HELP - Are 1911s Really This Bad?


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40SWHero51
February 11, 2012, 01:39 AM
Citizens,

I went to one of my local ranges today and fired a 1911 for the first time. I have always thought, as many of you think, that this is one of the best looking and best feeling guns in the world. It is THE quintessential firearm.

However, upon my endeavor, I was surprisingly disappointed. The story goes like this:

I rented the SW1911, of course SW as I am an M&P man, I was given choice between this and a Springfield. It was a 7+1 capacity, 4.25" barrel, standard 1911. No bells and whistles, looked and felt like a solid pistol. It fit my hand as it always had in the gun stores - perfectly.

I placed my belongings on the bench area behind me, proceeded to Lane 2, and hoisted my target. While loading I noticed that the gun was very dirty, as most range guns are - it was covered in soot. No matter I thought - I continued until all 7 rounds were seated. I set the target out about 20 or so feet, inserted the mag, and released the slide.

During the first 7 rounds the slide failed to completely cycle twice! I was forced to either push the slide forward or completely clear the round to properly complete the cycle. The trend continued with all 50 rounds. Every few shots or so the slide failed to come completely forward.

The trigger felt fine, the recoil was mild, and it seemed accurate enough - but I was not pleased with the operation. The slide release is much farther away from my thumb than I am accustomed and the safety lever is boisterous and cumbersome.

So, this is where I sit - how to handle being disappointed with an American legend.

Please tell me the slide issue is due to lack of cleaning, please tell me that the "controls" don't feel the same way for every manufacturer, please tell me that THE gun is better than this.

Should I give it another shot, should I try a Springfield or does it matter? Was this an S&W issue or was I just unlucky?

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Certaindeaf
February 11, 2012, 01:41 AM
Were you shooting factory loads? If so, what were they?

40SWHero51
February 11, 2012, 01:44 AM
Yes - looked to be a local manufacturer, Atlanta Arms and Ammo - 230 gr. FMJ.

jon_in_wv
February 11, 2012, 01:50 AM
My experience with 1911s has lead me to believe that IF you are lucky the your 1911 will preform as well, and be as accurate as an M&P. It will probably cost about as much as the M&P, and a years worth of ammo.
You will probably get 500 posts of guys defending the 1911, blaming the ammo, or a host of other excuses but the bottom line is that if you had rented a M&p 45 its not likely you would have started a thread similar to this. I'm just saying.

Hondo 60
February 11, 2012, 01:52 AM
Sounds like your intuition is correct.
Filth made for a bad experience.

1911s are usually very reliable guns.
The above poster not withstanding.

I wouldn't blame S&W for filthy pistols.
I also don't think I'd go back to that place again.

If they can't clean the gun, they probably aren't cleaning the rest of the range either.
I'd be very concerned with how much lead you're breathing in.

texgunner
February 11, 2012, 02:02 AM
That sounds like a very dirty pistol. Keep them clean and properly lubed they're usually a reliable pistol. You mentioned that it was "sooty," it was probably dry.

walking arsenal
February 11, 2012, 02:02 AM
Yep. Usually are.

My personal one saw three trips to the smiths and one to the factory before it began to run right and I bought it new!

MyGreenGuns
February 11, 2012, 02:07 AM
Most range guns get abused and cleaned seldom. You might have had a poorly maintained gun.

1911's I've shot:
Llama 4" - Nothing special
Charles Daly Commander 3" - Sold due to broken swing-link
Springfield Mil-Spec - My fave, might buy one of these
Kimber - Desert Warrior looks awesome, but didnt shoot that one

The Springfield was the stiffest, but was new. The only one I ever had problems with was the Charles Daly. Should have kept it, I know how to fix it now.

40SWHero51
February 11, 2012, 02:09 AM
I'd be very concerned with how much lead you're breathing in.

Believe you me - plenty, the back of my throat was none too pleased. Not my normal range - bought a LivingSocial deal that could not be passed-up. In my opinion .45ACP is too expensive to target shoot, as the rental and ammo were on the house, I threw caution to the wind...

Fishslayer
February 11, 2012, 02:18 AM
Just get the Glock fer pete's sake...

allaroundhunter
February 11, 2012, 02:19 AM
When properly maintained, they will be very reliable....

When improperly maintained, they will be more reliable than the one that you shot.....

When not maintained at all......well, you saw how that worked out


And all of them have roughly the same style of safety, but while style varies slightly, location does not. Slide lock will be in the same place for each. Just like any other gun, the design might not fit you well.....disappointing, but there is not a single gun that fits everyone (not even a Glock, I know someone reading this is thinking it...)

dcarch
February 11, 2012, 02:39 AM
I have a Kimber Custom II that just passed 800 rounds. Zero failures of any sort thus far.

CmdrSlander
February 11, 2012, 02:43 AM
No, 101 years of service! And counting! Its like asking "Are Metallic Cartridges Really this Bad?"

mljdeckard
February 11, 2012, 02:54 AM
I've carried over a dozen different handguns. I currently carry a full-size 1911, and I don't see myself ever changing.

Rental guns and range supplied ammo aren't usually a good combination.

psyshack
February 11, 2012, 04:27 AM
Just another over rated dirty 1911. They are not good runners until they rattle like ball bearings in a coffee can as a combat weapon when you shake them. Tight and right! they can be nail drives. Try to run them like a Glock or M&P in a dust, sand storm or drag them through a mud hole and they fail. I honestly feel sorry for the poor man or men that had to carry my now rattling always works Colt from Korean war. It had to be darn near worn out before it was as good as a modern combat weapon.

Bovice
February 11, 2012, 04:53 AM
Most people I hear speaking of 1911s have had to tune them before they run with the consistency of modern combat pistols. This is both from the forums and in person. The problem is so many different manufacturers making "almost the same" parts and trying to intermingle them, and you get what is known as tolerance stack-up. If you get a 1911 that runs right out of the box, that is awesome. If you got one out of the box and had to tinker with it to make it work, you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate. I have no doubts that a tuned 1911 will be a reliable gun, but most shooters are looking for the tuned-and-tinkered performance from a factory new 1911 (since they heard that 1911s were the best) and are surprised when it isn't so.

bigfatdave
February 11, 2012, 06:11 AM
I rented the SW1911, of course SW as I am an M&P man, I was given choice between this and a Springfield. It was a 7+1 capacity, 4.25" barrel, standard 1911.
Well, actually, the smif uses an external extractor claw rather than an internal, as the original design calls for ... and 4.25" is commander length, not "standard"
So, no, you didn't have a "standard" unit, and you had an obviously poorly maintained unit, and you were shooting Ronnie Reloader's "range specials", and I'm guessing that you're not experienced enough to do anything beyond basic troubleshooting (which most people who haven't been tinkering with the internals of a 1911-derived pistol don't have, I'm not trying to be insulting here) ... and what magazine were you using? Was it a factory-supplied Smif mag or a Wilson? Chip McCormick? Metalform? ProMag? MecGar? Colt? Kimber? Were the feedlips in good shape? Which style were they?

A reasonably-designed 1911-style pistol will be very reliable. There is a current trend of slapping on "custon" and "accuracy" features to what is essentially a combat pistol. Trying to wring out more accuracy or make the gun look like it has "better fit and finish" can cause issues as tolerances get tighter and crud doesn't blow out as fast as it is generated. Add in a complete lack of lubrication, who knows how many bits of brass/carbon/lead/copper built up in the action, and the junk ammo, and of course you get lousy reliability.

These overengineered pistols are where the "unreliable 1911" rumor starts. Some guy decides that the more expensive pistol must be the better one, and they buy it expecting it to run like a top on Ronnie Reloader's ammo or cheap junk. Then when it malfunctions or breaks a part due to being built too damn tight or being fed junk ammo, or trying to feed it from crap magazines ... so they sell it off without trying to do any troubleshooting and forever proclaim that all 1911s are like their 1911 to whoever will listen.

JDGray
February 11, 2012, 06:23 AM
I had a S&W SC Commander, and the recoil spring on it was a beast compared to all the other 1911s I've owned. The spring, and being dirty, could very well slow the slide down to the point of getting failed extraction. Weak ammo would be my first guess however.

ugaarguy
February 11, 2012, 06:24 AM
you were shooting Ronnie Reloader's "range specials",
I agree with the rest of your post, but I'd not blame Atlanta Arms & Ammo, nor call them "Ronnie Reloader's range specials" - that is, unless you think the match ammo used by STI, Team Glock, The AMU, and The Marine Service Pistol Teams to be something made by "Ronnie Reloader" - http://www.atlantaarmsandammo.com/MATCH_AMMO/match_ammo.html. AAA's reloads aren't match grade, but they're higher quality than alot of new ammo made by big names. Cough-WWB-cough.

1911Tuner
February 11, 2012, 06:26 AM
Sadly, it seems that some of'em are that bad. It wasn't always so, but with the present day clone wars...and with many of the people who crank'em out seeming to approach blueprint specs as suggestions...it's hardly surprising.

bigfatdave
February 11, 2012, 06:30 AM
I was unaware that they were a large commercial reloader ... are they on par with Georgia Arms?

ugaarguy
February 11, 2012, 06:42 AM
AAA is probably better than GA Arms, and as you know GA Arms is good ammo. AAA makes some reasonably priced, but very good 10mm target loads. My local range stocks their reman, new, and match ammo. The reman & new comes in blue boxes with a "New Ammo" sticker on the ammo made from new brass - the brass is really the only difference in the two blue box lines, and it's really good target ammo. One of the range managers keeps an eye out for me on 10mm, because the range orders reman target ammo, but often gets the orders filled with new brass blue box for the same price when fired brass is short. The black box match ammo is beyond my skill level, but another RO there has been an IPSC member since the 70s, and he's just flat out scary with AAA black box & the range's SA Range Officer 1911.

1911Tuner
February 11, 2012, 06:46 AM
I agree with the rest of your post, but I'd not blame Atlanta Arms & Ammo, nor call them "Ronnie Reloader's range specials" - that is, unless you think the match ammo used by STI, Team Glock, The AMU, and The Marine Service Pistol Teams to be something made by "Ronnie Reloader" -

I'll have to go on the premise that there are two levels of ammunition offered. A young cop from Durham, NC accompanied me to the range one fine Sunday, and he brought a .30 caliber can fulla GA .45 ammo. Out of about a hundred rounds, he had two squibs that brought his plate-bustin' to a halt until we broke the gun down and drove the stuck bullets out. I was...underwhelmed.

