Wish List: Next Generation Progressive


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GW Staar
February 17, 2012, 01:43 PM
The closest thing available to a "next generation" press is the Dillon 1050 with its 6 stations. The minuses on that system, that prevents it from taking the reloading world by storm is 1. the price; 2. the short warranty. (Dillon's flagship is really the 650 while the 1050 is a product made for limited commercial use....hence the limited warranty) 3. some stations are limited-use stations.

So Here's the big question: (say RCBS, Dillon, Hornady, Lee are lurking....because they are)

What do you think the next generation presses ought to look like....keeping the price inside or close to a 1000 dollar bill?

In Peter Eick's recent thread, he describes a 9 Station Press he would love to see and buy.

Your point about the costs is why I want to go to 9 stations over 7. If you are going to make a jump to a big press, then make it a significant jump.

My thought on stages:
1) case feeder
2) Lube die
3) universal deprime
4) resize (with no deprime)
5) Expand, prime
6) powder dispense
7) powder check
8) seat
9) crimp

Alternative would be to powder dispense with the primer and then feed bullet at 7.

To me a 9 stage press with lots of room would cover everything I want, could allow me a lot of flexibility, and would make adjustments so much easier on each of the dies.

Lets work out what we want (do I hear a new thread?) and then propagate it around the net and do a letter writing campaign.

What say ye?
:D

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cfullgraf
February 17, 2012, 04:42 PM
A nine station press would have to be motorized or the lever would be so long you would be in the next county. Given those restrictions, I doubt you could beat a grand for pricing.

I would like to see the manufacturers fix the current presses inadequacies. Reliability of the case feeders, priming system and bullet feeders are too low for my purposes. Once you get them up and running, things generally are fine. But it seems many reloaders have multiple presses to avoid the cartridge change and start up issues. While the press may cost less than $1000, multiple presses do not.

I would like to see a way to inspect the primer before and after installation, The RCBS APS strip system comes the closest.

helotaxi
February 17, 2012, 07:51 PM
Why would you deprime and resize in different operations? Why does the case have to feed into it's own station? The Dillon 1050B is an 8-station, not 6 and essentially does all of the above plus swage primer pockets prior to priming.

I personally don't have much use for more than 4 stations until someone has a way to lube, size, and trim/chamfer/debur on the same pass as the loading operation. Until that day, I'll do case prep completely separately from the loading operation. I don't have a problem with the primer system on my Dillon 550 and it only takes a couple of minutes to swap from small to large primers. My case and bullet feeders (right and left hand respectively) are 100% reliable and don't slow me down at all either.

Peter M. Eick
February 17, 2012, 09:51 PM
Why?

I suggested the separate stations because commonly I get more accurate rifle rounds if I resize without the deprime and expander in the die. Thus I deprime in one, resize in the next die and the since I use BTHP's normally I don't expand the brass. It works great for me.

My suggestion is one of flexibility.

5 stations to me is cramped and tight. 9 stations just seems like I could have more room and do everything a lot easier.

Like was listed above that is my suggestions. While I could get by with 7 stations, I don't see the point of upgrading from my pro2000 for just 2 more stations. I really want to make a significant change.

How would you all do the stations and how many would you need?

helotaxi
February 18, 2012, 06:04 AM
Have you tried a neck die or bushing die that has a decapping rod without an expander ball on it? Both Forster and Redding make dies in this configuration. The inside of the neck is never touched by the die. The Forster Benchrest FL dies should be looked at as well. The expander ball sits high enough on the stem that it is expanding the neck while the top of the neck is still in the sizer. The result is that it can't be pulled off center.

My ideal setup for rifle would be 1) Decap 2) Swage primer pocket 3) lube 4) Resize/trim/chamfer/debur 5) charge 6) seat 7) crimp. 7 and 8 stage pressses are out there but even the 1050 doesn't have room to run the 1200RT and still be able to perform all the other operations in a single pass. As such, I'm perfectly content to do case prep separately and simply load on the 550.

jerkface11
February 18, 2012, 11:57 AM
Your'e reloading for accuracy on a progressive?

