A few home defense questions I couldnt find answers too after searching the forums


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ww2golfer
February 19, 2012, 01:54 AM
I dont want to start a 1911 vs glock war. I am new here but very familiar with pistols. I have plenty of different pistols and always just kind of threw whatever in the nightstand before bed. Generally winds up being my xd 40 subcompact, 1911 or glock 22. I am at a point I want to start condensing my array of pistols. I want to move towards all 1911 type and glock pistols and sell off everything else. After all that, my big question is does anyone know in the event of home invasion that average number of intruders? It is leading towards a capacity debate. I am trying to make my own decision as to what will be a better pure self defense pistol, but the lack of capacity on a 1911 scares me slightly in the event of multiple intruders. I am confident in my abilities, but say 3-4 assailants, that is double taps with 100% accuracy needed under duress. I have been searching the forums here and google and cant find if home invasions are usually 1-2 man jobs or more gang related attacks. Anyone with knowledge is appreciated.

I love pistols and would like to stick with the platform as the girl would be using my Winchester 1200.

One last thing on a side note, in a home invasion, do most people have a post up plan or a search and clear plan. If it is just myself and the girl and clearly hear a door kicked in, would most of you plan to load up and clear the house, or post up in a hall way or the bed room and wait for them to run into you?

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Telekinesis
February 19, 2012, 02:45 AM
Find a good defensible position and stay there and wait for the police. Clearing a house that you know has bad guys in it is dangerous when part of a trained team. Doing it by yourself is just stupid. If you don't think someone's there, it might be a good idea to check before you call in the Calvary, but if you are positive that multiple people have kicked in your door and are running around your home, don't give up your advantageous position. I know it's not PC to use this term, but when you get down to it, you are ambushing them. It is safer for you and safer for your family/SO who you will be protecting if you stay in one place and let them come to you.

As a general rule, rifles and shotguns are better for HD than pistols, and full sized pistols are better than subcompact pistols for HD. Not only is a long gun easier to use/aim, but it is much more effective than a pistol will be. That said, I would probably opt for more ammo, sometimes you can't always carry a spare mag. I'm not sure what the average number of intruders is, but I would hazard a guess that very few people come out of a gun fight saying "dang, I wish I'd carried less ammo" :D

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 19, 2012, 02:53 AM
One last thing on a side note, in a home invasion, do most people have a post up plan or a search and clear plan. If it is just myself and the girl and clearly hear a door kicked in, would most of you plan to load up and clear the house, or post up in a hall way or the bed room and wait for them to run into you?

If everyone is where they should be then there wouldn't be a chance of accidentally shooting the wrong person so I probably would clear. I wouldn't load up when I heard something though because all my defensive firearms are all loaded up and ready to go. My shotgun would be my backup plan as it's easier to maneuver with a pistol than a long gun. You can get 10 round magazines for the 1911 and then one in the chamber makes 11 which is definitely enough for HD. My HD handgun is a XD-40 full size with 13 rounds total and I wouldn't feel undergunned if I took two rounds out of the magazine or used one of my 10 round magazines.

If you want a 1911 then get one, if you want to use it for Home Defense then get a 10 round magazine. That's what I recommend. :)

That said, I would probably opt for more ammo, sometimes you can't always carry a spare mag.

If something goes thump in the night, I doubt I'm getting dressed where a reload sits on my belt. I think that at most 6 rounds is enough for Home Defense so I see that as a minimum starting point for handgun selection.

Certaindeaf
February 19, 2012, 10:27 AM
It runs the gamut. Get a dog and improve your perimeter. In SA they used "rape cages".. perhaps just bar your solid bedroom door while sleeping in there. Cooper wrote of the simple things that were advisable, especially while sleeping..

Spdracr39
February 19, 2012, 11:12 AM
Unless they are specifically coming after you for personal vendetta the remaining souls will be fleeing for life after you drop the first one. Keep an extra mag and remain in your defensible position until they leave. There is no need to shoot up all the neighbors houses with the 50 rounds you are firing chasing the bad guys out.

Lawdawg45
February 19, 2012, 11:44 AM
I dont want to start a 1911 vs glock war. I am new here but very familiar with pistols. I have plenty of different pistols and always just kind of threw whatever in the nightstand before bed. Generally winds up being my xd 40 subcompact, 1911 or glock 22. I am at a point I want to start condensing my array of pistols. I want to move towards all 1911 type and glock pistols and sell off everything else. After all that, my big question is does anyone know in the event of home invasion that average number of intruders? It is leading towards a capacity debate. I am trying to make my own decision as to what will be a better pure self defense pistol, but the lack of capacity on a 1911 scares me slightly in the event of multiple intruders. I am confident in my abilities, but say 3-4 assailants, that is double taps with 100% accuracy needed under duress. I have been searching the forums here and google and cant find if home invasions are usually 1-2 man jobs or more gang related attacks. Anyone with knowledge is appreciated.

I love pistols and would like to stick with the platform as the girl would be using my Winchester 1200.

One last thing on a side note, in a home invasion, do most people have a post up plan or a search and clear plan. If it is just myself and the girl and clearly hear a door kicked in, would most of you plan to load up and clear the house, or post up in a hall way or the bed room and wait for them to run into you?

Wow, 2 fantastic questions!

1. A vast majority of home invasions (vs. a burglary) will involve multiple suspects, but even with a single intruder you must consider the potential of them having a high capacity weapon. I always advocate carrying a minimum of 2 reloads, but in the middle of the night you won't throw a re-load in your jammies.:D, so I would absolutely advocate a high capacity pistol.

2. If you have no other loved ones in outside rooms, your bedroom should be your safe zone. Have a plan to protect that space and even use an outside type lock for the door. Secure yourself and call 911, let the professionals clear the house, but advise them of your location and that you're armed.

Again, great questions........LD;)

LTE
February 19, 2012, 12:22 PM
Great questions and some great replies. I totally agree, stay in your room till the police arrive, no sense in giving up the advantage unless you have a child in another bedroom.

I don't think it will matter which firearm you use, because if you fire even one round, I think the burglar(s) will high tail it out of there. They do not want to get into a fire fight. They want easy cash and that's it.

Read the book, "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad F. Ayoob. It will also give you some great insight as well.

beeb173
February 19, 2012, 12:46 PM
i think a barking dog and ANY gun would make more of a difference than having a UMP 45 w/ a tactical light and hundred round drum mag and zero warning. however, all things being equal, why, when concealability isn't an issue, would you choose less ammo?

Certaindeaf
February 19, 2012, 01:33 PM
.I don't think it will matter which firearm you use, because if you fire even one round, I think the burglar(s) will high tail it out of there. They do not want to get into a fire fight. They want easy cash and that's it..
Perhaps not. Many breakers specialize targeting remote domiciles. They will lay true seige and milk the cow 'til it screams.

LTE
February 19, 2012, 05:11 PM
Certaindeaf, that would be an interesting study. Would also be interesting to see how many work alone vs multiple burglars within a home.

BSA1
February 19, 2012, 08:56 PM
What do you mean by invasion? A burglar who guesses wrongly than no one is home or violent criminals intent on robbery and mayham?

In the first case I don't think you have much to worry about if the thief has a escape route. If he feels trapped he may react by fighting. Otherwise he is going to run like a rabbit

In the second case you are in deep do-do regardless. There will most certainly be more than one inturder and they will be armed. I would suggest you contact your local police department to find out how common homes invasions are in your community.

As for clearing the house the police dispatcher is going to tell you hide and not to use a gun to defend yourself. It is your call if you sit while the inturders clean your house out hoping the police arrive in time to catch them or to search your house for them. Nobody knows your house better than you so you have the advantage of knowledge of the layout, where valuables are kept, where light switches are and surprise.

My choice? Well I have never been good at sitting in a deer stand waiting for one to happen by. And I have this tactical model 870 sitting behind my bedroom door.

Mikhail Weiss
February 19, 2012, 11:35 PM
I have no idea what the average number of home invaders may be -- in local news I've seen anywhere from one to four (the latter were bounty hunters in the wrong house) -- but when it comes to defensive gun use and what to carry, I always consider what Sykes and Fairbairn wrote in their 1942 book, Shooting To Live:

1. it is good to have, “as many rounds as possible at one's disposal without having to reload,” and,
2. “the more that our handguns operate like machine-guns, the more that we like it.”

That in mind, I'd lean toward the Glock. A Glock 22, for instance, gives you twice as many chances to connect before reloading as a 1911. And considering the unreliable stopping power of handguns, more rounds on target beats less.

That said, Sykes and Fairbairn were fans of the 1911.

As to this:


One last thing on a side note, in a home invasion, do most people have a post up plan or a search and clear plan.


If I'm convinced someone is in the house, I'll likely follow the ABCs: Arm, Barricade, Call police. That's not because I believe that most home invaders are gun-wielding ninjas, but because staying put is generally safer than wandering into a surprise that may be armed, aggressive, and accompanied by buddies.

But if it's a bump-in-the-night that doesn't convince me that someone's in the house, I'll likely go see what it was. Sometimes that means shooing the cats out of the garden (I wrote shooing, not shooTing :) ), or picking up a bucket the wind's blowing around on the back porch.

allaroundhunter
February 20, 2012, 01:15 AM
I'm not exactly sure what the average number of home intruders per break-in is, but I do know that only one intruder can fit in through a doorway at once.

