Serious Sierra Warning???


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lizziedog1
February 15, 2012, 09:06 PM
I used my friend's Midway catalog to order some bullets. The bullets are 30 caliber, 85grain round nose. I was going to give them a try in my 30 Carbine.

I got the bullets today. On the side of the bullet box in red letters is the following warning: Handgun Use Only.

Yes, they are listed in the handgun bullet section of the catalog. But there are other bullets there that can be used in rifles. 35 and 44 caliber bullets come to mind.

I also decided to check the Hodgdon Data Website. The bullet in question is listed along with different powder charges. I guess Hodgdon doesn't have a problem using this bullet in 30 Carbine Cartridges.

Should I try these bullets in my Carbine?

Has anyone here tried them?

What could be the possible danger, if any, in using them?

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SHR970
February 15, 2012, 09:24 PM
They work fine in a 30 carbine.

The Sierra bullet has a thin jacket for opening up at handgun velocities (7.63 Lugar aka 7.63x21, and 7.62x25 Mauser and Tok). If driven too fast the bullet will not hold up; they can even become blue mist out of the end of your barrel. It will expand well out of a 30 carbine pistol and will expand violently driven out of a 30 carbine. Makes one hell of a mess out of a 20 lb. watermelon at 50 yards.

The warning is basically the short version of the Speer warning for their Part #1835 110 Gr. HP bullet. Speer's warning is to limit the velocity to under 2900 fps. because it can fly apart if driven much faster. This bullet also makes the 30 carbine a formidable close in weapon.

Edit: If you are worried, I'll take them off of your hands and add them to my stock of the 85 gr. bullets I already have. I assure you they will be put to good use.

Scott_R
February 15, 2012, 10:02 PM
If it were me, I'd call Sierra and ask them. They're quite helpful; and like you, I don't know the answer.

SHR970
February 15, 2012, 10:20 PM
If you check their website you'll find their B.C table goes to "Above 1400 fps". Hodgdon's data for this weight is listed at a hair over 2450 fps. Pretty obvious that they expect this application. But feel free to call or email them and ask; they'll give you the 411 pretty fast.

Part #8005 (http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&stock_num=8005&bullettype=1)

jcwit
February 17, 2012, 11:00 AM
If driven too fast the bullet will not hold up; they can even become blue mist out of the end of your barrel.

Really? Blue Mist, heh!

SHR970
February 17, 2012, 01:58 PM
Bullets driven too fast can disintegrate in flight; this phenomenon has been seen a lot with certain varmint bullets. They can and will leave a vapor trail as the molten lead flys through the air. This has been described by many as "Blue Mist" for the blue-grey color people are seeing.

You can call Sierra and ask what the result will be if you drive the bullet in question to speeds in excess of 3500 fps.; speeds attainable in a 30-06 with 110 gr. bullets. Please; let us all know what their answer is.

jcwit
February 17, 2012, 03:31 PM
Well in talking to Sierra, its not possible using the 30 Carbine caliber, can't get that kind of vel. using that case.

Yes it would be "possible" with a 30/06, but according to Sierra more than likely the base cup would blow out and the lead core would continue out the barrel, would the core blow apart? creating the "blue mist"? again they said its "possible" but they have never experimented with that so can not confirm it. The tech I spoke with also made note this would be more likely to happen if the bore was rough and then there is also the possiblity of the jacket becoming lodged in the bore with the rest of the bullet going downrange.

There's the answer!

jcwit
February 17, 2012, 03:39 PM
Bullets driven too fast can disintegrate in flight; this phenomenon has been seen a lot with certain varmint bullets. They can and will leave a vapor trail as the molten lead flys through the air. This has been described by many as "Blue Mist" for the blue-grey color people are seeing.

Absolutly! I have first hand knowledge of this with varmit bullets and varmit rounds. But a .308 85 gr. rd nose jacketed bullet is a far cry from a varmit bullet and the 30 cal. Carbine is even a further cry from a varmit round/cartridge.

SHR970
February 17, 2012, 03:42 PM
As to 30 carb. velocity I had stated Hodgdon's data for this weight is listed at a hair over 2450 fps.

The "For Pistols Only" comes from the fact that some people might try them in things like a 30-06; that's why I said ask about 3500 fps. velocities. I'm sure that's also why Speer gives their warning on the one 110 gr. bullet #1835.

