Okay, new ethics thread that Art can close. :D


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MCgunner
February 16, 2012, 02:40 PM
So, that "ethical shot" thread and the "shotguns on carp" thread and the "shooting coyotes" thread all merged in my head just now. I'm thinkin' some folks who don't wanna kill fur seals might not see ANYTHING wrong with shooting carp and letting 'em rot.

So, what's the difference here? Carp are animals, I spent four years at Texas A&M studying all about fish and how to manage fisheries. I owned an aquarium store for a while. I'm a fish guy or as one of my terrestrial professors used to say, an "aquatic type". :D They're not furry, nor "cute" to anyone except some species are to ME. I mean, ya gotta love a blue discus, right?

Anyway, bow fishing for a guy like me that doesn't eat the meat would be considered a depredation of the resource if it were a game bird. You just shoot it for the fun of shooting it. I ain't going to eat a carp, don't wanna deal with the bones. I have shot buffalo suckers in the past for trotline bait. That's a legit use of the resource, but I don't see USING that resource as necessary. Buffalo suckers are not game fish, thus the laws on fishing do not apply to them, THAT is the reason bow fishing them in Texas is allowed in the first place! But, if they looked like little fur seals, would some of you guys be crying foul over shooting them for the fun of it?

Just a thought to expand upon. I see predator hunting, even though I personally don't do it and don't think I'd get anything out of it, as no worse than bow fishing. And, well, those little prairie dogs are danged cute, ain't they? Guys can wipe out a whole prairie dog town in an afternoon, I'm told, shooting them at long range with .22 centerfires. Again, I'm not interested in it, but I don't think it's any worse than the bow fishing I've done, right?

Think logically, now. Don't be a liberal democrat and think with emotion. :rolleyes:

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hogshead
February 16, 2012, 02:49 PM
Carp are an non-native invasive species.However I do see your point.

MCgunner
February 16, 2012, 02:51 PM
Okay, then, even though I do eat garfish, some don't. AND, buffalo suckers are native. Too many bones in that thing for ME to mess with.

Loosedhorse
February 16, 2012, 03:04 PM
You just shoot it for the fun of shooting it.Just me personally, but I don't shoot anything "just for the fun of shooting it."

What I like about hunting is hunting: the challenge. If gets to be too routine, I can make it more challenging: switch from scoped rifle to handgun, or to black-powder, or bow; switch to a more difficult animal. The key is always going to be: finding the game, getting close (or getting it close to you), and then deciding whether or not you can take the shot. Heck, I can have a lot of challenge in VT hunting squirrels with an open-sighted .22 revolver.

I guess a lot of things get called hunting that I don't consider hunting. You want to shoot invasive carp, or prarie dogs that are a hazard to cattle, or destructive feral pigs, fine. Heck, get a helicopter and shoot at them with a Ma Deuce. And don't forget the hand-grenades.

But that's pest control, not hunting. The point of pest control is eliminating the pest. By definition, a pest animal is not wanted or respected.

The point of sport hunting is the hunting, and we should respect the game we hunt and the traditions of hunting.

If any of you are involved in commercial hunting or sustenance hunting, then the point of the hunt is for you is money or food, respectively--I don't think we're going to see a lot of wastage there. And I would think that respect for your quarry and for tradition would still come into play.

Weedy
February 16, 2012, 03:13 PM
Hey MC

I can totally see your point. Kind of similar to the guy who told me killing a coyote is like swatting a wasp, or whatever, on the "coyote" thread.

I feel like (I think) you do...taking a life is taking a life, whether it's big or small or ugly or cute or whatever else. However, I do think that a coyote's life, or a wolf or bear or even a pig, is more significant to me because of the level of intelligence of the animal, and whether that animal has the brain capacity to possibly get some enjoyment from its life. When I see every day how my dogs behave, I swear that they can think and they have thoughts going through those little brains. So yeah shooting a dog-like animal would bother me a lot. I will never hunt bears (unless they're hunting me).

I know that if you look at it from a purely logical standpoint, in the grand scheme of the universe, a human being's existence is really no more significant than that of a single bacteria. That may be a contoversial statement depending on your religious beliefs and whatnot, but it's what I believe and that can't be changed. And I do respect people who have different beliefs than I do.

I'm a fish guy as well, and I tend to pretty much release all fish I catch as well. Suffering has a lot to do with it too...I can't stand to even see a nightcrawler writhing on a hot sidewalk, I either put it in the grass or, if that's not possible, step on it to put it out of its misery. I have a hard time impaling one on a hook so I use artificial bait. So that's me I guess. Unfortunately its pretty hard to convince people to be nicer to animals without seeming like a big hypocrite, since I do eat them. And swat them when they bite me.

Anyway sorry for the long post. I firmly believe in treating animals humanely, and I sure as HELL am not a liberal. Having some compassion for life has nothing to do with politics. :)

Loosedhorse
February 16, 2012, 03:18 PM
its pretty hard to convince people to be nicer to animals without seeming like a big hypocrite, since I do eat them. And swat them when they bite me.Not hypocritical at all, IMHO.

Mike1234567
February 16, 2012, 03:23 PM
Killing to harvest the meat or to minimize damage to one's property and livestock or to decrease invasive species is one thing... okay, it's three things.:) But to intentionally choose a method which allows or causes unnecessary suffering when other viable options are available is an entirely different thing and is simple cruelty.

