Opinions - concealed carry for small female


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ChopChopGirl
February 14, 2012, 10:01 AM
Hello,

I am a new female subscriber who is a shooter and own several guns. I have a female friend who wants a gun to conceal while hiking and running. She is 5ft. 4 inches, and only weighs 106 lbs. Has her heart set on a Beretta Tomcat, and I've advised her of all the cracked frame issues.

The real challenge for someone that tiny as I see it - not much can be concealed easily and she cannot rack the slides with most small guns. I've taken her to shoot the Ruger LCP, the S&W bodyguard and others, and she doesn't like any of them.

The real appeal for her is the tip up barrel on the Tomcat, and I suppose an INOX is a better bet, but clearly not a winner from all I've read here and other places.

Any ideas? I'm about to suggest she get and American Arms .22 MAG -no racking, but no real protection either, or get the Tomcat and pray for success. Thanks, in advance for any advivce on this.

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newbuckeye
February 14, 2012, 10:20 AM
What about a revolver? No slide to rack, very simple to operate (especially when the adrenaline is pumping) There are some pretty small ones like the SW model 36 or 37. With 38+p it packs a wallop and the grips are pretty easy to replace to better fit her hand and cut down on felt recoil. It shouldn't be hard to find someone in your area that has something similar so she can try one on.

jon86
February 14, 2012, 10:24 AM
If she is comfortable with 22 mag, I would suggest that she take a look at a S&W 351C.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_786530_-1_757767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Or if she wants to step up in caliber and weight, to a stainless steel 327 mag, there is the 632 http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766366_-1_757767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

If she can handle a bit of recoil, maybe a ruger LCR 357 or S&W 640 or 649, loaded with 38's might be a better choice. Even a 3 inch model 60 with 38's would be a good candidate to consider.

Certaindeaf
February 14, 2012, 10:26 AM
Snub .38.

Winkman822
February 14, 2012, 10:34 AM
You ought to have her try a Sig P239 and Walter PPS on for size. Both are nice small, slim, lightweight pistols that can be had in 9mm of .40 S&W and they should both be stupid easy to for a smallish person to conceal.

Heck, I'm 5'8" and 125 lbs and have no issues concealing a full size 1911 fitted with a S&A magwell. I've also concealed a USP Compact with no issues.

JTQ
February 14, 2012, 11:15 AM
The Cornered Cat is a good place for info

http://corneredcat.com/

dogmush
February 14, 2012, 11:25 AM
First piece of advice:
http://www.corneredcat.com/

The slide racking can very probably be overcome with technique and practice. A healthy female, even a petite one, can generate the force needed to cycle a slide.

I've found that many of the women that I've taught to shoot, especially the smaller ones, end up hating DA weapons because the longer, heaver trigger takes more practice to master then they're willing to do. In fact my mom is looking to dump her P250 for this very reason. Of course your friend's MMV.

Many of my female friends like small SA or Pre cocked strikers for a combination of small size, easy concealment and easy to learn 6ish lb triggers. Of the pistols that I have been able to lend out, amongst smaller shooters my P238 is a hands down favorite. Small, easy to cycle and shoot, and light recoil (especially when compared to other .380's) Yes it's SA and needs cocked and locked carry and the practice to facilitate that, but it's a joy to shoot.

As always your friend should try as many different types of handguns as she can to find what works for her the best.

And read Kathy's website.

newbuckeye
February 14, 2012, 11:27 AM
As always your friend should try as many different types of handguns as she can to find what works for her the best.

And read Kathy's website.

Best advice so far!

snakeman
February 14, 2012, 11:30 AM
snubby 22 mag would be perfect. No slide to rack, no real recoil, and decent stopping power. It will be loud though.

BCRider
February 14, 2012, 01:40 PM
I've had the chance to help out a fair number of very small asian women that came out for their first ever gun shooting expierience. Once shown how to hold the slide with an overhand four finger and heel of palm hold and to commit to really racking the slide hard they all did well.

The biggest problem was that at first they were afraid to really put any power into racking the slide for fear of breaking the gun. Yep, honestly. When I asked a few of them this is the answer I got the most. And the rest just looked nervous due to it being their first time ever to even hold a real gun.

So get her to read that Cornered Cat website. It really is very good and done from a perspective that is right up her alley. Then get her out and try a bunch of guns at some sort of rental range. And assure her that she's NOT going to break it... :D

Amusing side note: A pair of these very small and light first timers got all giggly and nervous at the idea of shooting a 12Ga shotgun. Someone at the next station was shooting one while I was working them through a 9mm semi. They were shocked at what looked like a crazy gun and all the noise. I told them that I could show them how and it would not hurt them. The reluctantly agreed. By the end of a shared box of target loads they were happy as could be. Two weeks later they came back... For the shotgun... :D

bigfatdave
February 14, 2012, 02:46 PM
So get her to read that Cornered Cat website. It really is very good and done from a perspective that is right up her alley. Then get her out and try a bunch of guns at some sort of rental range.
This.

If there is no rental range, get a bunch of shooters to bring a big pile-o-guns to an informal outdoor range. Hell, if you're near me, I'll open up my range and bring a selection of guns if I can squeeze it into rotating shifts, and I'm sure someone close to you would be willing to help out in a similar way.

webfox
February 14, 2012, 02:53 PM
These aren't cheap, but they're a cool concept:

http://www.511tactical.com/All-Products/Shirts/Undergear-Shirts/Holster-Shirt.html

Basically, a tshirt with pockets under your arms on both sides. One side for your CCW and the other for your MP3 player.

firesky101
February 14, 2012, 03:02 PM
My wife 5'0" and 93lbs loves her LCR. I got her the 357 for the extra weight to soak up recoil, she only shoots .38's through it though. She has the same problem with racking the slide, but it is more of apprehension. Her friend got glock bite the first time she went out so now she thinks slides are going to hurt her just touching one.

Onward Allusion
February 14, 2012, 03:26 PM
ChopChopGirl
Opinions - concealed carry for small female
Hello,

I am a new female subscriber who is a shooter and own several guns. I have a female friend who wants a gun to conceal while hiking and running. She is 5ft. 4 inches, and only weighs 106 lbs. Has her heart set on a Beretta Tomcat, and I've advised her of all the cracked frame issues.

The real challenge for someone that tiny as I see it - not much can be concealed easily and she cannot rack the slides with most small guns. I've taken her to shoot the Ruger LCP, the S&W bodyguard and others, and she doesn't like any of them.

The real appeal for her is the tip up barrel on the Tomcat, and I suppose an INOX is a better bet, but clearly not a winner from all I've read here and other places.

Any ideas? I'm about to suggest she get and American Arms .22 MAG -no racking, but no real protection either, or get the Tomcat and pray for success. Thanks, in advance for any advivce on this.

One main issue with tip-up barrels is the lack of an extractor. If the gun has a failure to eject or fire, it would require more than a quick tap-rack-bang to fix.

I would also not recommend the North American Arms mini revolvers since they are single action and are awkward in a panic situation. Also, they are 22LR or 22 Mag, neither a good caliber for self-defense from an extremely short barrel.