Waldog
February 18, 2012, 01:07 PM
deleted

Peter M. Eick
February 18, 2012, 01:23 PM
Yes, for accuracy. Why not milk out a bit more accuracy if I can get it easily?

When I want to go 'whole hog" I get out the single stage and do everything right but for production rounds for the SuperMatch, the progressive is good enough.

Also have a set of Redding dies that do what you describe. That is why I want the option for my next presses.

I like your suggestion Helotaxi. Good idea. I have round loads through the pro2000 twice to allow me to run different stages of the press. It is more work but reasonably flexible.

helotaxi
February 19, 2012, 10:05 AM
Your'e reloading for accuracy on a progressive?There are different levels of accuracy. Many long range competitive shooters reload their match ammo on progressive presses. Their rounds are more than accurate enough for their uses. Careful attention setup of the press and the process can yield ammo just as uniform as that coming off a standard single stage press. When you start talking about benchrest accuracy, you start talking about arbor presses and the dies meant for them.

loadedround
February 19, 2012, 10:19 AM
Why not "cut to the chase" and just buy a Dillon 650 and be done with it. The 1050 as mentioned previously is for commercial loaders and not hobbyists like us, no matter how advanced. Check out a Dillon catalog or their website to determine how much a caliber change over would be on a Dillon 1050 or a "newly designed" proverbial nine station press and god forbid, the price for changing primer sizes also. Go the 650 route and save enough to by a new firearm! :)

joed
February 19, 2012, 11:09 AM
I've owned a 1050 for 6 years now. This is not a Super 1050 but the older model that I picked up used from a gunshop that used to sell commercial ammo. Near as I can tell the only difference between the Super is the older press won't accept cartridges larger then .308, but has a shorter stroke. If the 1050 has a drawback it's price only. In 6 years that press hasn't needed anything. In fact it is the only Dillon press that I haven't broken anything on. Both the 550 and 650 would occasionally break something, usually a cheap plastic part.

The same time I got the 1050 I sold my 550 and bought a 650. With all the bells and whistles the 650 came out to about $750. The 1050 used was $900. The 650 has had mishaps breaking parts which Dillon has replaced for free. Production on the 2 presses can't even be compared, the 1050 will run circles around the 650. The 650 is also temperamental having good and bad days. Not so on the 1050, it produces ammo in large quantities any time I want. The 650 has maybe produced 6k rounds for me, the 1050 has done the same since I've owned it. The 1050 runs flawlessly and I'm quite happy not having a warranty.

My only regret with the 1050 was when I bought it there were 2 presses for sale. I only bought one because I was worried about buying a used commercial press. Looking back I should have bought both 1050's and never even considered the 650.

From my experience the 1050 has only 1 operational flaw, setup. It sacrifices easy setup for high output. Caliber changes take about 30 minutes. Once setup it's non stop output at a slow rate of about 1000 rounds an hour. If I push it a little I can break 1200 rounds an hour easily, but my arm usually gives out after an hour. They should have motorized this press.

Both presses have produced quality ammo for me that I would put up against anything loaded on a single stage press.

jerkface11
February 19, 2012, 11:55 AM
Both presses have produced quality ammo for me that I would put up against anything loaded on a single stage press.

What size groups can you get with it?

joed
February 19, 2012, 12:19 PM
jerkface11, for rifle ammo I've only loaded .223 but group size was 1/2", the same as what I get loading on the Rock Chucker. The hardest part of getting accuracy on a progressive press is using the right powder. Use a powder that doesn't meter well and accuracy will suffer. Choose the right powder that flows like water and accuracy is comparable to anything loaded on a single stage.

I haven't loaded .308 yet but I'd bet it would work well too given the right powder.

The only reason I don't load my other rifle calibers on the progressive is I don't shoot a lot of ammo with them. The benefit of the progressive is quantity. For a rifle that I shoot 100 rounds in 2 months it isn't worth the setup time to me.

For pistol rounds I get as good accuracy as I can from a single stage also. It's hard for me to put a group size on pistol ammo because I'm a better shot with some guns then others. The .45 acp amazed me though. I never wanted to own one as I carried a Colt in the service for awhile. That gun was so inaccurate I don't know that I could honestly hit a person with it at 25 yards. For that reason I never owned a .45 acp till 6 years ago when I bought a Kimber. I expected shotgun accuracy from it so loaded it on the progressive. I was very surprised to see that it equaled anything I could shoot with a revolver. I've since found a love for autos. Again, it's choosing the right powder.

Striker Fired
February 19, 2012, 12:20 PM
A nine station press would be nice if it is engineered right, but it would be massive,somthing like 8 to 10" diameter shellplate.The press would probably weigh 75 to 100lbs,so shipping would run near $75 to $100.Pricey,pricey
I could more use a seven as a compromise. but I am also getting by nicely with 5.

jerkface11
February 19, 2012, 12:40 PM
jerkface11, for rifle ammo I've only loaded .223 but group size was 1/2", the same as what I get loading on the Rock Chucker.

Well that's better than I would have expected.

armarsh
February 19, 2012, 01:12 PM
If this new press was designed like the Hornady, you could get by with 6 or 7 stations rather than 9 because the case feeding and priming are done at half stages. I really like my Hornady, but would like one more station. Two would be a bonus to hedge against future needs.

helotaxi
February 19, 2012, 05:23 PM
People with real experience with good progressives shouldn't be at all surprised with the quality of ammo that they can produce.

Hondo 60
February 19, 2012, 10:44 PM
I wish the 550 had 5 stations.
I'd like the extra station to house a powder cop die.
Yes, I know the 650 has that extra station, but it's also how many hundreds more expensive?
And I like the separate seat/crimp.

Kevin Rohrer
February 20, 2012, 08:25 AM
re: 1050
They should have motorized this press.

Joed: Are you aware that Ponsness-Warren makes a motorized drive for it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

re: Accuracy on a Progressive

Isn't accuracy more related to the dies used than the press they are used on, as well as the round-to-round consistency of the powder measure?

I am not saying anything negative about Dillon dies. I am currently loading a thousand rounds of .308 on my 550 after having resized the brass on a turret. Am using a Hornady seating die w/ the sleeve so my fingers don't get caught. The powder measure I am using on the 550 measures .0 or +.1gr. variation. With this setup, I don't believe that my ammo will be any less accurate than if the entire process was done on a single-stage.

Kevin Rohrer
February 20, 2012, 08:33 AM
I wish the 550 had 5 stations.
I'd like the extra station to house a powder cop die.
Yes, I know the 650 has that extra station, but it's also how many hundreds more expensive?

Agreed. A semi-progressive like the 550 w/ a powder check die would make it just about perfect.

Of course, the priming system needs to be changed. :cool:

helotaxi
February 20, 2012, 08:34 AM
Isn't accuracy more related to the dies used than the press they are used on, as well as the round-to-round consistency of the powder measure?

Someone with experience who understands. A good progressive isn't going to have any more slop (and sometimes less) than a single stage. From there it's just a matter of using good dies and setting them up correctly. With a stable load, +/- 0.2gn on the powder charge isn't going to make an appreciable difference, or you could set up an electronic powder dispenser and weigh every charge on the progressive as well. It will slow things down a bit but still be a good bit faster than a single stage.

joed
February 20, 2012, 10:09 AM
re: 1050


Joed: Are you aware that Ponsness-Warren makes a motorized drive for it?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Didn't know that and thanks for the tip.

joed
February 20, 2012, 10:14 AM
If I could change anything on Dillon presses it would be:

1. 5 stations on the 550b allowing the use of a powder check die.

2. Use the priming system from either the 550b or 1050 on the 650. That rotary system is the pits.

I have no experience with any other brands but if I did I'm sure I could come up with complaints.

GW Staar
February 20, 2012, 05:21 PM
I think all the next generation presses ought to have safer primer loading systems. One of the reasons I got an RCBS press was for the APS primer system. Is it perfect? I haven't found anything "perfect" in reloading yet, but it's easily faster and safer than any tube primer system.

I'm not saying APS has to be industry wide, I'm saying it should've at least provided the stimulus to the other manufacturers to develop something safer than what they have....better than APS if they can, and definitely more than just tube sleeves.

The latest story out of Calguns tells of an Arizona 550 user (3 months ago) poking primers in a tube and inserting the full tube to his press. He pulled the pin to drop the primers and he may as well pulled the pin to a grenade. As in Pull Pin-instant Kaboom. Read the story at Calguns Thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=495909).
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj77/grant22_2000/Forum%20Crap/Photo_110411_003.jpg

The consensus was that static electricity was the cause. Personally, I think Murphy was the cause. "If its possible for something to go wrong it will. (sometime)" Over at Arfcom they made a big deal (as they should have) out of a guy who found a treasure trove of CCI APS primers at his local pawn shop. He brought them home and immediately started emptying all the strips, of their primers, and filling a jar full. He took a picture and sent it to Arfcom. Imagine the stir that made.:) Crys of "you just made a bomb!" Well folks I made bombs for 20 years by loading RCBS primer tubes (no protection sleeves then) for my Rock Chucker. I discovered Lee's hand primer and so that practice ended. I felt flat lucky that I didn't have any primer detonations in that 20 years. When it came time to choose a progressive I wasn't too keen to go back to tube loading. sleeves or no.

Besides a safe primer station I would like at least a 6 station press so I don't have to choose either or. I want a lock-out die station, a bullet feeder station, and separate seat and crimp stations.

So...1. size/deprime 2. prime/expand/charge 3. lock-out die 4. bulletfeeder 5. seater 6. crimper.

Seven stations would be OK too if you want a separate charge station. Actually that would preferable to me if in that scenario the 3rd charging station is stationary like RCBS's current #3 station is. That works really well for rifle caliber or load changes. Just uncouple the spring, lift,empty, and refill the measure, recouple the spring, and set the micometer dial.

As for a Military crimp swaging station, I'll pass. I've had enough experience with old hard military brass that just springs back, to convert me to a reamer.

An improved Dillon trimmer that deburrs and chamfers, (I know they say you don't need to...whatever) would be awesome...and a Dillon trimmer-like press-mountable tool that reams primer pockets would be super cool. Both tools need to be way smaller than the current one. The reamer could be like a flex hosed Dremel hanging under the press, that engages during the primer seating stroke. That would require station #1 to size/deprime, station #2 to ream/and maybe expand,...and station #3 to prime and fill?

As for Lube dies....maybe. Haven't tried one so I can't tell whether it would be that much better than the spray lube in box method. Note to Peter Eick: The RCBS lube die includes depriming...scratch the need for #9.;)

Striker Fired
February 20, 2012, 05:33 PM
That'll leave a mark!!!

Peter M. Eick
February 20, 2012, 07:54 PM
Sure looks like a reason to stay with APS primers.

By the way, has anyone ever had an APS primer blow in a Pro2000? I have not heard of one ever.

Now back to the perfect press discussion....

GW Staar
February 20, 2012, 08:33 PM
Sure looks like a reason to stay with APS primers.

By the way, has anyone ever had an APS primer blow in a Pro2000? I have not heard of one ever.

Now back to the perfect press discussion....

Yes, I've heard of "one." The guy had a problem with the old primer not ejecting completely and caused the new one to go in sideways and kittywampus on top of the old one....then he forced it in with a lot of red neck enthusiasm. But only one went off....that's a little different than having a whole stack go off....and he wasn't holding it.

Because of that RCBS came up with the spring-loaded primer pin they sell to retrofit sizers if you want. Seems to me he just didn't get the pin mounted low enough and he lacked the patience to look and see why the blamed primer doesn't go in easy.:rolleyes: Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

Peter M. Eick
February 21, 2012, 06:35 PM
So someone finally blew a primer in an APS strip. Well you knew it was going to happen someday. Of course they were brute forcing it.

To bad but at least it was only one primer. Unlike a primer tube! One thing I will never allow on my bench is a primer tube! Too dangerous for me.

codefour
February 22, 2012, 11:31 AM
Unlike a primer tube! One thing I will never allow on my bench is a primer tube! Too dangerous for me.

Yeah I agree with ya Peter with one exception. The new Redding presses come with a blast tube that goes over the primer tube and it is pretty hefty. I still do occasionally load rifle rounds on my Redding Big Boss II or my T-7 turret press. I have not gotten around to getting a shell plate for rounds like .30-30 and .30 carbine. I seem to forget to add it to the cart when I place a MidwayUSA order.

I also think seven stations would be ideal. The stations could go as such:

1. size/deprime, 2. bell/powder, 3. powder check/lock out die, 4. bullet feeder, 5. seat, 6. crimp.

I prefer to seat and crimp in seperate stations. I seem to have better luck doing seat and crimp seperately.

An extra seventh station would be nice if the need ever arose. Nine stations? I think that would be a bit too many moving parts and the shell plate assembly would be gigantic.

Now, is RCBS paying attention to this thread.? Or any other reloading company? I think there would be a market for a good seven station press that is simpler than the Super 1050. I have heard the caliber conversions on those are a real pain. The simplicity of the Pro 2000 caliber conversions would have to be retained.

helotaxi
February 22, 2012, 08:07 PM
The 1050B is meant to be set up for production level quantities and left that way, not switched back and forth. The more different operations that you put on the single press, the more complicated and expensive it becomes to swap cartridges. That's one of my favorite things about the 550B. The dies are often the most expensive thing about the conversion and it takes 10 min at the outside, and that's on a change that requires a different toolhead, shell plate and a different primer size.

codefour
February 22, 2012, 08:54 PM
Yeah, If I ever got into serious USPSA or IDPA shooting, I would probably get a 1050 if another press does not come out with our beloved seven or nine stations.!

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
February 23, 2012, 10:51 AM
For those looking at the RCBS lube/depriming die, I just recently used one to lube and deprime 4000 brass. Am very happy with the product, though the lube hole is a waste of time. Just turn the die upside down and squirt the lube directly on the felt. Let the felt soak up the lube for a few minutes, then go to sizing/depriming. Very convenient.

Lube tumbled off easily after I swaged the brass in a Dillon 600 swager, but was light enough I could leave it on while swaging without excessive mess. Did have to wash the plastic Akro W.I.P. bins though.

On the subject of ideal presses. After using the Dillons, the Hornady LnL and the RCBS Pro 2000, here is what I would like:

1. Lots of die stations (6 or 7 would be good) with Hornady LnL style bushings to provide maximum flexibility in changing dies/operations. The toolheads/die plates are "ok," but lack the maximum flexibility of the Hornady. As a side bonus, the dies are easier to store and just as quick or quicker to change calibers.

2. The simplicity of the RCBS Pro 2000 auto advance system with the half steps of the Hornady LnL advance system. Not sure that one could be done, but a larger shell plate to hold more brass while placing the auto advance "holes" closer to make smaller or half steps would be a good thing. If the half step is possible, one can prime and do other operations on a half step, allowing other operations at the die stations.

3. Powder measures with as large a capacity as possible, with the current Hornady and Dillon reservoirs being the minimum size. Also, including at least two sizes of powder cylinders or bars and and micrometers right out of the box.