Okay... time for my tree hugging session followed by my granola and milk snack. Where's my huggy bear?!?:D

Ankeny
February 16, 2012, 03:32 PM
Okay, new ethics thread that Art can close. :D The thing about ethics threads is they almost always get closed on any hunting forum. FWIW, I used to shoot carp with a bow...it's a lot of fun. I have shot literally thousands of p-dogs through the decades. I stack coyotes up like cord wood, and I used to sell dead jack rabbits that I "spotlighted" by the hordes to a mink farm. But I try to avoid head and neck shots on big game animals.

Did I mention I have ripped the lips on a bazzilion fish then winched them along behind the boat? ;)

MCgunner
February 16, 2012, 05:16 PM
Did I mention I have ripped the lips on a bazzilion fish then winched them along behind the boat?

LOL.


However, I do think that a coyote's life, or a wolf or bear or even a pig, is more significant to me because of the level of intelligence of the animal, and whether that animal has the brain capacity to possibly get some enjoyment from its life.

Now, I used to feed earth worms to my Oscars in the aquarium store. Those things are neat, very aggressive, and one can almost bond with them. BUT, just like with my cats or dog, this is anthropomorphizing. But, I've always figured that ALL cephalic organisms (eliminates the cnidarians and such) could "think" or even have emotion in one form or another. Just because we as humans can't recognize it means nothing.

Shooting a fish with a bow is done in an area of the fishes body that is not immediately lethal. Even catching a fish on rod and real, I toss 'em on ice to die a cold death without thinkin' about it. If you are such a carrying person (any of you, not being specific), can you do that to a living organism that does have a cephalic nervous system and CAN feel pain? Do you freak when the frog legs you're frying jump out of the pan? All these human emotions are illogical IMHO. They're total emotion brought upon by a human's tendency to anthropomorphize. Heck, I do that with motorcycles. My motorcycles have names, "Red" (a red 01 SV650S) and Booger (a booger colored faded green 2000 KLR 650). I often come home telling the wife how Booger enjoyed the ride. :rolleyes: Of course, that's all joking, but it's human nature. Heck, Davy Crockett called his rifle "Ol' Betsy". This tendency gets muddled into reality when humans think of animals, though, animals where they can SEE some sign of intelligence, mammals in particular. BUt, it's my contention that just because you cannot SEE signs that an animal such as a fish has any sort of thought or feeling, doesn't mean it's not there. How could one tell? Animal behaviorists have been wrong many times on these things and they're the so called "experts".

How many here have taken racoons in a trap? How many have known a pet racoon? Those are one "smart" critter, cuter than a dog or cat IMHO. Yet, I've trapped 'em for the pelts back when the pelts were bringing 40 bucks a pop in top shape. That was late '70s, early '80s. I used spring traps on 'em. Could YOU do that? Is that unethical?

Just trying to get people to think with their minds, that's all. Seems to me there might be a bit of hypocrisy going around on all this ethics of hunting stuff.

Mike1234567
February 16, 2012, 05:50 PM
Where's the hypocrisy you speak of? I don't eat much meat and what I do consume is from a kosher butcher... much more humane kills than a typical slaughter house. I don't wear fur of any kind. I don't hunt nor fish. Don't get me wrong... if I had to I would. All I'm saying is that I'd use every viable humane tactic at my disposal before I would resort to other options because I very strongly believe that intentionally choosing methods with increased suffering is cruel. What's hypocritical about that?

I agree that just because we can't always see a certain degree of intelligence or emotion it doesn't mean it's not there. The real conundrum here, and what really troubles my mind, is why would you or anyone else realize this and still choose crueler methods of animal dispatchment?

MCgunner
February 16, 2012, 06:08 PM
Where's the hypocrisy you speak of? I don't eat much meat and what I do consume is from a kosher butcher... much more humane kills than a typical slaughter house. I don't wear fur of any kind. I don't hunt nor fish. Don't get me wrong... if I had to I would. All I'm saying is that I'd use every viable humane tactic at my disposal before I would resort to other options because I very strongly believe that intentionally choosing methods with increased suffering is cruel. What's hypocritical about that?

So, you're a PETA troll? I'm confused. You're on a hunting board, you don't hunt. Hmmmmm.....

How do they kill FISH to make it Kosher?

Wes Mantooth
February 16, 2012, 06:29 PM
Feral pigs, p-dogs and Asian carp and some other species need population control.

So your telling me that there are invasive species that are threatening to destroy your way of life and ecosystem and you do not take up arms to defeat them?:scrutiny:

Why are some species of animals extinct but not these? Because we haven't madethem extinct...yet.:neener:

MCgunner
February 16, 2012, 06:33 PM
There's a cowbird control program in TP&W. They try to control invasive species even in non-game birds! Hey, it ain't ME. Also, european collard doves are an invasive species that are taking on like gang busters, no limit or season on 'em I'm told, but haven't looked the season thing up. They're all over my place. They're fun to shoot, bigger than mourning or white wing doves. Hell, I'm hoping they take over like the hogs have. ROFL! That right there is not very PC with the wildlife biologists, but I like hogs and ringneck doves.

jmr40
February 16, 2012, 06:48 PM
I don't have any problems killing mice or roaches in my home to prevent them from causing damage or harming my family. I feel the same about shooting some larger animals such as rabid racoon's crow's, coyotes, feral hogs, dogs, or cats. They cause crop damage, kill wildlife and domestic pets and could harm my family either by spreading disease or attacking my grandkids.

No one seems to mind paying someone else to exterminate pests, but take offense when others shoot them.

Weedy
February 16, 2012, 06:49 PM
I agree with population control, or complete elimination of, invasive species. Feral hogs, asian carp, snakeheads, etc. I would try to be as humane as possible but if it threatens the native species, yeah, take out as many as you can! Then again, when the Bering land bridge was exposed during the ice age, I guess all the animals that came here from Asia were invasive....not trying to start another THING, but man this could go on and on (and it has, and it will). We all have different opinions, we all like guns, I value ALL you guys opinions on everything I ask about on this site!

You know, speaking of animals that that could not show emotions...whales/dolphins are some of the very smartest mammals and can't show emotions, at least via facial expressions.

Loosedhorse
February 16, 2012, 06:51 PM
You're on a hunting board, you don't hunt.What would be the problem with that? And what's with calling everyone a PETA troll?I agree that just because we can't always see a certain degree of intelligence or emotion it doesn't mean it's not there.I think it is easy to WAY over-anthropomorphize animals.still choose crueler methodsI think we should be careful about assigning a "cruelness" scale to culling methods. No one has suggested a method intended to cause pain--to me, cruelness is mostly a question of intent.

I have in general been more concerned that incompetent or careless attempts to kill an animal (by whatever method) can result in a prolonged death. I'd consider that result always undesirable.

12gaugeTim
February 16, 2012, 08:29 PM
I try to see everything as God's test of my moral integrity, and congratulations, my sir, for you have proved yourself to be one of the most grueling assessments yet. For those of you just tuning in, this MCGunner character recently incited a debate in another thread with a similar topic by twisting the subject matter into an opportunity to display his controversial opinions on how, as he mentions here, his "ethics" extend only to the point of saving him the trouble of blood-trails and other such inconveniences, and he further mentions here that evidently he sees the lives of animals as objects of his amusement, which exist only to the point of a notion of boredom, at which point he ends in a manner that entertains him.

In an attempt to put a premature end to the inevitable calamity I, in a somewhat admittedly sarcastic tone, make a mention of how clubbing seals and skinning them alive for their fur is reproachable. This effort to unite the thread's participants behind a common agreement was in vain, for MCEristicGunner makes the bold claim that he would participate in the seasonly slaughter if he could, and he further notes that it would be with a club, even though his membership in this forum indicates that he almost assuredly owns firearms, which would prove a more humane way of dispatching the seal. I give my opinions and abort all attempts to save the thread. I check up on it, but stay true to my word and post no more. MC makes the same claim as me, but later rejoins the thread.

Now, in this thread MCGunner makes a direct stab at me, probably hoping I will take the bait, which I so weakly have. I cannot sit by and have myself ridiculed by this man so void of passion. I make my case starting with the first notable quote.

But, if they looked like little fur seals, would some of you guys be crying foul over shooting them for the fun of it?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I would, likely along with anybody else who can see how killing something for kicks is wrong. When you're out shooting, if some animal walks out in front of you, do you just kill it there because it's more interesting to watch animals die than it is to watch a can bounce? What for, stress relief? Maybe something happened to you in your past that makes you feel wholesome every time you injure something lower than you. You accosted me on my point of clubbing baby seals and I expect you to respond to my inquiry as well. Quote two.

Think logically, now. Don't be a liberal democrat and think with emotion. :rolleyes:

So you're saying that anyone who thinks with emotion is a "liberal democrat"? That's the most blatant bifurcation I've ever heard. Either you're a liberal democrat or you don't have emotion. Yeah, we're thinking logically now. Emotion is one of the many wonderful things that set us apart from the insuperior species, whom we are supposed to be good stewards of, as ordained in Genesis. Are you saying that when we make decisions about humane aspects of hunting (or killing for fun) we are supposed to remove the "human" part from it? But I guess since I don't have the compassion of a stone I belong in PETA, as you told anyone who disagreed with you in the conflagration of a thread that started this nonsense.

I realize this is probably forum suicide and I'll be banned for this post. But to be honest, I got my point across, so I don't care. Requiescat in pax, 12gaugeTim.

Loosedhorse
February 16, 2012, 08:43 PM
Well, Tim, that's a lot of style to lavish on this thread, and it may be wasted...

But I sure liked it. :)

There is a very viable branch of ethics that claims that our beliefs about what is "right" start with an emotion, a feeling that some action is good or bad; just or unjust. And then we attempt to use logic to figure out why we feel that way.

In other words, it may be that thinking with emotion is the very heart of ethics.

Hunterdad
February 16, 2012, 08:50 PM
I used to fish for carp professionally and I always cringed at the thought of bow fishing. During my outings on the water banks, I have seen thousands of dead carp with holes through them just dumped on the shore to rot.