As to the other stuff; yes.....bad things can happen if you try to drive it too hard. I wonder what it would look like coming out of a 30-378? :what:

jcwit
February 17, 2012, 03:47 PM
I should have stated the tech stated, in the neighborhood of 3500 fps or higher.

SHR970
February 17, 2012, 04:49 PM
So back to the OP's question.

Do we agree that this particular bullet is safe / intended for use in cartridges up to the 30 carbine?

Do we agree that firing this bullet out of a 308 or larger class cartridge is a BAD idea and hence Sierra's statement on their box?

jcwit
February 17, 2012, 08:21 PM
I would use it in a 30 cal. Carbine with no worries. Frankly, I would also use it in a very light load for small game in a rifle caliber using pistol powder and dacron as a filler. Standard rifle loads, No.

lizziedog1
February 17, 2012, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the replies.

I am going to load a half dozen and go out into the desert and give them a try. I'll aim at a dirt bank and see if they even make it.

If it works, it should be a dynamite load for jackrabbits.

SHR970
February 17, 2012, 08:49 PM
Why not bring a small watermelon or cantaloupe and back it with a bag of newspaper to catch what is left of the bullet? Then you can see if a) you can hit a small target with the load & b) if you can make a good enough mess. I'm sure the local bugs will clean it up for you later.

alsaqr
February 17, 2012, 09:06 PM
When i started reloading for my .220 Swift in the mid 50s there were some spectacular "blue mists". We called them blue streaks. Went through the same thing in the 90s with my .22 Cheetah: 4,450 fps does strange stuff to thin jacket bullets.

lizziedog1
February 20, 2012, 12:00 AM
I just reloaded a half dozen rounds with these bullets. Tomorrow I'll try them out. Wish me luck.

jcwit
February 20, 2012, 12:10 AM
what was your load, powder and grains?

SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE
February 20, 2012, 01:04 AM
I believe that the cause for concern is not just the stress on the bullet from the powder charge , but also the additional stress on the bullet from the faster rotational speed ! I would think that the centrifugal /centripetal ( I always confuse the two) force would tear a lightly constructed bullet apart ! Kevin

lizziedog1
February 20, 2012, 09:42 AM
I realize Sierra has a warning on these bullets. But, Hodgdon does list them on their website's loading data for the 30 Carbine.

I'm just going to fire a couple of rounds into a bank of dirt to see if they even function.

You all will know the reults in a few hours.

lizziedog1
February 20, 2012, 04:47 PM
I fired several rounds and still have all my fingers and vision in both eyes.:D

The round cycled, but barely. I was using a load that was near maximum for 110 grain bullets and I guess the lighter bullets will require a tad more "juice". They cycled, but not with the authority of the other loads. At least the brass was easy to find.

Two shots were fired into a dirt bank at about twenty yards. The bullets hit. They survived the flight.

Then I found am old toy horse made of wood. I placed it on a rock and paced off a couple of dozen steps. I hit it with the first shot. The bullet entered one side and blew the other side out. I estimate the horse was about four or five inches wide were it was hit.

I might have found a good desert companion for my explorations. An M1 Carbine on the shoulder and a 22 Rimfire revolver on the hip.

SHR970
February 20, 2012, 07:26 PM
A maximum load for the 110 gr. isn't what would normally be considered a starting load for the 85 gr.; at least where H110 / W296 is concerned. You might want to bump the charge up a bit....you have some head room to work with. Max. velocity doesn't always equal best accuracy and reliability. You seem to be on the bottom end of reliably cycling the action so start by fixing that issue. Somewhere along the way you'll find a recipie that your gun likes.

lizziedog1
February 23, 2012, 08:46 AM
I finally called Sierra about this bullet. The tech said the only concern he had was that even at 30 Carbine velocity the bullet wouldn't penetrate much due to its thin jacket.

I told him my primary use will be for jackrabbits. He said it might just be perfect for that. He also said that richocettes would also be minimized due to the bullet coming apart on impact.

Now to look for a volunteer hare.

When I was out hunting upland game I would almost be tripping over those darn rabbits. Now I can't find any.:confused:

cfullgraf
February 23, 2012, 12:50 PM
Smart rabbits.:)

Let us know how they work when you do find a volunteer.

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