?AA#5 9mm Luger Load Data


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1SOW
February 19, 2012, 07:51 PM
Does anyone have any experience with this powder and 9mm load results?

LEE AA#5 Load Data for 124gr Jacketted Bullet at 1.095" shows:
5.8gr start/1069'/sec To 6.4 max/1200'/sec

My Load Tests for a 125gr JHP at 1.095, (3.6" bbl Sig):
5.8gr 1010'/sec avg, 6.2 grs 1045'/sec avg.

I didn't expect to be this far off from the published bullet speeds, even with the slightly shorter Sig bbl.. The test rounds felt snappy and shot very accurately.
Maybe my chrono is off?

What do you think?

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rcmodel
February 19, 2012, 08:05 PM
I think you could have 55 FPS difference between to identical guns shot side by side on the same day.

I think no two barrels are identical in exact bore dia, exact chamber dimensions, or surface finish & bore friction.

I think it is very unusual for published load data to ever match the real world results.

I think Lee neglected to tell you what barrel length the data was shot in. An inch can make a 55 FPS difference with some powders.

I think Fuggedaboutit.

rc

1SOW
February 19, 2012, 08:09 PM
rc, I hear what your saying, but I've never seen this much difference before.
I'm trying for about 1100'/sec +, and am not even close. The data showed 1200'/sec, so I "assumed" I could make 1100.
I didn't want to push harder (shorter oal/more powder), because of the high pressures this powder gens up. I'm already "seated" deeper than shown on other load manuals.

I'll go to better powders, but this just surprised me.

Walkalong
February 19, 2012, 08:14 PM
I have two 1911s in .45 that will show a 50+ FPS difference in all loads. The one barrel is simply "faster".

Your results look OK.

buddhas
February 19, 2012, 08:19 PM
Sorry , no experience so far. I understand #5 ( med.) burn is pretty good with Rainier copper plated bullets. I will check and get and get back to you.

buddhas

squarles67
February 19, 2012, 08:19 PM
My guess is the short barrel but Accurate's data doesn't give the test barrel length. If it was really cold the day you shot that could cause some variation as well.

6.1g AA#5 gave me 1130 fps out of a CZ75B with a Sierra 125 JHP

1SOW
February 19, 2012, 08:21 PM
I tend to be stubborn, but I do understand what you guys are saying.

I'll have to buy powder to get the speed up. I rarely load hot, so I was trying use what I've got on hand.

HS-6? (dirty?)

squareles67, coincidence is that I shoot a 75B too. I need this to go 1100'/sec in my Sig 239. [70deg day]. :-)

rcmodel
February 19, 2012, 08:24 PM
Another thing is.
Lee doesn't have a ballistic lab.
Lee copied any data they publish from the Powder & bullet manufactures public data.

Most all powder manufactures use SAAMI minimum spec, single-shot pressure test barrels, not real guns.

Their results will almost certainly be higher then yours will.

rc

squarles67
February 19, 2012, 08:26 PM
Power Pistol will put some snap in 9mm, so will Blue Dot. Those are two of my favorites in 38 Super

1SOW
February 19, 2012, 08:35 PM
squareles67, Blue Dot shoots dirty and a flame-thrower in 9X19 3.6" bbl.
This was a preliminary test for a S.D. load using a different bullet just to see how the AA#5 ran.

Hondo 60
February 19, 2012, 08:45 PM
You could try HS-6, but you're NOT gonna equal Hodgdon's data.
They used a closed pressure test barrel as rcmodel said.

I've tried 5 or 6 different Hodgdon powders in various calibers and almost always come up about ~100 fps slower (sometimes even more).

Good Luck & please stay safe.

1SOW
February 19, 2012, 08:55 PM
Guys, I'm not trying to equal anyone's powder data. I'm trying to get 1100+'/sec using a moderately clean-burning powder out of a Sig239.

