A 22lr mystery (for me at least)


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Psa1m144
February 19, 2012, 06:35 PM
I can't imagine that this hasn't been discussed in the past, but I can't find it in any searches. Why on earth do 22lr semi-auto pistols only hold 10 rounds. With how small the cartridges are, they should be able to fit 20-30 in a magazine. I am confident in gun manufacturers intelligence and creativity and the technology has to be out there. Am I the only one that would buy one of these? There has to be something I am overlooking. I would even settle for some aftermarket extended mags.

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TonyT
February 19, 2012, 06:59 PM
A magazine for a rimmed cartridge requires a bit more room (front to back) than for a rimless cartridge. That being said one can purchase 15 rd. 22 magazines for the Ciener 1911 - 22 conversion unit.

Starter52
February 19, 2012, 07:20 PM
TonyT is correct; also it is difficult to stack up a lot of rimmed .22 cartridges without jamming. This is the reason why so many cheap aftermarket hi-cap .22 magazines don't work. It can be done (my GSG-5 hold 22 rounds and functions perfectly), but some engineering is required. A rotary (Ruger 10/22 style) magazine solves the problem.

rcmodel
February 19, 2012, 08:33 PM
Just for your own info.

Take 30 rounds of any rimfire ammo and lay them side by side on the kictchen table with bullets and rims touching.

See why they won't fit in a straight magazine now??

rc

J2FLAN
February 19, 2012, 09:01 PM
The new COLT GOV. 22 holds 12--its a start;)

Psa1m144
February 19, 2012, 09:32 PM
See why they won't fit in a straight magazine now??
I understand that it would be more difficult than a magazine designed for centerfire ammo. What I am saying is that, there are plenty of very talented gunsmiths and gun manufacturers out there with the know-how to pull it off.

For example:
Take the 22/45 magazine. If you put 2 of those side by side, flipped one upside down and linked them together so that the ammo would go down one then up into the other, you would have a 20 round mag no longer than the original and no wider than a normal doublestack mag. This would take a unique spring/tension system, but I think it's possible. There have been far more impressive advances in firearm technology than this.

Is the gun industry truly stumped by this? Or like I said before, is there no market for it?

johnnydollar
February 19, 2012, 10:00 PM
Kel-Tec managed to stuff thirty rds of .22 Win. Mag. into their PMR-30 pistol. How 'bout that one?

Psa1m144
February 19, 2012, 10:16 PM
They were supposed to make a conversion kit for 22lr but they never did from what I can find. I have no use for the expensive 22 wmr.

gbran
February 19, 2012, 10:40 PM
My Magnum Research Mountain Eagle has 15 rnd mags. The recent Kel-Tec 22wmr holds 30, but I get your point; you'd think hi-cap mags would be common.

Kush
February 19, 2012, 11:48 PM
It wouldn't work due to the rims changing the angle that the next cartridge would be at, each cartridge slowly gets more and more angled. In a 10 round single stack magazine the 10th round is at a 20 degree angle to the first and in a 15 round single stack magazine the 15th round is already at a 30 degree angle to the first, can't tell you about double stack magazines as the .22 ammunition that I'm using won't cooperate as I stack it on my desk, but as you can see it isn't exactly friendly for a magazine required to fit inside of a pistol grip, defiantly with how the first round is already slightly angled to make it feed more reliably. Also the .22 wmr that the Kel Tec pmr 30 uses are longer and therefore don't start angling as much as .22 lr

plexreticle
February 20, 2012, 12:10 AM
Grendel p30 is also a 30 round rimfire.

No idea why high cap. isn't more common. Perhaps most popular 22LR pistols are fairly old designs.

kozak6
February 20, 2012, 01:06 AM
Double stack magazines .22 lr magazines are very difficult to make work well.

A friend of mine had the 50 round double stack Ramline magazine for his 10/22. It caused lots of jams. Until it broke in, it would leave your thumbs bleeding and you won't be able to get more than 30 rounds in.

Later on, it was out of commission for a few years since a round had leaned over into the other stack and locked the whole thing up.

Their double stack magazines functioned so poorly that Ramline discontinued the whole line.

The Grendel/Keltec is an unconventional design and is basically two single stack magazines that feed into the same column.

lathedog
February 20, 2012, 10:43 AM
22LR is a tricky beast. It is outside lubed, typically uses dirty powder, has inconsistent priming, has a relatively soft case with soft rim.

I think, bottom line, the consumer has been relatively satisfied with 22LR pistols holding 10 (or 12, or 15) rounds.

If Keltec made a 22LR version of their P-30, and sales went thru the roof, the other manufacturers might invest in designing a higher capacity 22LR and try to get some of that customer base. Or. more likely, they would make a knock-off copy of the Keltec and then earn many prestigious industry awards for creativity and "changing the game". Sound familiar?

