So I hear the browning BAR is the hands down winner here. The only think I don't like is the 1:12 twist rate. Beneli also claims you can change you the caliber simply by changing the bolt and barrel and their gas system will compensate for the different pressures. Is this possible with the browning?
Does anyone own a newer remington 750? I've read they fixed their reliability problems but don't want to take it on remington's word. 've chased down their R25 only to find out their claimed weight of 7.75 was a gross lie! Remington apparently thinks I'm stupid. Makes me not want to believe anything they say.
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February 19, 2012, 07:08 PM
The FNAR and the commercial Browning BAR are two different rifles of course, although the FNAR is based on the BAR action. From everything I have read the FNAR is usally more accurate than a BAR, and I have two BARS. I'm assuming you are talking about the commercial BAR becasue a real military BAR is in a whole different price range. The main advantage to the FNAR is the ability to take large capacity magazines, I'm actually thinking about picking one up since the prices have come down to something reasonable.
I've shot a Benelli R1 and I can't find anything bad to say about them, really nice rifles.
I haven't shot a 750, in the old days the Remmy's were so poor in the accuracy department I never even considered one. The R25 is an AR10 platform made by DPMS isn't it?
February 19, 2012, 07:24 PM
Yes the remington r25 is a DPMS with gross exaggerations about weight. As much as I want to like the remingtons, they turn around and give me a whole different reason not too everytime. Usually when I picked up a gun they made I hand it back to the guy behind the counter saying, "you've got to be kidding me!"
From what I've read benelis are not very accurate at all. But they do look like nice rifles.
As far as shooting several rounds how many rounds in a row out of a 308 can you shoot a normal "Pencil barreled" hunting rifle before you get it to hot enough to start warping the barrel? Of course there's a lot that depends on that, so just for arguments sake let's say, with 180 grain bullets. I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say, 5 rounds before accuracy starts dropping off, 10 rounds before you can do damage to yourself if you touch it, and 15 rounds before the barrel is warped? IS that anywhere close to correct? Is stainless better for that?
February 19, 2012, 07:32 PM
i'd take the remington.cheaper,steel receiver.i think the newer bar's have gone to aluminum,unknown about the benelli.parts/accessories would be available more for the remington in the long run,and it's made in the usa
February 19, 2012, 07:44 PM
Out of my standard BAR's (.270 and 30-06) 3-4 shots is it before the barrel starts moving around and accuracy goes off. Although I haven't tried it I think in the FNAR with the heavy fluted barrel you will be able to get 10-15 rounds out quickly with reasonable accuracy, but yes it would get hot.
Here's one article on the FNAR, with the recent price drop to around $1000 I think I am going to get this instead of an AR10.
I actually owned an fnar for about 3 weeks. I walked into a wholesale sports and they had a fire sale on it for $750. Without knowing anything about it or guns in general I snatched it up. Never even shot it and finally concluded it was too heavy to pack around hunting all day long. So I kept the nice hard case and sold the gun to a friend for $1000. Still thinking about going back to a the lighter barrel version but will probably just end up with the normal BAR. My problem is I'm wanting a gun to do just a few too many things. I have to figure out what sacrifices I'm willing to give up or just buy two guns.
February 20, 2012, 02:25 AM
Yes, I remember your story about the FNAR. You started a thread, not so much to celebrate your great good fortune at buying the cheapest FNAR ever sold, but to cogitate about making it into a sub-sonic .308 rifle. Here you go: FNAR 10 subsonic (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=638253) I guess we talked you out of that idea. :banghead:
Since you were thinking about, or at least asking about, the Remington R-25, the AR-10 style .308 Win hunting rifle, please look at the Winchester SX-AR. The SX-AR is the FNAR style .308 Win hunting rifle. Here's a blog/review with a lot of commentary. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/10/15/new-winchester-sx-ar-autoloading-centerfire-rifle/.
I have not handled one of these SX-AR rifles, so I don't know, but hopefully FN has lightened it somewhat compared to the FNAR light barrel. (FN now owns Browning, Winchester and Colt - has also revamped, upgraded and geographically rearranged all the manuacturing plants.) But.... It looks like a dead ringer for an FNAR LB with a camo paint job. So you'll probably still think it is too heavy. But you'd think the Rem R-25 is too heavy too. All well-performing .308 Win semi-auto rifles must be heavy (~ 10 pounds), in order to tame the recoil, in order to enable rapid follow-up shots and avoid too much barrel heating. Else why have a semi-auto? [Well OK, OK, if you only need 1 or 2 rapid follow-up shots, then the Browning BAR hunting rifle will do.]