12131
February 11, 2012, 06:49 AM
A rental filthy gun, I bet that's the answer, as others have pointed out.

ugaarguy
February 11, 2012, 06:55 AM
Tuner, GA Arms and Atlanta Arms & Ammo are two different companies. The local range switched to AAA some years ago for their better ammo. I've spent more money than I care admit running AAA .45 ACP reloads full auto thru that range's Thompson SMG, and never had a problem - except for the tab when I was done :o

1911Tuner
February 11, 2012, 07:06 AM
Ah! Thought it was Georgia Arms.

ichiban
February 11, 2012, 08:35 AM
So, basically what you are saying is that you rented a Mustang (just an example, let's not start that discussion) from Hertz and it was a beat up piece of crap that didn't run well. And you want to know if all Mustangs are pieces of crap that don't run well. Is that about it?

JTQ
February 11, 2012, 09:24 AM
Please tell me the slide issue is due to lack of cleaning
I believe it probably could have run fine as dirty as it was, but my guess is it just needed some lube. Pull the slide back to lock. Put a drop or two of lube about a half inch from the end of the barrel, turn the pistol over and put a drop or two on the expose section of the slide rails. Close the action and put a drop or two on the barrel hood. Rack the slide several times. You are ready to shoot.
The slide release is much farther away from my thumb than I am accustomed and the safety lever is boisterous and cumbersome.
please tell me that the "controls" don't feel the same way for every manufacturer
The controls are basically the same from every manufacturer. You probably need to move on. You've grown up in the polymer age and that's what feels "right" to you.

Averageman
February 11, 2012, 09:39 AM
I have a Colt series 70 that has never had as much as a hic-up.
Things to look for in a 1911 in my opinion are.
1) Get the full sized 1911 to start with. This was how they were designed and how they run best. You can get a Commander later.
2) Unse good magazines, Chip Mc Cormicks have never let me down.
3) Don't go cheap on ammo. You dont have to buy premium stuff, but some cheap ammo leaves a gun dirtier.
4) Clean it after every time you shoot it.
5) Lube the rails with a light coat of grease.

CDR_Glock
February 11, 2012, 09:45 AM
I believe it probably could have run fine as dirty as it was, but my guess is it just needed some lube. Pull the slide back to lock. Put a drop or two of lube about a half inch from the end of the barrel, turn the pistol over and put a drop or two on the expose section of the slide rails. Close the action and put a drop or two on the barrel hood. Rack the slide several times. You are ready to shoot.


The controls are basically the same from every manufacturer. You probably need to move on. You've grown up in the polymer age and that's what feels "right" to you.

I usually bring gun oil with me for that reason. Then again, I bring my bore snake and give mine a few passes just after shooting before I take them home to clean.

As for the OP, who knows the maintenance run on it. How many rounds have gone through it. Was it reassembled correctly (did the last shooter take it apart, exchange a part and reassemble it?). What's the condition of the springs and magazine? Most commonly the magazine in any auto will be the failure point. How did the magazine fit? Where there dents? The angle or condition of the follower?

Don't write off a 1911. They're damn great guns. Easy to shoot. Reliable if designed well.

I trust Springfield and Colt. The new Ruger SR1911 also looks promising but I couldn't find one anywhere for a normal price (price gougers). Para Ordnance seems to be easier to shoot because of wider grips helping with recoil but I prefer the single stack variety.

I only have one 1911, right now. It's very reliable and accurate. I've only shot out to 50 yards, though. I didn't try further since my gun club was busy that day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8IwZ-PfmVk&feature=youtube_gdata_player



iPad/Tapatalk

we are not amused
February 11, 2012, 09:50 AM
I never owned or fired a 1911 until a few years ago, simply because I thought they were large and clumsy looking gun. Till a few years ago when a friend let me shoot his. I became an instant convert. It is not my favorite shooting gun, but it is a very close second.
While mine is a cheap, used and abused 1911 clone, and has had a few issues concerning light loads and some extreme hollow point bullets, it shoots extremely well with FMJ, and most 230 grain loads.
I am not going to claim to be a 1911 expert, but it is obvious you had a dirty and not well maintained gun. No gun will shoot well, unless proper maintenance is performed.

Give the 1911 another try, with a decently maintained gun, I think you will pleasantly surprised.

jackpinesavages
February 11, 2012, 09:54 AM
No, they are not all that bad. I have 3 I am pleased with, 3 different brands.

They need a higher degree of cleaning/lube attention and a rental unit is not a good example to base conclusions.

Guillermo
February 11, 2012, 09:56 AM
HERESY ALERT

Once upon a time I was a 45 guy. BIG TIME!!!

Owned several. It was rare when my cocked and locked commander was not with me.

Sure, I would have a gunsmith polish here and there (feed ramp). Bevel the magazine well, but my guns were mostly stock. Not cobbled up.

While clearing a stovepipe I would be proclaiming the superiority of the weapon.

Hundreds upon hundreds of dollars later, I sold them all. I never got any of them to run reliably...ever.

The explanations are numerous and came from various gunsmiths (one locally famous) Bad magazine, bad ejector...the list goes on and on.

I LOVE to shoot a 1911. (with a flat mainspring housing) they point perfectly for me. And they just feel...right.

While many have 1911s that run like clocks, that was not my experience.

The only 45 I presently own is a plastic, striker fire. If the flag goes up I would be much more comfortable with it on my side than a 1911.

YMMV

(cowering in the corner, waiting for the mobs with the torches and pitchforks.)

solman
February 11, 2012, 10:00 AM
If you rent a gun and it performs to your liking well than their you have it. You might find its comfortable, fits your hand well, and shoots to POA. If a rental gun feels right in the hand but has failures well there is a lot to consider. Some of these rentals have never been cleaned or lubed at all. Range ammo is an unknown if not major brand. The conditions of the mags is another factor that can cause failures.
Just my .02 YMMV

HDCamel
February 11, 2012, 10:41 AM
Not a full-size 1911
Altered design
Most malfunctions with 1911s are magazine related
Failure to go into battery could mean the recoil spring needs to be replaced

Basically a combination of a different-spec design and poor maintainance.
People who say "use the Glock or the M&P" have the wrong mindset. Just because you CAN abuse a gun doesn't mean you should or condone others doing so. A well maintained 1911 (not a hard task by any stretch of the imagination) will go bang every time.

LeonCarr
February 11, 2012, 10:53 AM
So far all of the excuses given for the 1911s for not running right have been done to Glocks and many other more modern designs and they run without malfunctions. Dirty as sin, no fancy aftermarket magazines, not enough lubrication, etc etc.

If you want to practice malfunction drills like the OP, buy a 1911 and then buy a spare 1911. That way you will have one to shoot when the other one is in the shop.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Averageman
February 11, 2012, 11:07 AM
So far all of the excuses given for the 1911s for not running right have been done to Glocks and many other more modern designs and they run without malfunctions. Dirty as sin, no fancy aftermarket magazines, not enough lubrication, etc etc.

I own both 1911's and Glocks, neither runs without lubrication, both require magazines and both have after market magazines that aren't worth a crap.
If you want to practice malfunction drills like the OP, buy a 1911 and then buy a spare 1911. That way you will have one to shoot when the other one is in the shop.
I haven't had this issue as my 1911 ran well out of the box. It is a standard model Colt series 70 with little done to it past shooting it a lot and Chip McCormick magazines. Most issues with 1911's I have seen were user self induced issues, they either want to build a better 1911 with after market parts or never clean it.

EddieNFL
February 11, 2012, 11:22 AM
Gotta love internet experts.

"I've never fired a 1911, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night...free wifi."

MAG-63
February 11, 2012, 11:40 AM
I wouldn't make any firm judgements about ANY pistol based upon experiences gained from rentals + range ammo.

jon_in_wv
February 11, 2012, 11:42 AM
Posted by Hondo60.
1911s are usually very reliable guns.
The above poster not withstanding.

Lets take what I said in context. A good well tuned/made 1911 may be AS reliable as a Glock/M&P/XD/SIG/etc.....NORMALLY is. It isn't more reliable. In my experience, to get a well tuned/made 1911 you are normally going to spend a lot more for that reliability than you would for one of the other pistols.

There are so many 1911 manufacturers and quality varies wildly. If you buy a Glock/M&P/Sig/etc.........you pretty much know what you are getting. Are all $500 1911s as reliable as a Glock? Nope. Are all $500 Glocks about as reliable as the next? Yup.

Zach S
February 11, 2012, 11:45 AM
I always though of Atlanta Arms as a -p load. With an MP5, I could dump a full mag and keep all of the rounds in the center diamond of redfield sight-in target at 25 rounds.

Its a rental gun, so did you tell the owner or employee?

Typical 1911? Not in my experience. I bought a used Kimber for $500, threw in a fresh recoil spring, and decided to lube it and shoot it till it jammed. When I opened my sixth case of ammo, I decided to give up. Had to bead blast it to get it clean...

Hangingrock
February 11, 2012, 11:48 AM
I was at the range yesterday With a Colt XSE series Government Model and a Springfield (Loaded Series) 1911-A1. The Colt occasionally chokes on 200gr-SWC while the Springfield is reliable.

Ive changed to a slightly different configuration of the 200gr-SWC which apparently works smoothly in both.

Either way Ive never encountered feeding issues with the S&W 4506 probably the best 3rd generation pistol that S&W produced.

If there was only one manufacture of the 1911 series pistol and one magazine producer wed be the better for it.

armarsh
February 11, 2012, 12:22 PM
... And you want to know if all Mustangs are pieces of crap that don't run well. Is that about it?

All mustangs are pieces of crap that don't run well. That is all. :evil:

rferizano
February 11, 2012, 01:12 PM
The 1911 is antiquated junk that the military scraped in 1947 and finally stopped using when they ran out of spare parts they had accumulated to keep the clunkers running another 40 years. Thank GOD for the M9 Beretta, a real small arms carry weapon!

HKGuns
February 11, 2012, 01:20 PM
Range guns should not be used to measure the reliability or accuracy of any model. The purpose of a range gun is for you to operate it, make sure the grip works for you and the controls work for you. That is about the extent of what you can learn from a range gun.

All mustangs are pieces of crap that don't run well. That is all.

Wrong. I suppose you prefer something made by Obama Motors that is less reliable and with less horsepower.

Dr_B
February 11, 2012, 01:30 PM
Sounds like a bad experience with a dirty, abused range rental. I've never fired a 1911 that had any troubles other than the usual pickiness with non-ball ammo.

EddieNFL
February 11, 2012, 01:37 PM
I've never fired a 1911 that had any troubles other than the usual pickiness with non-ball ammo.

I've learned to stay away from non-ball. All I use is cast SWCs and JHPs.

allaroundhunter
February 11, 2012, 01:45 PM
I've learned to stay away from non-ball. All I use is cast SWCs and JHPs.

.....I'm hoping this is sarcasm considering both SWCs and JHPs are non-ball rounds.....

Fishslayer
February 11, 2012, 02:01 PM
.....I'm hoping this is sarcasm considering both SWCs and JHPs are non-ball rounds.....