While a small DA revolver is always a good choice, it is much bulkier than the guns you'd mentioned, especially on a petite person.

Take a look at the Kel-Tec P32. Less than 10 ounces fully loaded, 7+1 shot, extremely thin, and also in 32 ACP. I have 3 of them and they all have worked well. I load Buffalo Bore +P 32 ACP in the chamber and another 7 Foccohi FMJ in the mag. Much lighter recoil than the Ruger LCP or S&W Bodyguard, too!

beatledog7
February 14, 2012, 03:33 PM
See also

http://www.youtube.com/user/faliaphotography?feature=watch

bigfatdave
February 14, 2012, 03:36 PM
the p32 would be a gun I would bring to such a test-firing event ... but I really think that some trigger time will narrow down the choices, as will talking to women who actually carry on a regular basis.

First read corneredcat's website, then shoot a bunch of guns, then worry about hardware

jrumsey
February 14, 2012, 07:42 PM
My vote, Ruger SP101 chambered in the .327 Federal Magnum. Can shoot 32 S&W and 32 H&R magnum as well. Just have to dress more for concealment there are many options.

ChopChopGirl
February 14, 2012, 11:03 PM
Thanks to all for your thoughtful comments and suggestions. I am continuing to digest them all, and have to say there is not one comment I disagree with –you are all good people.

•To those of you with firearm suggestions – I will research and devour info on your suggestions.
•The cornered cat is a great resource – one I never heard of – appreciate.
•@newbuckeye – I will suggest the revolver route again. lol. Got nowhere the first time.
•@dogmush – I so understand your comments on many women not liking DA – seen it so many times.
•@ bigfatdave – if I did live close by you are the kind of friend I’d like to have.

Thanks again everyone! ChopChopGirl.

Mentokk1
February 14, 2012, 11:19 PM
I found that the s&w 500 is the perfect conceal gun. Then again I am 10ft tall.

CheapFuneral
February 14, 2012, 11:35 PM
Size doesnt matter for her to conceal... She could put a revolver in a purse or any other gun for that matter. There is ankle carry iwb shoulder and on the inside of your upper leg. I find women have it easy because of their purse. There is a YouTube girl that she's ways women can better conceal u should check her out I'll edit this post with her user name. - Faliaphotography is her name shows different ways for different types of dress.

MICHAEL T
February 14, 2012, 11:56 PM
All the women in my family have settled on the P-32 for all arounf shooting and carry. The beretta to thick and heavy . The tip up barrel is fine if everything works as suppose to. Other wise its trouble

ArchAngelCD
February 15, 2012, 12:13 AM
A good friend had sever arthritis and was about to give up on semi-auto pistols because he could not rack the slide. THEN he found the Sig P238 Rosewood (http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductList/pistols-p238.aspx). That little gun looks like a shrunken 1911, it fires the 380 Auto and most importantly the slide is very easy to operate. I've shot that wonderful pistol and it is great although it is metal and it's not as light as the new crop of polymer pistols that are all the rage. (yet still only 15.2oz which it's all that heavy) You really can't tell how small it is on the web site but it is small. It's well worth a look...

PabloJ
February 15, 2012, 01:50 AM
She said hiking and running therefore size and weight considerations are very important. Top choices are 10% Peppergard along with Ruger LCP pistol. The LCP is wonderful short range defensive weapon that is small, reliable and inexpensive to buy especially second-hand market.

ArchAngelCD
February 15, 2012, 04:46 AM
People that keep suggesting the LCP must have missed the OP: "I've taken her to shoot the Ruger LCP, the S&W bodyguard and others, and she doesn't like any of them."

The Kidd
February 15, 2012, 05:27 AM
I will suggest a Taurus .380 revolver. I just bought one and it is amazingly easy to conceal. It is also very light which aids in concealment. It is pleasant to shoot so maybe your friend will practice enough to shoot well. I know it is a .380 so anything worth shooting is worth shooting five times. Also, my wife says it is "cute".

LightningMan
February 15, 2012, 08:16 AM
MY 2 cents for what it's worth, I was at my clubs range where a couple were shooting, and the wife was trying different simi-auto pistols for the purpose of concealed carry. This gal was on the petite side, and could not rack the slide on any of the pistols her husband gave her to try, also she had a hard time hitting the targets. I too suggested a revolver, but if she had to have an auto pistol, that a Tomcat tip-up barrel might be the only way to go. Then I remembered I had my Sig P238 with me, and that little .380 has a slide that is easy to rack, so dug it out of my shooting bag. Low and behold, she could rack the side, and hit most the the targets. Her husband said; "I think we found a pistol for you" I haven't seen them sence, so I don't know how it worked out for them. LM

jon_in_wv
February 15, 2012, 09:58 AM
Supposedly the cracked frame issue didn't effect the inox Tomcats. Personally, I think the Tomcat sounds like a good one for her. If she likes it she is much more likely to practice and carry it. I don't think the snub nosed 38 is a good choice for her at all. The lightweights are miserable to shoot and the steel framed ones are too heavy for what she wants. Stay away from the 22 mags. Not a good round for self defense in my opinion.

Personally I would try to talk her into the LCP or the 380 Bodyguard. Both are much better shooters than they have any right to be and they are lighter and more convenient to carry than the others. Also, take to her the a shop and have her handle a Kahr 380 or 9mm. They are really cool too. She might like that one. If she is stuck on the DA/SA trigger the Bersa 380 is a great weapon for a lady. Recoil is almost non existent and its accurate and reliable too. Its a little larger than the other 380s but its still lighter and easier to carry than a steel framed 38 and a heck of a lot easier to shoot than a lightweight snubbie.

Madcap_Magician
February 15, 2012, 10:09 AM
The Tomcat is actually not the worst gun she could have, besides the obvious caliber issue. If her heart is set on it, and she's tried all the others, that may be the way to go.

With a little training, she should be able to figure out how to rack a slide.

In that case, I would recommend a Kahr K9 or the Walther PPS. They both carry a much better load and are very compact. The Walther is lighter, of course, having a polymer frame. Both have a reputation of being easy to shoot.

The Walther may be the best bet if she wants to take it running. I find when I run that a gun that gets much over a pound is hard to carry comfortably, especially when you add in a cell phone, driver's license, CCW permit, and keys.

jon_in_wv
February 15, 2012, 12:03 PM
The Kahr CW9 is also a great choice and the price is good too.

Manco
February 15, 2012, 01:12 PM
I've had the chance to help out a fair number of very small asian women that came out for their first ever gun shooting expierience. Once shown how to hold the slide with an overhand four finger and heel of palm hold and to commit to really racking the slide hard they all did well.

The biggest problem was that at first they were afraid to really put any power into racking the slide for fear of breaking the gun. Yep, honestly.

Based on my own experiences, at least, I think you nailed the root cause. As far as I can tell, a healthy woman of virtually any size (the smallest I've helped so far is a slender 4'11") can generate enough physical force to rack a slide, with no special techniques required; I do recommend the overhand grip, however, as it is stronger. They just need to be forceful and merciless on the gun, which as you've observed many are reluctant to be. I've had to describe what happens to the slide when shooting and then let them shoot a few rounds to see how that feels in order to convince them that they could not possibly harm the gun by racking the slide too hard.

