On 2-21-12 I shot a brand new G17L and a 50 year old P210 side by side at targets placed 15 yards out from my bench. Each time, the guns were fired off a LTEK bench rest. I had 115gr FCAE, 147gr Winclean, 147gr PDX-1, reverse engineered 147gr Team Glock ammo, and an assortment of handloads.
The top group was fired with the Glock using 115gr FCAE ammo. Target 1 was FCAE with the P210. Target 2 was Glock with Winclean 147 TC. Target 3 was P210 with Winclean. Target 4 was actually two groups with Winchester 147gr PDX-1: the left group was fired using the P210 and the right using the Glock.
The Glock only ran factory ammo. All my handloads choked with the exception of the Team Glock load (4grs of WSF 1.100" OAL CCI primers) in RP brass. It choked on the Team Glock load in Win or FC brass.
Further, the TG load was inaccurate in both guns. All my research pointed to WSF as being the powder, but I guess it is not. The Sig ate everything without issues, and was twice as accurate, except for the PDX-1 ammo. Both the Glock and the Sig liked it.
It looks like 147 Winclean is it as far as factory ammo goes: I'm gonna try to locate some regular 147 WWB.
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February 22, 2012, 01:48 PM
I've never had much success with 147 gr. ammo in most 9mms, have done a good bit better with 124 gr, and better still with 115 gr. I shoot only factory ammo, as I don't think I have the patience (or attention to detail) to properly and safely handload, even with a good Dillon setup. Back when I was shooting my P-210-6, I got great results with 115 gr. Blazer aluminum cased and Sellier & Bellot 115 gr. ammo. Go figure.
It would have been interesting to see more of how the guns would have done with the SAME loads -- as you did with target 4. (I know that your hand loads wouldn't work in the Glock, so that explains WHY there were only limited comparisons.)
The differences were NOT all that noticeable on target 4 (unless a couple of the leftmost shots were 17L fliers...) Finding the right load for the 17L will interesting.
How was the Glock choking?
February 22, 2012, 02:08 PM
For a minute I thought this was gonna be a "What is better?" thread. :D
February 22, 2012, 03:27 PM
How was the Glock choking?
FTF, stovepipes, and double feeds. The ammo was clearly underpowered for the Glock. For example, 4 grains of WAP wouldn't even move the slide enough for the case to clear the ejection port. Sometimes the case went back into battery. I had a pump action Glock right there.
I'll try some max loads with Power Pistol next.
February 22, 2012, 03:37 PM
"The Sig... was twice as accurate"
That's scary since it was only 15 yards. I wonder what the difference would have been at 50 yards (or meters, since that was the factory standard for the P210. Call it 54 yards.)
February 22, 2012, 03:51 PM
My 17L had two very distinct preferences.
1. Anything Winchester 147 grain. Win USA 147 JHP was an economical match ammo in mine. Also Winclean 147 and SXT 147.
2. SBR Green Match 100 grain Sinterfire frangible bullet. From a bench I shot a 1-1/2", 5 shot group at 25 yards with my 17L and Heinie sights.
I'll pretend you don't have a P210.
I tried the Sinterfire bullets in handloads, but never got close to the accuracy of the SBR version. The .356" 125 grain Hornady HAP proved to be 'the bullet' for handloading the 17L.
February 22, 2012, 10:33 PM
I'll pretend you don't have a P210.
February 22, 2012, 10:47 PM
I like Remington Golden Sabre 147gr+P in a Glock 34. It seems to work well in it for me.
February 22, 2012, 11:01 PM
So I don't have to be envious. The P210 is one of the guns on my bucket list. The bucket is empty.
February 22, 2012, 11:12 PM
I own a Glock 34 now and have owned two Sig P210 pistols.
The Sigs were both far more accurate than any Glock I have owned or fired.
Actually, those two P 210s were the most accurate semi auto pistols I have ever owned with the only gun coming close to the accuracy potential being my USP Elite in .45 acp
February 22, 2012, 11:17 PM
I was expecting to see more 1" groups from the P-210. It just shows that loads make a bigger difference than most people realize. (These were shot at 15 yards, not the 25 yards you cited in the earlier message chain.)
While I really enjoyed shooting my P-210-6, I also recognized some downsides to the gun:
1) 8 round mags
2) 8 round mags that cost an arm and leg -- and no after-market mags available.
3) sharp edges on the sights that left me bleeding during a couple of IDPA matches. (I later broke the sharp edges with a flat file.)
4) A safety lever that wasn't as easy to use as I would have liked.
5) A mag release mechanism that was really much slower to activate than I wanted.
Wonderfully accurate and durable/reliable. Good size. Just not practical for the type of shooting I was doing at the time. If you want to punch paper, it's a great gun.
I remember folks telling me that the P-210s shot flatter than other guns. I should've called BS on that claim, as gravity works the same on bullets fired out of any gun...
A friend had one with the matching .22 conversion kit. He got rid of it because both the 9mm and .22 versions gave him horrible hammer bite. I never had that problem.
Had I had one with the .22 top end I might still have mine. But, during a bad financial period (when both a son and a wife were spending a lot of time in hospitals) I had to buy a truck, and the P-210-6, a S&W 52-2, and a collectible Luger from WWII paid for most of a very good used pickup that I later drove for a number of years -- and kept me form having to go into savings or get a loan... That's one advantage of collecting guns -- they are very liquid assets when you need to get cash.
February 23, 2012, 10:17 AM
"8 round mags that cost an arm and leg -- and no after-market mags available."
Take a new P210 Legend magazine and add a P225 base plate. The back of the plate needs a couple of file strokes to make it flush with the body. My total cost from Top Gun Supply was $46 iirc. He has relatively inexpensive Legend mags and the 225 base plates.
I have 3 original P210 mags, but had to try the home brewed version.
February 23, 2012, 11:49 AM
I wish they had the P210 Legend mag back when I was hunting for a cheaper alternative.
I found some aftermarket mags that would SORT of work, but you couldn't count on them. Great for playing around at the range, though. When I ordered followers and springs, once, it took 4 months to get the parts from SIG. They didn't have any mags at the time.
A few years back, SIG introduced a 210-10(?) before they came out with the newer Legend, and it had the US-style mag release. I was tempted to spring for one of those. I wasn't retired at the time (as I am now), and could justify the expenditure I finally decided against it.
February 23, 2012, 05:16 PM
My 210-6 gave my terrible hammer bite, but I found a screw on extended beavertail that completely eliminates hammerbite. It is very accurate, but mags were a problem. I got a few from a German shop on line. Great gun, but not as practical as my SIG 226.
February 23, 2012, 10:10 PM
Did some more shooting this morning. I figured out what the problem was. When shooting off the bench, I have a tendency to relax my wrist and instead concentrate on the trigger. I was limpwristing the gun. I shot the loads freehand and they were reliable, and extremely soft.
I also brought some WWB 147 JHP, FC Classic 147, and some more powerful handloads using Power Pistol and HS-6. Five grains did the trick. The most accurate load was 147gr Zero JHP, 4.5 grs of Power Pistol at 1.1" OAL. It consistently shot about 1" at 15 yards. WWB gave me a couple teaser groups but it wasn't consistent. Here is one of the targets: