Interesting video of the AN-94


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roscoe
February 17, 2012, 12:46 AM
It is in Russian, but it has high-speed video showing the unusual muzzle break, the reciprocating barrel, and the two-shot/one recoil in action. One thing I noticed was the barrel flex - I know it is a factor but I have never seen it captured in video before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4e4QcbEZP8&feature=related

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happygeek
February 17, 2012, 01:13 AM
I heard that rifle didn't quite live up to the hype of putting the first two rounds in the same hole and hence defeating Level IV armor.

What's the consensus on that thing?

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 17, 2012, 04:27 AM
Russia wants to switch the standard issue rifle from the AK 74 to the AN 94 but money issues and the fact that they aren't at war or anything is what's preventing them.

AethelstanAegen
February 17, 2012, 07:07 AM
Now that they're testing the new AK-12, I doubt we'll ever see them adopt the An-94. I'd certainly love a chance to try an AN-94 to see just how well it works but that won't be happening anytime soon. The recoil on the 5.45 AK-74s doesn't really seem that bad to me...so I suspect it was often a question of will this expensive AN-94 really make a big difference for troops in the field and I suspect they often thought the cost didn't justify the gains.

desidog
February 17, 2012, 12:51 PM
What's the deal with the mag out of axis?

WardenWolf
February 17, 2012, 12:56 PM
The AN-94 proved to not have near the reliability of the AK due to its complexity, and was expensive. As a result, it's been effectively shelved. The AK-12 will probably take its place, since it's got modern assault rifle capabilities at a reasonable cost.

PabloJ
February 17, 2012, 01:06 PM
Why bother we all know Germans can make much better weapons and Russians only modified/improved copies of them. The AK 47 concept was stolen from Stg 44 and Makarov from Walther PPK.

Rob G
February 17, 2012, 01:57 PM
What's the deal with the mag out of axis?

It has to do with the reciprocating barrel. I don't know enough about the design to explain exactly why but because of what they did there they had to put the magazine well in off axis.

Why bother we all know Germans can make much better weapons and Russians only modified/improved copies of them. The AK 47 concept was stolen from Stg 44 and Makarov from Walther PPK.

Not really. Internally they're all very different. While it's true Mikhail Kalashnikov was inspired by the design layout of the STG 44 mechanically there are some significant differences. The AK uses a rotating bolt where the STG 44 uses a tilting bolt. The Action on an AK is actually much more similiar to an M1 Garand. Now the VZ58 on the other hand, that rifle is actually very similiar to the STG44.

As for the Makarov and the PPK. They're not even close internally. The parts counts are completely different. The Walther uses 41 parts. The PPK has 27.

So yeah, you can say that they all look similiar. But so much of the internal functioning of the weapons is completely different.

Sam Cade
February 17, 2012, 02:06 PM
Abakan designed the gun without first asking anyone if they wanted a new gun.



..........Abakan isn't a person.

"Abakan" was the name that the Soviets gave the project (starting in 1981)to replace the AK-74.

Justin
February 17, 2012, 02:25 PM
What's the consensus on that thing?

It's a Russian gun, which means it probably started with a unique and interesting concept, and then they proceeded to bludgeon that concept to death with shoddy engineering, poor quality control, and over-heated claims about the rifle's capabilities.

Youngster
February 17, 2012, 02:26 PM
The muzzle brake alone is interesting, it's said to be even more effective than the AK-74 style brake but it seems like a lot of design effort was made to ensure that it's also much less damaging to the hearing.

This device must be fairly expensive and difficult to manufacture however, or else we might have seen it go onto the the Ak-12 instead of what looks like an improved AK-74 brake.

AethelstanAegen
February 17, 2012, 02:38 PM
The AK 47 concept was stolen from Stg 44 and Makarov from Walther PPK.

Not quite. The Stg. 44 and the AK have almost nothing in common except for a similar external appearance. As others have noted, Kalashnikov drew inspiration in part from the Garand.

It's a Russian gun, which means it probably started with a unique and interesting concept, and then that concept was bludgeoned to death with shoddy engineering, poor quality control, and over-heated claims about the rifle's capabilities.

I don't think I'd agree with you there Justin. Not everything produced in Russia is plagued by shoddy engineering and poor quality control...particularly a prototype weapon. They tend to pull out the stops when it comes to weapons development (and it's the commercial market that suffered for it quality and quantity wise).

I think the AN-94 hit problems in that it was simply too complex. If there's one consistent theme in Russian weapons, it's simplicity. They see this as a sign of reliability, easy to learn to use, and easy/quick/cheap to produce (since they like to have a huge stockpiles of arms...a hold over attitude from lessons learned at the beginning of the "Great Patriotic War") and they would be right that simple usually yields those results. It was going to be a very hard sell to Russian military brass if the benefits were slight and at the cost of a much more complex rifle (which would require a complete shift in small arms attitudes among the Russian military). There weren't problems with the production of the rifle, it just wasn't what they were looking for which was something simple, easy, rugged and available in quantity quickly.