Data showed AA#5 should do it, but maybe not. So far, I'm a 55'/sec slow.

squarles67
February 19, 2012, 09:11 PM
Didn't realize you were talking about self defense ammo, you're right about Blue Dot big flash (same for Power Pistol)

Have you tried HP-38/Win 231? 4.8g HP-38 under a 125g Rem Golden Saber gave me 1115fps out of the same CZ-75B. It is above max but I also tried 5g with the same bullet and got 1173fps

ssyoumans
February 19, 2012, 09:41 PM
I get 1106 fps out of a Glock 26 (3.5" barrel) with 4.9gr of Unique and a Berry's 124gr Plated Round Nose at 1.140". A little faster with a 124gr LRN.

Take a look at Unique, although some don't like the way it meters.

Striker Fired
February 19, 2012, 10:54 PM
There's always Longshot,that will get you the most speed as any.But I don't know if it will work good in the 9.

1SOW
February 20, 2012, 12:26 AM
Thanks guys.
What's funny, is I can give you loads that will run a 124gr bullet to 1400+ ft/sec in a 5" bbl, but I'm having trouble finding one to get a "tame" clean 1100+ in this Sig.:D

gamestalker
February 20, 2012, 02:26 AM
Published velocities are only as good as the instrument they were derived from. In this respect, some data is based on the use of test barrels, also know as universal recievers, not actual firearms.

On the other hand, the pressure estimates published are determined by the use of very accurate and expensive transducers, and is very reliable. Although no two firearms are going to have the exact same chamber or barrel dimensions, the pressure data we base our loads on is about as close as the industry can get in providing us with a safe range to work with. This is one of the primary reasons we are told to work up from a low end starting charge.

The only semi reliable velocity data out there are the one's that are based on tests performed from an actual firearm, rather than a universal testing reciever. So I would doubt there is anything hinky about your chronograph.

ArchAngelCD
February 20, 2012, 04:32 AM
LEE AA#5 Load Data for 124gr Jacketted Bullet at 1.095" shows:
5.8gr start/1069'/sec To 6.4 max/1200'/sec

My Load Tests for a 125gr JHP at 1.095, (3.6" bbl Sig):
5.8gr 1010'/sec avg, 6.2 grs 1045'/sec avg.
Something looks wrong with those numbers but it's not the comparison to the book velocities that bothers me. I have used AA#5 before and it's hard to believe you added .4 grains of powder to a 9mm case and only raised the velocity 35 fps. Did you have the chrono too close to the pistol muzzle? Something isn't right there...

Another question, why didn't you test the Max charge from the manual if you're trying to compare velocity numbers?

BullfrogKen
February 20, 2012, 12:57 PM
I use No 5 all the time. When I want a fast 9mm, I use Vihta Vuori 3N37.


I'd say your experience with not seeing published velocities is something we all experience. If I saw those results from a 3.6" barrel I'd call it fine. It is what it is. Although I agree with ArchAngel's comment on seeing such a small difference in velocity with a .4 gr increase.

Clark
February 20, 2012, 01:24 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

When I started handloading ~ 12 year ago, one of the first things I did was try to overload a 9mm pistol with every bullet and powder combination to see what happened.

AA#5 is a special case.
If a gun cannot be blown up with AA#5, it cannot be blown up.
Not only does AA#5 have a very high speed-density product, but it is also peaky. By "peaky" I mean a large change in the change pressure per in powder [ second derivative is change in change]. Blue Dot is peaky like this, but Blue Dot is so slow and bulky in comparison that Blue Dot can do almost nothing in the short and thick chambered 9mm.

I don't think I ever went passed 8.4 gr AA#5 in 124 gr.
That is because of all the parts I blew out of my Kel-Tec P11 with AA#5 and 115 gr.

At 9.8 gr the primer would pierce and the case would bulge with a .19" case support and cases with webs .16" thick [very typical for 9mm].
As I kept going, before I reached 12 gr, I had blown the extractor in half, the extractor pin in half, the bottom plate off the magazine, and the magazine follower, magazine spring, and ammo landed around my feet. Gas and metal sprayed out the back of the pistol via the slot in the slide for the ejector.
I now stock extra Kel-tec parts for that kind of unscheduled disassembly.

