Hardball for SD?


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KJS
February 22, 2012, 02:49 PM
The following struck me as most unusual. One could simply dismiss it as crazy, except it's from a highly-respected company where you can't even get their least expensive gun unless you have $2,500 of spare change. Emphasis added by me:

http://www.edbrown.com/FAQ.htm#aaa

What type of ammunition do you recommend for your handguns?

We recommend high quality Federal or Winchester ammunition, and nothing else. In our years of testing and experience, ammunition by these makers has proven to be of consistent high quality. The core of our function testing is done with Federal 230 grain FMJ, which is great self-defense ammunition. For accuracy, the Federal 185 grain Gold Metal Match ammo tends to produce the best groups.

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Certaindeaf
February 22, 2012, 02:53 PM
Since it's for test functioning, they probably figure it'll more than likely function with it.

KJS
February 22, 2012, 02:59 PM
Since it's for test functioning, they probably figure it'll more than likely function with it.

I'm not doubting hardball ammo will function. It functioned even in 1911s made in 1911.

It just seems SD ammo has come a long way in recent decades, but seems Ed Brown feels the cheapest .45s you can pick up at Walmart make fine defensive ammo.

Certaindeaf
February 22, 2012, 03:12 PM
I understand. This has been brought up before. Perhaps it's because it's the most likely thing to work in what he sells. Never know. Pehaps it's all semantics but in the final analysis, one must take ownership for their own decisions in life.
He is doing what is in his best interest, as does anybody.

KJS
February 22, 2012, 03:19 PM
^Well, yes, I know Ed Brown (like any company) will say some stupid things due to advice of legal counsel. Ed officially advises to not carry with a round in the chamber -- on a gun specifically designed for cocked & locked carry.

CombatArmsUSAF
February 22, 2012, 03:20 PM
I'll throw my 2 pennies in:

Anything under a .45-I carry a hollow point

.45 - I'll carry either 230 grain hardball or a hollow point. It depends on the season, if I have to worry about heavy winter clothing clogging up a hollow point then I carry hardball.

KJS
February 22, 2012, 03:25 PM
^I too was thinking that perhaps expansion didn't so much matter. A .45 already makes quite a big hole to start with. And it would seem .45 FMJ is far less likely to over-penetrate than is a .357 Mag FMJ could.

I can see some logic there. And I can also see how if you want to be as sure as possible a semi-auto will work in an emergency then feeding it hardball is your best bet. If hard ball doesn't feed through a semi-auto, what would?

Certaindeaf
February 22, 2012, 03:28 PM
Elmer Keith wouldn't shoot a jackrabbit with hardball.

JTQ
February 22, 2012, 04:09 PM
Elmer Keith wouldn't shoot a jackrabbit with hardball.
Possibly.

Of course, he probably wouldn't have shot them with hollow points either for what it's worth.

I personally believe hollow points are more effective, but FMJ still works.

I look at it this way. Find 10 people at random. How many have a gun on them? Of those in that group that may in fact have a gun on them, how many of those gun toters have a 5 shot .38 Special or a pocket .380? You've chosen a pistol in .45 ACP and decided on ammunition with the "poor performing" FMJ bullet. Are you better off or worse off than most of the people in the group? My guess is you are better off. If it works in your pistol, pick what you like.

Ankeny
February 22, 2012, 04:24 PM
Elmer Keith wouldn't shoot a jackrabbit with hardball. Elmer Keith wouldn't shoot a jackrabbit with a puny old .45. Maybe a .44 Magnum.:D

Certaindeaf
February 22, 2012, 04:27 PM
.he probably wouldn't have shot them with hollow points either for what it's worth..
Incorrect.
He specifically developed SWC hollow point molds for at least four calibers and encouraged their use.

Old Shooter
February 22, 2012, 04:39 PM
Quote:
Elmer Keith wouldn't shoot a jackrabbit with hardball.

Possibly.

Of course, he probably wouldn't have shot them with hollow points either for what it's worth.

Elmer Keith wouldn't shoot a jackrabbit with a puny old .45. Maybe a .44 Magnum.

Incorrect.
He specifically developed SWC hollow point molds for at least four calibers and encouraged their use.

C'mon ...It sounds like you guys are just splitting hares now. :)

Certaindeaf
February 22, 2012, 04:45 PM
^ doh! lol.

Fiv3r
February 22, 2012, 06:27 PM
I'm fine with 230gr hardball out of a .45. That's a pretty good thump of metal. Like CombatArms said, anything under .45, I keep it loaded with jhp. .45apc gets jhp in the spring/summer and fmj in the fall/winter or if I'm out walking in the woods.

Still, pretty much any quality autoloader should feed jhp just fine. The only exception in my stable is a 9mm Norinco Tokarev that won't feed anything but ball. However, it's a novelty piece and was only designed to shoot fmj anyway.

Paris
February 22, 2012, 06:34 PM
I carry 100 grain HCFN in my Sig P238.

willypete
February 22, 2012, 06:51 PM
Do what you want.

Some people like to limit themselves out of some weird sense of romanticism or ignorance.

T Bran
February 22, 2012, 07:08 PM
My .25 auto is full of round ball at all times as is my .32 . I dont think giving up any
penetration to expansion is to my advantage in these little pocket pistols.
Your theories may differ.

Gun Geezer
February 22, 2012, 07:10 PM
One hole in and one hole out. That's 2 holes thru the lung, liver, heart, head, or whatever else your target may be. If you hit your target the bad guy is going down fast.