Hard to tell. The ignorance and troll strong in this thread are.

rferizano
February 11, 2012, 02:24 PM
:rolleyes:I learned to stay away from all 1911 format guns and I sleep much better at night knowing my Glock 36 is under my pillow in case something goes bump! My wife is happy about no more oil stains on her pillow cases too!........LOL

1911Tuner
February 11, 2012, 02:35 PM
Here's the straight skinny on the 1911 platform.

The pistol was designed to function. If it's built to specs...the correct specs, and fed decent ammunition from proper magazines...it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice.

The problem with the 1911 today is that so many people have been trying to outsmart John Browning for so long, they really believe they have.

EddieNFL
February 11, 2012, 02:55 PM
.....I'm hoping this is sarcasm considering both SWCs and JHPs are non-ball rounds.....

Just a jab at another "read it on the 'net" remark.

Hard to tell. The ignorance and troll strong in this thread are.

Sure is, Yoda

mljdeckard
February 11, 2012, 03:48 PM
Having been deployed, I would GLADLY take my 1911 to war with me. Tight as it is. I think that the sloppy factor ultimately does more harm than good, providing spaces for abrasives to accumulate, and with play giving more space for tight things to rattle loose.

Zach S
February 11, 2012, 04:11 PM
The problem with the 1911 today is that so many people have been trying to outsmart John Browning for so long, they really believe they have.
New sig;)

Tcruse
February 11, 2012, 04:38 PM
Well, the last two 1911s that my friends loaned be to show me (they were at the range at thetime of failures, and i was not actually shooting the guns at time of failure) the error of my ways broke the same day. One had the rear sights fall off and the other had the front sight shatter in any tiny pieces. So, I will stay with combat Tupperware, Glocks and Rugers.

1911Tuner
February 11, 2012, 04:48 PM
Tcruse...your reaction is understandable. There's really no excuse for things like that. The problems associated with the 1911 aren't in the design, but rather in the execution. I suppose it's just another symptom of the ever encroaching age of mediocrity.

armarsh
February 11, 2012, 05:47 PM
...Wrong. I suppose you prefer something made by Obama Motors that is less reliable and with less horsepower.

Everyone else realized this was a joke. Good for you to buck the trend. :D

bob kk
February 11, 2012, 06:26 PM
I have three Kimbers.Target. Compact and Ultra Carry. Bought all three new and the newest one is about eight years old. Shoot lots of cast bullets 200 grain SWC's. Only trouble I've had was the Compact recoil spring wore out and I replaced it. Don't think I've had a failure with one except the bad recoil spring.

JohnBT
February 11, 2012, 06:43 PM
"are they on par with Georgia Arms? "

Heck no. It's not bad ammo, but that's my answer. Actually, I edited my answer to clean it up.

The local indoor range has sold Atlanta Arms ammo forever and you have to shoot their ammo and AA is cheap. So I have some experience with it.

I've purchased Georgia Arms ammo at almost every gun show here for 10 or 20 years. I bought two 500-round cans of .45 the last time. Again, I have some experience.

John

JohnBT
February 11, 2012, 06:47 PM
"So far all of the excuses given for the 1911s for not running right have been done to Glocks and many other more modern designs and they run without malfunctions."

Yeah, sure, they are all perfect. You actually typed that with a straight face? All those models being perfect and never having a single problem is a fantasy.

jmr40
February 11, 2012, 06:52 PM
Here's the straight skinny on the 1911 platform.

The pistol was designed to function. If it's built to specs...the correct specs, and fed decent ammunition from proper magazines...it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice.

The problem with the 1911 today is that so many people have been trying to outsmart John Browning for so long, they really believe they have.
__________________



This is worth repeating. I've had more than a fair share of 1911's that were pure junk. Some from big name companies such as Colt and SA. I've owned others that have run perfect for me. Including a Kimber which gets less than glowing reports on the net. This is why there are so many wildly varying opinions on 1911 quality. The guns themselves vary in quality greatly.

I will say that the 2 S&W 1911's I currently own have proven to be the most 1911 for the money of the ones I've owned. I'm chalking this up to poor gun maintenence and, or poor quality ammo.

WC145
February 11, 2012, 07:00 PM
Did anybody look at the advertised velocity on that ammo - 735fps - more than 15% slower than standard 230gr ball. Combine that with a dry dirty rental gun and you've got a recipe for for failures.

I own a bunch of 1911s - Colt, S&W, Springfield, Detonics - I carry them on and off duty. I keep them clean and lubed and use full power ammo and they run like clockwork. I'm sure that if I treated them like rental guns - ran them dirty and dry with weak ammo - I'd have the same troubles as the OP.

WC145
February 11, 2012, 07:01 PM
Tcruse...your reaction is understandable. There's really no excuse for things like that. The problems associated with the 1911 aren't in the design, but rather in the execution. I suppose it's just another symptom of the ever encroaching age of mediocrity.
Great post!

labhound
February 11, 2012, 07:03 PM
Only one manufacturer makes Glocks. Only one makes Sigs. Only one makes M&P's. Just about every gun maker makes 1911's. If everyone made Glocks, you'd have some POS's there too!

dirtengineer
February 11, 2012, 07:10 PM
I bet it would be fine after a couple minutes with a toothbrush and your favorite CLP.

krupparms
February 11, 2012, 07:50 PM
As I been lucky to own &shoot a fair number of guns starting at age 12 & now being 52 . I must say just like other tools some are made better than others, and Q.C. can and will very! Most if not all the 1911's I have owned or shot did fine as long as they were clean! I have had a number FTF when they got dirty & dry! Just like most guns will! I own other guns, but most of the time I carry a 1911 in .45acp.! Just my 2 cents. Good luck with you're choice! :)

dcarch
February 11, 2012, 09:50 PM
I shot a Citadel 5'' 1911 versus my Kimber Custom II the other day, and the difference was very noticeable. There is a huge difference in quality between manufacturers. Just because a gun looks like another gun, doesn't mean it functions on the same level.

rondog
February 11, 2012, 09:57 PM
Rental gun, I bet the recoil spring's worn out.

oso
February 11, 2012, 10:23 PM
i own the poly guns as well as 3 1911's. the 1911 by far has a much better trigger,much better accuracy and just as reliable as any poly gun. here's the kicker i own a Colt series 80, i own a Kimber and i own a Taurus PT1911. guess which 1911 shoots the best and eats any ammo i put through it including reloads, the TAURUS thats right it is more accurate than the kimber which i paid more than twice as much for it. the Colt shoots good but i can't run any ammo through it. the Taurus was accurate and reliable right out of the box even with all the MIM parts that everybody seems to frwn upon. just because the pistol costs less don't think for a minute that it must be of lower quality simply is not true at least with the Taurus.

orionengnr
February 12, 2012, 12:14 AM
The first handgun I ever shot was my dad's WWII 1911. The first handgun I ever bought was an old 1911. It turned out to be a POS. This turned me against 1911s for a good period of time.
The first revolver I ever bought turned out to be a POS. This turned me against revolvers for a good period of time.

In both instances, this was a rush to judgement on my part. Today I own several 1911s and S&W revolvers, and enjoy them all.

These days, I carry a 1911 every day.

Nothing is ever as it appears at first glance.

Guillermo
February 12, 2012, 02:18 AM
The problem with the 1911 today is that so many people have been trying to outsmart John Browning for so long, they really believe they have

This is a GREAT quote.

Not my experience but I totally LOVE it!!!

PabloJ
February 12, 2012, 02:31 AM
There is nothing wrong with well made one if that is what one desires. Personally I would want something with more modern features instead of gun that was designed to replace six-shot revolver.

exavid
February 12, 2012, 02:32 AM
There are 1911s and there are 1911s. If you're talking about WWII vintage goverment issued ones they weren't all that accurate for most GIs. These were mass produced guns not hand tuned by gunsmiths. The one I was issued in the Army and qualified with operated well, in that it always fired with the military ammo and didn't jam. It was clean because you'd get your butt hauled kicked and be on KP if you turned in a dirty weapon to the arms room. The gun wasn't particularly accurate but would do what is was supposed to do. I owned a Cold Government version for several years. It hadn't been issued and was like new when I got it for $45. I never really used it much, living in Alaska I usually carried a S&W 29 for a sidearm when in the bush so I eventually sold it for $75. Got a pretty good deal on that one. Back then anyway. Personally I wouldn't swap two M1911s for my Ruger P345 if I couldn't sell them and buy another P345. All of the above doesn't really apply to the current crop of high priced better made 1911 clones which are a totally different animal.

shiftyer1
February 12, 2012, 02:59 AM
I own 2 1911's, one is a safari arms from the late 80's and the other is a para gi expert of recent manufacture. I had 2 jams when I first got the safari, one from a bad grip and the other from a $3 mag. Other than that not one problem, and i'm a cheapskate when it comes to ammo.

I don't roll around in the mud or put them thru more than just day to day use but if I did I would expect failure of some kind from any gun.

I did recently have a llama max in .40cal at the shop and it came from the factory with a feed ramp that was so wrong I don't know how it left the factory. It wouldn't even chamber a round!

ArthurDent
February 12, 2012, 03:10 AM
I dunno... my "jury" is still out.

I have friends that wouldn't have anything but a 1911. They swear by them.

My personal experience has been anything but wonderful. I've wanted one since I got to shoot one on my first range trip, years ago. However, I've had nothing but problems with the one I finally bought. :( See my thread about these problems. As I say in post #33, I'm wondering if this wasn't "a gun too far." Assuming Springfield makes everything right, it will still take quite a while before I have warm fuzzies about 1911's.

I have had nothing but good luck with Glocks. Everyone complains about the grips, but a Glock fits my hands perfectly. I also love the way old Smith&Wesson revolvers handle. I know that's a strange combination, but there it is: tupperware and wheel guns. I'm thinking I should stick with these two platforms, exclusively. I was hoping to add the historic and beautiful 1911 to the mix, but it may not be meant to be for me.

Time will tell.

------

Let me add that I've been studying some of the intricacies of firearm design, and it amazes me that any of them work as well as they do... initially it all seems simple, but the more I study the more complicated things get, and there are so many fine details that have to be tuned exactly correctly. Tiny fractions of an inch make a huge difference, strengths of springs have to be just right, spin rates of rifling, bullet mass and shape, powder charges, burn rates, materials properties, surface smoothness...

Revolvers are not any simpler, either... it's just a different flavor of complicated. There's major Voodoo going on to make them work too.

