter
February 10, 2012, 08:37 PM
Thinking a bit more on it, making the Nagant system robust enough for rifle cartridges would mean it needs to be actuated by means other than trigger/hammer. Some kind of pump set-up that rotates the cylinder and brings everything together on closing would be optimal, I think. It would also eliminate the heavy trigger issue. It would make for a very strange-looking firearm, though.........

RustHunter87
February 10, 2012, 08:46 PM
7.62x54R that would be a big nagant, interesting idea though.

Blade&Bullet94
February 10, 2012, 09:15 PM
actually.. hehe.... i had. a lever. like on a lever action firearm, opening the lever lets the cylinder come back and cocks the hammer, closing the lever rotates the cylinder and pushes it foreward, locking it into place. yes , it would look strange, but i love that.

MachIVshooter
February 10, 2012, 09:54 PM
actually.. hehe.... i had. a lever. like on a lever action firearm, opening the lever lets the cylinder come back and cocks the hammer, closing the lever rotates the cylinder and pushes it foreward, locking it into place. yes , it would look strange, but i love that.

That could work, too. Would make the receiver really bulky, but then, it would take a pretty darn big cylinder to house five or six 7.62x54 cartridges anyway. Probably about 2" diameter, I'd think....

Blade&Bullet94
February 11, 2012, 12:11 AM
yeah, and im fine with that. it would be odd, and heavy, but i like a heavier gun in my hands, and it would need to be heavy to crank out 5 shots of 54R out of a 16 inch barrel in rapid succesion. what i really want out of this whole dream project is a rugged carbine, more reliable than an automatic, more versitle than a bolt action, that would be fun and cheap to shoot. im not setting out to make the worlds perfect rifle, im trying to make my perfect rifle. i think everyone wants something that they feel is tailor made to them, and i just love this idea for a revolving lever carbine.

Don357
February 11, 2012, 12:28 AM
Does anyone remember the "Medusa" revolver? How about a carbine/rifle built like a Medusa, except in a larger caliber, say .45, where you could shoot .45gap, .45acp, .45 Colt, .45Win Mag and .45-70? You could use the same "flash guards" as are used on the "Circuit Judge", and with a swing-out cylinder, you could use speed loaders. Or go with a top-break design like the Scholfield, Early S&W's and the Russian T-Rex.

firesky101
February 11, 2012, 01:17 AM
.45-70=.458 .45ACP=.452 Thats the issue I have with that. But... I love everything chambered in 7.62x54r, so I have no problem with that one.

ThorinNNY
February 11, 2012, 10:24 AM
Why not make a dreilling (not sure of correct spelling) for a survival gun? It looks like a SxS shotgun, with a rifle caliber barrel underneath. If you had 2 12 gauge barrels over a 7.62 x 54 r, you`d probably be ready for anything that you`d come across .
It`s been a popular design in Europe, but they`re very pricey .

Tirod
February 11, 2012, 10:38 AM
7.62x54R and 7.62x39

There's the main issue in a nutshell - overall cartridge length between the two is radically different. A cylinder set up for the Russian rim is going to have a huge leade on the x39. Accuracy will suffer considerably.

Much less the extreme flash from the gap - it's not about the forcing cone, it's about rifle powder burning at nearly full pressure just as the bullet jumps the gap. Erosion will be the simpler problem to control, the 45,000 pound pressure escaping a circular gap measured in fractions of an inch will likely mean some kind of shielding to protect the shooter.

Build the Russian first, and film it. I don't want to be within ten feet of it on a firing line, tho.

ThorinNNY
February 11, 2012, 10:44 AM
Blade&Bullet 94
Winchester made a lever action rifle that was able to handle cartriges with the pointed tip,because it had a box type magazine rather than a tube magazine. It was chambered for the 7.62x 54R cartriges, among others.It would give you 5 shots. Maybe you could find one.
There are mosin nagant 7.62 revolvers avilable. Seems if you had the Winchester with box magazine and a nagant revolver, you`d be well equipped fpr survival.
Personally, I`d rather go with a mosin nagant m38 or m44 carbine.If you can find a decent m38 your`e ahead of the game since there`s no bayonnet to remove. M44 if you remove bayonnet, you just move the front sight to compensate.
From what i`ve read, there are several .32 cal. cartriges that can be safely shot in a moisn nagasnt revolver.