RustHunter87
February 20, 2012, 11:15 AM
you guys the 22LR has been around for over a century and the WMR has been around since the 60's and the kaltec came out last year, so the 22 high cap is like the most advanced bit of rimfire tec out there

BCRider
February 20, 2012, 12:30 PM
Where there's a will there's a way.

Consider this. If the rounds are just simple stacked then sure, a long stack of them creates a bannana shape. Hence why most high capacity rimfire mags for rifles and such are curved.

But what if the rounds are single stacked at the bullet but staggered to a double stack setup at the back? The side to side staggering would compensate for the larger diameter of the rims. And of course the last 5 or so rounds would rise up through a tapered rear section of the magazine to arrive in true single stack condition at the top.

I don't recall which gun it was but I've seen this on a rimfire magazine at some point in the last year. It was only a 10 rounder as well. But I could see a handgun mag holding more like 12 or 14 rounds.

Higher capacities than this would likely not happen. To do so you'd need to run a full on double stack magazine. Something that a rimmed case likely would not do well. Also more than any other handgun .22 pistols are intended to be junior and small hands friendly. Going to a 15 to 20 round double stack setup would buld up the grip area quite a big.

Finally there's enough states or countries where handguns are limited to 10 rounds that it may just not be economically worthwhile to make 12 to 14 round mags for the states where there is no limit.

langenc
February 20, 2012, 02:16 PM
If you want to just 'spray and pray' stick w/ a 10/22..

22 matches require shooting only 10 rounds. No need for 20 or 30.

Myles
February 20, 2012, 02:39 PM
Smith & Wesson makes 12 round magazines for the 41, 2206, 422, 622.

The PMR-30 uses a true side-by-side, double stacked magazine akin to modern rifle magazines, rather than the usual tapered centerfire pistol magazines. If it can be done with .22WMR, it could be done with .22LR, but apparently the demand isn't there yet.

Geneseo1911
February 20, 2012, 02:50 PM
Well, I for one agree with the OP. Those 10rd. mags in my 22/45 run out way too fast. I'd like to buy some more so I don't have to do so much loading, but Midway never seems to have them.

If someone came out with a higher capacity .22 pistol, especially one that mimicked common centerfire guns, I'd be very interested.

Maybe a .22 BHP....wouldn't that be sweet.

KodiakBeer
February 20, 2012, 03:22 PM
Why hasn't someone come up with a rimless .22 "auto"?

ATLDave
February 20, 2012, 03:28 PM
Why hasn't someone come up with a rimless .22 "auto"?

I don't know, but I figure making a rimless rimfire would be kind of challenging.

Shadow 7D
February 20, 2012, 03:40 PM
look up RIMLOCK
and that's why

Kodiak, what about the .17 center fires?
how would you do it, and .22 head spaces on the rim, which makes chambers and actions easy to make.

F-111 John
February 20, 2012, 03:48 PM
As mentioned before, Kel Tec managed to double stack the rimmed .22 WMR. I've heard they're working on a .22 LR version. Perhaps the shorter case length makes .22 LR harder to double stack?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/images4/e123-2.jpg

Walt Sherrill
February 20, 2012, 03:49 PM
Why hasn't someone come up with a rimless .22 "auto"?

That's a lot of trouble to go to just to get a few extra rounds. Nobody thought those extra rounds were all that important until they started making 15+ round centerfire mags for police and home defense weapons. I'm not sure they really DO consider the extra rounds all that important for a gun that is generally NOT used in critical situations.)

(They are still a LOT of 5- and 6-round revolvers being made and sold.)

KodiakBeer
February 20, 2012, 04:37 PM
That's a lot of trouble to go to just to get a few extra rounds.

I think it would work though. You could have the firing pin fall opposite the extractor to create an "anvil" for the rimfire. Other than that, it would just be a matter of forming the cases differently. A centerfire .22 would be too expensive for the training and plinking we do with most .22's.

Though, as Shadow points out you'd probably have to redesign weapons to use them because of the headspacing. You could design a broad, stiff extractor as both an anvil and as a way to headspace the round.

Imagine a Hi Power or Glock conversion unit with 30 round mags. I could have a lot of fun with a gun like that.

zoom6zoom
February 20, 2012, 05:05 PM
You could always go with a belt fed .22 pistol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_P7LWQCPoc&feature=player_embedded#!

7.62 Nato
February 20, 2012, 07:08 PM
you guys the 22LR has been around for over a century and the WMR has been around since the 60's and the kaltec came out last year, so the 22 high cap is like the most advanced bit of rimfire tec out there
And the Grendel P30 was made between 1990-94 until the assault weapon ban. And guess what? The KEL-tec PMR30,and the GRENdel P30 were both designed by George KELLGREN. George Kellgren is an owner and Chief Engineer. He is the Swedish designer who also designed many earlier Husqvarna (in Sweden), Swedish Interdynamics AB (in Sweden), Intratec, and Grendel brand firearms. According to the ATF[2], Kel-Tec is the third largest handgun maker in the U.S.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kel-Tec

Psa1m144
February 20, 2012, 09:21 PM
Belt fed... hmmm...:rolleyes:

Carl N. Brown
February 20, 2012, 09:53 PM
Why on earth do 22lr semi-auto pistols only hold 10 rounds.