Anyone that tells you guns are simple hasn't written any equations or gotten their hands dirty trying to fix anything.

kyletx1911
February 12, 2012, 04:09 AM
I own 3 so called bottom tier 1911s rock islands, a used gi that has well over 6500rds in it had some ftf issues, put wolfs in, no more problems.
A new fs tac, ran all 500 break in rds, in one sitting,
Nary a problem, just got another tac have only
250 in it but going to finish up on that one soon.
Mine like to run wet, if it gets a little gummy i wipe it
Oil it and keep moving.
I cant speak for anyone else but wouldnt
Have anything else
Could you have been limp wristing too?

heidad01
February 12, 2012, 05:37 AM
I have never owned nor seen any clean and well lubricated 1911 or for that matter any pistol that had any problems. There is also such a thing as a lemon. It happens in a $100k mercedes or BMW so what do you expect of a 600 to $3000 gun? The rentals at the range are dirty, abused and no representative of any model or brand, excet for looks and feel of holding them. I can't even imagin why one would want to shoot several 1000s rounds without cleaning a gun. :eek: I consider that to be abuse of equipment. even if you are in battle and shooting all day everday!, you always will have a few minutes a day to clean your gun. It goes with the territory. If it does not function flawlessly (rare anyway) with a newly designed brand of ammo, so what. do not use that ammo. What should you do when the dog throws up evey time you feed him kibbles and bits? stop feeding him kibbles and bits and the problem is solved. :rolleyes:

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 08:27 AM
It's not the design. It's the (present day) execution of the design that's killin' the 1911.

During the field trials, the pistol was fired 6,000 times, stopping every thousand rounds to field strip, clean, and oil. When it got too hot, it was dunked into a bucket of water...shaken...and firing continued. No failures to function and no broken parts.

For the second phase, ammunition was deliberately damaged. Bullets seated deep into the case...crushed with pliers...corroded with acid. No failures to feed or function were noted.

During WW2, a small shipment of Ithaca pistols were found to have had the parkerizing applied after the feed ramps were cut. The inspectors caught it and were ready to return the guns for repair, when someone suggested test-firing them see if it would cause a problem. One in ten was randomly chosen and test-fired. No failures to feed were noted. The test was repeated with the same results. The shipment was entered into inventory and the matter was forgotten. There were no reports of any problems with the pistols.

Ever seen how rough new parkerizing is? Kinda shoots a hole in the assumption that the feed ramp has to be mirror-polished, no?

The reports of loose, inaccurate pistols is overblown and exaggerated. It likely came from badly worn pistols. Most of them would shoot into 4 inches at 50 yards with issue ball ammo...when they were new.

Most feed problems with the 1911 can be traced straight back to the magazine. Many of the others are the result of oversprung slides and bad extractors...either in the dimensions or the material that they're made of. There was a time that you could open a new extractor, stick it in the gun and go. Occasionally, one had to be slightly bent for tension. For the most part, the bend was already applied, as per the blueprint requirement. Now that the slide specs are all over the map, they have to be fitted and "tuned" before they'll work as intended. Because improper magazines are being marketed, they lose tension and break because the magazines allow the feeding round to "jump the lips" and execute a push feed with the claw being forced to climb over the rim.

If the gun is built to spec, it'll run, and it'll run under some amazingly bad conditions. Dirty or clean. Dry or oiled. Limp-wristed or gripped hard. Upside down, sideways, and every position in between. It'll run. I've proven that point too many times to count.

larryh1108
February 12, 2012, 10:17 AM
If someone does not want a 1911, for whatever reason, that's fine. There are plenty of other choices out there. For anyone to say the 1911 is an unreliable gun (blanket statement) then they don't understand the platform. It's not for everybody but those that embrace the platform and know how to maintain the 1911 then they get to enjoy what may be the best semi-auto ever designed (IMO). Everyone else can choose whatever flips their switch. There is no one gun that everybody embraces.

EddieNFL
February 12, 2012, 10:44 AM
There is no one gun that everybody embraces.

Based on the comments I see here the High Point is probably the only one that comes close to that. I'm sure if I ever saw one, I would empty my safe to own it.

Guillermo
February 12, 2012, 11:29 AM
I've proven that point too many times to count.

John,

Understand that I am not arguing that such is not the case.

Only reporting my experience.

Surely would have been different if I lived in North Carolina and had you as my gunsmith.

Nicky Santoro
February 12, 2012, 11:33 AM
OP,
It might be a bit premature to judge all 1911s by a filthy range rental which may not have seen lubrication since God was a boy and using some "local" ammo of unknown quality.

LeonCarr
February 12, 2012, 11:34 AM
Same here, I am not trying to start arguments just stating that my experiences with the current 1911s show that it is not as reliable as more modern designs.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

larryh1108
February 12, 2012, 11:40 AM
Based on the comments I see here the High Point is probably the only one that comes close to that. I'm sure if I ever saw one, I would empty my safe to own it.

Safe or piggy bank?

Zach S
February 12, 2012, 11:46 AM
Did anybody look at the advertised velocity on that ammo - 735fps - more than 15% slower than standard 230gr ball.
Like I said, -p...

Sure makes for a soft shooting pistol though.

Winkman822
February 12, 2012, 12:04 PM
I've had many 1911s over the past few years and most of them were fantastic peices. Over the years I've had a Kimber Eclipse Target II (which was a total dog with the factory magazines and occasionally had issues with the Series II savety); a Kimber Royal II (same as the Eclipse); a Kimber Desert Warrior (functioned very well, but had a thumb safety break on it after only 400 or 500 rounds); a Springfield Armory TRP (superb gun that's never had so much as a hiccup and one that I still carry); a Springfield MC Operator (again an outstanding gun that's never had a hiccup); a Springfield EMP 9mm (another boringly reliable and accurate 1911 from Springfield); a Springfield Loaded Target (same as with all the other Springfields, stupidly, boringly accurate and dependable); a Colt CCO (never had a malfunction with but the trigger did have a touch of bounce and overtravel in it), and then there's the king daddy of all of my 1911s, my current go to carry gun, a Wilson Combat CQB Compact. The Wilson is everything that the Springfield 1911s have been and more.

As far as the OP's negative experience with the rental 1911, I'd chalk it up to to the gun being improperly maintained and possibly a bad mag. I've run my Wilson CQB for a good 700 rounds with no cleaning and when it seemed that the gun's cycling started to slow down a touch, a couple drops of oil took care of everything and I was back to shooting...and my CQB is by far THE most tightly fit handgun I own and I have a number o them. From the OP it sounds like the gun was very badly maintained and probably in need of some replacement to the wear and tear parts like the recoil spring and mainspring, and maybe the mag was in need of a rebuild as well.

As for the control layout, it may take a little getting used to sweeping the thumb safety off, but once you're used to it, it takes no time at all to accomplish this while drawing and presenting the gun from a holster. In terms of the slide release being a little farther away, you could always use your support hand's thumb to operate the slide release or get an extended slide release from Ed Brown or Wilson Combat...just be patient in fitting it and be sure that it operates as it is supposed to before putting it to use on a carry or competition gun.

Bottom line, give the 1911 another try before completely writing it off.

buckhorn_cortez
February 12, 2012, 12:23 PM
I'm with 1911 Tuner on this one. I have six 1911's and they all work flawlessly. I keep them PM'd properly including springs and magazines - they always run.

Ran one to 2K rounds without cleaning or lubing just for my information - was running fine at the end of the 2k. But, I grease the sliding parts instead of oil.

A properly manufactured and maintained 1911 runs - has nothing to do whether it is tight or loose or the temperature, or phase of the moon. It's a machine, if it's been designed, manufactured, and assembled properly it has to run, it has no choice in the matter.

I just don't find Glocks to be the answer to every firearms query unlike the Internet echo chamber. In fact, I don't own any. I have polymer pistols from: SIG, HK, FN, S&W, and Springfield (XDm) and never have problems with any of these guns. I guess I'm just "lucky" - or, I keep them maintained correctly - your choice.

For reference, I change the oil in my vehicles before the indicator light comes on too.

JDGray
February 12, 2012, 12:38 PM
Did anybody look at the advertised velocity on that ammo - 735fps - more than 15% slower than standard 230gr ball. Combine that with a dry dirty rental gun and you've got a recipe for for failures.


My handloads also run that velocity(3.9gr Clays, 230gr FMJ) My SC Commander would barely cycle it, clean. The Recoil spring on that pistol was far heavier than any 45 I've seen, and coupled with a filty gun, could very well be the problem.

rferizano
February 12, 2012, 01:01 PM
It's not the design. It's the (present day) execution of the design that's killin' the 1911.

During the field trials, the pistol was fired 6,000 times, stopping every thousand rounds to field strip, clean, and oil. When it got too hot, it was dunked into a bucket of water...shaken...and firing continued. No failures to function and no broken parts.

For the second phase, ammunition was deliberately damaged. Bullets seated deep into the case...crushed with pliers...corroded with acid. No failures to feed or function were noted.

During WW2, a small shipment of Ithaca pistols were found to have had the parkerizing applied after the feed ramps were cut. The inspectors caught it and were ready to return the guns for repair, when someone suggested test-firing them see if it would cause a problem. One in ten was randomly chosen and test-fired. No failures to feed were noted. The test was repeated with the same results. The shipment was entered into inventory and the matter was forgotten. There were no reports of any problems with the pistols.

Ever seen how rough new parkerizing is? Kinda shoots a hole in the assumption that the feed ramp has to be mirror-polished, no?

The reports of loose, inaccurate pistols is overblown and exaggerated. It likely came from badly worn pistols. Most of them would shoot into 4 inches at 50 yards with issue ball ammo...when they were new.

Most feed problems with the 1911 can be traced straight back to the magazine. Many of the others are the result of oversprung slides and bad extractors...either in the dimensions or the material that they're made of. There was a time that you could open a new extractor, stick it in the gun and go. Occasionally, one had to be slightly bent for tension. For the most part, the bend was already applied, as per the blueprint requirement. Now that the slide specs are all over the map, they have to be fitted and "tuned" before they'll work as intended. Because improper magazines are being marketed, they lose tension and break because the magazines allow the feeding round to "jump the lips" and execute a push feed with the claw being forced to climb over the rim.

If the gun is built to spec, it'll run, and it'll run under some amazingly bad conditions. Dirty or clean. Dry or oiled. Limp-wristed or gripped hard. Upside down, sideways, and every position in between. It'll run. I've proven that point too many times to count.
ANY 1911 Pistol, made by any manufacture at anytime is only a piece of Military Junk today and can not hold a candle to a Glock 21, 30, or 36. My 36 is lighter, thinner, has less parts and can do anything a 1911 can do and better too. It will shoot any brand of ammo, including Tula Steel Case and any make hollow point RELIABLY and without failure. Just name one 1911 that can do that out of the box there champ!

rferizano
February 12, 2012, 01:38 PM
It's not the design. It's the (present day) execution of the design that's killin' the 1911.

During the field trials, the pistol was fired 6,000 times, stopping every thousand rounds to field strip, clean, and oil. When it got too hot, it was dunked into a bucket of water...shaken...and firing continued. No failures to function and no broken parts.

For the second phase, ammunition was deliberately damaged. Bullets seated deep into the case...crushed with pliers...corroded with acid. No failures to feed or function were noted.