Carp have gotten blamed for a lot of things due to misinformation. For example, less than a mile from my house is one of the most polluted lakes (Onondaga Lake) in the country. For a while, there were only 3-4 surviving species of fish in the lake and carp was one of them. People were convinced that the carp killed all the other fish since carp can and do thrive in some of the worse water conditions. The bow "fisherman" were cruzing and killing hundreds of them in a single outing. Its just a waste and unethical too me. I asked a bow fisherman why he did it and he told me "its good practice. I'm tired of shooting at targets in my backyard." That just rubbed me the wrong way.

Anyways, for anyone going out to shoot these, try hooking up with a 40# carp and go for the ride. It really is some of the best fishing anyone could ask for. The fight they give is truly impressive.

EDIT: Apparently I should have read the post about shooting carp with a shotgun before posting this. I was referring to the "common carp" not the "Asian carp". I am all for eradicating the Asian carp. If they get into our great lakes, the entire fishery is as good as gone.

sugarmaker
February 16, 2012, 08:57 PM
I'm comfortable with my position near the top of the food chain. I try not to have animals suffer more than necessary. I feel kinda sorry for the worm I break in half to go fishing and probably the mice I feed D-con to die a miserable death. Things I consider pests die and get thrown inrto a hole. I am at least as compassionate as any other carnivore, and my thoughts stop there.

T Bran
February 16, 2012, 09:08 PM
Heck down here carp are an introduced and protected species. You shoot one and if the law dont get you the neighbors are likely to bludgeon you to death.
Two years ago it was colder than normal and the iguanas were falling from the trees like rain some as large as 6' long. These are invasive species as well. The people were taking them into their homes to warm them up so they didnt croak. Pythons have taken over the glades but you cant hunt them unless you have a PHD and a permit.
I hear a lot of if it's legal so those are the rules I follow. Problem is the folks writing the rules couldnt find their hiney with both hands and an anatomy book.

Weedy
February 16, 2012, 09:18 PM
I am at least as compassionate as any other carnivore, and my thoughts stop there.

There is a difference between humans and every other carnivore on the planet. The difference is that we are more intelligent than other carnivores, and therefore we have the mental capacity to know what ethics are in the first place.

Watching a pride of lions slowly kill a cape buffalo can make one say "nature is cruel, just look at the misery that buffalo went through. So if inflict misery upon some animal, I am no worse than the lions."

The lions don't know any better, they are just trying to eat the only food that is an option for them. Coyotes don't know any better. We do.

I can't believe this thread isn't closed yet... :D

12gaugeTim
February 16, 2012, 09:30 PM
Well, Tim, that's a lot of style to lavish on this thread, and it may be wasted...

But I sure liked it. :)

Even if it is pearls unto swine, at least I had pearls to throw in the first place. I should show this to my literature teacher from the 10th grade; he'd get a kick out of it.

MCgunner
February 16, 2012, 09:42 PM
Quote:
You're on a hunting board, you don't hunt.


What would be the problem with that? And what's with calling everyone a PETA troll?

It's not the least bit odd to you that someone hates the thought of hunting, doesn't even FISH, claims he buys his meat blessed and killed by a Rabbi or something, and is prodding the crowd on a hunting board with anti-hunting arguments? I don't KNOW, just seems, er, fishy. Seems like a nice guy, just sayin'.....


There is a difference between humans and every other carnivore on the planet. The difference is that we are more intelligent than other carnivores, and therefore we have the mental capacity to know what ethics are in the first place.

With some, I'm beginning to wonder. :rolleyes:

I can't believe this thread isn't closed yet...

Yep, it's down to name calling and personal attacks. Art must be asleep. At least now I know that some even think bowfishing is immoral. Weird. Don't turn on the Outdoor Channel. They're killing coyotes, fish, all sorts of stuff on there. Even a show called "predator nation".

baylorattorney
February 16, 2012, 09:57 PM
I'll kill anything that can kill me or mine, such as rattlers. I then hang them on the fence so it will bring rain. :)

MCgunner
February 16, 2012, 10:00 PM
Fried rattler is pretty decent. :D

Weedy
February 16, 2012, 10:16 PM
I'll kill anything that can kill me or mine, such as rattlers. I then hang them on the fence so it will bring rain.

Rattlers only bite when they are threatened. Some of you guys make it seem like coyotes are all out stalking children, and rattlers want to crawl into your boot so they can ambush you. Like I said before, the fact that something has the potential to harm you doesn't mean it wants to, or that it will, or that you should kill it on sight.

You must have a Taurus Judge though, from what I've been reading that is the only gun in existence that will kill a snake. Jeez.

I just read that other ethics thread WOW I ain't even going there, that thing is going into no man's land...

EDIT: I do want to try me some fried rattler though! But I don't have a Judge. Dang.

12gaugeTim
February 16, 2012, 10:38 PM
Get a revolver and use ratshot. My uncle uses them to kill rats that gather around the feed trough with great results. I wouldn't recommend fried rat though, even though my dad argues there's no difference between them and squirrels, lol.

MCgunner
February 16, 2012, 11:29 PM
EDIT: I do want to try me some fried rattler though! But I don't have a Judge. Dang.