Amusing side note: A pair of these very small and light first timers got all giggly and nervous at the idea of shooting a 12Ga shotgun. Someone at the next station was shooting one while I was working them through a 9mm semi. They were shocked at what looked like a crazy gun and all the noise. I told them that I could show them how and it would not hurt them. The reluctantly agreed. By the end of a shared box of target loads they were happy as could be. Two weeks later they came back... For the shotgun... :D

:) They probably found the shotgun more comfortable to shoot, especially if it has a short or adjustable stock. I think the main ergonomic issue that beginners need the most help with regarding long guns is the fit between the stock and their shoulder. Show them how to properly hold a rifle or shotgun, and they'll have fun, while others who don't get the proper instruction (so simple and basic) may end up with a sore bicep or face or other body part, and may never want to touch a long gun again.

chieftain
February 15, 2012, 01:40 PM
My youngest daughter is a 24yo at 4'10" and carry's a Springfield EMP 9mm for her CCW/EDC. Her primary shooter is a full sized Colt Government model in 45acp of course.

The grip of the EMP is smaller than any other 1911. That IS what is special about the EMP.

Good luck.

Fred

allaroundhunter
February 15, 2012, 01:54 PM
The Sig P238 is the softest shooting sub-compact .380 that I have ever shot. It has much better sights than most other "mouse guns", is very accurate, and it is still light enough to barely (or not) notice it when carried. The slide is also extremely easy to manipulate

Captain
February 15, 2012, 05:20 PM
Kahr PM9 is what I got for my wife and daughter. Small framed women and small but powerful firearm. Easy to conceal and carry for them also.

Certaindeaf
February 15, 2012, 05:46 PM
I think our military requires someone on the payroll to carry more than two pounds per forty mile day. What was the nevermind.

3KillerBs
February 15, 2012, 10:12 PM
Size doesnt matter for her to conceal... She could put a revolver in a purse or any other gun for that matter. There is ankle carry iwb shoulder and on the inside of your upper leg. I find women have it easy because of their purse. There is a YouTube girl that she's ways women can better conceal u should check her out I'll edit this post with her user name. - Faliaphotography is her name shows different ways for different types of dress.

It is a serious mistake to think purse carry first when a woman is considering carrying a gun. There are far too many social situations where it is normal and expected for a woman to set her purse down and walk away from it.

Purse carry, like dayplanner carry and briefcase carry, should be considered a last resort for when no other method works at all.

3KillerBs
February 15, 2012, 10:23 PM
Has she tried a Taurus PT709 Slim?

I'm afraid that I can't really comment on slide racking issues because that's never been a problem for me despite my small hands. But I do have difficulty with concealment since I'm both short and overweight and the Slim is small enough to conceal for almost all purposes.

I can say that I absolutely DO NOT recommend my MPA Protector .380 for any beginner because it is quite difficult to rack and actively painful to fire. The tiny size may look appealing, but its a special purpose gun for people who know what they are doing.

It is a counter-intuitive fact that larger semi-autos are often easier to rack. So if she can find a means of concealing something bigger than a sub-compact she may find such a gun easier to handle.

My carry method is to use a bellyband around my ribcage with the gun positioned under my strong-side arm as if it were a vertical shoulder holster. I've got enough range of motion in my shoulder to draw that way if the barrel isn't too long. I don't have enough length in my arm to reach a traditional shoulder holster with the DD obstacles in the way.

heyjoe
February 16, 2012, 12:33 AM
if you rack the slide with just one in the magazine instead of fully loaded, it is much easier to do. next fill the magazine and insert it into the gun. you are ready to go.

IdahoSkies
February 16, 2012, 01:14 AM
First off Welcome. Second I owned and loved my tomcat. I mean really loved it. I carried it every day, everywhere I was legally allowed to. Until it broke. It was a blued model, and the crack threw the accuracy to heck. It was really bad. Beretta redesigned the Tomcat with a wider slid that was supposed to fix the problem. It makes the gun heavier and I felt like it made the slide uncomfortable (look around you probably can find a wide body model to at least hold) to grip. The wider slide also prohibits one from installing a crimson trace grip on the pistol.

After getting it back from beretta (they sent a new replacement pistol to me) I traded it away for a kel-tec p32 and have been very happy. However, it does not have the incredibly comfortable heft and feel the tomcat had. If that is what your friend likes, I strongly suggest she try the sig p238. It is about the same weight, and it feel almost as comfortable (IMO). The slide is easy to rack (much easier than the tomcat's) and the recoil is really incredibly mild for a pistol that size. The Sig p238 has the added bonus of being chambered for the .380 which has some much better self defense ammo, than the .32 ACP does (and this coming from someone who carries a .32 every day).

Good luck. Have your friend read the cornered cat. Hopefully you are not bombarded by to many well meaning opinions, and put a p238 in your friends hand before she decides to buy something. (If she doesn't like it she has tried the closest thing she could).

(The p238 is more expensive, be prepared for some sticker shock. That is probably why I went with a kt32).

Serenity
February 16, 2012, 02:37 AM
Welcome to THR!

I always have trouble with the slide lock when checking out a new gun; I bought my P226 due in part to the fact that I could operate everything on it without moving my hands around.

I haven't shot but I fondled a Kahr PM9 and I really liked it. It is heavier but with a secured holster I don't think it would be a problem.

doc2rn
February 16, 2012, 04:04 AM
I have lost more good guns to small women than I care to count, but hey its worth it! I recomment a S&W mod 10 in either 2" or 3" for daily carry, and a Kel Tec .32 for CCW. Another great gun, if you can find one, is a Ruger SP 101 in .32 H&R magnum. My sister in law (who is anti-gun and shall remain nameless) may have turned the corner when I let her shoot mine on the last family outing, and its the only gun she wanted to shoot...baby steps.

PabloJ
February 16, 2012, 12:11 PM
Since the Ruger LCP is out we are down to 10% Peppergard and large male or female companion for those jogs or hikes. In big bear country I would take along person I could outrun.

aaronu
February 16, 2012, 10:26 PM
Another option for the lady: Sig P230 or P232 in .380 ACP. Easy to rack, simple design. Very elegant looking pistol. No safety, just a decocking lever.

SHR970
February 17, 2012, 12:00 AM
Chopchopgirl wrote: Any ideas? I'm about to suggest she get and American Arms .22 MAG -no racking, but no real protection either, or get the Tomcat and pray for success. I believe you meant no real stopping power either.

I know that the plural of anecdote does not equal data but there are plenty of instances that a 22 pistol or revolver equalled threat neutralized. In most instances the possibility of being shot was enough to thwart the threat. If the goblin believes that there is a real possibility that he will be ventilated, he will probably retreat. Part of that is the person on the other end showing the confidence that they can and will use that gun to hurt them. As the saying goes, a 32 auto in hand beats a 45 auto on the dresser.

I'm 5'4" and I have issues with double stack weapons and large caliber semi's due to grip issues. I can shoot them well enough in nonstress situations but they are not my first choice. I have carried professionally in harms way in the past and know that high cap. does not equal high hit percentage when it counts.