During WW2, a small shipment of Ithaca pistols were found to have had the parkerizing applied after the feed ramps were cut. The inspectors caught it and were ready to return the guns for repair, when someone suggested test-firing them see if it would cause a problem. One in ten was randomly chosen and test-fired. No failures to feed were noted. The test was repeated with the same results. The shipment was entered into inventory and the matter was forgotten. There were no reports of any problems with the pistols.

Ever seen how rough new parkerizing is? Kinda shoots a hole in the assumption that the feed ramp has to be mirror-polished, no?

The reports of loose, inaccurate pistols is overblown and exaggerated. It likely came from badly worn pistols. Most of them would shoot into 4 inches at 50 yards with issue ball ammo...when they were new.

Most feed problems with the 1911 can be traced straight back to the magazine. Many of the others are the result of oversprung slides and bad extractors...either in the dimensions or the material that they're made of. There was a time that you could open a new extractor, stick it in the gun and go. Occasionally, one had to be slightly bent for tension. For the most part, the bend was already applied, as per the blueprint requirement. Now that the slide specs are all over the map, they have to be fitted and "tuned" before they'll work as intended. Because improper magazines are being marketed, they lose tension and break because the magazines allow the feeding round to "jump the lips" and execute a push feed with the claw being forced to climb over the rim.

If the gun is built to spec, it'll run, and it'll run under some amazingly bad conditions. Dirty or clean. Dry or oiled. Limp-wristed or gripped hard. Upside down, sideways, and every position in between. It'll run. I've proven that point too many times to count.
While you are blocking my posts just remember that Glocks don't need Tuners or Tuning and more than me know it.

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 01:53 PM
I just don't find Glocks to be the answer to every firearms query unlike the Internet echo chamber.

The Glock is a solid pistol, and it fills a good sized niche...but what a good many of the raving fan boys don't seem to understand is that John Browning's fingerprints are all over it.

The basic system is all 1911, with a little High Power thrown in...which was esigned by Dieudonne Saive, using Browning's tilt barrel/short recoil system after Browning died and the patents expired.

I sometimes hear the question: "What would JMB think of the Glock?"

I answer: "He'd like it just fine. Why wouldn't he? He designed most of it."

rferizano
February 12, 2012, 04:00 PM
The Glock is a solid pistol, and it fills a good sized niche...but what a good many of the raving fan boys don't seem to understand is that John Browning's fingerprints are all over it.

The basic system is all 1911, with a little High Power thrown in...which was esigned by Dieudonne Saive, using Browning's tilt barrel/short recoil system after Browning died and the patents expired.

I sometimes hear the question: "What would JMB think of the Glock?"

I answer: "He'd like it just fine. Why wouldn't he? He designed most of it."
Hey mister expert. John Browning wasn't even alive when the Belgians designed the Browning Hi Power. Gaston Glock did not use a single Browning design in his design. He purposely avoided them all to make a pistol FREE from all the Browning Design Flaws like split feed ramps, Barrel inks and those stupid staked on plunger tubes and ejectors! Get an education please. They also don't need any tuning and work with outstanding reliability out of the box thus rendering your service USELESS! Gaston Glock FIXED all of Browning mistakes and now makes America's Gun. Read a book please and get educated and not just blindly opinionated. Albert Einstein defined INSANITY as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different out come every time. The 1911 is MILITARY SCRAP AND JUNK. End of story!

rferizano
February 12, 2012, 04:12 PM
The Glock is a solid pistol, and it fills a good sized niche...but what a good many of the raving fan boys don't seem to understand is that John Browning's fingerprints are all over it.

The basic system is all 1911, with a little High Power thrown in...which was esigned by Dieudonne Saive, using Browning's tilt barrel/short recoil system after Browning died and the patents expired.

I sometimes hear the question: "What would JMB think of the Glock?"

I answer: "He'd like it just fine. Why wouldn't he? He designed most of it."
It has been well established that this is an ANTI GLOCK and HATE GLOCK Website and Glock users will get pitched off for not kissing the ass of the 1911 crowd. They are cowards and won't even let my posts show to the general public. Narrow Minded Morons run this site. They even made you a moderator. That just about says it all. The Great Carolina 1911 Tuner and Gun Guru that don't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

TexAg
February 12, 2012, 04:16 PM
1911Tuner, you may have answered this before, but I have the utmost respect for you on all matters 1911 and I would love to know which manufacturers do the 1911 correctly in your opinion.
Also, I hope you know you could sell 1911Tuner inspected or approved guns and make a killing!

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 04:33 PM
Let's look at how much of Gaston's Toy was inspired by Browning's designs.

Tilt barrel....Check.

Locking/recoil lug on top of barrel...Check

Recoil/action spring under the barrel...Check.

Front slide dismount...Check.

Side mount magazine catch...Check.

Striker-fired...Check (Grande Rendement)

Double column/single feed position magazine....Check. (Grande Rendement)

Spring-driven, pivoting external extractor...Check. (M1903 Colt)

And let's not forget Dieudonne's ideas on the High Power.

Linkless lower barrel lug with cross member to cam the barrel up and down...Check.

Gaston's task was pretty easy. All the hard stuff had already been done. He did away with multiple upper barrel lugs to make it simpler/cheaper/easier...but in order to provide the necessary surface area for breech strength, he had to use a slide that resembles a brick. It worked well enough, but it lacks in aesthetic appeal, balance, and plain svelte.

Of course, Saive had to wait until Browning's patents...owned by Colt...expired before he could utilize the Colt-Browning tilt barrel short recoil design in the P35, but that was the plan all along. Browning himself couldn't use any of those things because he'd sold the patent rights to Colt several years earlier.

The more things change, the more they remain the same, it seems.

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 04:35 PM
Tex...it's so hit and miss, I really can't pick one and tell you that this is the one. Colt seems to be the most consistent.

Guillermo
February 12, 2012, 04:49 PM
Let's look at how much of Gaston's Toy was inspired by Browning's designs.

That was a very great post!!!

Should be a sticky.

Nice job John!!!

Certaindeaf
February 12, 2012, 04:52 PM
A Browning Hi-Power hardly don't do no drama.. 100 countries have used/use it and pretty much goes pow. Simple times.

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 05:27 PM
A Browning Hi-Power hardly don't do no drama.. 100 countries have used/use it and pretty much goes pow.

Yep. They were all built to spec, and because everybody and his half-brother hasn't jumped into the market with a High Power clone or variant...they don't give problems.

If they'd just stuck to the specs that faithfully on the 1911, this thread would have never manifested.

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 05:36 PM
Should be a sticky.

If we did that, the Glockers would burst into flames. I pointed all that stuff out to one such fella and told him that if he'd spend a few minutes lookin' at the two pistols side by side, he'd see John Moses' fingerprints all over that grand, new innovation of his.

I swear...I thought I was gonna hafta fight him before I could get out the door.

They're in deep denial on these points.

Certaindeaf
February 12, 2012, 05:37 PM
^
You preached it, brother.

jon_in_wv
February 12, 2012, 05:41 PM
I have to take it with a grain of salt when someone says, "I have x number of 1911's and ALL of them have been 100% reliable." Really, I can say the same about all the guns in my safe. They haven't been shot more than a couple hundred rounds each and many of them haven't been fired at all so they don't get a chance to malfunction. My M&P, on the other hand gets a regular diet of 100+ rounds per week. I have well over 8000 rounds through it without a hiccup. There is a HUGE difference between saying it is reliable, and my safe guns are reliable. If you are going to make the claims if might be informative to let us know about how many rounds its fired rather than an empty, blanket statement of reliability.

jon_in_wv
February 12, 2012, 05:46 PM
1911Tuner, try telling a Glocker that Herr Glock didn't invent polymer, polygonal rifling, or a trigger safety. I had one Glock "armorer" who was bragging how the Glock is better than other pistols because it was only 35 parts. I told him that wasn't true and even showed him a diagram of the parts and he STILL denied it.
I understand being a fan of a paticular design or brand and I have TRIED to get on the 1911 bandwagon but I've just had too many negative experiences with them that I didn't get from other brands or types of pistols. If I had a choice to grab a Glock or a 1911 to defend myself with I'll take the Glock every time and I don't even like Glocks. BUT I've never had a problem with one either.

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 05:54 PM
If you are going to make the claims if might be informative to let us know about how many rounds its fired rather than an empty, blanket statement of reliability.

In case that was for me...okay.

A pair of "Billboard" 91A1 Colts bought just for range beater duty that have collectively seen close to 400,000 rounds about evenly split. I can't remember the last time that I had a malfunction in either of them. No "super-secret" super-tunin' tricks on either of them. I've had about a dozen malfunctions with both, most attributable to my funky reloads with my own cast bullets. One never malfunctioned until about a year ago, and it was filthy at the time.

Both plunger tubes got loose about 5 years ago, and were restaked. No further problems.

A NRM Colt bought in '01...also a range beater...saw about 30,000 rounds. No broken parts and one malfunction that resulted from a broken slidestop at the tip. The gun didn't stop, but it did fail to lock the slide on empty. I had a little trouble with the OEM extractor not holding tension...but it was one of Colt's experiments with MIM extrators. Replaced with a Wilson HD and have had no more problems.

I have original/correct USGI pistols from four of the five WW2 contractors that'll function with hollowpoints and even the H&G #68 lead SWC as reliably as ball...and they'll do it from the original "Hardball" magazines. I admit that I haven't run tens of thousands of rounds through those pistols...but the evidence is strong.

rferizano
February 12, 2012, 06:02 PM
In case that was for me...okay.

A pair of "Billboard" 91A1 Colts bought just for range beater duty that have collectively seen close to 400,000 rounds about evenly split. I can't remember the last time that I had a malfunction in either of them. No "super-secret" super-tunin' tricks on either of them. I've had about a dozen malfunctions with both, most attributable to my funky reloads with my own cast bullets. One never malfunctioned until about a year ago, and it was filthy at the time.

Both plunger tubes got loose about 5 years ago, and were restaked. No further problems.

A NRM Colt bought in '01...also a range beater...saw about 30,000 rounds. No broken parts and one malfunction that resulted from a broken slidestop at the tip. The gun didn't stop, but it did fail to lock the slide on empty. I had a little trouble with the OEM extractor not holding tension...but it was one of Colt's experiments with MIM extrators. Replaced with a Wilson HD and have had no more problems.

I have original/correct USGI pistols from four of the five WW2 contractors that'll function with hollowpoints and even the H&G #68 lead SWC as reliably as ball...and they'll do it from the original "Hardball" magazines. I admit that I haven't run tens of thousands of rounds through those pistols...but the evidence is strong.
You are an uneducated blowhard who likes military junk.......BIG DEAL. Glock rules the world little man! Glock has sold more pistols than all the 1911's ever made and junked in the world. Stop the Glock bashing!:barf:

rferizano
February 12, 2012, 06:10 PM
Here you go little man. I know you can't read so look at the pictures!