Tastes like chicken. :D First time I ate it, I was at a Wildlife Biology Assn banquet at A&M. I grabbed a piece and started chompin', then I noticed the bone was REALLY weird looking. Across from me sat the department herpetologist. He asks me, "Whadda think?" I says, "It's real good, like fried chicken, but I can't figure out this bone." He cracked up and told me what it was. I ate a few more over the years including one I killed with a hoe in my back yard that was about 6 ft with the head off and had nine buttons on the rattle. Real easy to clean, too, just zip off the skin and the guts fall out.

If you don't have a Judge, the hoe works pretty well. :D

Mike1234567
February 17, 2012, 12:26 AM
It's not the least bit odd to you that someone hates the thought of hunting, doesn't even FISH, claims he buys his meat blessed and killed by a Rabbi or something, and is prodding the crowd on a hunting board with anti-hunting arguments? I don't KNOW, just seems, er, fishy. Seems like a nice guy, just sayin'.....




With some, I'm beginning to wonder. :rolleyes:



Yep, it's down to name calling and personal attacks. Art must be asleep. At least now I know that some even think bowfishing is immoral. Weird. Don't turn on the Outdoor Channel. They're killing coyotes, fish, all sorts of stuff on there. Even a show called "predator nation".

The meat being "blessed" has nothing to do with my choice of kosher meats... I couldn't care less about that. It's about the way in which the animals are killed and processed. In fact, I've lost most of my faith largely to the human condition (sociopathology) of certain people.

Regards to why I'm on a hunting board... because I care and am interested. Am I a troll because I have a heart and an opinion that differs from yours?

I sincerely doubt that Art is asleep.;)

Davek1977
February 17, 2012, 06:31 AM
Guys can wipe out a whole prairie dog town in an afternoon Having spent a good share of my childhood shooting prairie dogs in South Dakota on the family ranch, I can assure you you will NOT "wipe out" a prairie dog in an afternoon....or several afternoons...of shooting. Those who only hunbt them infrequently may get that impression, as they DO get SMARTER, and while there may be hundreds of them running around upon your arrival, after an hour or two of constant shooting, theres going to be far fewer sticking their heads up to be blown off......but hit that same twon a week later, and again, you'll see hundreds of them running around again. If shooting them was an actual viable population control method, we wouldn't waste hundreds of dollars annually poisoning them.....it would be much more cost effective to simply let someone come shoot them all....if that could happen, which in reality, it doesn't...or if it does, I've yet to see it firsthand after spending my entire life in prairie rat country

allaroundhunter
February 17, 2012, 11:09 AM
Rattlers only bite when they are threatened. Some of you guys make it seem like coyotes are all out stalking children, and rattlers want to crawl into your boot so they can ambush you. Like I said before, the fact that something has the potential to harm you doesn't mean it wants to, or that it will, or that you should kill it on sight.

Weedy.....sometimes you have to anticipate things, even if they *might* not happen. I kill rattlers because there are younger kids that play around where I typically find them. What would I do if I let one go and the next day a child is bit and dies right where I had refused to kill the snake the day before? Maybe it isn't common sense....sometimes it seems like it should be, but better safe than sorry in my book. And yes, coyotes have been known to stalk children, and even attack full grown adults.

Mike1234567
February 17, 2012, 11:14 AM
^^^ I agree whole-heartedly but the other thread that this thread was spun from was about when one is out hunting... far away from homes and playgrounds.

allaroundhunter
February 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
To me, an ethical shot means a "humane" kill. Not necessarily DRT, but that is preferred. By humane, I mean with minimal suffering to the animal. Whether it is a game animal or not; fish, deer, rodent, etc.

Bow hunting is a challenge (and I love it). The humane shot with bow hunting is not a DRT, it never has been, and never will be. The humane shot is one that you can put through the vitals, every time. If I don't trust that I can make the shot, I won't take it.

For me, I will not take a shot further than 35 yards with my bow. Sure, I can hit a vital size target at 40 yards 85% of the time, but there is also the fact that the deer might jump the string and cause even a well aimed shot to not strike exactly where it is aimed, and causing a poor shot to be even worse.

On to prairie dogs, coyotes, and hogs....
This is not so much hunting as it is eradication. That means, that I will expand what I use to do the job, but will still kill as humanely as possible. Baits, traps, stalks, it is all fair game when I am on an eradication "hunt".
For coyotes, it is pretty much a shoot on sight affair, however, I do still have my limits. With my AR, I will not take a shot over 250 yards; with my .270 WSM, that range extends to 450 yards (never taken a shot that distance at a coyote though).
Hogs are also shoot on sight, but I will not "spray and pray" with the AR into a group of them like some people on YouTube do....I actually frown upon it. The only thing worse and more dangerous than a live hog is a wounded and ticked off one.
There is a thread going on about overkill, and my opinion on shooting prairie dogs with centerfire rifles is that it is overkill. However, it is needed. At the ranges they are being shot from, a hit to the vitals is not always guaranteed so a little extra power is needed for a humane kill.
Coyotes, hogs, and prairie dogs are all nuisance animals. They cause a lot of damage and need to be controlled. Coyotes and hogs have no natural predators, so that leaves a lot of work for hunters to do.

allaroundhunter
February 17, 2012, 11:33 AM
I agree whole-heartedly but the other thread that this thread was spun from was about when one is out hunting... far away from homes and playgrounds.

