Guttersnipe Sights for Modern Combat Pistol?


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LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
February 21, 2012, 10:26 PM
Has anyone made a Guttersnipe sight for modern day combat pistols like those seen on the ASP? I'm just curious about it, wanting to know if it's feasible for use on a Glock, HK, Sig, or any other recent manufacture combat pistol.

Thanks in advance for the replies.

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rcmodel
February 21, 2012, 10:35 PM
Yes.

Kimber has, or at least had something like that in a compact 1911 not too long ago called the Ultra RPC.
http://www.gunsamerica.com/921624167/Guns/Pistols/Kimber-of-America-Pistols/Kimber_Ultra_RCP_II_45_ACP_NIB_286.htm


Accuracy was about twice the spread of a similar sighted gun in the tests I saw on them.

I think they were discontinued shortly after everyone found out how bad they didn't like them after buying a gun without sights.

rc

wally
February 21, 2012, 11:11 PM
My AMT Backup 45 had them, I never warmed up to them, its heavy trigger didn't help either. Mine was reliable and filled a niche in its day, but I retired it when the Kahr P40 and S&W SC360 came out.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
February 21, 2012, 11:14 PM
I was curious about them because if I'm correct in saying, all you do is center your target where the front sight would be? Seems like a neat idea.

9mmepiphany
February 22, 2012, 01:13 AM
I'm not sure everyone here understands what the Guttersnipe was or the principle that it was designed to work on.

Both the Kimber RPC and the AMT used a sighting trough machined into the top of the slide....the trough was straight and uniform.

The Guttersnipe was composed of a channel which tapered toward the muzzle. Inside the channel, on the three sides were yellow trapezoidal shapes, which did not reach the edges of the channel. The sighting principle was that the shooter's subconscious would balance the trapezoids (correctly aligning the pistol's bore) while the shooter was looking through the sights at their intended target. Making the sighting system work required standardizing on a certain bullet...the Guttersnipe wasn't adjustable...and for the shooter to have the ability to see the sights without looking at them.

I really liked the example I got to shoot, I could never afford an ASP, but had to constantly remind myself to not try to consciously align the sights

all you do is center your target where the front sight would be?
This would usually leave your elevation a bit off

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
February 22, 2012, 02:19 AM
I'm trying to think how it'd work, 9mm. I know it was something about perception.

9mmepiphany
February 22, 2012, 02:27 AM
Much like the eye's tendency to center a front post in a rear ghostring/peep or balance the light, on either side of the front sight, in the rear notch of open sights, the eye wants to balance the three trapezoidal shapes.

This corrects, if you are doing it correctly, for both windage and elevation...also remember that this sight was optimized when used with your non-dominate eye to access the non-rational/logical side of your brain

Certaindeaf
February 22, 2012, 02:52 AM
I've shot those. Kinda like a zen thing. I've got an XS sighted rig now.. not for bullseye but dang, it's weirdly fast.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
February 22, 2012, 02:55 AM
Hm. Maybe not the greatest idea for a combat pistol in my opinion. I like the idea of front/rear combo, being what I'm accustomed to. If you have to rely on your non-dominant eye to use the sights correctly, I don't really see any true benefits to the concept then.

Trebor
February 22, 2012, 03:34 AM
A friend of mine is part of the family that actually did the gunsmithing work on the Model 39 pistols for ASP. I've fired the pistol he inherited. To be honest, I really don't see any advantage to the Guttersnipe system. It's just different enough to throw you off if you shoot normal pistols.

Now, if the ONLY thing you shot was a pistol with a Guttersnipe setup, I can see how you might be faster with it than what is considered "normal" with conventional sights, at close range at least.

9mmepiphany
February 22, 2012, 04:21 AM
If you have to rely on your non-dominant eye to use the sights correctly, I don't really see any true benefits to the concept then.
It was part of the QUELL shooting system, which was like a hard braced Chapman...it also have complimentary targets with kill zones

9mmepiphany
February 22, 2012, 04:21 AM
If you have to rely on your non-dominant eye to use the sights correctly, I don't really see any true benefits to the concept then.
It was part of the QUELL shooting system, which was like a hard braced Chapman...it also have complimentary targets with kill zones

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
February 22, 2012, 04:31 AM
QUELL and Chapman?

9mmepiphany
February 22, 2012, 05:27 AM
They are shooting stances.

The QUELL was developed by Paris Theodore who conceptualized the ASP pistol.

The Chapman is what a lot, maybe most, folks use when they think they are shooting from a Weaver...it is more bladed than the Weaver or Isosceles. It was developed by Ray Chapman

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
February 22, 2012, 08:49 AM
Can you provide me with a link to a good site that will explain these stances better? An maybe with pictures as well?

Being new to pistols, I'm a total sponge and I would love to be able to learn more techniques, stances, what-have-you. I've already got my grip down, I believe you were one of those who coached me onto that, 9mm.

Thank you in advance.

AK103K
February 22, 2012, 09:33 AM
The Quell system is pretty much as 9mmepiphany described it.