My thought is that if a second guy is behind the first, seeing his buddy get hit will send him running. If you have ever watched robberies of convenience stores you will see that as soon as a clerk fires, even if the robbers are armed, they haul butt out of the store. Criminals don't want to get shot any more than any of us.

I would be fine with either a 1911 or a Glock capacity-wise. That being said, my S&W M&P9 is my HD gun (don't have a 1911....yet ;))

One last thing on a side note, in a home invasion, do most people have a post up plan or a search and clear plan. If it is just myself and the girl and clearly hear a door kicked in, would most of you plan to load up and clear the house, or post up in a hall way or the bed room and wait for them to run into you?

Post up in a safe room and hope that the police arrive or the dogs scare off the intruder before I am forced to shoot. If I do have to shoot and see the subject flee (or fall) I will not advance. Whether I have to shoot or not, I will let the responding officers come to me and clear the house.

RLZIII
February 20, 2012, 01:37 AM
Like most people here have already said, since the ability to conceal is not a problem with a home defense pistol, I'd always go with more rounds than less. It may even be a good idea to have a home defense gun be very similar to your concealed carry weapon in order to take advantage of mussel memory, training, et cetera (for example, having your home defense pistol be a Glock 22 if your concealed carry pistol is a Glock 27; or a full-sized 1911 for home defense if your normally carry a 4- or 3-inch 1911). Keeping the same manual of arms and familiar platform for all self defense pistols (whether it be for the home, office, car, body/concealed carry, et cetera) will allow you to better default to your training in a high stress situation.

Also like most people have stated, if you are sure that at least one person has entered your home, I'd stay put unless absolutely necessary. If you have other kids or whatnot in the house, this of course becomes a harder decision to make. As an example, my wife and infant sleep in the same room as me. So if someone happened tonight, I'd set up shop in the master bedroom and wait for the police to arrive, instead of venturing out myself. However, when my kid is older and in a room of his own, my plan will change. My wife has her own home defense pistol. If I were convinced that one or more people entered my home, I'd have her call the police and stay put in the master bedroom (most likely with our shotgun instead of the aforementioned home defense pistol) while I retrieve my son and bring him back to the master bedroom. I wouldn't venture out any more than I had to. Once he is safe, it's back to the waiting game.

k soze
February 20, 2012, 01:47 PM
My dog is good for an early warning of a break in, when the dog jumps on the bed shaking I know something is wrong, he is not likely to chase anyone away. The dog knows the plan and will be more than happy to hold up in the bedroom.

I will not clear the house. Everyone is up stairs and has orders to get in one room. The stairs are a choke point my house and easy to defend. I feel well armed with 8 rounds in my 1911. At even two rounds each in the bad guys that is four bad guys clogging my little stairway.

Old krow
February 20, 2012, 04:38 PM
After all that, my big question is does anyone know in the event of home invasion that average number of intruders?

I'd be careful with the answer that you might get from that question. I found a blog while reading on this site by ferfal (I think) that had some interesting statistics on home invasions. Granted it was in Argentina and during their "collapse", but it showed a definite disparity between urban and rural instances. I would hazard a guess that even in the US geographical locales would be a factor.


If you want a 1911 then get one, if you want to use it for Home Defense then get a 10 round magazine. That's what I recommend.

Since you're not worried about concealing in your home that would be an option. I've heard that 10 rounds was about the max that 1911 mag could do and still feed reliably. I have nothing to back that up, it's just what I have read.

I am confident in my abilities, but say 3-4 assailants

Someone with more experience on this than I have could probably shed more light on this, but, I don't remember a lot of instances in which case someone defended their home against 3-4 intruders. I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, it just seems like it works out differently in most cases. "The homeowner shot 1-2 and the rest fled" or "Homeowner was killed by an unknown number of assailants."

Tipro
February 21, 2012, 03:34 PM
Spin off question: for those who plan to post up, do you plan on calling out a warning to the intruders?

If you call out, the intruders will (obviously) know someone with a firearm is in the house, and that the police are coming. This may scare them off; it may not. If it doesn't, you have given up the element of surprise. Now, queue Tony Montana spraying automatic fire through the walls. Kidding - odds of a person landing a hit while shooting blindly through a wall seems remote, but it is certainly possible.

Other considerations: Does the number of intruders you think you hear make a difference in whether you call out? Does your perception of their intended purpose? The location of your bedroom, or the number of doors into it?

allaroundhunter
February 21, 2012, 03:51 PM
Spin off question: for those who plan to post up, do you plan on calling out a warning to the intruders?

Nope. My locked doors, dogs and alarm system are all the warnings that they're gonna get. After that, they have made their choice and they have made my decision for me.