Sometimes I have killed snakes while hunting as well. For example, when I was quail hunting, my dog all of a sudden froze and wouldn't budge. She has been trained to stay away from snakes and will typically back away but this time she had a covey of quail on point that she didn't want to lose or make a move on. When I caught up with her I saw about a 4 ft rattlesnake in between her and the brush that the quail were using as cover. I knew that I would be coming back to this area when I returned to my vehicle and I didn't want the snake to have another chance to bite myself or my dog so I shot it....and then took a quail from the group when they flew ;)

Loosedhorse
February 17, 2012, 11:55 AM
Regards to why I'm on a hunting board... because I care and am interested.JMHO, but I thought that was obvious, Mike, to anyone paying attention. ;) I for one appreciate your input, and hope we're giving you some good stuff to think about.The humane shot is one that you can put through the vitals, every time. If I don't trust that I can make the shot, I won't take it.If there's a "primary principle" for the ethical hunting shot, I'd say that's it. Doesn't mean we can't or won't make mistakes--but it should be important to us that we not make them.

Mike1234567
February 17, 2012, 12:12 PM
Yes, there's definitely good food for thought here. I've been persuaded to look more into varmint eradication and precisely which animals should be dispatched on-site every time.

jrdolall
February 17, 2012, 12:22 PM
If Weedy lost most of his Faith because of people then I contend that he had no Faith to begin with. I have shot 'coons, prairie dogs, coyotes, carp and crows. While this may be pest control I consider it hunting. I took a weapon and went out searching for the animal.

Maybe we should all go over to the G&L forums and start bashing same sex marriages. All in good taste of course.

Mike1234567
February 17, 2012, 12:31 PM
^^^ The lost faith remarks are mine, not Weedy's. I shouldn't have brought it up but, yes, it's mostly people that weakened it... and the cruelty of nature. I'm not going to derail this thread any more with my philosophy (if you can call it that) on the matter.

And, for your information, I'm not gay, not an activist of any kind, and am not against hunting... not in the least. If you'd care to read my posts you'll see that I'm only against hunting for sole sake of the kill and when less than ideal methods are used which increase the animal's suffering.

allaroundhunter
February 17, 2012, 01:23 PM
^^^ The lost faith remarks are mine, not Weedy's. I shouldn't have brought it up but, yes, it's mostly people that weakened it... and the cruelty of nature. I'm not going to derail this thread any more with my philosophy (if you can call it that) on the matter.

And, for your information, I'm not gay, not an activist of any kind, and am not against hunting... not in the least. If you'd care to read my posts you'll see that I'm only against hunting for sole sake of the kill and when less than ideal methods are used which increase the animal's suffering.

Mike, your opinions are very much appreciated, by myself at least. If we do not question our actions and our motives from time to time, then we can very easily go off of the deep end without realizing it. The questions about killing just to kill got me rethinking how (and why) I "hunt" some of the animals that I do, but I have been able to justify within myself my means and my reasons and none of them are just for the sake of the kill. That being said, I am confident that what I am doing is helping to have a positive impact on conservation and the environment that we live in, and, as a hunter, that is my ultimate goal.

Mike1234567
February 17, 2012, 02:57 PM
Mike, your opinions are very much appreciated, by myself at least. If we do not question our actions and our motives from time to time, then we can very easily go off of the deep end without realizing it. The questions about killing just to kill got me rethinking how (and why) I "hunt" some of the animals that I do, but I have been able to justify within myself my means and my reasons and none of them are just for the sake of the kill. That being said, I am confident that what I am doing is helping to have a positive impact on conservation and the environment that we live in, and, as a hunter, that is my ultimate goal.

As human beings no one can ask for more than that. BTW, my ancesters on both sides were either farmers or ranchers and did their fair share of hunting. It was my maternal grandfather who taught me his beliefs about ethical hunting. We never went hunting together because I was either too young or he ws too ill but he spoke about it often.

baylorattorney
February 17, 2012, 03:39 PM
Weedy.....sometimes you have to anticipate things, even if they *might* not happen. I kill rattlers because there are younger kids that play around where I typically find them. What would I do if I let one go and the next day a child is bit and dies right where I had refused to kill the snake the day before? Maybe it isn't common sense....sometimes it seems like it should be, but better safe than sorry in my book. And yes, coyotes have been known to stalk children, and even attack full grown adults.

That's what I'm talking about. Kids and pets are prone to be harmed on encounters with rattlers. Coyotes have nabbed a friend of mine's terrier from his beach camp too.

baylorattorney
February 17, 2012, 03:45 PM
You must have a Taurus Judge though, from what I've been reading that is the only gun in existence that will kill a snake. Jeez.

Nah, no judge, too pricey for me. I'll kill them with anything at my disposal from a boot, stick, truck, shotgun, .22, snake charmer, gasoline, machete... These have all worked well in the past...one time we had one in the flower beds surrounded by baseball size stones, a few rounds from my beretta 96fs centurion turned those stones into fragmentary explosive devices to kill the snake. It was the least I could do to protect my kittens whose mama had the snake hypnotized! Lol

buck460XVR
February 17, 2012, 04:13 PM
I think the problem here is the confusion of what the definition of a hunter really is. Here's my two cents..........