Have her try a variety of weapons like the Sig, 230 / 232, 238, 239, Ladysmith, Walther PPK, etc. The one that fits the hand well is the one that will be more easily controlled. With that comes confidence in the ability to use the weapon. If that means using an Amer. Arms Guardian or Black Widow so be it. Also a snub with a more full grip like a Centennial is worth a look. Look to local gun ranges that have a selection of weapons available for rent. If it is a double action revolver, have her fire it in that manner and not cock it between shots because when it hits the fan that is what she will do. If she can't hit the target Double Action Only then move to another candidate. If Semiauto DA/SA, have her fire the first shot Double action then the rest Single action as that is how the gun will be used in real life. She has to find the gun that she can shoot and hit the target like she is pointing her finger at it.

People who say that in a 5'4" frame you can easily conceal a 1911 are full of themselves and don't understand reality. The trick is to have it on you, not in a purse that can easily and quickly be taken from you before you can react. A 22 L.R. at point blank in the crotch will readjust someones attitude real quick.

chieftain
February 17, 2012, 03:59 AM
People who say that in a 5'4" frame you can easily conceal a 1911 are full of themselves and don't understand reality. The trick is to have it on you, not in a purse that can easily and quickly be taken from you before you can react. A 22 L.R. at point blank in the crotch will readjust someones attitude real quick.

The literate will have read it earlier, but that is why for CCW/EDC my 4'10" daughter carries a Springfield EMP.

She most often carries using the Galco ankle glove, and it seems to work well for her.

Go figure.

Fred

PabloJ
February 17, 2012, 12:43 PM
Large male companion should be good "sand bag" or nice Griz toy if needed. The 1911 style pistol in 9x19 is ladies gun for sure obviously a man would favor .45ACP.

Geno
February 17, 2012, 01:03 PM
ChopChopGirl:

First, welcome to The High Road.

The best option, for anyone, is to find a user-friendly store with a range. When I go to purchase a pistol/revolver, I like to go to Target Sports here in Michigan.

When I walk in, I have the cash in-hand, and have a general idea of what I want. Since Ray rents what he sells, I let him know that I am here to buy a firearm, but am undecided between 3 or 4. He lets me try those free of charge, because I am for fact leaving with a new handgun. That's called good business sense.

As I always advise folks, man or woman, fit is everything. If it doesn't feel right, you likely won't shoot it right. In terms of caliber, I personally am as-scared of a .22LR revolver as I am of a .380, a 9mm, a .45 ACP or even .44 Mag. Heck, bullets cause a humanoid to spring leaks!!! That isn't a good thing, unless the objective is to stop an attack.

Best of luck and have your friend sign-up here and cornered cat. They are both great places to hang-out with decent, like-minded folks.

Geno

Byrd666
February 17, 2012, 01:16 PM
How about the Keltec P3AT with the extended magazine. Or like another person said, a revolver, like the Ruger LCR

MAG-63
February 17, 2012, 05:47 PM
Sig P232.

19&41
February 17, 2012, 08:47 PM
Another vote for the Keltec P3AT. It's small, flat and though it looks ratty, it has a good texture to hold and if she was using it to take on runs it would not be a weapon one would worry about having it's looks ruined. Whatever the choice, try before you buy!

Fennel
February 17, 2012, 08:54 PM
There have been a lot of great suggestions so far! But I definitely second the idea that she should try as many guns as she can get her hands on. There were a lot of guns that I loved on paper but as soon as I tried them I realized it just wasn't going to work for me.

Personally, as a woman who spends a bit too much time at the gun range (and as someone who adores 1911's), I did fall in love completely with a sig p238 for a ccw. It has a bit of heft to it (I have the stainless steel HD version) that makes it a real joy to shoot. I know the point of having a weapon isn't for fun, but it does help when you have something you want to practice with, and subsequently are comfortable carrying.

And I can't help but mention that I've found the Sig P238 really easy to disassemble and clean- some full sized guns have been a challenge for me with my smaller hands. And of course, the less hassle it is to clean, the more you'll want to use it. Which all leads to practicing with the weapon more.

Best of luck to you and your friend!

Shadow 7D
February 17, 2012, 11:32 PM
Read the sticky at the top of this forum

Haywireranch
February 18, 2012, 08:50 AM
Bought my wife a p238 for CCW she really likes the size and ease to rack the slide plus the accuracy.I also bought one for myself to add to my CCW choices.Nice little pistol. GOD BLESS AMERICA

oldfool
February 19, 2012, 08:11 AM
another vote for the the compact Sigs 380s, notably the P238
I think I also saw somewhere that Colt is bringing back the Colt Mustang 380
(the lighter, shorter barrel version of the steel Colt Gov'mt model 380)

Trad Archer
February 19, 2012, 09:36 AM
My wife LOVES her Sig Sauer P238 380. Accurate, light, and easy to carry and conceal.

golden
February 19, 2012, 05:33 PM
CHOP,

I have two guns that I use all the time for concealed carry. The BERETTA Tomcat and the SIG 232.

I use the Tomcat when the clothes I am wearing will not hide the SIG.

I prefer the SIG for its longer range (a fact caused by the larger grip, much bigger and easier to see sights and a terrific trigger), which is a .380ACP to the Tomcat which is a .32ACP as far a caliber is concerned, but I do what I have to do to "CONCEAL" my carry gun.

The good points on the BERETTA is that even without an extractor, it never seems to jam as long as I use an ammo it likes. My wife like the flip up barrel and good sized grip that she borrowed it for concealed carry. She already uses my SIG 225 for a house gun.

I then bought another BERETTA Tomcat. I liked it that much. For a .32ACP, it is big enough to be controllable and accurate without being hard to conceal. I really like pocket carry with a pocket carrier like the old Than RYBKA pocket holster. It has worked very well for me.

I think the extractor issue highly exagerated as I have not had any problems with either the .25ACP or .32ACP BERETTA pistols with tip up barrels. Also, the tip up barrel gives you a foolproof way to clear the chamber without any risk of an accidental discharge when you lower the hammer. You just flip up the barrel and then you can lower the hammer. You can also load a round into the chamber without having to rack the slide.

These are big pluses to my wife who has trouble racking a slide on most guns.
The frame cracking issue has not bothered me yet and I do not worry about it.

Jim

bigfatdave
February 19, 2012, 05:47 PM
The frame cracking issue has not bothered me yet and I do not worry about it.if frame cracking was a major concern and I was dedicated to running a Tomcat, I'd just get the similar .22lr (bobcat?) as a trainer. Run 10x the ammo through the trainer, just practice with the .32 enough to maintain proficiency with rapid-fire recoil management.
Or ... just get a P32 from KelTec and save all the trouble, while having a lighter/thinner more modern gun -my solution, those little Berettas are cute though, there's a minx (.22short only) I keep almost buying at a local shop, eventually I'll talk him down far enough to buy it as a toy.