The standard course of fire in a target match is ten shots per target for score.

I bought my Ruger Mark II as a target pistol (also serves as woodswalking sidearm) and I suspect the largest market for full-size .22 pistols is target shooting and to a lesser degree small game hunting.

RustHunter87
February 20, 2012, 10:15 PM
ok so maybe the p30 is not brand new tech learn somethin new every day, But i do know i wish i could unlearn about that Grendel, that thing looks like some sort of nightmare :barf:

7.62 Nato
February 20, 2012, 10:29 PM
But she'll dance all night long. Don't knock it until you've tried one. I prefer it to the PMR30 except for the sights. The PMRs definitely jump out at you.

CZguy
February 20, 2012, 10:58 PM
I've kinda gone in the other direction, and download my magazines to five or six rounds.

I shoot a .22 pistol primarily for center fire training, so I want to practice changing magazines.

BCRider
February 21, 2012, 02:58 AM
Kodiakbeer, if you intend to use the extractor hook as an anvil that's going to come with a lot of problems. First of all the extractor will move somewhat and that'll remove some of the impact force. Then there's the issue of that rather delicate extractor hook being beaten on by the firing pin forces. Finally you're now tring to pack both the firing pin and extractor hook into the same place in the slide. That's a lot of competition for the real estate in that area.

Jim K
February 21, 2012, 01:48 PM
The usual way to get more RF rounds in a magazine is to make it wider at the back. That allows the rounds to stack better, but there is a limit. There have been large capacity .22 LR magazines, holding as many as 50-100 rounds, but they were more on the order of "to show it can be done" than anything very practical for a conventional handgun.

Jim

NOLAEMT
February 21, 2012, 02:00 PM
Isn't the 25 acp in essence a rimless 22?

Shadow 7D
February 21, 2012, 06:22 PM
Um, actually it was to 'solve the ignition issues and magazine issues' of the .22 rimfires, so YES.

exavid
February 22, 2012, 02:20 AM
It's just harder to put rimmed cartridges in a magazine. That's why most .22 handgun magazines are designed with such a steep angle to accomodate the overlap of the rimmed cartridges. My new Ruger SR22 has an interesting magazine, it's still a ten shot mag but almost a vertical design. The rimmed ends of the cartridges are staggered sideways while the bullet ends are sitting inline. I hadn't seen a .22 pistol magazine set up that way. It's considerably shorter than my Buckmark ten shot magazine too which seems to be the reason for the odd stagger in the SR22 mag. If the pistol's butt was a bit longer it looks like that setup would work for 15-20 rounds without getting too long. It works well in the SR22, I've sent about 400 rounds through mine without a single problem.

GLOOB
February 22, 2012, 03:27 AM
But what if the rounds are single stacked at the bullet but staggered to a double stack setup at the back? The side to side staggering would compensate for the larger diameter of the rims. And of course the last 5 or so rounds would rise up through a tapered rear section of the magazine to arrive in true single stack condition at the top.

I don't recall which gun it was but I've seen this on a rimfire magazine at some point in the last year.

This magazine is manufactured by Phoenix Arms for the $120.00 pot metal HP22A. And it's absolutely brilliant. The gun itself is a good design with some manufacturing issues. But after a tune up, and as long as I don't rub the slide or run into a dud, this gun is utterly, stone-cold, 100% reliable. It's incredible. I've had way more jams on my MkIII (about 3, which is way more than pretty much zero).

If a major manufacturer would make a quality 22LR, like a Buckmark or a MkIII, but it borrowed from the Phoenix Arms HP22A magazine design, I think it would be an instant hit.

Here's a picture of the HP22A 10-rd mag next to a 10-rd Ruger magazine:
http://i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv241/gloob27x/hp22a.jpg

You can see there's an indentation along the side of the magazine (on both sides) that holds the nose of the bullets in a single column. Then the base of the cartridges flare in either direction.

If the HP22A magazine were as long as a Ruger MkIII magazine, I think it might hold 16-18 rds.

Here are some more pics of the mags and the gun that shoots 'em.
http://bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5210

This method works for 22 Colibris, which are even shorter than 22LR. So the challenges of working with a short, rimmed cartridge have already been overcome. It's just a matter of someone making the darn thing.
http://bryco-jennings-jimenezarms.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4107

XxBulletBendeRXx
February 22, 2012, 03:29 AM
I Dont Know Why Kel Tec Didnt just make a Regular 22LR anyway. They had to pick the Magnum, Why not have the MAgnum option for an Upgrade.. I woulda bought that. And So would a lot of others, I would think... Anyway, My point is , I think they got that 30 rounder Bass Ackwords!! :scrutiny:

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