So maybe you don't need quite the rapid-fire aspect of a full-up semi-auto .308? Then consider a lever action! A Hillbilly Assault Rifle (HAR). The best lever gun in .308 is unquestionably the Browning BLR (http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/firearms/finder.asp?f1=003B&bg=x). It's a little pricey, very glossy-but-classy wood furniture and no high-cap factory mags (last I checked). But a gorgeous, smooth, accurate, fast-firing rifle. It has quite a following. You can find threads here on it.
February 20, 2012, 10:52 AM
Eou, it sounds like you want a rifle that has a large caliber, high capacity, low weight and is accurate. You might be able to get most of those, but not all.
As a FAL owner, I know that 20 rounds of .308 is heavy, and a barrel has to be pretty heavy to hold it's zero for .308. You could just come to terms with a 9 ot 10 lb rifle, or else consider reducing capacity, or pick a smaller round like th 6.5 grendel.
Personally I would go the route of picking a new caliber. .308 is a great round, but it is old and heavy. There are a lot of new rounds like 6.5 that are smaller, lighter and perform better. You might be able to build a nice AR in 6.5 that suits your needs.
Just food for thought.
February 20, 2012, 11:09 AM
No experience with the fnar but I do own a 308 LW BAR.I love it very accurate and reliable. The lightweight part is stretching a it little bit. I have 2 cousins who both bought Rem 750 308 carbines. Both guns have jammed multiple times with a wide range of ammo. Imho Rem has a little more work to do on these guns. They seem accurate enough for their intended use bear hunting with hounds. We have never even put them on paper at 100 yards.
February 20, 2012, 05:24 PM
I owned an old Rem 742 in 308. It was finicky about handloads... even with small base dies. Factory stuff shot great. The BARs I've had anything to do with shot reloads just fine(30'06). I hope that Rem has improved their build with the model 750. My $.02 worth.
February 20, 2012, 08:55 PM
I am a new owner to the FNAR mainly because of the big price drop FNH just had on the heavy model. Of the guns mentioned, I believe the only one that shots out of the box 1MOA or better is the FNAR. I can testifiy to that. The FNAR is a challange to take apart and clean, but is doable. I am happy with mine.
Some people say its not a battle riffle... And now that I own one, I would agree. But lets face it, the chances of me going into battle with it are slim to none. But for hunting, Plinking, bench, 3Gun, etc.. its a very good dependable rifle for the price.
February 21, 2012, 07:16 PM
Sorry about the double on my FNAR. When it all came down to it it's was just too heavy to carry around elk hunting all day for a week straight. So ended up selling it. Now looking at new options. I really just need to pull the trigger on something (no pun.) Story of my life I'm trying to get something I want to do way too many things at once. I'm a multi purpose kind of guy. There are rifles ballisticly better than the 308 for sure. But "better" is also a relative term. I'm definitely new to the world of ballistics but there is always something "better." The 3006 is better than the 308 because it shoots further, and the 300 win mag is better than the 3006, and the 338 is better than the 300 win mag, and the 378 is..........ect, ect. As I'm finding out now there is no magic gun caliber. For the most part guns follow the laws of physics, more power, means go further, but for every reaction there's and equal and opposite reaction, AKA kick. When you have a flinch as bad as I do (that's to my old 300 savage that the scope would knock me in the head everytime I shot), my need for a follow up shot, and want for a wide variety of ammo including 35 cents a round non corrosive surplus ammo, a semi auto 308 makes a lot of sense to me.
Thanks for all the input and I promise I won't speak of an FNAR again.
February 21, 2012, 11:17 PM
Guess until I personally ever have bad luck with any Remington, I will feel comforatable in continuing to buy them.
That faith has lead me to decide on a new 750 carbine (18.5") that I'm going to use for Hog Hunting.
I have a nice AR and thought seriously about an AR10, but kept going back to the 750 after handling one at Cabela's.
It points naturally, doesn't weight 10# like an AR10, easier handling with the short barrel, and well, it's just a whole lot prettier than an AR type rifle! :)
Maybe I'm "old fashioned," but I still prefer a more traditional rifle-plus, 4 shots is PLENTY of capacity for hog hunting.
February 21, 2012, 11:37 PM
I have shot all of the above and own a remington R-25 and 750. For the money the Remington 750 will shoot as good or better than Benelli, BAR/FNAR R-25. The 750 is the cheapest of the bunch and tied for lightest of the bunch. The 750 might not be as durable as an R-25 and it doenst even come close to being a battle rifle. If you are going to hunt I would say the 750 is the best bet. The only nit pick I have about the 750 is you might as well go for .30-06 or .270 over the .308 because there is no short action version, LA/SA get the same receiver.