But I still think the hardware suggestions are worthless without range time, and as the OP has no activity on the forum since the 17th, I think that this is becooming an academic discussion, and should just be closed out to the "So you want to buy your girlfriend/wife a gun" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=564531) thread until the OP or the actual person wanting a carry gun has more information about the results of a range trip.

golden
February 19, 2012, 06:32 PM
BIGFATDAVE,

Unlike the BERETTA, MY KELTEC has NEVER GONE THROUGH A FULL MAGAZINE WITHOUT JAM. I would have loved an even smaller, cheaper, lighter pistol, but I need it to work all the time.

Jim

ChopChopGirl
February 19, 2012, 07:39 PM
Sorry so long to reply - out of town. I have shared these comments with my friend, who, nevertheless, has gone ahead and ordered an INOX Tomcat. I do appreciate all the thoughtful suggestions - I personally have learned much from them for my personal and future acquisitions.

And, at the end of the day, I supposed the gun she is comfortable with will be the one that serves her well. It will be intersting to see how the Tomcat is to run with - she is ordering "thunderware" (?) to conceal it. Though my running days are behind me, I can't imagine training for half marathons lugging it along. I do believe at this point this post can be closed out, as suggested recently.

Thanks again to all who took the time and care to help me out with this topic.

ChopChopGirl

USMC8541
February 19, 2012, 09:54 PM
I recommend a revolver.Doesn't really matter if you are a large female/male or a small female/male. What matters is to pick your tool and learn how to use it and develop your fighting mindset.

firesky101
February 20, 2012, 01:28 AM
Just make sure to have fun at the range with your friend. The more fun she has the more she will shoot.

mes228
February 20, 2012, 01:05 PM
Glock 19, standard mag, 115 grain hollow point. Light weight, low recoil, high capacity, very reliable, very very inexpensive but not "cheap". Old design but up to anything out there, and surpasses 99% of anything out there. The CIA Operator arrested in Afghanistan for dispatching two assailants, carried a Model 19. I suspect he could have carried anything he wished. With the right holster I suspect purse carry would be a snap. Just my opinion. I've owned .40 caliber pistols that recoiled less than .380 caliber pistols. Some small, light weight pistols, even .38 special caliber are brutal to fire. And women won't shoot it enough to be proficient in some cases.

ChopChopGirl
February 20, 2012, 04:54 PM
@ bigfatdave:

She picks up the gun tonight, which means I will most assuredly be making a trip to the range with her in the next couple of days. My idea is to have her put at least 150 rounds through it, since most who report cracks in the frame said on the various forums that it happens almost immediately.

I'll report back on how it goes with the gun and with the shooter. Thanks again.

bigfatdave
February 20, 2012, 10:00 PM
golden, can't help you there, my p32 runs like a top on anything with the right OAL, and only occasionally chokes on shorter stuff.
Perhaps you should contact KelTec and utilize their superb customer service.

bigfatdave
February 20, 2012, 11:04 PM
ChopChopGirl, 150 rounds through a lightweight (ish) straight-blowback gun might be a bit much for one range session from one hand.
You might be better off helping her run 5-10 magazines through, and supplying a selection of less challenging guns to shoot.

Serenity
February 20, 2012, 11:16 PM
I concur; when I started I was exhausted after a box of 50 38 special out of our m67; and it is a really smooth revolver. The concentration required to try to remember everything at once and not totally suck was intense. Maybe it comes easier to others, but I think anyone would be fatigued by that much shooting without experience. Moreso if the pistol is challenging. That's my free opinion, for what it's worth,

ChopChopGirl
February 20, 2012, 11:24 PM
@bigfatdave - I will do as you suggest and luckily, I've bought my fair share of less challenging "fun guns" back in the day. lol. She should have some enjoyable shooting with my Ruger Mark II, American Arms 22LR/Mag "onion field gun" and even the Beretta .25ACP Jetfire. I did move up into a .357 Ruger SP101 snubby. Now that baby is sweet!

Thanks again.

bigfatdave
February 21, 2012, 12:18 AM
Oh yes, get her going on the easy-to-run mkII and teach the fundamentals of DA pull on that .357mag loaded with powder-puff .38sp loads if you need to.

And after the Tomcat beats you both up* you might want to pitch the idea of either practicing with the .22lr version (bobcat) or re-thinking choice of gun.
(in the interest of full disclosure - I haven't personally shot a Tomcat, I'm going off of experience with other guns and interpolating)

Make sure she has fun at the range, start and end with something easy, and keep the first target to compare to the best target. If you do it right, you'll be getting pestered to go to the range every few weeks from here on out!


* (I'm not joking or being condescending, .32acp can be snappy in little blowback guns, my wonderful wife picked out a NAA guardian I hate to shoot because it hurts)

Zeke/PA
February 21, 2012, 07:43 AM
I like the simplicity of a small revolver for a daily carry.
My own is a S&W 638 that fits easily in the pocket of my jeans.
For practice, I shoot reloads, daily carry, 135 grain Speer +P's.

golden
February 21, 2012, 01:14 PM
Dave,

After shooting the Tomcat, I did not really see any reason to bother with the KEL TEC. The BERETTA was just so much nicer and I prefer the tip up barrel. With these small guns, manipulation becomes more difficult.
The tip up barrel overcomes all of the problems that I have noticed.

Jim

Doug S
February 21, 2012, 02:09 PM
I'd look at a snubnose of some type, but I'd probably look at 32mag. 38 Special in a light snub is a difficult round to shoot well, and not all that fun to practice with.

Revolver Ocelot
February 21, 2012, 02:14 PM
Size doesnt matter

I'm sure she's heard that before...

in all seriousness, I second the notion of a 38 cal revolver. it's about as simple as it gets and no slide racking to speak of. my wife carries a k-frame sized revolver and she can do that without much issue.

rooster59
February 21, 2012, 04:21 PM
If she's a runner, a small belt pack won't look out of place. Put a S&W 642 inside with cell phone, mp3, and car keys. No hammer to snag, no slide to rack, simple point and click interface.

S&W 642 J-frame revolver (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764960_-1_757767_757751_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)

ChopChopGirl
February 21, 2012, 05:32 PM
I guess I should have mentioned I went down the revolver path first with her, as I thought it was the best choice. She is convinced a revolver is too bulky and hard to conceal. I should have also mentioned she has been to the range with my family several times and shot everything we own - including my Ruger .357, my dad's S&W 9mm and his Colt 1911 .45. She actually liked the Colt the best of them all. Go figure.

So, when we went to shoot the LCP I believed we had met all her requirements and was quite baffled with how much she hated it. I must say her hand was quite raw and red after shooting it. And I noticed it seeemd to have a looong trigger pull, but then I don't own any DA only. But, I did like it. I guess it goes to show that heavier guns are more balanced, in a way, and smoother to shoot.

So, whenever she gets back in town from a biz trip we will hit the range and one of two things will happen - she will either love it or hate it--and if she hates it---I will probably buy it from her.....

bigfatdave
February 21, 2012, 07:26 PM
golden, I'd like to try the Beretta __cat line, but I don't know someone with one to borrow and that Minx just doesn't want to go home with me bad enough to do it. Those little mouseguns are the only thing Beretta makes that even has a chance to fit my hand, and they'd make superb toys.

