CANADA: It's no wonder firearms owners are a little gun-shy


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gun-fucious
January 29, 2003, 04:24 PM
It's no wonder firearms owners are a little gun-shy
Registry has a lot of people wondering what the government really wants. Danielle Smith explains.
_
Danielle Smith
Calgary Herald
http://www.canada.com/search/story.aspx?id=5fc8b6b2-f546-46a2-881d-9fe6dc121864

Thursday, January 23, 2003


Anti-gun zealots who say owners are paranoid for opposing the federal firearms registry may think twice when they hear Brian Ward's story.

On the evening of Dec. 18, 2002, four officers from the Oceanside RCMP detachment on Vancouver Island entered Ward's home executing a search warrant in an attempt to find a missing firearm.

Keep in mind, this was not a gun that had been used in the commission of a crime. Ward was not under investigation for harming someone else, holding up a bank or for threatening anyone. This was a paperwork problem. The disputed firearm was one of three police contend Ward had in his possession because he was selling them for another man.

Staff Sgt. Luther Cutts said the other man was legally ordered not to own guns because of a domestic dispute. When the prohibition order was signed, the man's three handguns became restricted, unregistered firearms. The RCMP gave him 30 days to sell the handguns to a qualified buyer or forfeit them.

Ward agreed to sell the man's firearms and arrived at the police station to claim them. Unfortunately, Cutts said a junior officer made a mistake and released the guns to Ward before they were properly re-registered.

When the detachment realized its error, the police phoned Ward to straighten it out. That's where the stories diverge. One gun was found to be registered to a new owner in Nanaimo, and although the Firearms Centre wasn't pleased with the sloppy way it was transferred, it was satisfied to leave it with the new owner. Ward handed over the second gun. The third one was missing. Ward claims he never had it, the police say he did.

Because of legal considerations, neither side will elaborate on the discrepancy. However, Cutts said he spoke to Ward at least 15 times to try to get him to return the third gun, to no avail. That's when they went to his home with a search warrant.

If this version of the story is accurate, it suggests Ward is the dumbest criminal in British Columbia. He picks up a restricted firearm from the police station, then refuses to register it and lies about owning it?

That's unlikely. Ward is a veteran firearms instructor and is meticulous about handling restricted guns.

Last year, someone left a handgun in pieces in a box on his doorstep and, not knowing its history, he did an amnesty request (a process where the police run a check on the gun to ensure it hasn't been used in a crime, then allow it to be registered by a new owner). Ward filled out the paperwork, only to discover it was registered to someone else. The firearms officer told him to turn it in to the local RCMP detachment to sort it out.

However, because Ward didn't have transport authorization or the proper paperwork, he asked the RCMP to come to his home to take it away, which they did.

This man is a stickler for the rules.

The week before Christmas, Ward was in Nanaimo shopping when four officers came to his home with a search warrant.

Although his wife, Carol, demanded to stay and oversee the search, the police told her to go outside or she'd be arrested. Then, they searched the home. According to family friend Norm Minard, the RCMP took the couple's firearms, ammunition and registration papers, guns, gun powder, primers and registration papers that Ward had been storing for other people, Ward's diary cataloguing the contact he'd had with police leading up to the search, personal telephone numbers and addresses and gun club papers and records. Then, bizarrely, a bullet collection, books, bullet moulds, a portable search light, certificates, diplomas and even a decorative scrimshaw powder horn hung as artwork on the wall.

It sort of sounds like a scene from the movie Gangs of New York, doesn't it -- where the local authorities show up to "help" and end up looting instead?

The RCMP forwarded the results of their investigation to the B.C. attorney general on Jan. 11, so the Crown could assess the case and decide whether to lay charges.

At first blush, it looks as though they have a lot to go on. Although the RCMP never found the missing third handgun, they claim to have found many guns on the premises that violated safe storage rules.

Minard is skeptical. He says his friend stores all his working firearms in a custom-built gun room with a five-centimetre-thick solid wood door in a metal frame reinforced with steel, secured on two hasps with military locks and door handle. He estimates it would take an hour to break into it.

Ward does have a collection of firearms and bullets on display in his basement: the guns were deactivated and used for instructional purposes. The bullets were also a teaching aid; they contained no primer or powder, and were wired onto display boards mounted on racks on the walls. At least, they were on display until they were confiscated.

So, why did the RCMP take all of these items when they were just looking for a single unregistered handgun?

According to Cutts, it's just like a drug bust where the police are looking for heroin -- if they find cocaine or other drugs, they're obliged to seize them, too.