4. An improved version of the RCBS APS strip system with a primer feed stop and a primer punch block/stop.

5. If the press requires loading primers into a feeding system, include the primer loader with the press.

6. Offer a stripped down version as well as a luxury version of the press. One "as it should be" and one with all the niceties stripped out to make it more affordable to newer reloaders on a tight budget.

7. RCBS style ejection and case retention. I.E. an adjustable L shaped wire for ejection (very simple) and spring steel springs mounted on a bracket for case retention. Eliminates the easy to lose/drop Dillon buttons and the easy to bang up Hornady Spring while making the system simpler as whole.

GW Staar
February 23, 2012, 02:23 PM
Dave's post is pretty close to my take on the concept too.

He knows I don't agree on the stationary head with bushings vs. removeable tool heads, but that's a matter of taste. I find the storage of tool heads full of dies a convenience...he doesn't.

I have a couple of observations:

Can't comment on the Lube Die (don't have one), but based on what he has experienced, I will probably try one this year.

One of the real design limitations with any progressive is the diameter of the dies that go into the heads. That limits how close the auto-advance holes can be to each other. I'd be interested to know how close the holes are in the shell plates of the Hornady vs. RCBS/Dillon.

Having never been close to a Hornady for more than a few minutes, I'm not one to know anything about the press. But I'm wondering: If perchance the holes are farther apart due to the bushings (I mean you have to have a certain amount of metal between for strength), then Hornady may have had an incentive to develop their "half step" strokes, because a full step would be even farther than the competition.

That said, improving the jerk at the end of auto-advance in Dillon and RCBS presses would be great. The lighter spring I use is adequate, and Dillon people have their fixes as well, but they could be improved.

Powder capacity is another thing. RCBS says their capacity is based on what's a "safe" capacity. Ditto for Hornady and Dillon. All warn about increasing their designed capacity.....obviously they don't agree what's safe.

BTW, Sinclair has replacement bottles, some with larger capacities for the Uniflow.

As you know, I agree about the "improved" APS primer system. As well as the advantages of the simplicity of the RCBS press, doing the same job with fewer moving parts.

The rest of the post.....also ditto.:)

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
February 23, 2012, 05:36 PM
GW,

I picked a couple of things up out of your post I wanted to respond to and commented in red below them.

"He knows I don't agree on the stationary head with bushings vs. removeable tool heads, but that's a matter of taste. I find the storage of tool heads full of dies a convenience...he doesn't."

I think the biggest difference there is I've owned and used both. There's are some things that stand out for me:

1. With the LnL bushings, you don't get the die plate/tool head "slop." By that I mean the toolheads/die plates tend to move during press operation, because they have a certain amount of built in tolerances to allow for moving the toolhead/die plate in and out of the press. The Hornady LnL bushings twist in and out and "lock" in place, giving you a much more positive location for your dies. Much more like a single stage.

2. The flexibility of the the LnL bushings is much higher than with the toolhead/die plate. If you're loading using a FL sizing die, you can instantly replace the FL sizing die with a completely adjusted, ready to use, Neck sizing die instantly. This is very convenient and I've missed this capability very much since I sold my LnL.

3. Convenience of storage. I stored my dies with LnL bushings installed in an MTM case, which held four sets of dies at a time. Two of these boxes held most all the common caliber dies I had. A third held the rest. One can also use the Hornady die boxes to store the dies with the die bushings. Other brands of boxes sort of fit, but are tight.

These three items may sound trivial when listed, but become a pretty significant deal when you actually use both types of presses.


"That limits how close the auto-advance holes can be to each other. I'd be interested to know how close the holes are in the shell plates of the Hornady vs. RCBS/Dillon."

The Hornady is slightly more spread out, but not a lot. I still have some Hornady shell plates and I'll try to get a picture for comparison.