To me, a Hunter is someone who uses skill, to quickly and humanely put down an animal. It may be for meat, it may be for sport, the majority of the time it is both. To a hunter the thrill is not in the kill but in the hunt, or in the meal the hunt has provided. A true Hunter has respect for their quarry even when hunting for subsistence and/or when the quarry can also hunt the hunter. They feel bad about wounding and not recovering game and would rather have a clean miss than wound. A shooter is someone that kills just for the thrill of shooting and killing something. Many times skill is not involved, and there is little or no respect for the quarry. Recovering the game animal is not near as important as getting off the shot, even if it's a poor and low percentage type shot. To a shooter, wounding and loosing an animal is still better than missin'.

Those folks that shoot/hunt animals just to watch them suffer a long and painful death, regardless of the animal are sick...plain and simple. Those that brag about gut shootin' animals so they can crawl off into the brush and suffer are even lower than that.

MCgunner
February 17, 2012, 07:01 PM
As to rattlers, i've killed 'em in my yard and just stepped around 'em on the trail. I have shot a few and a water moccasin my buddy almost stepped on in the middle of the trail we had to come back down. I've eaten a few rattlers. Best defense to a rattler is a good pair of snake boots. In a few months, they'll be out BIG time down on my place. Snake boots are good. :D I've already tested 'em. Man, I'm glad I had 'em ON. :D

As to prairie dogs, eradicate might not been the proper word, but I've seen 'em whacked and stacked. I don't think folks EAT 'em. They justify the practice via range improvement and their cow's health. I know nothing of 'em because we don't have 'em down here. I've got nothing against it if it's what you like to do, but some of the folks here seem to be against it such as Mike. I'm not sure I'd waste ammo and money on 'em, personally, since I ain't gonna eat 'em. I've shot stuff I didn't eat, but didn't burn up 50 rounds shootin' 'em, either. LOL Might be fun and I could try it some day, but I doubt it. Gasoline is going up if nothing else and the panhandle is a long drive. It sounds like I'd get as much out of going to the range and shooting steel stuff which I do all the time, anyway. I'd rather go fishin' this time of year. Trout and redfish are yummy. :D

It was the least I could do to protect my kittens whose mama had the snake hypnotized! Lol

Hmm, the one I killed in my yard with a hoe was being stalked by a mama cat. She was an alley cat and had her kittens in my shop at the time. I heard the rattling as I was working on a motorcycle in my shop, thought it was a cicada or something. When I saw the size of that thing, I ran my then 4 year old daughter in the house, grabbed the hoe, and took his head off in one whack. Didn't even need a .22, let alone a Judge. :D

Mike1234567
February 17, 2012, 07:29 PM
MCgunner... I'm not against killing prairie dogs if their burrows are harming one's cattle or doing other damage. If you don't understand my position on the subject yet then I don't think any number of words will change that.

MCgunner
February 17, 2012, 07:50 PM
Mike, I've had a hard time figuring YOU out. LOL! But, I'm getting there for what that's worth.

Mike1234567
February 17, 2012, 07:58 PM
Me too, MC. I'm trying to understand you as well. I think you're a decent guy. I just don't agree with some of your hunting ideals. If we banter back-and-forth enough then maybe one of us will cave in.

*hint* It won't be me.:D

MCgunner
February 17, 2012, 09:45 PM
I'll be 60 this year and this ol' dog ain't got no new tricks. :D

Robert
February 17, 2012, 11:29 PM
Edit:
Nevermind. It is not worth the effort.

Mike1234567
February 18, 2012, 09:59 AM
I'll be 60 this year and this ol' dog ain't got no new tricks. :D

Fair enough... <shakes hand> I can't change my views either and I'll not try to force my opinions on you. Let's agree to sip beer together but never discuss hunting while inebriated. We could never go hunting together... but go-go girl clubs are definitely okay.

MCgunner
February 18, 2012, 10:06 AM
You wanna REALLY rock the boat with all this ethics stuff, mention feral dogs and cats. :rolleyes: I ain't even goin' there. I'm about burnt out on the subject at this point, anyway. Rather just go shoot somethin' or set the hook on somethin'.

Mike1234567
February 18, 2012, 11:23 AM
MCg... I'm NOT against hunting ANY creatures that NEED to be killed or harvested. It's just some METHODS I question.:):D

Loosedhorse
February 18, 2012, 12:06 PM
Mike, if you have a specific question about a specific method, maybe post that (even in its own thread). As I said, I think the standard hunting methods employed today are fine when competently and diligently applied.

MCgunner
February 18, 2012, 04:30 PM
Mike, I mention dog and cats because, especially the feral dog threads usually only last a few posts before closure. Lots of dog lovers that think dogs can do no wrong even if they go feral. It's all been hashed out here before. But, what we've been discussion is mild compared to some of those threads.

Mike1234567
February 18, 2012, 07:55 PM
MCg... I understand. FWIW, I realize that feral cats and dogs can be a serious problem. One of my neighbors recently chased his own dogs off his property because they were attacking his goats. I asked him why he didn't either turn them in to a shelter to try and find appropriate homes for them or have them put down or build internal fences or do whatever he must to take care of the problem himself. He said he couldn't bare to shoot them. I know for a fact he had plenty of cash to have had them put down. So I asked why he thought it appropriate to shed his dog problem on everyone else. He just said, "Yeah, may bad". However, his killer dogs are still running around free and probably killing others' chickens and goats. I just hope whoever has to kill them does so as quickly/humanely as possible.