That's a strange analogy. Heroin and cocaine are still illegal -- long guns, portable search lights and ornamental cow horns are not.

Still think those gun owners are paranoid?

Ward has retained Edmonton lawyer Richard Fritze to help him get his property back.

We'll keep you posted.

smithd@theherald.southam.ca

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Dave P
January 29, 2003, 05:07 PM
"Although the RCMP never found the missing third handgun, they claim to have found many guns on the premises that violated safe storage rules."


Looks like the good old RCMP justified their existance one more time!

Peetmoss
January 29, 2003, 05:11 PM
Let the seziures begin :fire: :cuss:

PATH
January 29, 2003, 05:26 PM
Thank God we at least have a Constitution. It is a matter of the RCMP being used to intimidate people. Orwellian ain't it!

Airwolf
January 29, 2003, 05:48 PM
Ward is a veteran firearms instructor and is meticulous about handling restricted guns.

Something about "government making an example" comes to mind....

Repeat after me: Registration leads to Confiscation. Period. End of story. It may be 5, 10 or 20 years after they get your name and address, but it will always happen.

sixgun_symphony
January 29, 2003, 06:36 PM
Thank God we at least have a Constitution. It is a matter of the RCMP being used to intimidate people. Orwellian ain't it!

The Left has always produced judges that would "interpret" the constitution in ways that will help their cause.

The 9th Circuit is a classic example.

cheygriz
January 29, 2003, 09:12 PM
Sounds like the RCMP are taking lessons from the U.S. Treasury Dept., BATF

Standing Wolf
January 29, 2003, 09:34 PM
Canadian vacation? What Canadian vacation? Who said anything about a Canadian vacation? I don't visit socialist hell holes.

jmbg29
January 29, 2003, 10:46 PM
What Standing Wolf said.

The :cuss:ers are only 2 1/2 hours north of me, and I wouldn't give them a nickel of my money, not even if you held a gun to my head.

Bomb Kanada!:fire: :fire: :fire:

Autolite
January 29, 2003, 11:51 PM
This is exactly how the Canadian government intended the new laws to work. There will be no mass confiscations in Canada. Owners will lose their guns over paperwork foul-ups and 'storage infractions'. It will be done bit-by-bit over a great length of time. On a side note, part of your firearm licence agreement with the government is that by being a gun owner, you are subject to random searches without suspicion of having done anything wrong. As I understand the law, the RCMP didn't need a warrant to conduct a search. Possession of a firearms licence means you've agreed to relieve the police of the responsibility of obtaining a search warrant or even needing to give a reason for conducting the search ...

(OOps! I think I've said too much already. Someone's knocking at the door... Gotta run!!!)

Gnull
January 29, 2003, 11:56 PM
Makes me sad. Gun ownership pretty much makes you a criminal in the eyes of the Canadian gov. The price of self defense is forking over your rights. Is it just me, or do those two contradict.

Canada True North not so Strong and Free... great.. now I'm probably being profiled for 'possible aggressive thoughts against the supreme leaders", or somesuch by CSIS

Cain R
January 30, 2003, 12:04 AM
Hmm, bomb Canada eh?

Well, last time I checked our Federal Government hadn't roasted to death a group women and children in order to save them from abuse, nor murdered a mother holding her baby in the steps of her own house:uhoh: .

A proverb about those living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones comes to mind.

Do I or any of the people I know support the Federal Government? Absolutely NOT. But making a statement like "Bomb Kanada" really pisses me off.

So, bomb Canada eh? If you had a clue you may come to realize that Canada is ruled by a power base soley from Ontario, they make the rules for the rest of the contry. Keep in mind we have exactly two member of the ruling Liberals elected here in Alberta.

So if your going to bomb anything bomb Ottawa and those elist Liberal Bas****'s.

Not to mention it would get DAMN cold on the eastern seaboard when a few of those stray bombs "accidently" hit all the natural gas pipe lines from Alberta that feed into the US.:evil:

Gnull
January 30, 2003, 12:12 AM
You Can bomb Ottowa.. just leave Mississauga out of it...

Gnull
January 30, 2003, 12:13 AM
err Ottawa.. spelling is not always my strong suit...

Autolite
January 30, 2003, 12:14 AM
Geez, lighten up a little. I think the term 'Bomb Canada' really means 'initiate a limited collateral damage pre-emptive strike over certain specific regions of eastern Ontario'. Don't take things so literally dude ...