"Having never been close to a Hornady for more than a few minutes, I'm not one to know anything about the press. But I'm wondering: If perchance the holes are farther apart due to the bushings (I mean you have to have a certain amount of metal between for strength), then Hornady may have had an incentive to develop their "half step" strokes, because a full step would be even farther than the competition."

Oddly enough, the egg came before the chicken. Hornady used the half-step advance with their earlier Hornady Projector, which did not have lock n load bushings. It required you screw in the dies.

"Powder capacity is another thing. RCBS says their capacity is based on what's a "safe" capacity. Ditto for Hornady and Dillon. All warn about increasing their designed capacity.....obviously they don't agree what's safe.

BTW, Sinclair has replacement bottles, some with larger capacities for the Uniflow."

Evidentally RCBS safe capacity may have changed. They now offer a larger capacity Uniflow for "large calibers." I suspect all of the "safe" capacity jargon may be slang for: "We designed it with this capacity, have thousands of these reservoirs in manufacture at the present and really don't want to change."

I suspect if enough pressure is put on the manufacturers, they will increase the capacity. That said, the Hornady and Dillon measures seem more designed for progressives, while the current Uniflow was designed for a single stage. RCBS has recently added a very large capacity powder measure for "large calibers" I called and got them to send me a couple of the reservoirs.

They are huge, bigger than either the Dillon or Hornady reservoirs. Unfortunately, they don't fit a standard Uniflow. But they do show RCBS can provide larger capacity reservoirs if they choose to.

Shrinkmd
February 23, 2012, 08:40 PM
I wonder why Redding has not entered the progressive press market.

I'm a big fan of the Hornady LNL, but I wish they could add another station (think Lyman M die) and also the primer pocket swage and seating on the downstroke that the Dillon 1050 has. The case retainer springs are convenient, even if they die after a while.

Every now and then I dream about the 1050, but I load too many calibers, and I'm not sure I'm ready to commit to an expensive dedicated machine just for one. I would probably get better mileage out of several Hornady machines set up for what I shoot, so I can replenish my pet loads and still have a press "free" to tinker with.

I find that it takes almost an hour to change over the press to a different caliber, as well as getting the powder measure exactly on target. I've been finishing up a batch run of 44 mag, and it is such a pleasure to just dump in powder and primers, check the measure after 10 or 20 throws to settle it, and start cranking out rounds.

buckbrush
February 23, 2012, 08:52 PM
if Redding does come out with a Progressive press, it will be a great one if it is up to the quality of the rest of their products.

GW Staar
February 24, 2012, 03:26 PM
GW,

I think the biggest difference there is I've owned and used both. There's are some things that stand out for me:

The biggest difference is we are different people with different likes.;)

1. With the LnL bushings, you don't get the die plate/tool head "slop." By that I mean the toolheads/die plates tend to move during press operation, because they have a certain amount of built in tolerances to allow for moving the toolhead/die plate in and out of the press. The Hornady LnL bushings twist in and out and "lock" in place, giving you a much more positive location for your dies. Much more like a single stage.

Dave, I like the slop. It makes things line up so I don't pull case out of align. 40 years ago I was taught by the "masters" at Handloader Magazine to "create" slop in Rock Chucker shell holders for the same purpose. It was simple really, you just loosen the spring holding the shell holder to the ram, so that it just holds...barely. I know you think Hornady does alignment best....I just don't agree. Depends how you use the press. Too fast with the handle makes less straight ammo with the Pro 2000 or the Dillons. With the Hornady you are totally dependent on Hornady for a perfect casting. You of all people know how fast that can go south. Judging from the many Hornady posts I've read over the last 3 years, Hornady isn't immune, nor do they outshine the other manufacturers in that dept.

2. The flexibility of the the LnL bushings is much higher than with the toolhead/die plate. If you're loading using a FL sizing die, you can instantly replace the FL sizing die with a completely adjusted, ready to use, Neck sizing die instantly. This is very convenient and I've missed this capability very much since I sold my LnL.