Contrast AA#5 with Power Pistol, which just keeps kicking harder, making more noise, making the chrono go higher, while the pressure increases are small.

1SOW
February 20, 2012, 10:38 PM
ArchAngelCD: Something looks wrong with those numbers but it's not the comparison to the book velocities that bothers me. I have used AA#5 before and it's hard to believe you added .4 grains of powder to a 9mm case and only raised the velocity 35 fps. Did you have the chrono too close to the pistol muzzle? Something isn't right there...

Another question, why didn't you test the Max charge from the manual if you're trying to compare velocity numbers?

Ah, someone read my post. I felt exactly the same, and that's why I asked in the first place.
The CE chrono still reads my go-to USPSA loads the same as always. The chrono was out 10' from the muzzle, 68+ degs, sunny, mid-day, sky screens on, new 9v battery. The results I got "here" bothered me. It did not make sense to me. Speed should have gone up more than it did

With the "illogical" results I got at 6.2grains, I didn't trust going to 6.4 due to the chance it might "spike" the pressure up too high. Something wasn't making sense.
I'm not real fond of using the MAX load of ANY powder as my load. I prefer to be at 85-90% of max to get the speed I need.

Clark, A#5 is not a particularly fast burn-rate powder. It IS very dense with very small particles. 231 and n320 are "faster burning" powders than #5. I've loaded many many thousand rds with n320 mostly. #2 IS fast-burning. #7 is slower yet. The "sub-sonic" 1100ft/sec with a 124/125gr jacketedHP is a long ways from being a super hot load.

squarles67
February 21, 2012, 09:49 AM
Lyman #49 shows a max of 6.2g AA#5 with a 125 JHP with a velocity of 1078fps using a universal receiver with 4" bbl. That's not really all that far off from your initial reading. I'm not looking at it right now but IIRC there were only three powders that got more than 1100 fps, Power Pistol, Blue Dot and one other I can't remember right now.

edit to add: I think the third one was AA#7

Clark
February 21, 2012, 06:35 PM
1SOW
Clark, A#5 is not a particularly fast burn-rate powder.

At low pressures it is slow, but at high pressures it is fast.
I don't know the official bomb test, but I can tell from handloading that AA#5 is way faster than Power Pistol at high pressure, but show up in burn charts to the right of PP.

Walkalong
February 21, 2012, 06:57 PM
Just as 700X and AA #2 are fairly forgiving at higher pressures compared to Red Dot.

The closed bomb test gives the powder a place on a chart, but they can act completely differently at high vs low pressures, or vice versa, as in the case of W-296.

1SOW
February 21, 2012, 10:48 PM
H6-6 will also do it with low pressures according to Hogdon---I know-I know. May be what I try/buy next.
Thanks to everyone for the inputs.

ArchAngelCD
February 22, 2012, 12:23 AM
H6-6 will also do it with low pressures according to Hogdon---I know-I know. May be what I try/buy next.
Thanks to everyone for the inputs.
Even though I'm a huge fan of HS-6 I have to admit Longshot is just a little better in the 9mm with jacketed bullets in my experience. (and that hurts me to say it!) BUT, when loading lead bullets in the 9mm W231 and HS-6 are great...

1SOW
February 22, 2012, 01:27 AM
ArchAngelCDEven though I'm a huge fan of HS-6 I have to admit Longshot is just a little better in the 9mm with jacketed bullets in my experience. (and that hurts me to say it!) BUT, when loading lead bullets in the 9mm W231 and HS-6 are great...

Do you think Longshot will drive a 124gr jhp to 1100'/sec at less than a max load in a 3.6" bbl? How about muzzle flash?
I'm not too concerned about dirty. I shoot my carry pistol, but not enough in one range trip to get excited about powder cleanliness.
Thanks for the advice.

ArchAngelCD
February 22, 2012, 01:46 AM
I don't think you will get 1,100 fps with a less than max charge with that bullet and barrel. BUT, both HS-6 and Longshot are listed as the highest velocities of all powders on the Hodgdon site.