Airwolf
January 30, 2003, 12:31 AM
On a side note, part of your firearm licence agreement with the government is that by being a gun owner, you are subject to random searches without suspicion of having done anything wrong. As I understand the law, the RCMP didn't need a warrant to conduct a search. Possession of a firearms licence means you've agreed to relieve the police of the responsibility of obtaining a search warrant or even needing to give a reason for conducting the search

That's the first time I've heard about that little bombshell.

So, you sign your right to due process away and allow the cops to enter and search your home without a warrant or you fail to register and run the risk of having the cops enter and search your home.

What a crock!

And there are still Canadian 'subjects' that think the Firearms Registry is still a good idea?

http://flymeaway.net/images/princess_bride1.jpg

Gnull
January 30, 2003, 12:37 AM
Welcome to Canada. Oh by the way, leave your rights at the door. It's coming if this crap continues...*sigh*

Freedom in theSkies
January 30, 2003, 02:13 AM
The ers are only 2 1/2 hours north of me, and I wouldn't give them a nickel of my money, not even if you held a gun to my head.

Yep, thats' it commit suicide...:confused:
Canada is the #1 trading partner of the U.S.
You probably have untold Canadian made products in your home at this very minute!
Better hold thew gun to your head whist running feverishly thru your home looking for the Canadian trash...:neener:

C"mon, think about it...If the Canadian populace is disarmed, it just makes it safer for U.S. troops when occupying the "most northern state";)

Autolite: CainR is a dudette...And a dern fine one at that!
Thank God we at least have a Constitution.
There is a Constitution in Kanada too...It just favours the majority of closed minded wierdos that thnk guns are bad.
Sucks to be us!...
On a side note, part of your firearm licence agreement with the government is that by being a gun owner, you are subject to random searches without suspicion of having done anything wrong.
Autolite: Like the story goes... The only way they'll get my guns, is when they pry 'em from my frozen blood soaked hands...
MOLON LABE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

armabill
January 30, 2003, 12:01 PM
Really sorry to hear about all the trouble you guys in Canada are having. It's easy to talk if you don't live there. I don't like any kind of gun bans/regulations even world wide.

Look at the people in Australia and England. Very bad for gun owners and good for the criminals. I don't get it. Can't they see what's happening in front of their eyes. Are they afraid to say that they made a mistake with the gun laws? Vanity?

CZ-75
January 30, 2003, 01:07 PM
This is exactly how the Canadian government intended the new laws to work. There will be no mass confiscations in Canada. Owners will lose their guns over paperwork foul-ups and 'storage infractions'. It will be done bit-by-bit over a great length of time.

They started with MARSTAR, from what I heard.

News like this is par for the course now.

jmbg29
January 30, 2003, 01:15 PM
You probably have untold Canadian made products in your home at this very minute!Now that you mention it, I am going to have to look for a new supply of toilet paper. Sucks to be us!...You got that right.So if your going to bomb anything bomb Ottawa and those elist Liberal Bas****'s.Deal. Now quit whining and learn how to duck.:neener:

BOMB KANADA!:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

larry_minn
January 30, 2003, 02:11 PM
I used to go into Canada at least twice a year. I bought stuff worth THOUSANDS of dollars up there. I have not been back for 8yrs and not bought a new major item since then. I do have 6 items that cost over $2000 new in my shed that were made in Canada. I bought 4 of them used and the others at dealers in the states. I could save $$$ by picking it up myself but I dislike leaving my guns in Grand Forks and then having my truck dug thru. Then having to pay the BRIBE to get back to USA. (You must pay cash and don't get a receipt so that makes it a bribe to me) Plus know too many folks who have had their car taken down and then be given a card with number of insepctors friends who will come and put the tires/etc back on for a BIG price.

Airwolf
January 30, 2003, 04:39 PM
I don't get it. Can't they see what's happening in front of their eyes. Are they afraid to say that they made a mistake with the gun laws? Vanity?

Have you ever seen or heard of a politician saying "Sorry, it was a mistake." Well, except *after* the trial for campaign finance violations, influence peddling, kickbacks, the divorce, etc...

As for some law they fanatically supported/authored or bloated bureaucracy they were responsible for creating... The sun will burn out before they admit they were wrong.

Along the same lines, have you ever known a government program to simply be terminated? Almost always they end up transmuting into something else or being absorbed into another, larger agency.