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1444124757001/the-rise-of-the-glock/?playlist_id=86856&intcmp=obnetwork

JRH6856
February 12, 2012, 06:14 PM
My only real problem with Glocks is that they just don't point naturally for me. I have to practice regularly and dryfire everyday to keep from shooting high on the first shot and being able to recover the target. And if I pick up a naturally pointing gun, it all goes out the window. And I enjoy shooting too much to limit myself to one design.

The 1911 and High Power point naturally. With them, if the gun does its part, I know I can do mine. i can't say that about a Glock.

spm
February 12, 2012, 06:19 PM
1911Tuner. Given your statement so many people have been trying to outsmart John Browning, which I agree with, is there a 1911 that you would recommend? Think range and conceal carry. Would you stay with a Colt, since that is the original or is there a clone out there that is as good or better? And is there such a thing for under $1,000?

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 06:28 PM
spm...If I were in the market for a carry pistol, and I wanted a 1911 or variant...I think I'd search around for one of Colt's WW1 or WW2 repros.

Right now, I've got three pistols in the carry rotation. A stock Norinco....An early stock Springfield 1911A1..and a pre-Series 80 Electroless Nickel Combat Commander that I installed a Kart barrel in and upgraded with USGI thumb safety...modified grip safety...and slidestop. My SOP small radius EGW firing pin stop, of course. Everything else is bone stock...and no...it doesn't have an 18-pound spring in it. Colt never used one that stiff. Why would I?

rferizano
February 12, 2012, 08:17 PM
spm...If I were in the market for a carry pistol, and I wanted a 1911 or variant...I think I'd search around for one of Colt's WW1 or WW2 repros.

Right now, I've got three pistols in the carry rotation. A stock Norinco....An early stock Springfield 1911A1..and a pre-Series 80 Electroless Nickel Combat Commander that I installed a Kart barrel in and upgraded with USGI thumb safety...modified grip safety...and slidestop. My SOP small radius EGW firing pin stop, of course. Everything else is bone stock...and no...it doesn't have an 18-pound spring in it. Colt never used one that stiff. Why would I?
Does someone want to tell the TUNER 1911 expert that it was Remington Rand who made the largest amount of military 1911 junk.

Now for $500.00 you can by a Glock 36 that will shoot ANYTHING out of the box including hollow points and not need one single bit of tuning. It is also lighter to carry and thinner than a 1911 and smaller and will shoot rings around 1911 military junk

Art Eatman
February 12, 2012, 08:32 PM
I've no experience with the Johnny-come-lately brands of 1911s. I've meddled around with a couple of dozen older critters, Series 70 and earlier. GI and civilian. When I say early, I include a couple of 1912s. At the moment all I have is a LW Commander which is all worked over as a carry gun, and a Heinz 57 Colt that I've worked over for IPSC-style shooting (But it's not at all a "race gun").

I've never had any sort of failure that in any way was inherent in the design or manufacture. Heck, I couldn't even mess 'em up in any exploratory tweaking! :D

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 09:17 PM
Neither have I, Art. Among my modest collection are three Rands...the Union Switch twins...an Ithaca...four Colts including a 1919 dated Black Army and a 1913 Commercial Government Model...and one each 1942 and '43 production. None of'em have been super tweaked beyond setting tension on the 1919's extrator, and new springs in all of'em. They all work just fine, and feed hollowpoints like a house afire.

Here's the 1919 Colt. One of the Rands is on the table.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/Colt.jpg

1911Tuner
February 12, 2012, 09:18 PM
And here's that Rand. August 9145 production and probably never issued. It's 98% easily.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/45RR.jpg

Pilot
February 12, 2012, 10:14 PM
I have to echo Tuner's sentiments on the basic Colts. I picked up a couple of the 01918 Black Oxide WWI Repros right near the end of their production run. All I can say is wow! Not only are the beautiful, but the one I shoot is flawless. (I'm keeping one NIB) It is very accurate and feeds anything, including my 200 grain LSWC reloads.

What I really like about the basic Colts, (WWI, WWII Repros, S70 Repro, and Government Model) is the lack of any superfluous stuff that takes away from the original spirit of the 1911. No front slide serrations, no beavertails, spur hammers, etc. Everything you need, and nothing you don't. Plus they WORK.

My other 1911, a Springfield Milspec has been flawless from the day I bouight it in 1993. Keep it simple!

jon_in_wv
February 12, 2012, 10:20 PM
1911Tuner, I wasn't referring to you on the round count comment. I've read enough of your posts to take what you say at face value. I also know that with your knowledge of the 1911 you are able to keep yours tuned and working where I might not.

rferizano
February 12, 2012, 10:39 PM
What 1911 knowledge. No formal training he just plays with them at the kitchen table. I wish I had him in Vietnam to teach the real world training for the 1911 POS.

Skylerbone
February 12, 2012, 11:00 PM
Speaking to the OP, none of us can say with certainty whether the failures you experienced were a manifestation of that pistol, weak springs, dirt or low velocity ammo. My particular sentiment on S&Ws is that their older series SW1911s were a fine variant that in general were as reliable as anything made. There were a few parts know to need service at given intervals and some I have heard horror stories on. I have a new production S&W that has been 100% through nearly 1,000 rounds shooting mostly RNFP and HP and will cycle empties (so far every time). I don't as a general rule attempt to punish my firearms but I can say I've put 350 rounds through it in an afternoon without stopping to clean or lube and just a light oiling from the previous range trip.

I've heard plenty of Glock stories, watched plenty of stupid Glock torture videos and listened to people swear it's the only firearm that will ever work in xyz conditions. Well from Japan to Continental Africa (Sahara included) to Germany, Kuwait and France (yes, firearms do function in France-who knew) the 1911 has seen it all and kicked its rear. If you trust your life to a firearm you must care for it likewise. I wouldn't swear every 1911 manufacturer has things figured out but ask yourself how they sell hundreds of thousands every year if the majority don't function.

If you're looking for near complete reliability in a 1911 it would behoove you to start with a good one and find a reliable smith to do the rest.

Bigkrackers
February 12, 2012, 11:02 PM
The first 1911 I ever bought was a S.A. loaded. I payed $600 for it new. Went to the range and couldn't get through one complete magazine without a FTE or FTF. I was pissed and felt completely let down. Being new to handguns and being my first 1911, I never thought to send it in. I should have. Anyway, bought some Wilson mags, spent $150 at a gun smith then spent $250 later at a reputable gun smith fixing the damage the first one did. In the end, I had the feed ramp polished, ejection port lowered and a gold bead put on the front site. So excluding the bad gun smith I spent about the same amount of money as a H&K USP 45.

It's now a completely reliable gun with thousands of error free rounds through it and I love to shoot it.

In hind site would I have rather just bought the H&K? Yep. But now my 1911 and I have history so its a keeper.

But who wants an H$K when you can get a new Glock for half the price? Well, a mid 2010 gen3 or earlier anyway. So, maybe not new. What the hell, what's Taurus doing these days? :)

rferizano
February 13, 2012, 12:42 AM
And here's that Rand. August 9145 production and probably never issued. It's 98% easily.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/45RR.jpg
Big Frigging deal you own a 1911. That don't make you an expert. You are just an overbearing blowhard that don't know **** about 1911's.

ArthurDent
February 13, 2012, 01:02 AM
Let's look at how much of Gaston's Toy was inspired by Browning's designs.The Glock ... John Browning's fingerprints are all over it.

The basic system is all 1911Yes, yes, and YES!!!!!

I'm a huge Glock fanboy. I clearly recognize and give homage to the Browning/1911 heritage. There are too many similarities! It's easier to list the few differences:

- Polymer/Tenifer vs Steel
- Striker vs Hammer
- Locking block vs Link
- No barrel bushing
- Captive slide spring
- No grip safety / no thumb safety / added trigger "safety"
- Firing pin block (also on some newer 1911's)
- some crazy "cruciform" thingy vs an actual sear
- various "aesthetic" changes
- the infamous grip-angle difference

But the basic system is remarkably similar... Just about all modern pistols copy heavily from the original master.

1911Tuner
February 13, 2012, 07:13 AM
Locking block vs Link

Small point...

Neither the block...which traces back to the High Power...nor the link "lock" either pistol.

The block cams the barrel in and out of the slide vertically. With the 1911, the lower barrel lug cams it up, and the link brings it down. While there are a good many 1911 barrels that ride the link and stand on it, that's not its function. The only function that it has is vertically disengaging the barrel. The lock occurs horizontally, when the gun fires...with the lugs in opposition/shear.

The firing pin block idea first appeared on the Walther P38, which inspired the system on the Beretta 92/M9 series. Go look at both and see what you come up with.

EatnBullets
February 13, 2012, 09:16 AM
You get what you pay for. If you want a 1911 go for it. It is not like a newer weapon. It requires more maintenance and parts on hand. It is as reliable as you make it. I recommend if you want one buy a cheep one shoot it. If you like it bring it up slowly a few bucks at a time. If ammo is an issue rock island has a 9mm version. It's about 450 msrp. Me I love the 1911 but I won't carry it daily. My edc is ruger sr9. I have had it for 2 years. And 10000 rounds ( I keep a log of rounds fired.) find one that fits you, and carry every day. My back up is a Phoenix arms hp22a range master. I keep the sb on it and use the lb for family to shoot at the range.

W.E.G.
February 13, 2012, 09:21 AM
Look at the bright side.

If it isn't ejecting, at least it isn't bouncing .45 casings off your forehead.

I've had a number of 1911's, and they all bounced casings off my forehead to one degree or another.
Worst one of all was the Colt 70 series.

rferizano
February 13, 2012, 09:34 AM
Small point...

Neither the block...which traces back to the High Power...nor the link "lock" either pistol.

The block cams the barrel in and out of the slide vertically. With the 1911, the lower barrel lug cams it up, and the link brings it down. While there are a good many 1911 barrels that ride the link and stand on it, that's not its function. The only function that it has is vertically disengaging the barrel. The lock occurs horizontally, when the gun fires...with the lugs in opposition/shear.

The firing pin block idea first appeared on the Walther P38, which inspired the system on the Beretta 92/M9 series. Go look at both and see what you come up with.
I notice you never mentioned those STUPID staked on parts like the plunger tube and ejector or that stupid position of the main spring in the bottom of the grip that sticks out of the holster and exposes it to the elements for internal rusting of the spring. Glock did not use one damn part of the browning design. Lock breach short stroke was introduced buy Luger before the Mormon had his first ugly wife in Utah. Then there are those absolutely moronic tongue and grove lock up rings on the barrel and slide. Glock eliminated that mistake with simple machining of a square and larger breech opening. Then there is that totally stupid 2 section feed ramp and make next round up feeding unreliable. Gaston solved that by putting the entire feed ramp on the barrel. The 1911 is a total design failure and was scrapped in 1947 by the Joint Chiefs Of Staff.