February 21, 2012, 11:42 PM
Adelbridge, 30-06 is what I'm picking up Friday-thinking a 180 grn ought to do the trick really well
February 21, 2012, 11:51 PM
Yes, the FNAR HB (heavy barrel) is heavy, particularly with a 20-round mag and scope. Did you heft a light barrel FNAR LB? It's only about 1 pound lighter, but with a 5-round mag for hunting, it may make the difference. But, any way you cut it, the FNAR is NOT intended as a mountian rifle for sport. It's a purpose-built LE Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR).
I totally agree with you on selecting .308 Win as your all-around, go to cartridge. I have done so myself. I think a shooter ought to have a chambering that allows practice with a hundred rounds or so at the range or whatever, and not feel like he's/she's taken out a second mortgage. And no one will dispute you about the overall high capability and all-around versatility of the round.
I do have a .308 mountain rifle, a Marlin X7 bolt gun. It weighs 6.5 pounds. I also have experienced scope bite with heavy hunting rounds. I found that I have to press the rifle butt into my shoulder pocket with about 10-15 pounds of force, then place my eye at the scope's eye relief point, then squeeze off the round. This way, all the "slack" is taken out of my posture and there is not enough rearward travel under recoil to allow the scope's occular rim to strike my facial occular rim, so to speak.
You can probably pick up a used Rem 750 or Browing BAR in .308 Win for the $750 you originally paid for the FNAR. A good one. Very rarely shot.
And you can talk about the FNAR any time you want. :)
February 21, 2012, 11:55 PM
When you have a flinch as bad as I do (that's to my old 300 savage that the scope would knock me in the head everytime I shot), my need for a follow up shot, and want for a wide variety of ammo including 35 cents a round non corrosive surplus ammo, a semi auto 308 makes a lot of sense to me.
I see two very distinct issues here, and a third ancillary one. First off, you're recoil sensitive. Sounds like even your current 30-06 is over your comfort level. An 30-06 has about 25% more recoil than a 300 Savage. Its no problem, every one has an upper limit to recoil. Second, you must have poor shooting posture because there is zero reason you should be getting hit with the scope unless it has an extremely short eye relief. Finally, limiting yourself to a semi-auto action is really cutting down on the number of avaliable chamberings you can choose from. Bigger isn't always better, there are quite a few good 6.5mm sized cartridges that are perfect for everything up to Elk, albeit at a reduced range as compared to larger cartridges.
So, my three key pieces of advice for you are:
1.) Get a gun that you like and fits you. If you don't like the gun, you won't shoot it. Also, if the gun doesn't fit you, you won't want to shoot it.
2.) Look at cartridges that are more suited to your recoil tolerance. My go to rifle for any of the deer species and other "light game" is a BLR in 257 Roberts:
There is virtually no recoil and with that scope, I'd feel comfy for a 400+ yd shot on gophers if I ever wanted to do so. Shooting 120 Nosler Partitions, I'd say it'd be good for Elk out to 200yds, Moose out to 150yds at most. Its a solid hitter, but its only .257" across and you must make perfect shots with a bullet that small on that large of game. If I want to go after bears, black or brown, its a 45-70. The 45-70 is a big slow cartridge chambered in heavier guns with little recoil as well (depends on cartridge loading & rifle weight), but is range limited to around 200yds.
3.) Get a scope that fits you & the gun. You won't smacked in the face anymore and you'll enjoy shooting far more than you already do.
Once you have a gun & scope you like, have a friend watch you shoot and give you posture pointers.
February 22, 2012, 12:15 AM
I'll take my SX-AR and M1A over AR-10 any day of the week. Accurate semi-auto 308 and a bit heavy but an excellent performer that has minimal recoil.
I have no Remington in my stable nor Benelli.
February 22, 2012, 12:26 AM
Bill_Rights....I'm glad to see that someone here understands the intended purpose of the FNAR. While I would really respect a hunter that could lug one around a mountain all week in search of an elk, I wouldn't include the FNAR in a hunting rifle discussion unless it was used as a baseline of what not to get....unless the shooter just wants to build lots of upper body strength. :D
I have a .308 Ithaca bolt gun (Sako action) that is pretty light....and I realize it very time I pull the trigger when compared to my Savage 10 FCP HS Precision or FNAR. Unless it is putting meat on the table, I'll take one of the heavy .308s any day. ;)
March 6, 2012, 12:19 AM
I've been out of action for a few days so sorry for the late reply. I should add my flinch from my 300 savage came as one of the first guns I shot. The scope hit me in the head because it was a special "saddle version" with a short stock. Even with a stock extension pad on it, it still popped me in the head. But that is neither the hear nor the now. I've read somewhere 95% of shooters have a flinch of some sort. I found mine by accentually loading a dead shell and not knowing. When I pulled the trigger the flinch was very obvious. I'd rather get a smaller caliber and make a more accurate shot with a lighter recoil and also a faster follow up.