Watch-Six
January 30, 2003, 05:06 PM
I have been back and forth across the Canadian/US border many times. I have been over and back only ONCE since 9/11. I have never needed any ID but my drivers license before, but I had to wait for an hour at Canadian immigration that time to get in. I didn't bring my passport because I have never needed it before. It was a real pain, but nothing like coming BACK into the US. For a while I didn't think they were going to let me back in. The US border guards thoroughly searched my car and my "papers were not in order." After all I had been out of the USA for a few hours. That coupled with me being a 50+ year old grandfather with valid ID, obviously an American, traveling in a car with US plates in the company of my similarly intimidating grandmotherly wife didn't seem to matter. This year I traveled extensively in Europe with MINIMAL attention to my passport by anyone in several countries. Flying into New York from Amsterdam started the circus again. This time after multiple searchs I narrowly escaped with my life and "contraband" Dutch tulip bulbs. :rolleyes: Canadian politics is a mess, but we have nothing to brag about either. Look at Canada. We will be lucky if the USA is only that bad if something isn't done to stop the insanity. Watch-Six

Jmurman
January 30, 2003, 05:17 PM
Repeat after me: Registration leads to Confiscation. Period. End of story. It may be 5, 10 or 20 years after they get your name and address, but it will always happen.

unfortunately very true.

Gnull
January 30, 2003, 05:50 PM
I don't get it. Can't they see what's happening in front of their eyes. Are they afraid to say that they made a mistake with the gun laws? Vanity?

I wish we could. Everyday I see more and more of my fellow Canadians blinded by the false representation that firearms are inherently evil, and that banning them would make all the bad things in the world *poof* - go away.

God help me if I try to bring up using them to keep democracy safe against tyranny. In response I get the "you must be crazy look" from all the sheeple.

It makes me sick, makes me want to yell at the top of my lungs, makes me want to just run and leave it all. It's coming. Already we have the legislature to allow police to search Canadian gun-owning homes without warrant, under the assumption that its to ensure that the gun is "safe". Any warnings against it hit deaf ears, that "anyone who wants something that can kill should put up with it. One can kill with many things, and I don't see the police conducting random searches to make sure I have my car keys secured.

The worst part of it is that there are a good number of firearm owners in Canada, estimated to be between 2 million to 4 million out of a population of around 30 million. No the problem is not a lack of people; it is a lack of voice. We have no voice, even while I see those of you in the US complain about the NRA's complacency, at least you have something like that.

I don't know, something needs to change, but without voice nothing will be done.

Sorry for unloading, it's just that I don't have too many people on my side of the border to talk to about this.

Autolite
January 30, 2003, 06:58 PM
Let's just all move to Saskatchewan! They'll never catch us there. Most eastern Liberals can't even spell 'Saskatchewan' let alone find it on a map. The whole province is shaped like one humungus long outdoor rifle range. It'd be perfect !!!

JackM
January 31, 2003, 12:18 AM
If you do move to Saskatchewan, we've got a nice little indoor range at Qu'Appelle. Beats shooting outdoors in January.

Liberals shouldn't play with guns.
Jack

jmbg29
January 31, 2003, 12:29 AM
Qu'AppelleThey speak frog in Sask too now?!? GAAAAAAAAA! :cuss:

JackM
January 31, 2003, 12:36 AM
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Who said anything about speaking french??????????

Jack

Freedom in theSkies
January 31, 2003, 03:00 AM
Here is our voice...

www.nfa.ca

Our local range just gained association with 'em. They are all we have, so please support them with membership. They have a huge wealth of information.
If anyone will turn back unneccesary gun control, I think it will be them.

Autolite
January 31, 2003, 02:31 PM
I think we should try and keep a lid on bashing Francophone Canadians. I've personaly a met French Canadian who was not a pacifist-gun-hating-ranting-Liberal, (and I got his autograph to prove it too ...)

dustind
January 31, 2003, 10:19 PM
NELSON T. “PETE” SHIELDS, CHAIRMAN EMERITUS, HANDGUN CONTROL, INC.

"We'll take one step at a time, and the first is necessarily very modest. We'll have to start working again to strengthen the law, and then again to strengthen the next law and again and again. Our ultimate goal, total control of handguns, is going to take time. The first problem is to slow down production and sales. Next is to get registration. The final problem is to make possession of all handguns and ammunition totally illegal.”

BlackArrow
January 31, 2003, 11:32 PM
MAKE ALL THE RULES/LAWS YOU WANT. I'll do what I think is right.:evil:

TheOtherOne
February 2, 2003, 02:35 PM
BOMB KANADA! They got it coming for what they did to the Baldwins! :D

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