SN13
February 17, 2012, 04:19 PM
Barrel flex is common to all guns.

Here are a bunch of AR-15's in slow motion. Watch how the thinner barrel ar-15's are bouncing around. The thicker ones don't move as much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEBMlfhlxYg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuQayLVbiSU

Youngster
February 17, 2012, 04:51 PM
A more recent trend in Russian small arms is specialization, instead of "one size fits all" they're starting to go the way of having a optimized design for each role, as seen by the multitude of CQB oriented and integrally suppressed designs put out in recent years.

With all the other options they have to handle the CQB role, from the ASh-12.7 and 9x39 guns, with their formidable armor piercing capabilities and stopping power, they probably figured it was no longer worth the while to try to monkey around with the complex, problematic AN-94 design intended to get the most of the 5.45 cartridge in CQB while still being suitable as a general issue assault rifle.

The relatively low cost of Russian small arms and the fact that the specialized arms only seem to be issued to specialized troops makes this "arms room concept" viable for them.

-v-
February 17, 2012, 06:08 PM
The off axis magazine is necessary for the AN-94's hyper burst feature. IIRC how it works is each round is fed through a pre-feeding mechanism in the gun. So at the ready, there is a round in the chamber and another in the pre-feed mechanism. When it is fired, the spent is ejected and the new round rapidly loaded from the pre-feeder, and also fired. All this happens before the gun has a chance to fully recoil inside the housing.

Phaethon
February 17, 2012, 07:34 PM
It's too bad, it definitely is a really neat design. It's nice to see a rear sight mounted on the rear end of the receiver for an AK-type rifle for once too, to give it a longer sight radius. I've always found the standard ironsights to be dreadful.

JustinJ
February 17, 2012, 07:42 PM
Shotgun news had a great write up about the AN94 a while back. If i recall correctly the first two did rounds did not penetrate the same hole exactly but were more than close enough for their intended purpose of degrading a ceramic plate and then penetrating. The muzzle device is also supposed to reduce audio and visual report. I also seem to recall reading somewhere that other guns have been designed with the hyper burst capability and the US army has indicated the requirement for it's next standard issue rifle. As youngster mentioned the Russian military has seemed to be moving towards more specialization.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 17, 2012, 08:31 PM
Hopefully some country like Bulgaria adopts it, then drops it completely allowing us to get parts kits! :D

Unfortunately no hyper burst would be currently allowed.

JustinJ
February 17, 2012, 08:42 PM
Hopefully some country like Bulgaria adopts it, then drops it completely allowing us to get parts kits!

Due to the hyper burst i'd be highly surprised if the ATF ever allowed that. I would suspect this guns function would fall into the 'too easy to convert to FA' category like open bolt fire.

RX-178
February 17, 2012, 09:11 PM
I've handled the real thing, although never had the chance to fire one.

I will say that I found the ergonomics quite uncomfortable, particularly the pistol grip, although I couldn't really pin down any one reason why.

Just between the pistol grip and the angled magazine, it was not very comfortable when I handled it.

JustinJ
February 17, 2012, 09:18 PM
I've handled the real thing, although never had the chance to fire one.

Where? How?

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 17, 2012, 10:56 PM
Due to the hyper burst i'd be highly surprised if the ATF ever allowed that. I would suspect this guns function would fall into the 'too easy to convert to FA' category like open bolt fire.

If people make still legal semi auto Stens, then they could make Semi auto AN94s.

Youngster
February 18, 2012, 12:39 AM
It's too bad, it definitely is a really neat design. It's nice to see a rear sight mounted on the rear end of the receiver for an AK-type rifle for once too, to give it a longer sight radius. I've always found the standard ironsights to be dreadful.

The new AK-12 has a peep sight mounted at the back of the reciever.

I don't mind the classic AK irons though, yeah they're mediocre for precise shooting at longer ranges but they have their advantages over peeps for closer, faster shooting.

JohnnyK
February 18, 2012, 11:34 AM
I want one!

JustinJ
February 21, 2012, 01:30 AM
If people make still legal semi auto Stens, then they could make Semi auto AN94s.

I'd love to have one too but I highly suspect the alterations needed to make a sten fire from the closed bolt are nil in comparison when one considers how the AN 94 operates. The whole receiver and barrel actually move to allow for that first shot "hyper burst". Assuming it could be done the engineering required to alter this gun would put it out of the reach of the vast majority.

SniperStraz
February 21, 2012, 02:02 AM
It's nice to see some innovation in the evolution of small arms. Bravo!
Obviously the first model isn't going to work reliably but it has to be field tested first.

briansmithwins
February 21, 2012, 09:10 AM
The history of infantry rifles with reciprocating barrels hasn't been good. When the going gets tough troops tend not to be so careful about not letting the barrel touch cover. As soon as that happens you start getting stoppages.