Your right cheek is placed on your right bicep, and you roll your head to the right until your left eye lines up with the sights. You aim with the left eye, and shoot with both eyes open.

It takes a little getting used to, but once you do get used to it, it is pretty quick and accurate to shoot with. When properly mounted, it gives basically a rifle type mount to a handgun without using a stock.

The whole point was, close range precision shooting, with the focus on one shot instant stops. The main aiming point, was the little divot on the upper lip, just below the nose in a line, straight to the rear, or along that axis, anywhere around the head. There is a nerve bundle at the base of the skull that when hit, cuts off all physical responses, including the trigger finger.

The theory was, your eyes "cross" in regards to what the brain "sees", and your left eye translates to the right side of your brain, which perceives danger differently, allowing you to be more "calm" while making the shot.


Google "Paris Theodore" and "Quell System", and you should get a bunch of leads.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
February 22, 2012, 10:15 AM
Awesome description AK, thank you. I'm left-eye dominant but right-hand dominant (strikes me as odd, but it's how I was made). I have a feeling that I was made for the QUELL system. Will try this during my next range session. I'm accustomed to using my right eye for sighting, so maybe it will give me the "calming" effect described.

pockets
February 22, 2012, 02:14 PM
North American Arms offered the Gutter Snipe Sighting System conversion for their Guardian series of pocket pistols.
It is basically milled into the top/rear portion of the slide, with the front sight being milled off.
Although, their website says that this currently not available (while they change the process to one which is in-house), it should be available again by August 2012.
I have considered getting my Guardian done just for giggles. I doubt it will improve groups...since these guns are 'point and shoot' (hopefully never 'point and click' !).
If you want to see what they look like, the NAA website does show a Guardian with the conversion done to it. The '3 dots' apparently glow in the dark too.

http://www.northamericanarms.com/accessories/g-accessories/guardian-cc/custom-guardian-sights.html

2wheels
February 22, 2012, 02:26 PM
Closest thing I've ever seen/handled is the trench/trough sights on my New Agent, and as 9mmepiphany pointed out, that isn't the same thing as the original "guttersnipe" sights.

Works ok, but definitely not for bullseye shooting.

9mmepiphany
February 22, 2012, 04:01 PM
If you want to see what they look like, the NAA website does show a Guardian with the conversion done to it. The '3 dots' apparently glow in the dark too.

Well, I see they separated the words to give a impression of what they offer without being true to the original...it might actually work better for most folks.

If you are interested in this style of sighting systems, you should look at the Caracal pistol's QAS (Quick Acquisition Sight) which I found very easy to hit with during Media Day at this year's SHOT show. Here is a quick review:
http://www.shootingreviews.com/caracal/

...and here is what the aligned Guttersnipe is supposed to look like
http://www.hmss.com/qbranch/Guttersnipe.jpg

...and mounted on the gun
http://www.yankeegunnuts.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/asp.jpg

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
February 22, 2012, 09:34 PM
Thank you for the clarifications guys, it's why this forum is my favorite place to be a member of.

darkpath
March 7, 2013, 11:37 PM
There was a variant of the ASP Guttersnipe that had three tritium lamps for low light use; but I've been unable to locate any useful information as to where the lamps were placed (without a front sight, where does one place the tritium lamps?), their shape, their orientation, etc. I had heard that Wayne Novak had some ASPs with this variant Guttersnipe in his collection at one time, so I wrote an email asking about this but haven't heard a peep in response. Sadly, the original tritium lamp Guttersnipes are likely depleted by now, which was part of the reason I wrote to Wayne, asking if he would be open to manufacturing new ones.

I'm presuming that with Paris Theodore's passing in 2006 that at some point his patents for the Guttersnipe will, if they haven't already, enter the public domain.

Certaindeaf
March 8, 2013, 01:49 AM
Here's a funny little bird..

http://www.chaffeearms.com/reducedpix/guns/guttersnipesgts058.jpg

Bobo
March 8, 2013, 10:14 PM
This is not what what I would consider a combat pistol, but Guttersnipes may be available on them soon.
http://northamericanarms.com/accessories/g-accessories/guardian-cc/custom-guardian-sights.html

9mmepiphany
March 8, 2013, 11:53 PM
That is interesting as it take the name, but installs a sighting system that works (well, might work) on the polar opposite theory from the original.

The original had tapered contrasting panels, on the three sides of the gutter, that were subconsciously balanced. This permutation looks like a short fixed sight groove from a revolver to which they have added distracting rear dot night sight dots

MarshallDodge
March 9, 2013, 12:08 AM
Has anyone made a Guttersnipe sight for modern day combat pistols like those seen on the ASP? I'm just curious about it, wanting to know if it's feasible for use on a Glock, HK, Sig, or any other recent manufacture combat pistol.
Feasibility means a lot of things. In a combat situation you want speed and speed comes with practice. You cannot buy speed.

Take a traditional set of sets, train your eye(s) to use the rear sight as a peephole and focus on the front sight. The majority of the professional level trainers recommend this because it is feasible.

If you enjoyed reading about "Guttersnipe Sights for Modern Combat Pistol?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!