I don't have trouble with the P32, though, and don't really need the tip-up feature and even with my monster mitts I don't have trouble with the slide if racked overhand. And I so rarely carry the little thing that I couldn't justify another in that size class except as a toy, thus the desire for that Minx (if I could only find a few spare magazines somewhere for it, and if I could talk the shop down to $225 OTD, I'd have it to go with all these .22shorts I have for the Henry)

===

ChopChopGirl, I understand the no-revo concept, revolvers are just so wide for their capacity compared to autoloaders!
Also, if she hates it ... any idea what the little thing went for when she bought it?

===

Doug S, while the .32__ revolver may look good on paper, there is a lot to be said for a cartridge a new shooter can get anywhere. New shooters don't want to deal with ordering specialty ammo or going gun-shop to gun-shop looking for something, they want to pick some ammo up at WalMart to plink with and maybe some HP stuff from a gun shop. The .38sp/.357mag is just so common and established, the .32 wheelguns get neglected because ammo isn't on the shelf.

harmon rabb
February 21, 2012, 10:16 PM
Walther PK380. The compact (but not subcompact) 380 clearly designed for women. I don't know why it doesn't come in pink. Seriously. And I don't mean this as an insult.

The slide is the easiest to rack of anything I've handled. Seriously, if you can zip up your fly, you can rack the slide of a PK380. The recoil is barely more than a 22. The grip lets you get all your fingers on it, but just so. The reach to the trigger is very short. The gun itself is super light.

There really is nothing quite like it out there. I'm always entertained any time I shoot the one I bought for my wife. It really does feel close to a 22.

joneser49
February 21, 2012, 10:51 PM
My wife is 5'4" and about 120lbs. She also has trouble racking slides. All said and done she picked a glock 19. Maybe not most concealable, but who is going to ever say or question a little woman about carry? She can rack it with ease and shoot it well. Recoil is low. Like all the replies.

ChopChopGirl
February 21, 2012, 11:40 PM
@bigfatdave - The best price on the INOX we could find local in Columbus Ohio was $449.00 plus tax. That price was at Gander Mountain which was $40+ better than anywhere else. They special ordered it and basically matched the price for the combo INOX slide, matte blue base.

weregunner
February 22, 2012, 07:57 AM
I'd like to make some recommendations.

Your lady friend might want to take a basic www.nra.org or www.nssf.com firearm course. These two places have classes with credentialed instructors. This would give her a basic education as to what caliber/gun combo would fill her needs.

There are women only classes from these organizations as well.

www.womenandguns.com www.babeswithbullets.com are two other sources you both can use.

There are revolvers, snub or otherwise, that can shoot .32 H&R magnum or .32 S&W Long ammo. S&W,Taurus, Ruger and Charter Arms make revolvers with short barrels.

The .32 H&R magnum is more powerful than the .32 ACP, yet is mild enough that just about anyone should be able to handle it or the milder .32 S&W Long.

The revolver means no racking any slide and the manual of arms is user friendly. So are the cartridges. Speed loaders are built for carrying extra ammo. Tuff Products and Bianchi make Speedstrips or something similar. www.tuffproducts.com/home.php?cat=265

Extra ammo can be carried discretely and comfortably.

Revolvers can be hidden quite well. Yes, I realize she does not like revolvers, but by her taking a course first she'll be more educated on that. Then she'll be more able to decide what works and what does not.

If she chooses to stay with the pistols, no problem.

weregunner
February 22, 2012, 08:07 AM
Oh,yes.

CZ makes the CZ83 in .32 ACP and it holds 15 shots in the magazine. I own one. The recoil spring is not that hard to overcome.

Taurus makes the PT132 Millennium Pro which is also in .32 ACP. I own 3.
It holds 10+1 rounds. Both of these have been and are reliable.

Yes, these pistols are bigger, but they are not hard to hold or use. The longer barrel means better bullet velocity and a longer sight plain for a bit better accuracy than one can get with the ultra small pocket pistols.

She should shoot the largest caliber she can be proficient with. Even if it is a .22lrf. Yes, it is no powerhouse and something bigger would be in order.

There are also those for whom it is a .22lrf gun or nothing at all.

None of this has to be done right this minute, but can be done when she has the time and can concentrate on all this.
I wish the best for her and you. It's a big decision with a lot of things to consider.

Best wishes.

Certaindeaf
February 22, 2012, 02:45 PM
Interesting. Hopefully all will be good all around.

My GF just got back visiting family in MT and told me that there's a "curfew" for women in Kalispel. I said "huh" and asked for her to elaborate.. she just repeated that that's what she had been told. I told her I didn't even think that that would be legal.

kb58
February 22, 2012, 05:13 PM
Found this on the Interweb, must be true:
In Columbia Falls, Montana, a curfew law was officially reinstated on February 3rd, 2011. The law requires anyone under the age of 18 to remain indoors between the hours of 11 p.m. and 6 a.m. Exceptions are made for employment, meetings, events, and errands that are religious and school-related. Violators of the curfew can be fined $50.

Certaindeaf
February 22, 2012, 06:04 PM
^
I hear you and am not surprised.. this is how conveyance of information goes and I just let it lay. No big whoop.

jimniowa
February 22, 2012, 09:27 PM
My wife is similar in size to your friend, has mild AR in here wrists. She has a cwp that she qualified with a 686 4". Her carry gun was 2" .32 H&R mag. She now carries a Ruger LCR in .38 sp shoots 125g jhp +p ammo, and 158 g swcfp in the winter. The light weight LCR works great for her, check out the LCR. She will be 62 next month and a 3 gun shooter now.
Jim
Jim

bigfatdave
February 22, 2012, 09:57 PM
ChopChopGirl, ouch!
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I could buy a pair of p32s for that price!

Tomcat47
February 22, 2012, 10:19 PM
First off, get what you like! Recommendations are only that..opinions!
Auto, or revolver..satisfy yourself!

I have a blue Beretta 3032 (not new wide slide) It has never failed to feed,fire, or eject.

The inox is a nice gun and has wider slide as do the newer blued versions, due to the crack issues? It is my belief that those are mostly ammo related, due to market ammo that is above recommended fps

Here is recommended ammo: ( I have shot it all and My Tomcat is unscathed after Hundreds of rounds, and approaching the thousand mark. (although no issues I do not care for blazer ammo)

Federal Premium Personal Defense 65gr Hydra-Shok JHP (950 Feet/Sec and 130 FT/LBs)
Winchester Super-X Silver Tip 60gr JHP (970 Feet/Sec and 125 FT/LBs)
Speer Gold Dot JHP (960 Feet/Sec and 123 FT/LBs)
Prvi-Partisn 71gr FMJ (902 Feet/Sec and 129 FT/LBs)
Remington UMC 71gr FMJ (905 Feet/Sec and 129 FT/LBs)
CCI Blazer 71gr FMJ (900 Feet/Sec and 128 FT/LBs)
Note that while purchasing ammunition, it is possible with some of the retail shelf personal defense ammunition to find ammunition that can nearly double that of the allowed 130 FT/LB muzzle energy.
I expect this is the biggest issue with the Tomcats, and unnecessary!
Winchester ST and Speer Gold Dot are my favorites

Also Note! IF you can find one they made a limited amount of these wonderful pistols in Titanium and they came with tritium night sights as well! This one is on gunsamerica!

chieftain
February 22, 2012, 10:50 PM
For your consideration, from M4Carbine.net.