March 6, 2012, 02:24 AM
I wouldn't depart from the excellent all-around .308 cartridge just because of a flinch issue. Chances are it'll follow you to any round. Get some advice on your posture and recoil uptake, as several of us have said. Confidence is a must.
Once that's taken care of, get some specific advice on flinch. Or some training. I have heard of some exercises, but I can't think of them right now. I bet THR has a wealth of info and pointers on flinch. Why don't you start a new thread on that topic?
One training idea to "cement" muscle memory against flinch (but maybe not to overcome it in the first place) comes from shotgunning of moving targets. The rifle equivalent of this might be a panning aim, where you sweep the POA horizontally from way off to the side across your target, then squeeze off the round as the muzzle passes the target, then keep on sweeping after the shot. This action gives you a whole new eye-brain-nerve sequencing and processing pattern. You just bypass or overwhelm the old flinch reflex.
March 6, 2012, 03:07 AM
Actually i'm doing the opposite. I want to go with a 308 so my flinch isn't worse with a 300 win mag or a 338 or something bigger. I've read there are few shooters that don't flinch from anything with more than 20 lb of recoil, which is pretty much anything over a 3006. Don't know if that's true but it's an interested tidbit.
Honestly I think it's mental more than anything, plus the noise as I work hard at protecting my hearing which is very good. I probably shot 400 rounds of heavy 3" or 3.5" from my shotgun this winter wearing ear plugs. That kicks much worse than any rifle would. But it doesn't get in my head as much as shooting a rifle..........Which really doesn't make much sense i realize. It will probably just take shooting a lot more than I do. I'm like your average hunting and have pulled the trigger very few times on a rifle. Which is also why i want to go with a 308. At 35 cents a round it's good cheap practice.
March 6, 2012, 06:09 PM
Last year I traded in my M70 featherweight bolt for a Browing BAR LW stalker in 308. The gun is a shooter and will never be sold. I get 1" - 1.5" five shot groups at 100 yards with every 150 grain factory ammo I've tried in it. That's using a 6x scope. I really like the shorter 20" tube which makes it easier to handle in the big woods of northern MN. The gun has been 100% reliable and recoil is next to nothing compared to the featherweight 270 I owned.
No way would I buy the Remington. In my opinon they are not in the same league.
My boss just bought a Benelli R1 in 30-06 becasue of how impressed he was with my semi. He hasn't shot it yet so nothing to report on accuracy. One thing the gun shop owner told him when he bought it was if the Benelli wasn't assembled and torqued to the correct specs that they could have accuracy issues. In his opinion has long as it was put together correctly the R1 was a fantastic option.
March 7, 2012, 12:29 AM
I think we're talking past each other. When you said I'd rather get a smaller caliber and make a more accurate shot with a lighter recoil and also a faster follow up.I thought you were saying .308 was too much and you were thinking about going to a lower-recoil cartridge. But you actually meant that you want to come down to .308 from something heavier:I want to go with a 308 so my flinch isn't worse with a 300 win mag or a 338 or something bigger.OK; got that.
But I say that the typical .308 round is by no means light-kicking, especially shot out of a light rifle (< 7 pounds). Do take our advice about posture and flinch training.
You don't want to start a new thread on flinch? I'll do it....
March 7, 2012, 01:16 AM
As usual, THR is way out ahead of us. There are at least two recent threads on avoiding flinching. Neither is specifically about high-power rifles (which .308 certainly qualifies as), but they are still very good:
Teaching someone not to "flinch" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=646481)
I noticed all most no recoil out of my 308 BAR. I think much of it is the way the stock is configured. It has a good recoil pad and the gas system and additonal weight helps. The 270 winchester featherweight was a light gun with a thin stock and crap recoil pad. That thing had a super sharp kick. I didn't even know I had developed a flynch until a shot the BAR and went to pull the trigger with the safety still on. The recoil was night and day differnt. By the end of my first shooting session with the BAR I was just calm and relaxed and putting the best groups I've ever shot on paper.
March 9, 2012, 12:56 AM
Yeh, testing yourself for flinch is one of the things discussed in the two threads to which I linked. For example, you can also have someone else load your magazine with a random mix of real cartridges and snap caps. One guy mentions that you can also tune up (or have a gunsmith do it) your trigger mechanism so that you have a more or less steady draw-back and cannot tell when the sear is going to release. Therefore you do not know when the bang stick is going to go "BANG". (I think some people call that "trigger creep" or excessive slack, though.) There are many other suggestions in those threads - worth a quick skim-thru.
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