BSW

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 22, 2012, 10:27 AM
I'd love to have one too but I highly suspect the alterations needed to make a sten fire from the closed bolt are nil in comparison when one considers how the AN 94 operates. The whole receiver and barrel actually move to allow for that first shot "hyper burst". Assuming it could be done the engineering required to alter this gun would put it out of the reach of the vast majority.

The gun has a semi auto selection, just remove the parts that allow it to go burst.

JustinJ
February 22, 2012, 11:11 AM
The gun has a semi auto selection, just remove the parts that allow it to go burst.

So do a number of open bolt full autos. Guns built from said kits are not legal unless modified to fire from the closed bolt. The point being that just altering the trigger components does not automatically make a gun ATF approved.

briansmithwins
February 22, 2012, 11:45 AM
The gun has a semi auto selection, just remove the parts that allow it to go burst.

Open or closed bolt doesn't enter into it.

Unfortunately, ATF doesn't agree with you. Their rule is 'once a machinegun, always a machinegun'.

Which is why M14s are destroyed instead of being sold thru CMP and all those FALs that were imported had to be built on new receivers that didn't have the clearances for the FA parts.

BSW

JustinJ
February 22, 2012, 11:57 AM
I believe he is talking about building from a parts kit of demilled guns. My point about the open built is that some operating methods must be altered beyond just the trigger control group.

benEzra
February 22, 2012, 12:29 PM
In my (entirely chairborne) opinion, the AN-94 was an ingenious solution to the effectiveness-at-range problem, but has been overtaken by other developments in small arms optics and ammunition.

The whole point of the AN-94 was to be able to put two rounds very close to the same spot in order to increase effectiveness, primarily at longer range (higher hit probability and better terminal effects), at the cost of increased weight, greatly increased complexity, and somewhat poor ergonomics. It did so successfully, and it is an ingenious mechanism.

However, after it was developed, small arms development went down a different path, solving the long-range problem with general-issue optics and improved bullet designs like Mk 262 5.56mm, both of which also improve close-range performance. A modern M4 with Aimpoint/Eotech and Mk 262 arguably gives better hit probability at long range than an AN-94 with iron sights, and it does so in all lighting conditions, without making compromises in the shorter range fight.

I've never handled an AN-94, but from the looks of it, it isn't very modular, it isn't much better as an optics platform than the AK-74, it doesn't look particularly light- or NVG- or magnifier-friendly, etc. The AN-94's weight (especially up front), length, bulk, and seemingly awkward placement of optics/lights would seem to make it *less* effective than the M4 in the 0-200 yard engagements that make up the majority of infantry combat. So while it might would have been just the thing in hypothetical 1980s engagements in Europe against 1980s NATO rifles and sights, it is IMO now outclassed by modern rifles that solve the same problems more elegantly and with fewer compromises.

JustinJ
February 22, 2012, 02:08 PM
The whole point of the AN-94 was to be able to put two rounds very close to the same spot in order to increase effectiveness, primarily at longer range (higher hit probability and better terminal effects), at the cost of increased weight, greatly increased complexity, and somewhat poor ergonomics. It did so successfully, and it is an ingenious mechanism.

It was my understanding that the whole point of hyper burst was to defeat ceramic plated armor as two rounds hitting the same spot would seem to do little to increase hit probability?

Assuming it's primary purpose is to defeat armor i find it quite interesting that the US army now wants the same feature given the type of enemy it would be suited to fight. It certainly wouldn't be for insurgents but instead the military of an industrialized nation.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 22, 2012, 04:57 PM
So do a number of open bolt full autos. Guns built from said kits are not legal unless modified to fire from the closed bolt. The point being that just altering the trigger components does not automatically make a gun ATF approved.

Filing down the disconnector on an open bolt semi auto makes it a full auto. The AN 94 isn't an open bolt. The semi auto Sten builds I'm talking about are legal and last I saw, closed bolt. It appears as though the barrel recoiling isn't needed for semi auto fire and barrels aren't importable with parts kits so a new barrel could be made as a fixed one.

benEzra
February 22, 2012, 06:43 PM
It was my understanding that the whole point of hyper burst was to defeat ceramic plated armor as two rounds hitting the same spot would seem to do little to increase hit probability?
I'm sure you're correct that defeating armor was probably the major idea behind the concept, but beyond a couple hundred yards the bullets won't be impacting the same spot. At any significant range there will be dispersion due to the ammunition; even from a machine rest, I doubt milspec 5.45 will group better than 1.5 MOA or so, which at 500 yards would be 7.5 inches. You'd also get some dispersion from any residual rotational moment of the gun.

FWIW, the burst mode rate is 1800 rpm, or 0.0333 second splits---very fast for a rifle length round, and 50% faster than the 1200 rpm of an Uzi Micro, though slower than the 2200 rpm (!) of a HK VP70 pistol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_VP70) with shoulder stock in 3-round burst.

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