From Dr Gary K Roberts leading Terminal Balistic researcher in America today:


BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp

8/23/11

If you are an LE officer, carry a BUG!!!

Many small, easily concealed semi-automatic pistols which are recommended for law enforcement backup or concealed carry use fire .380 ACP or smaller bullets. While these small caliber handgun bullets can produce fatal wounds, they are less likely to produce the rapid incapacitation necessary in law enforcement or self-defense situations.

Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them.

While both the .380 ACP and .38 sp can obviously be lethal; the .38 sp is more likely to incapacitate an attacker when used in a BUG role.

BUG--Infrequently used, but when needed, it must be 100% reliable because of the extreme emergency situation the user is dealing with. Generally secreted in pockets, ankle holsters, body armor holsters, etc... Often covered in lint, grime, and gunk. By their very nature, usually applied to the opponent in an up close and personal encounter, many times involving contact shots. A small .38 sp revolver is more reliable in these situations than a small .380 ACP pistol, especially with contact shots or if fired from a pocket.

--------------------------------------------------

There have been many reports in the scientific literature, by Dr. Fackler and others, recommending the 158 gr +P LSWCHP as offering adequate performance. Please put this in context for the time that these papers were written in the late 1980's and early 1990's--no denim testing was being performed at that time, no robust expanding JHP's, like the Barnes XPB, Federal Tactical & HST, Speer Gold Dot, or Win Ranger Talon existed. In the proper historical perspective, the 158 gr +P LSWCHP fired out 3-4" barrel revolvers was one of the best rounds available--and it is still a viable choice, as long as you understand its characteristics.

While oversimplified, bare gelatin gives information about best case performance, while 4 layer denim provides data on worst case performance--in reality, the actual performance may be somewhere in between. The four layer denim test is NOT designed to simulate any type of clothing--it is simply an engineering test to assess the ability of a projectile to resist plugging and robustly expand. FWIW, one of the senior engineers at a very respected handgun ammunition manufacturer recently commented that bullets that do well in 4 layer denim testing have invariably worked well in actual officer involved shooting incidents.

With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. Many of the lighter JHP's demonstrate overexpansion and insufficient penetration in bare gel testing. Also, the harsher recoil of the +P loads in lightweight J-frames tends to minimize practice efforts and decrease accuracy for many officers. The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration, however in a 2" revolver the 158gr +P LSWCHP does not reliably expand. If it fails to expand, it will produce less wound trauma than a WC. Target wadcutters offer good penetration, cut tissue efficiently, and have relatively mild recoil. With wadcutters harder alloys and sharper leading edges are the way to go. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4 layer denim covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame.

When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work. A sharper edged wadcutter would even be better... Dr. Fackler has written in Fackler ML: "The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999)


"As a surgeon by profession, I am impressed by bullets with a cutting action (eg. Winchester Talon and Remington Golden Saber). Cutting is many times more efficient at disrupting tissue than the crushing mechanism by which ordinary bullets produce the hole through which they penetrate. The secret to the increased efficiency of the full wadcutter bullet is the cutting action of its sharp circumferential leading edge. Actually, cutting is simply very localized crush; by decreasing the area over which a given force is spread, we can greatly increase the magnitude to the amount of force delivered per unit are--which is a fancy way of saying that sharp knives cut a lot better than dull ones. As a result, the calculation of forces on tissue during penetration underestimate the true effectiveness of the wadcutter bullet relative to other shapes."

Currently, the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP and Barnes 110 gr XPB all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 sp 2” BUG; the Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B) and Hornady 110 gr standard pressure and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers.

Any of the Airweight J-frames are fine for BUG use. The steel J-frames are a bit too heavy for comfortable all day wear on the ankle, body armor, or in a pocket. My current J-frames are 342's and previously in my career I have used the 37, 38, 649, and 642. I like the 342 w/Laser grips very much. Shooting is not too bad with standard pressure wadcutters and the 110 gr DPX, but not so comfortable with the Speer 135 gr JHP +P Gold Dots. Before the advent of the 110 gr Corbon DPX load, I used to carry standard pressure wadcutters in my J-frames with Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP's in speed strips for re-loads, as the flat front wadcutters were hard to reload with under stress. There is no reason to go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does not result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2” barrels.

For years, J-frames were considered "arm's reach" weapons, that is until CTC Laser grips were added. With the mild recoil of target wadcutters, officers are actually practicing with their BUG's; when combined with Laser grips, qualification scores with J-frames have dramatically increased. Now 5 shots rapid-fire in a 6" circle at 25 yds is not uncommon--kind of mind blowing watching officers who could not hit the target at 25 yds with a J-frame suddenly qualify with all shots in the black…

2" J-frames are great BUG's and marginally acceptable low threat carry guns because they are lightweight, reliable, and offer acceptable terminal performance at close range--downsides are difficulty in shooting well at longer ranges because of sight design and sight radius limitations, along with reduced capacity coupled with slower reloading. Nonetheless, with the addition of CTC Laser Grips and an enclosed or shrouded hammer, the 2" J-frame models without key locks (I personally will NEVER own firearm with an integral lock) may be the best BUG's and most reliable pocket handguns available.

Another great BUG option if it can be comfortably carried, is a compact 3-3.5" barrel 9 mm pistol like the G26, Kahr PM9, Sig P239, or S&W 3913, as these offer superior terminal performance compared to either .380 ACP or .38 Sp handguns. A G26 is particularly nice when using a G19 or 17 as a primary weapon due to the ability to use the same magazines.

As always, don't get too wrapped in the nuances of ammunition terminal performance. Spend your time and money on developing a warrior mindset, training, practice, and more training.

Go figure.

Fred

ChopChopGirl
February 23, 2012, 07:49 AM
@bigfatdave - I don't think you are a jerk....I was shocked at the price, too.

@Tomcat47 - great ammunition info I will put to good use - I need to check what personal defense ammo my friend purchased and make sure it meets the requirements. When researching the Tomact, I too found myself wondering if the cracked frames come from innapropriate ammo.

bigfatdave
February 23, 2012, 12:12 PM
@Tomcat47 - great ammunition infoindeed!
That should be put somewhere with a searchable tag, like
"Appropriate Beretta Tomcat ammunition"
and/or
"Beretta Tomcat recommended ammo"

(I'm making it more searchable)

Tomcat47
February 23, 2012, 11:47 PM
Concerning the Tomcat 3032... I will also say that I have a lady friend that has a first generation as well like mine.

She also has conformed to the requirements on ammo. She is also a gun fanatic and hers has probably seen 3x as many rounds through it. It is not cracked either.

I have had two of these pistols..the first one due to an assembly error the (recoil bar) malfunctioned and was returned to Beretta the day after I bought it. (There is a Right and Left Recoil Bar and apparently it had two of same in it and it would not operate that way) They replaced the gun with a brand new one at no charge with an apology...That was around late 80's I believe.