Art Eatman
February 18, 2012, 09:14 PM
Ethics are always worthy of discussion, so long as people don't get all emotional because somebody disagrees. Face it: Some folks can type faster than they can think. Bummer. Some folks go to nit-picking to the point that it's a lot like picking fly-poop out of pepper, and that ain't gonna make for a remunerative career.

My understanding about carp, buffalo and gasper-gou is that they eat out the bottom growies which are both food and cover for fish which are themselves food for bass and such. I won't swear to that, however. Read it somewhere, Lord knows how many decades back. Carp seem to be the worst.

When Texas P&W did the rotenone thing on Lake LBJ back around 1970, I saw carp as much as five feet long and almost a foot in diameter. People with reefer trucks were buying them. I disremember; 8 a pound? Something like that. For cat food.

"A weed is a flower in the wrong place." Sorta like feral cats vs. house cats. House cats shouldn't be out in the pasture killing quail. House cats in or around the house don't get bothered, I've noticed. Dogs oughta stay home in the BossMama's yard and not out chasing deer or killing sheep.

baylorattorney
February 19, 2012, 01:04 AM
Ethics go out the window in times of emergency. That's what these hogs have caused on our ranches this past year - emergency. It's handled now tho.

MCgunner
February 19, 2012, 09:48 AM
Came to me last night watching TV news, a guy somewhere was caught on camera breaking in to a store and stealing 70 lbs of meat. He was obviously hungry. If that's a legit excuse for breaking game laws, is it also a legit excuse for theft? Law's a law, ya know, for the folks that say he should be allowed to poach.

Mike1234567
February 19, 2012, 10:23 AM
I never said that poaching is okay. I said if one's family is starving then it's better than stealing. Yes, you can call poaching "stealing" but ask any grocer or butcher and he'll tell you he'd much rather someone poach wild game than steal from his livelihood. FWIW, I've never poached and never will. I don't even hunt.

Art Eatman
February 19, 2012, 10:24 AM
Art's Theory of Elasticity In Ethics: Anybody poaching mule deer or antelope in the Trans-Pecos deserves maximum punishment. There is a serious shortage of both species.

Anybody poaching does in much of central Texas oughta get a medal for pest control. There are way too many of them in many areas. I'll never forget a drive from Luckenbach to Blanco, one evening: I stopped and counted over a hundred "greyhounds" in a five-acre oat patch.

Mike1234567
February 19, 2012, 10:29 AM
Art... Greyhounds as in the dog breed?

Ankeny
February 19, 2012, 10:46 AM
Yes, you can call poaching "stealing" but ask any grocer or butcher and he'll tell you he'd much rather someone poach wild game than steal from his livelihood. Ask any game warden or an outfitter and they would probably tell you they would rather the guy steal from a butcher.

MCgunner
February 19, 2012, 02:38 PM
Ask any game warden or an outfitter and they would probably tell you they would rather the guy steal from a butcher.

Saved me the effort of posting it. :D I know a kid that deservedly spent a year in prison for it, on National Seashore no less, not even on private property. Of course, I know his dad and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. They are NOT hurting for food. :rolleyes: But, heck, go to state prison and they feed, house, and clothe you. You'll probably do more time for stealing from a store, so that's probably the better route if you're truly hungry. :D

Mike1234567
February 19, 2012, 03:20 PM
If my child was dying and poaching is the ONLY way I could save his life then I'd poach. BUT... I would expect to pay the consequences if I was caught. Thank God I've never had to make that choice... take that chance.

LIFE!!!

How many of us are "pro life" when it comes to abortions? Would we allow our children to die of starvation because of some human laws? Scroo that!!

And this ^^^ comes from a gutless wonder who HATES to hunt. Imagine that...

newbuckeye
February 19, 2012, 03:20 PM
Art... Greyhounds as in the dog breed?

As in tall thin skin head deer.....

As for the Asian carp problem, I think they outta get some of those shrimp boats up here and drag the bottom with their nets. Load them onto trucks, take 'em to the nearest fertilizer plant or cat food plant and RECYCLE THEM!

There...that's my "green" suggestion for the week.

MCgunner
February 19, 2012, 03:39 PM
Mike, if you're ever in that situation, I can point you to the food bank in corpus, actually over in calallen. :D We give regularly with food donations, canned goods, mostly, non-perishables. HEB and walmart donate almost out of date goods to them, fresh and non-perishable. They feed a LOT of people in dire straights. No need to go to prison and leave the kids fatherless.

Mike1234567
February 19, 2012, 03:45 PM
MCg... Yes, I'm aware of the food banks, churches, etc. I was stating that I would poach if NO OTHER OPTIONS were available to save my family from starvation. I don't know why I never seem to state my points clearly enough. I tend to use the fewest words possible to get my point across... perhaps TOO few. I guess I just expect folks to take me at my word. Yeah I know, that ain't easy these days. :)

ETA: Sorry, Art.

Art Eatman
February 20, 2012, 12:20 AM
Okay, let's figure that the food stamp, food bank deal will be around a while, okay? And churches and Sally. Let's not get into this ultimate desperation thing...

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