1911Tuner
February 13, 2012, 09:57 AM
On second thought...never mind. rfer...you leave me no choice. I'm just gonna hafta go unfriend you on facebook. I'm sorry. I know that's harsh, but there are some things that I simply can't abide.

JohnBT
February 13, 2012, 10:30 AM
"Polymer/Tenifer vs Steel"

Um, what do think a Glock slide is made from? It's not Tenifer, that's a metal treatment process.

John

P.S. - I honestly had no idea what a reliably great shooter my blue WWI Repro would be when I bought it. I thought it was just another Colt. ;)

1911Tuner
February 13, 2012, 10:40 AM
John, I've heard several reports of the same. Maybe Colt decided to take a close look at the original blueprints and stick to the specs again. Hopefully, it'll catch on.

ArthurDent
February 13, 2012, 10:57 AM
Locking block vs Link...Small point...Yes, the link shouldn't be part of the locking, but it DOES make the barrel captive to the frame, not free-floating as it is in the Glock. I wasn't quite sure what the correct terminology should be here to get that point across. The 1911 mechanism seems more elegant, but the Glock has fewer parts and it seems simpler, despite the peening on the slide that it causes.

...Tenifer, that's a metal treatment process.Yes, that's true. Metal underneath. But, Mr. Glock's expertise is in materials, and he's quite proud of that treatment and claims it as central to the whole Glock experience.

Now, to try to un-drift the thread ;) ... Any gun can become horribly unreliable if it is badly maintained, or worn out, or if parts are out of spec. (Or... if it's a lemon out of the box like my nightmare experience.) Is it too much to ask to have incredible accuracy AND perfect reliability with sloppy tolerances on everything? I want it ALL ;)

rikman
February 13, 2012, 11:42 AM
I've got 5 1911's....all severely reliable & accurate....Wilson, Springfield ,Baer,Kimber,Sig.


Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

Driftertank
February 13, 2012, 12:03 PM
Got my Kimber Stainless TLE II back in '07. Wanted the thing for years. Saved my pennies (i'm a po' boy) and finally bought one.

Stripped it, cleaned it, lubed it before i ever shot it. Had a lot of the failures to feed described by the OP. Was starting to worry i'd gotten a dog. Did some research. Seems 1911's require a firm grip, like full-power loads, and often take a while to break-in, especially in stainless.
Long story short, today my kimber has several thousand rounds through it, and the only time i get stoppages any more is after a LOT of dirty ammo has gone through it without cleaning.

rikman
February 13, 2012, 12:09 PM
In my experience....I've found these high end tight guns sensitive to magazines . My wilson CQB won't function with WIlson 47D's even though many folks love them. I use the Metalforms that came with the Springfield Professional.

OldCavSoldier
February 13, 2012, 05:18 PM
Dirt + dry = eventually gonna be unreliable............especially with a steel frame/steel slide piece like the COMMANDER LENGTH .45ACP you were shooting.

EddieNFL
February 13, 2012, 08:21 PM
Seems 1911's require a firm grip, like full-power loads, and often take a while to break-in, especially in stainless.

I can only speak for the 15 or so I own or have owned. So far, I've never had to "break-in" a properly built version; I've never been able to get a properly built version to malfunction due to grip; I've shot some real slow loads.

My most recent purchase was a stainless Baer about six months ago. Six-thousand rounds later I'm still waiting (but don't expect) the first malfunction.

JRH6856
February 13, 2012, 08:59 PM
I've never been able to get a properly built version to malfunction due to grip; I've shot some real slow loads.

Try firing those real slow loads while holding the gun between your trigger finger and thumb. :evil: I can usually get at least one FTE that way.

LTR shooter
February 14, 2012, 12:50 AM
I went to one of my local ranges today and fired a 1911 for the first time.

You have to ask yourself if ALL 1911s really function like your range rental why would so many manufacturers want a piece of the action? Why would big names like SIG , Smith & Wesson and Ruger introduce their own 1911s to the market? I would not base my opinion on ALL 1911s as a whole on my first time out with a filthy range rental.

BigMag
February 14, 2012, 01:15 AM
I have a S&W 1911 that runs great. In fact I've been out with it the last three weekends! But a proper cleaning goes a long way!
http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff389/hunterbobby38/2012-02-12_18-42-20_870.jpg

jsimmons
February 15, 2012, 08:58 AM
Causes:

0) A poorly maintained pistol

1) Reload ammo

I have an RIA and a Springfield, and both are superb pistols. I only shoot factory loads (Federal, Monarch, etc). If the 1911 was "really that bad", it wouldn't still be in heavy production oevr 100 years after it was introduced.

vtbluegrass
February 15, 2012, 09:16 AM
I have a fullsize SW1911 and the only failures I have had are when I was doing load development with bunny fart LSWC bullets. Never with factory or any jacketed bullets.

CraigC
February 20, 2012, 11:54 AM
Think about it like this, there are more 1911's and more 1911 manufacturers today than at any other time in its 100yr history. Would people be buying all those guns if they all functioned like your rental? Probably not. I know that I would not own my dead-reliable three from Kimber and Springfield. I'd also love to see a Glock shoot 1" groups at 25yds like my Springfield does.

LeonCarr
February 20, 2012, 04:29 PM
Mr. CraigC,

What had to be done to your Springfield to get it to shoot 1 inch groups and do it reliably?

I have a Glock 17 9mm, bone stock out of the box, that does 1.5 inch groups at 25 yards with Factory Federal 115 JHP or good handloads.

IME very seldom does a new 1911 run reliably out of the box without work. The Glock does.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Skylerbone
February 20, 2012, 06:24 PM
I think it would be a treat to watch some of you guys shoot...one wonders how an aftermarket sprung up from either platform what with all the stock performance.

Ronin6
February 20, 2012, 09:52 PM
This seems to be the norm for 1911's. I've yet to meet someone that hasn't taken theirs to a gunsmith.

larryh1108
February 20, 2012, 10:21 PM
I've yet to meet someone that hasn't taken theirs to a gunsmith.

Don't get around much, huh?

EddieNFL
February 20, 2012, 10:31 PM
I'm tradin' up to a Hi-Point.

Mal H
February 21, 2012, 11:33 AM
I've yet to meet someone that hasn't taken theirs to a gunsmith.
That record is now broken - I have never taken any 1911 to a gunsmith nor have I ever needed to.

Inebriated
February 21, 2012, 12:23 PM
Think about it like this, there are more 1911's and more 1911 manufacturers today than at any other time in its 100yr history. Would people be buying all those guns if they all functioned like your rental? Probably not. I know that I would not own my dead-reliable three from Kimber and Springfield. I'd also love to see a Glock shoot 1" groups at 25yds like my Springfield does.

Springfields run what, $850 and up? Tell you what, you give me the extra $300 you spent on the Springfield to apply to my Glock, and I'll show you 1" at 25 yards.

ExMachina
February 21, 2012, 12:26 PM
Yes. 1911s are very bad.

Now, go boil a Glock :D

hogrdr
February 22, 2012, 10:10 AM
1911's are some of the best and worst guns made. and it doesn't matter about price or brand. my colt defender threw the front sight after a few rounds, had to re-peg it back in. one of my last kimbers had a front sight that got loose in the dovetail. the last cz dan i bought had light firing pin strike problems, a friend just bought an iai that won't feed anything but ball. the good thing, anyone with a whit of machinacal ability can learn to fix or tune one very easily.

kb58
February 22, 2012, 12:38 PM
Could this also be a numbers game? I mean, there's a LOT of 1911s out there, so just because they have "lots of problems" means nothing on its own, it's "problems per unit" that's important. I mean, if there are 10,000,000 1911s vs a million of whatever they're being compared to, unless the 1911s have 10 times the problems, it means they're actually more reliable. Also beware of the vocal minority that complain about problems showing up disproportionately. In general, people complain about 100 times more loudly than when they're happy about the same product, which totally skews the results.

Pilot
February 22, 2012, 12:58 PM
None of my four 1911's have ever been to a gunsmith or back to the factory. :confused:

hogrdr
February 22, 2012, 02:34 PM
i own 9 right now and have owned literally hundreds over the years. llama , star, colt, amt ,argintines, kimber,dans, lots of off brands, i have had problems with about 30% of them, minor to major. their like vw beetles or old harleys , if you can't tune and repair them, stay away.

Nicky Santoro
February 22, 2012, 07:53 PM
I've yet to meet someone that hasn't taken theirs to a gunsmith.

You have now.

zignal_zero
February 22, 2012, 08:01 PM
this might sound like buffalo butt mud, but is really isn't -

1911's i've ownded:
Series 70 Colt Gold Cup
Series 80 Colt Gold Cup
Series 80 Colt Delta Elite
Taurus PT1911AR

the ONLY malfunctions EVERY experienced out of ANY of them was the series 80 Gold Cup. it would encounter a few stoppages, here and there, from the time it was brand new until it had 50+ rounds through it. after that, it ran like a crackhead from the popo. keep in mind, i took it out of the box, BRAND NEW, never cleaned or oiled it just loaded it and started blasting :D (i'm older and smarter than that now)

EddieNFL
February 22, 2012, 08:01 PM
and it doesn't matter about price or brand.

I'm impressed with your level of experience. Wish I could say I've owned or fired at least one sample from every maker in the world.

19&41
February 22, 2012, 08:02 PM
I bought a box of Atlanta Arms and Ammo .45 when I had forgotten ammo for my 1911A1. I have never shot such dirty ammo and I have shot lots of mil-surp and Russian ammo. It was so bad, I was having malfunctions in the last 2 magazines out of the box. The residue was like coal dust.

Chuck R.
February 22, 2012, 08:50 PM
Well, this guy seems to think so:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfJj90eNIfE&feature=youtu.be

IF you've got a few minutes its an interesting perspective and echoes some of the sentiment I've read here.

Chuck

Casefull
February 22, 2012, 10:21 PM
I would love to see all you glock guys actually shoot a group, let alone 1 inch. Lots of hard talk on the internet. BTW I love my glock 20...if it only had an aluminum frame instead of that cheap plastic with cartoon like metal slides attached to the plastic. Glock clips are wonderful though. Everyone could take a lesson from those. The magazines are one of the reasons glocks are considered reliable and usually the reason folks have troubles once in a while with 1911's.

hogrdr
February 23, 2012, 03:57 PM
eddienfl...
well there he is, theres at least one on every board! someone who doesn't know you from adam calling you out. i have been collecting, shooting, trading, for 36 years, load my own ammo and make my own holsters. i tune and repair my autos and revolvers, and those of friends, if i say something its from personal experience. how many 1911's have YOU owned? how many do you own now?

LTR shooter
February 23, 2012, 06:21 PM
IME very seldom does a new 1911 run reliably out of the box without work. The Glock does.