Blade&Bullet94
February 12, 2012, 05:42 AM
yeah, found that winchester lever action.... the 1895.... those are NOT cheap! XD very cool rifle though. this whole thread was mostly for a theory anyway, i wanted to know what people with more experiance thought of the ideas, and could help steer me in the right direction. i think im better off buying a cheap mosin nagant (dont worry, i would never destroy anything with collector value, i have my pride) and just moddifying it to make it my own.

Blade&Bullet94
February 14, 2012, 03:11 AM
just wondering in this thread the topic of an over and under of two different calibers was brought up. are there any laws concerning underslinging one firearm to another? like a cheap single shot 410 under a bolt action rifle, say a mosin nagant ( i know theres some of you purists out there, im talking hypothetical, with a run of the mil no collector value firearm). this is just a curiosity of mine and thats what this whole thread is about.

kozak6
February 14, 2012, 03:50 AM
yeah, found that winchester lever action.... the 1895.... those are NOT cheap!

The proposed revolving rifle wouldn't be either.

Another issue is that 7.62x39 is a rimless cartridge, which makes extraction much more interesting.

are there any laws concerning underslinging one firearm to another?

Not exactly. As long as barrel length and overall length requirements are met, there shouldn't be any issues.

Blade&Bullet94
February 14, 2012, 05:51 AM
cool. ha, a single shot 410 integrated to a mosin nagant would certainly be an interesting firearm. would probley be abit heavy, but im a big boy :). would make a nice woods rifle, 5 shots of 7.62x54R for deer sized game, and a single shot of 410 #8 or 7 for a bird or rabbit. a bolt action 410 would be lighter than a break action, and easier to incorperate into the mosin nagant. i can already hear the roaring boos from alot of people about keeping the rifle "pure," and i can understand that for one that has collector value, but if its just a standard 80$ rifle, no harm no foul.

ThorinNNY
February 14, 2012, 08:45 AM
Dr.LeMat of New Orleans, designed a 10 shot, revolving pistol in the 1850`s, I believe.It had two barrels. It had a nine shot cylinder for shooting.41 round ball out of a rifled upper barrel and a lower 20 gauge smooth barrel that fired a single load of birdshot.
It was successful design and many Confederate officers used it during the Civil War. It was powerful, but lacked the range and accuracy of a Colt`s or Remington.
It was a formidable weapon for use by cavalry men.It did have some flaws, like the loading lever tending to break at the most inconvenient times.
I don`t think it was ever offered in a carbine, like Colt offered,though.

Manny
February 14, 2012, 09:38 AM
Sorry, but I can't picture the weapon described as being anything but an impractical Rube Goldberg contraption. I know I sure wouldn't want one. Still, if you ever hit a (large) lotto you'd have something you could spend a whole bunch of money on......

To ThorinNNY: That Webster quote is terrific and I think the best description of the motivation of our current POTUS that I've seen.

Blade&Bullet94
February 14, 2012, 05:01 PM
yeah, iv seen one of those lemat revolvers, theyr very interesting contraptions.

hang fire
February 14, 2012, 05:31 PM
The LeMat 20 ga is actually the base pin for revolver, so there is no lower, it is centered.

ThorinNNY
February 14, 2012, 05:48 PM
Blade&bullet94
You can buy a repro of the LeMat,but the bottom barrel is NON-Firing. If they built one strong enough to handle smokeless ammo like 7.62 x54R and a shot shell it`s probably have to be really weighty. And having one made up would cost a lot more than i want to think about.But they do sell a carbine version of the Judge but I think you could only get 5 shots out of it and is limited to .45Long Colt and .410 shotshell.
Savage used to make a model 24 .30-30 over 20 gauge that was really nice.It only gives you 2 shots,but it IS versatile.

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