"Much higher".........maybe a little higher maybe 40 seconds. All my dies are pre-adjusted too, you just have to unscrew and rescrew.....but since I NEVER use neck sizers I don't care. Again the difference is in the humans.:)

3. Convenience of storage. I stored my dies with LnL bushings installed in an MTM case, which held four sets of dies at a time. Two of these boxes held most all the common caliber dies I had. A third held the rest. One can also use the Hornady die boxes to store the dies with the die bushings. Other brands of boxes sort of fit, but are tight.

Again different humans. I store may die heads in clear soft plastic index boxes, lined up neatly on their own 8" high x *" deep shelf at sitting eye level. Each die head has not only the normal dies mounted (preadjusted), but in the case of pistol dies, a bullet feeder die, and a Uniflow Powder through expander. In my mind (my mind) there's nothing faster or simpler.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Thankfully in this country we can.....so far.

Evidentally RCBS safe capacity may have changed. They now offer a larger capacity Uniflow for "large calibers." I suspect all of the "safe" capacity jargon may be slang for: "We designed it with this capacity, have thousands of these reservoirs in manufacture at the present and really don't want to change."

I suspect if enough pressure is put on the manufacturers, they will increase the capacity. That said, the Hornady and Dillon measures seem more designed for progressives, while the current Uniflow was designed for a single stage. RCBS has recently added a very large capacity powder measure for "large calibers" I called and got them to send me a couple of the reservoirs.

They are huge, bigger than either the Dillon or Hornady reservoirs. Unfortunately, they don't fit a standard Uniflow. But they do show RCBS can provide larger capacity reservoirs if they choose to.



Don't disagree with the powder volume issue, and, I have to say....I don't much like Sinclair's "fix" either. Where's the after market companies when you need them.

joed
February 25, 2012, 10:17 AM
I once looked at a box of primers and they exploded! That's pretty much on par with the calguns thread. There is much more to that 550 story then has been told. When something sounds unbelievable it usually is.

If you want to believe the static electricity theory look at where the primer was in the tube. It was in the middle of the tube. The story teller is leaving something out.

GW Staar
February 25, 2012, 09:13 PM
I once looked at a box of primers and they exploded! That's pretty much on par with the calguns thread. There is much more to that 550 story then has been told. When something sounds unbelievable it usually is.

If you want to believe the static electricity theory look at where the primer was in the tube. It was in the middle of the tube. The story teller is leaving something out.

Maybe so.....and then again maybe not.
Not sure what he has to gain by hiding the truth ot it. What he actually said was....he pulled the pin on the tube and it went off. Last I knew, when you pull the pin, the whole stack drops at the same time. That means detonation could happen anywhere along the tube where there was movement.

Scientifically why it went off is for the scientists....others came up with the static theory....the victim, only repeated the theory. (it wasn't my theory either, but rather than call the man a liar hiding the "real" truth, I thought (and still think) it perfectly plausible, having experienced personal jolts of a 1000 volts of static quite often in this dry as a bone part of the country. But believe what you want...

The point isn't why it went off, anyway....the point is it went off! There's plenty of real evidence of that part. 25, 50, or 100 primers stacked in a tube is the problem. Remember the point of this thread.....on the next generation presses, do we want the same old primer-stacked primer tubes that hurt people, or do we want the manufacturers to get off their duffs and make a better system.

If Dillon had invented APS it would be hailed from the rooftops. But they didn't. RCBS did...it's a safer, faster way to reload, and I'm hoping that all manufacturers will either use it someday or invent their own version of a modern, safer primer system. Come on folks, people have been blowing holes in things for 50 years with primer tubes.....it's time we insist on something better than a blast tube bandaid.

joed
February 26, 2012, 08:33 AM
I'm not saying the man in the story is a liar. What I'm saying is he hasn't given all the information. Something is missing, but I don't know what. I just don't buy into the static electricity belief.

I've never worked with APS primers so have no opinion about them. I have used the current system for 35 years with no mishaps.

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