I have enjoyed these pistols very much over the years. I want an Inox version and maybe if I get a good deal "and find" a titanium version I will nab it!

marcclarke
February 24, 2012, 02:02 AM
Based on my own experiences, at least, I think you nailed the root cause. As far as I can tell, a healthy woman of virtually any size (the smallest I've helped so far is a slender 4'11") can generate enough physical force to rack a slide, with no special techniques required; I do recommend the overhand grip, however, as it is stronger. They just need to be forceful and merciless on the gun, which as you've observed many are reluctant to be. I've had to describe what happens to the slide when shooting and then let them shoot a few rounds to see how that feels in order to convince them that they could not possibly harm the gun by racking the slide too hard.



:) They probably found the shotgun more comfortable to shoot, especially if it has a short or adjustable stock. I think the main ergonomic issue that beginners need the most help with regarding long guns is the fit between the stock and their shoulder. Show them how to properly hold a rifle or shotgun, and they'll have fun, while others who don't get the proper instruction (so simple and basic) may end up with a sore bicep or face or other body part, and may never want to touch a long gun again.
Same experience here with a 4'11" female. Once I explained that military-style semi-automatics were designed to be impervious to testosterone-charged 18-year-old males she had no trouble racking her full-sized 1911 using an overhand grip with her elbows held tightly against her ribs.

ChopChopGirl
February 25, 2012, 10:05 PM
@Tomcat47 - thanks for giving so much good data on the upside of these guns. Looks like I will get to shoot the INOX tomorrow. Can't wait!

Coop45
February 25, 2012, 10:31 PM
Kahr P380 should be an easy conceal when running.

weregunner
February 26, 2012, 07:16 AM
Also have a Beretta Tomcat 3020 that is blued. It has not coughed on anything given to it.

I like the tip up barrel feature.

Also in the mix is a NAA Guardian in .32ACP and a Taurus 732 in that caliber as well.

ChopChopGirl
February 27, 2012, 09:11 PM
Finally got with my friend and we put 100 rounds through the INOX Tomcat. She did most of the shooting and it went well. We used UMC FMJ ammo. This gun should work fine for her needs, though, she hasn't tried running with it yet.

At first I found it a bit snappy, but I was beginning to get good, consistent accuracy into my third clip.

Hope to get out with it again soon so I can assess it in a bit more detail. Didn't want to be a gun pig the first time out -- after all, it's her gun...

weregunner
February 29, 2012, 06:11 AM
There is this for sources of info.


Colt Forum

Conceal Carry Forum

Defensive Carry



FN Forum

Glock Forum

Glock Forums

Gun Forum



H&K Forum

Hand Gun Forum

Kel Tec Forum

Marlin Firearms Forum



Smith & Wesson Forum

Taurus Forum

Walther Forum

XD Forum

Just that they are available.

There is this as well.http://berettaforum.net/vb/

There's this for the ladies for a source as well.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/bustles-bows-bullets/

There are links in the first few threads that have women's sites for shooting.

Zeke/PA
February 29, 2012, 05:36 PM
I said it before and I'll keep saying it.
In my humble opinion, "racking slides", "thumbing de-cockers" and "disengaging" safties are NOT things to be thought about in an emergency situation ESPECIALLY by someone who is only a "casual" shooter.
A revolver, on the other hand CAN be kept READY and SAFE at all times, a mere pull of the trigger bringing it into action.

lloveless
February 29, 2012, 07:32 PM
You can reccomend all you want, and it doesn't mean didly squat to some one who doesn't read here and who has their mind set on another gun. The one buying the gun is a runner. Anyone here tried running with a revolver? In a fanny pack? I have, and it will beat ya to death. ChopChop is intelligent, and is doing her friend a great service.
ll

Zeke/PA
February 29, 2012, 07:55 PM
You can reccomend all you want, and it doesn't mean didly squat to some one who doesn't read here and who has their mind set on another gun. The one buying the gun is a runner. Anyone here tried running with a revolver? In a fanny pack? I have, and it will beat ya to death. ChopChop is intelligent, and is doing her friend a great service.
ll

I really want to believe that MY posts ARE directed to folks that read here.

ChopChopGirl
March 2, 2012, 01:08 PM
@Zeek/PA – I agree with you on the safety of a revolver, but as a former runner I also agree with lloveless. It’s just not practical (particularly for a small woman) to run with a revolver.

Thank you lloveless for your kind words of support. And Zeke, I do read here and am trying to “build a bridge”….first and foremost, these posts have benefitted me enormously. If I thought I had all the answers I wouldn’t have reached out. My hope is to get my friend plugged into this forum soon!

So, thanks to all.

Zeke/PA
March 2, 2012, 03:57 PM
Well, I have RAN,JOGGED, WALKED and did MOUNTAIN CLIMBING with my S&W 638 in a Holster,Belt.Jeans Pocket venue.

Zeke/PA
March 2, 2012, 07:11 PM
@Zeek/PA – I agree with you on the safety of a revolver, but as a former runner I also agree with lloveless. It’s just not practical (particularly for a small woman) to run with a revolver.

Thank you lloveless for your kind words of support. And Zeke, I do read here and am trying to “build a bridge”….first and foremost, these posts have benefitted me enormously. If I thought I had all the answers I wouldn’t have reached out. My hope is to get my friend plugged into this forum soon!

So, thanks to all.

No bridge building needed as this is a very friendly and informative forum.
Respectfully, Zeke

ChopChopGirl
March 8, 2012, 02:44 PM
Thanks Zeke - appreciate.

golden
March 20, 2012, 09:47 PM
CHOPGIRL,

I am glad your friend likes her Tomcat. I just came back from the range where I shot two .32ACP pistols.
One was a BERETTA Tomcat blue model and I put another 50 rounds through it shooting the SHORT COURSE. It shot a perfect 125 both times when I shot this drill. You may want to give it to your friend as a way to practice and compare different ammo.
RANGE: 3 yards
5 rounds strong hand only---one handed grip
5 hands weak hand only-----one handed grip

RANGE: 7 yards
4 shots fired double tapping-two handed grip
6 shots failure to stop drill( two shots to the body, one to the
head )--two handed grip

Range: 10 yards
5 shots fired double and then triple tapping--two handed grip

I came up with this course based on the 30 round drill may agency uses. The short 3 yard drill occurs more often than you think and you may actually have to shoot one handed if you are struggling or fiend off an attacks.
The 7 yard drill is a very common range for a gunfight and the failure to stop drills make a lot of sense with low powered firearms.
We practice it with the .40 S&W caliber, so it is even more important with the Tomcat's .32ACP.
In a defensive situation, 10 yards is enough distance for your friend to back off and run. Not engaging when you are defending yourself and alone is often the better choice.

The other .32ACP is a BERETTA 82 Chettah model. I bought it because I could not find .380 ammo anywhere at a reasonable price doing the OBAMA AMMO SCARE. I could find .32ACP, even at WALMART. If we go through this again, at least I will able to find affordably priced ammo.

Just a suggestion. I hope it helps.

Jim

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