Longshot isn't dirty from what I've seen and the flash is not that bad.

1SOW
February 22, 2012, 02:01 AM
Thanks again.
I'll mull that over.

What's wierd, is that I have chrono'd my minor PF 124gr jacketed loads for a 4.72" CZ at 1040--ish. My Sig will shoot those and chrono maybe 20'/sec less'--it's been a couple of years back.
I have some 115gr SD commercial ammo, but no 124gr to compare with.

ArchAngelCD
February 22, 2012, 02:22 AM
Even though I don't think Longshot and HS-6 will get you where you want to be neither will any other powder I looked at. AA#5, Unique, Power Pistol and a few others are not listed with higher velocities than Longshot and HS-6. If you use HS-6 you will generate less pressure than Longshot at the same velocities.

GooseGestapo
February 22, 2012, 06:10 AM
I noted from your original posting that you used two different bullets, also. 125gr vs. 124gr. This, as well as cart. oal. will make things "change".

The short bbl of the SIG is what is giving you the "challenge". That, and the fact that most 9mm data is rather "conservative" as small changes in things such as primer, case, and seating depth (especially when bullet mfg isn't specified) will make large difference in pressure/velocity.

I think that you can slightly increase the charge weight of the #5 until you reach your velocity requirement. 55fps isn't that hard given the selection of components you have. I know of one smaller ammo manufacturer that uses a similar "recipe" for it's factory ammo that has a powder charge higher than Hodgdon lists as "maximum". It's about 5% heavier than Hodgdons load. But, then again they do their own ballistic testing, and have been loading that load for over 20yrs.... And a number of Police agencies use it as an "issue" load.

It's your gun, your ammo. You do as YOU feel neccessary.
I've got a Springfield HD-Compact. My SD load is a factory 124gr GoldDot +P load (Not Speer!) that runs around 1,150fps from the short barrel, so, I know exactly what you are looking for.....

Walkalong
February 22, 2012, 07:27 AM
N340 gave surprisingly good velocities in my 3" EMP using 124/5 Gr jacketed bullets. It beat other powders that gave more velocity in the 5" & 16" barrels. By a "sit up and take notice" margin.

BullfrogKen
February 22, 2012, 08:33 AM
Yup, Vihta Vuori powders are good like that.


Extremely clean, achieving velocities other powders can't reach without getting over-pressure signs. In my experience anyway. I played around with different powders getting 1400 fps out of my 9x23 Commander. VV 3N37 was the only one that could do it for me without cratering and piercing primers - small rifle primers.

Anytime I want some high velocity 38 Supers or 9mms, I use 3N37. Sure it costs more, but I've found nothing else does what the V.V. powders will do so easily.

Striker Fired
February 22, 2012, 10:23 AM
In Quickload predictions,VihtaVouri powders tend to burn 100% in shorter time than many/most others.Thats been my observation and probably why they push to higher velocities sometimes . It surprizing then that they also shoot so nice and soft also.

Walkalong
February 22, 2012, 12:25 PM
I also use 3N37 for hot .38 Super. Good stuff. It uses the smaller kernel size like N310, so it meters great, which is a good thing when using top end loads.

Striker Fired
February 22, 2012, 01:26 PM
I'm loading my .40Super with 3N47,n350,or 3N38.They do have a fireball though,but reduced felt recoil quite a bit.

1SOW
February 22, 2012, 08:27 PM
Walkalong: N340 gave surprisingly good velocities in my 3" EMP using 124/5 Gr jacketed bullets. It beat other powders that gave more velocity in the 5" & 16" barrels. By a "sit up and take notice" margin.
I've been paying the price for VIT "single base" powder (n320) for some time. It IS GREAT powder.

I'm trying to "NARROW IT DOWN" to one or two powders to order/buy to develop this load.
n340, HS-6, Longshot and Green Dot have all been recommended from shooters with past experience with these powders for this SD-type of load.