Sounds like the proverbial "crock of manure" to me. The 1911s I've owned were very reliable without any work. My 1988 Springfield shot my lead semi-wadcutter reloads reliable without work.

I would love to see all you glock guys actually shoot a group, let alone 1 inch. Lots of hard talk on the internet.

Yep , shooter at my range proclaims "You can't beat Glock" , and proceeds to fire what resembles a shotgun pattern on the target. Hmm.. I could beat that with any handgun I own. A lot of Glock boasting but never anything to show is the norm where I shoot.

Springfields run what, $850 and up? .

First of all the reason a Glock is so much less is that it is extremely inexpensive to produce to begin with. A lot of plastic and steel stampings. Very little machining as compared to a 1911 or any other pistol that utilizes metal vs plastic.

Tell you what, you give me the extra $300 you spent on the Springfield to apply to my Glock, and I'll show you 1" at 25 yards

The best chance to shoot the 1" would most likely be to spend the $300 on a used Ruger MKII pistol.;)

EddieNFL
February 23, 2012, 08:04 PM
eddienfl...
well there he is, theres at least one on every board! someone who doesn't know you from adam calling you out. i have been collecting, shooting, trading, for 36 years, load my own ammo and make my own holsters. i tune and repair my autos and revolvers, and those of friends, if i say something its from personal experience. how many 1911's have YOU owned? how many do you own now?
Maybe 25 or 30 over the years. Probably a dozen on hand.

Been shootin' since 1966, tradin' and loading ammo since the early '70s. I've taken 1911s to smiths; with the exception of one particular Kimber all were high mileage...

So, we're back to you said, I said.

hogrdr
February 23, 2012, 08:36 PM
how about you don't comment on my post's and i won't comment on yours.

EddieNFL
February 24, 2012, 07:47 PM
how about you don't comment on my post's and i won't comment on yours.
How 'bout you don't post anything you don't want questioned?

allaroundhunter
February 24, 2012, 08:00 PM
Glock = a little better than "combat accurate"

1911 = Bullseye competition accurate

exavid
February 24, 2012, 08:26 PM
I really can't compare the two guns and have shot only two 1911s. One was in the Army and the other was a Colt Government I bought in 1964 for $60. Both shot reliably and were reasonably accurate, neither were target pistols just Uncle Sugar's standard issue. As far as I know the .45 I was issued didn't get any service by our company armorer. The one I owned was pretty well used but as far as I know neither the guy I bought it from or I had to repair or take it to a gunsmith. They were reliable pistols. I didn't keep mine very long, I was living in NW Alaska and usually carried a S&W model 29. So at least these two workaday guns, the Army's and mine were reliable shooters and not often needing tinkering. I assume the Glocks are also a reliable pistol or they wouldn't be so popular. Interestingly enough Glocks were deliberately over priced when they were introduced in the US so that people wouldn't think they were 'cheap' guns.

gym
June 4, 2012, 01:47 AM
Two different animals, I prefer to fire a 1911, it is a precisiong instrument if you spend the money and go for a good 1,500 dollar Springfield or Colt. There is nothing like a trigger on a high end 1911, and we sure would not have kept them around all these years if they didn't work. If you buy a cheap "anything" it's going to malfunction. Glocks, MP's, Fn's are great i have been carrying Glocks since they came to this country, I carry one now, but it's because of weight and capacity, and reliability out of the box. They are not a 5,000 dollar wilson supergrade.They will shoot the pants off any glock or poly gun.
A 400 dollar 1911 is asking for problems, it's the kelteck of 1911's. You get what you pay for.
You learn that after the first 20 years.If you carry a bug, a Glock, nano, ruger, are great as a backup gun, but a TRP, or a Commander is what you reach for when there is real trouble. Your pocket gun should give you time to get to your main carry if something is immediate, you can have a hand on it, if you pocket carry. And nothing is faster than a gun in hand.
Your views will change a hundred times before you get there if you stick with this hobby as a lifestyle. There are just too many similar plastic guns made now. They are all similar at their price point, that's how they sell guns, like cars, keep you wanting the new model.

miles1
June 4, 2012, 06:28 AM
As a 1911 newbie that owns just one 1911 i love the design and feel of an american legend but was concerned it would give me problems(listening to many horror stories) and decided not to get another one at this time.And yes,its due to the gamble the next one i might buy could give me a host of issues that a CZ or Glock or S&W most likely wouldn't.

9mmepiphany
June 4, 2012, 04:26 PM
You shouldn't be afraid of the problems.

Part of the experience of owning a 1911 is learning how it functions and how to keep it functioning. IIRC it was Larry Vickers who said that anyone considering using a 1911 in combat/duty should have the knowledge/skill of a 1911 armorer. At the very least, you should learn to detail strip your 1911

There are a lot of quirks about the 1911 that aren't shared with other platforms. There are also a number of drills that originated with the 1911 which has transitioned to other platforms unquestioned until fairly recently. Learning and sorting through these is also part of the ownership experience.

If you aren't interested enough to be this involved with your 1911, it might not be the optimal choice in a handgun for you

larryh1108
June 4, 2012, 05:50 PM
...but was concerned it would give me problems(listening to many horror stories) and decided not to get another one at this time.And yes,its due to the gamble the next one i might buy could give me a host of issues that a CZ or Glock or S&W most likely wouldn't.

Too bad you read the internet hype instead of listening to the millions of happy 1911 owners. If you consider how many 1911s are sold annually (Kimber alone sells over 75,000 per year) and then consider they've been making them for 100 years and you come to realize they are no worse than any other mainstream gun out there. You're missing out on a wonderful experience. Also, it helps to understand the principles of the 1911 which also helps you understand your other pistols as well.

Skylerbone
June 4, 2012, 07:30 PM
Part of the experience of owning a 1911 is learning how it functions and how to keep it functioning. IIRC it was Larry Vickers who said that anyone considering using a 1911 in combat/duty should have the knowledge/skill of a 1911 armorer. At the very least, you should learn to detail strip your 1911

There are a lot of quirks about the 1911 that aren't shared with other platforms. There are also a number of drills that originated with the 1911 which has transitioned to other platforms unquestioned until fairly recently. Learning and sorting through these is also part of the ownership experience.

If you aren't interested enough to be this involved with your 1911, it might not be the optimal choice in a handgun for you

That is as clear a summary as I can recall reading. The endless arguments about reliability don't very often sway people and never changes the facts. The true downfall of the Glock in terms of reliability is that it teaches many users absolutely nothing about the mechanics of their pistol. Some truly believe it will run forever without failure because it has not failed yet.

miles1
June 5, 2012, 09:18 AM
You shouldn't be afraid of the problems.

Part of the experience of owning a 1911 is learning how it functions and how to keep it functioning. IIRC it was Larry Vickers who said that anyone considering using a 1911 in combat/duty should have the knowledge/skill of a 1911 armorer. At the very least, you should learn to detail strip your 1911

There are a lot of quirks about the 1911 that aren't shared with other platforms. There are also a number of drills that originated with the 1911 which has transitioned to other platforms unquestioned until fairly recently. Learning and sorting through these is also part of the ownership experience.

If you aren't interested enough to be this involved with your 1911, it might not be the optimal choice in a handgun for you
Define "interested"?

miles1
June 5, 2012, 09:22 AM
Too bad you read the internet hype instead of listening to the millions of happy 1911 owners. If you consider how many 1911s are sold annually (Kimber alone sells over 75,000 per year) and then consider they've been making them for 100 years and you come to realize they are no worse than any other mainstream gun out there. You're missing out on a wonderful experience. Also, it helps to understand the principles of the 1911 which also helps you understand your other pistols as well.
Ive shot plenty of 1911's that were great.And have seen several that have FTF or FTE issues.So its not just internet hype.The amount of 1911 clones seems to make a gamble when buying one unless your a certified armorer or pay alot of money for a high priced 1911.IMO

miles1
June 5, 2012, 09:25 AM
That is as clear a summary as I can recall reading. The endless arguments about reliability don't very often sway people and never changes the facts. The true downfall of the Glock in terms of reliability is that it teaches many users absolutely nothing about the mechanics of their pistol. Some truly believe it will run forever without failure because it has not failed yet.
Skylerbone,Honestly tell me that reliability of a handguns isnt one of your top concerns when buying a handgun?.Im sure there's plenty of people that buy ANY handgun and expect with proper care for it to work for a long time.Im not that naive.

Skylerbone
June 5, 2012, 12:57 PM
Reliability is my primary concern and it is addressed in every firearm I own. For clarity, my point is that many a post states "I bought a $300 XYZ 1911 and it has been flawless!" Likewise with Glock owners. "It runs like Glockwork. Never a failure and it likes to run without lubrication or cleaning." Horrendous statements that others take to mean no verification or maintenance necessary. No training, no understanding, easier than a point and shoot camera. IMO the Glock has a better shot at functioning out of the box than a similarly priced 1911 but it isn't a certainty.

Personally, I consider the purchase price of a 1911 as a starting point. I wouldn't holster an $800 1911, let alone a $400 one without verifying critical dimensions and monitoring parts wear over the first several thousand rounds. Things get corrected, reliability testing begins again at zero and when all is as it should be it can join the rotation. Same protocol whether for range blaster or SD. Same for a $4,000 1911 or a $400 1911, never know which may be closest when needed. Always know that a human being subject to error along with multiple machines subject to error created a very dangerous item.

As I read it interest = dedication. If you own it, learn it.

9mmepiphany
June 5, 2012, 09:16 PM
Define "interested"?
In the context in which I used, "aren't interested enough", it meant Don't Want...but dedicated would be a good alternative

orionengnr
June 5, 2012, 10:50 PM
I've owned about 25 1911s through the years.
Several had minor to not-so-minor issues. None of the problems were terminal, and all were solved.
The majority worked just fine.
I carry a 1911 every day--if it were not an accurate, trustworthy pistol I would carry something else.

Certaindeaf
June 6, 2012, 12:53 PM
I bought a box of Atlanta Arms and Ammo .45 when I had forgotten ammo for my 1911A1. I have never shot such dirty ammo and I have shot lots of mil-surp and Russian ammo. It was so bad, I was having malfunctions in the last 2 magazines out of the box. The residue was like coal dust.
I thought that this guy shooting black powder out of his 1911 was pretty cool. There's lots of videos like that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j84J7VQ02CQ&feature=player_detailpage

tomrkba
June 6, 2012, 01:08 PM
I have had this experience with clean, new guns.

HKGuns
June 6, 2012, 06:38 PM
I've yet to meet someone that hasn't taken theirs to a gunsmith.

I think that makes three of us now for your records. If nothing else this thread as been good for populating my ignore list.

To answer your question, no all 1911's are not like that and to use a range gun as a reliability measure is silliness.

TimboKhan
June 6, 2012, 09:07 PM
This was a thread that didn't need to be resuscitated to begin with given that it is just many pages of bickering. CLOSED!

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