The best way to come out alive from a home invasion is to hole up, and ambush an threat if need be. Calling out gives away your position, and puts you (and anyone else near you) in added danger.


Actually, since you mentioned more than one intruder....the second one will get a warning....hopefully he won't be right behind his buddy in the doorway or it might not do him any good.

Derry 1946
February 21, 2012, 04:12 PM
Kids ages 11, 4, and 2. All bedrooms upstairs. If exterior doors are truly kicked in, the monitored alarm is going off; plan is to scoop up the kids, call 911, then hole up in the MBR, occupy the high ground with 12 ga. and a couple handguns, and wait for the cavalry. Anybody busts through the MBR door will ostensibly be coming in one at a time, and will be addressed one at a time. The 11-year old is trained to report to the rally point (MBR), but training a 4-year-old, much less a 2-year-old, has its practical limits. Realistically, gonna have to venture out there and scoop them up. At least they're all in adjacent BRs upstairs. I could wish for a better plan, but it's a lot of souls to protect...

Wanderling
February 21, 2012, 04:18 PM
Don't know the way your house is built but I think in most modern US homes I've seen a bullet fired in the basement would go out the roof. I may be exaggerating but not by much. Any firefight in the house built mainly of plywood and drywall with some wood studs in between is inadvisable especially if you have kids. So the second best solution is to hide in a relatively safe place with your gun ready, call 911, and don't start a fight unless forced to. And the first best is to move to an area with less crime (and still be prepared)

hogrdr
February 21, 2012, 04:33 PM
before you worry about after the break in. get a good photo eye and put it accross your driveway, it will detect cars or people and most will be coming up the drive, get a hard wired one and connect it to an off delay timer then to a buzzer or bell loud enough to wake you, i fenced my front yard across and added the eye at the drive for extra security. i got a 24v ac power supply, an outdoor eye and buzzer from smarthome, off delay timer from grainger, wired it all up. no one comes up the drive that i don't know about, period. i do have an alarm. but i don't want to find out someone is there when they kick in the door.

Derry 1946
February 21, 2012, 04:39 PM
before you worry about after the break in. get a good photo eye and put it accross your driveway, it will detect cars or people and most will be coming up the drive, get a hard wired one and connect it to an off delay timer then to a buzzer or bell loud enough to wake you, i fenced my front yard across and added the eye at the drive for extra security. i got a 24v ac power supply, an outdoor eye and buzzer from smarthome, off delay timer from grainger, wired it all up. no one comes up the drive that i don't know about, period. i do have an alarm. but i don't want to find out someone is there when they kick in the door.
Good idea.

Fiv3r
February 21, 2012, 05:00 PM
I think every gun owner has at least some theory on how they would handle this situation. After all, home defense is one of my primary reasons for owning and knowing how to operate a firearm.

For me, my bedside gun is Glock 21. I have 2 more magazines in the safe next to it, but honestly 13 rounds of .45apc should be enough for my needs. I like the look of 1911's, but I shoot Glocks a lot better. It really has nothing to do with capacity or marketing "perfection" as much as I can punch a very ragged hole at combat ranges with my 21.

My plan of action given a break in is to quietly assess the situation and listen for movement. Chances are, my dog would already be in there, but he can be a sound sleeper:neener: I have turned the beeps off on my safe, so it should be a fast and quiet open. My wife is to hunker down on the far side of the bed and call the police. I either cross the hall and get our year and a half old daughter or plunk myself right there in the hallway to make sure both doors are covered.

I live in a single floor ranch, so there isn't much to clear but there also isn't much to "go through" before they work their way back to the living area.

Skribs
February 21, 2012, 06:03 PM
One of the things that was said in court by a woman who was very PO'd at the lawmakers regarding gun control laws (I don't have the link to the video on this computer, I may update later) is that it doesn't matter if you have reduced capacity magazines or even single-shot pistols, because in the grand scheme of things, a reload doesn't take too long. Granted, she was talking about it from the perspective of preventing mass murder, but the same principle applies.

Personally, if you have the ammunition on-hand (preferably already in magazines if using an autoloader), I don't think there's too big of an issue with your capacity choice.

That said, I'm starting to lean towards 10+ for carry (I figure if I get attacked by a group of 4 guys - what you can expect to get into a car, 5-6 shots just isn't going to be enough), and spares for HD.

oneounceload
February 21, 2012, 06:11 PM
but the lack of capacity on a 1911 scares me slightly in the event of multiple intruders.

I have a 15 round magazine for a 1911; therefore get the one you like (and shoot) the best for HD

SecAmend75
February 21, 2012, 06:36 PM
Great thread! Thanks to everyone for their opinions.

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