GooseGestapo: The A#5 scared me off when I moved up from 5.8 to 6.2grains with little speed gain. 6.4grs is running at 35000+ pressures in my load data reference. You may be right, but I'd prefer a little tamer load.
re bullet weight: I have A LOT of "target" Zero 125JHP with a traditional ogive that I'm using to experiment with. My Sig chamber will accept this (and other JHPs with some OAL variation) When I narrow down a load for this bullet, I can make it work in with a 124gr JHP SD bullet using seating depth info gained. OR at least, that's the PLAN.:D

Walkalong
February 22, 2012, 10:11 PM
Master Match 125 Gr JSP @ 1.122 OAL-WSP primer- March 2010

5.7 Grs N 340

6 Shots -EMP - TZ- AR

HI -1150 -1223- 1345
LO -1130 - 1192- 1303
AVG -1135 - 1205- 1330
ES -20 - 31- 42
SD- 8 - 10- 15


6.4 Grs AA #5

6 Shots -EMP - TZ- AR

HI -1092- 1149- 1328
LO -1035 - 1100- 1265
AVG- 1059- 1122 -1296
ES -57 - 49- 63
SD -22 - 16 -20

6.8 Grs HS-6

6 Shots -EMP - TZ- AR

HI- 1123 - 1195- 1345
LO- 1058 -1158- 1321
AVG -1087 - 1172- 1336
ES -65- 37- 24
SD -21- 13- 8

Walkalong
February 22, 2012, 10:17 PM
N340 is also excellent for pushing a 230 Gr bullet to 850 FPS in .45 ACP.

1SOW
February 22, 2012, 11:53 PM
Well, I'll be durned! Nice ES too.
http://www.lapua.com/upload/downloads/brochures/2011/vihtavuorireloadingguideed9updtjuly2011eng.pdf

Yipes, That load is over MAX everywhere except the Hornady 124 FMJ FP at "1.142"--at MAX 5.7. The n350 "looks" more in line with your results. Looks CAN be decieving though. The LEE data is similar at 1.142, max load 5.8 for a 124 FMJ.

I will try n340. I don't quite need the max speeds and have a "little" more bbl--3.6". I will start low using 1.11 or even 1.12" if it fits on the push test.
I can play with the n340 in my CZ if it doesn't work out for SD.

Thank you very much Walkalong.

ArchAngelCD
February 23, 2012, 12:00 AM
With all this talk about VV powders it makes me sad they aren't available anywhere around here.

1SOW
February 23, 2012, 01:51 AM
ArchAngelCD,
Vit is "available" here, but the price makes ordering it a bargain. Over $40/pound (n320) locally. $24/# at P.V.

As always, order in bulk if possible; but in this case it really makes little difference by the time you add gas money and tax.

n320 is the #1 powder for minor PF 9X19. Clean with light loads, soft recoil, not temp or position sensitive, meters excellently in anything, can't double charge, "cool" burning, no muzzle flash, single base powder. The actual cost/rd is actually slightly less than 1 cent more than 231. What 231 will make at 4.3grs, n320 makes at 4.1grs. Close to the same "quantity" of powder needed from Titegroup for the same speed.

I don't own stock in the company, but it is an amazing powder. Sure wish it was made in America.
JMO

Walkalong
February 23, 2012, 07:18 AM
Yes, That load is over MAX everywhere except for the Vihtavuori PDF with a Hornady 124 FMJ/FP

Considering the numbers in 5" and 6" barrels, along with recoil, ejection pattern, etc, etc, I consider it safe with a reasonable OAL for the bullet used.

But, I should have given the usual line

Start low, work up, use at your own risk.

I bought a 4 pounder of N310, N320 and N340 after trying a pound of each. A 4 pounder of WST is next.

I'll be interested in your result with N340.

1SOW
February 23, 2012, 09:42 PM
I'll be interested in your result with N340.

Will do. Need to order it soon.

I was pleasantly surprised to find my Sig (UNLIKE my CZ) will accept my test hollowpoint out to 1.16"+, so I can "actually use" the load data---for the first time.:D:cool:

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