Flame away

NG VI
February 22, 2012, 08:10 PM
Well there are people who think that a solid bullet in a service pistol caliber is capable of leaving a wound channel as wide as the bullet, but that's just not true. Tissue is elastic, and it stretches quite a lot before allowing a bullet to pass through, and once the bullet has moved on, the tissue snaps back into place.

FMJ wound channels are best described as ice pick-like wounds. They are much smaller than the bullet itself and they don't bleed all that much.

There are also people who carry FMJ in winter months because they believe they need extra penetration to deal with clothing, which doesn't take into account that clothing doesn't slow bullets down, and doesn't negatively affect penetration in any pistol bullet.

Japle
February 22, 2012, 08:26 PM
OK, two questions:

1. Why would you carry the least effective ammo available for your gun?
2. Why would you carry the most penetrative ammo available, that’s most likely to wound or kill someone on the other side of your attacker?

jon_in_wv
February 22, 2012, 09:13 PM
if I have to worry about heavy winter clothing clogging up a hollow point then I carry hardball.

This makes no sense. You carry FMJ because if the JHPs plug they will act like....FMJs???? I've heard this argument before but I've never heard a decent explanation of why this makes one bit of sense.

bigfatdave
February 22, 2012, 09:20 PM
Well there are people who think that a solid bullet in a service pistol caliber is capable of leaving a wound channel as wide as the bullet, but that's just not true. Tissue is elastic, and it stretches quite a lot before allowing a bullet to pass through, and once the bullet has moved on, the tissue snaps back into place.

FMJ wound channels are best described as ice pick-like wounds. They are much smaller than the bullet itself and they don't bleed all that much.
This.

Also, what is this, a monthly thread? Quarterly?
Too often for a question that doesn't stand up to critical thought for more than a moment.

if I have to worry about heavy winter clothing clogging up a hollow point then I carry hardball. this nonsense is wrong two ways
1-A clogged HP acts like a semiwadcutter or FMJ round
2-Your possible self-defense will not necessarily be against someone in heavy winter clothing (what, you never go indoors for three months of cold?)

...
Actually, three ways, because defensive ammo is loaded hotter and is more reliable than most FMJ, which is cheap plinking fodder, not defensive ammo with better QA standards

HDCamel
February 22, 2012, 09:30 PM
OK, two questions:

1. Why would you carry the least effective ammo available for your gun?
2. Why would you carry the most penetrative ammo available, that’s most likely to wound or kill someone on the other side of your attacker?
1: That's just, like, your opinion man. Besides, shot placement > all, regardless of ammo type.
2: Given that you are more likely to miss in a firefight anyway, the likelihood that you'll hit an innocent bystander directly is greater than the chance that you'll hit them collaterally through your intended target.

CombatArmsUSAF
February 22, 2012, 09:44 PM
Actually, three ways, because defensive ammo is loaded hotter and is more reliable than most FMJ, which is cheap plinking fodder, not defensive ammo with better QA standards

You've obviously never shot actual 230 grain Federal "match" loads which are probably among the hottest loaded 45 rounds available. They also go through a tighter QA process than most SD rounds. This is not the stuff you buy at walmart!

For those of you that say a plugged HP acts the same as an FMJ, that's true if it plugs evenly. But if it doesn't, that HP can act all kinds of funny.

M2 Carbine
February 22, 2012, 09:47 PM
It make no sense carrying FMJ when you can carry a round that's designed to do far more damage.

.223 and 45ACP.
http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x464/Bell-helicopter-407/PLRRemJSPand45GD.jpg

D Boone
February 22, 2012, 10:17 PM
There was a court case in Washington state I believe where a guy was convicted of murder rather than self defense largely due to the fact that experts testified that his 10mm was "bigger" than what the police carried, and his hollow points were designed to "kill". a recent technology podcast I listened to was commentating on a guy shooting his daughters laptop because of a Facebook post and the guy did it with "hollow points" and what was he doing with those??? has me kind of weirded out. So I only carry fmj. Personal choice I guess.

Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk

bigfatdave
February 22, 2012, 10:26 PM
You've obviously never shot actual 230 grain Federal "match" loads which are probably among the hottest loaded 45 rounds available. They also go through a tighter QA process than most SD rounds. This is not the stuff you buy at walmart!

For those of you that say a plugged HP acts the same as an FMJ, that's true if it plugs evenly. But if it doesn't, that HP can act all kinds of funny. obviously nothing about FMJ design requires lax QA.
A bullet "acting funny" while penetrating is doing just fine as far as I care.

There was a court case in Washington state I believe where a guy was convicted of murder rather than self defense largely due to the fact that experts testified that his 10mm was "bigger" than what the police carried, and his hollow points were designed to "kill". a recent technology podcast I listened to was commentating on a guy shooting his daughters laptop because of a Facebook post and the guy did it with "hollow points" and what was he doing with those??? has me kind of weirded out. So I only carry fmj. Personal choice I guess.don't carry to satisfy an imaginary prosecution, the same specious argument could be turned around easily with a question of:
"the accused used FMJ in an attempt to wound rather than stop the victim, obviously he was looking for a fight and a chance to punish this poor disadvantaged youth!"

Nerfing your defensive tools is just plain stupid. Stop it.

rondog
February 22, 2012, 10:35 PM
Sure have been a lot of soldiers that used .45 acp FMJ hardball for self-defense in years past. Seemed to work well for them.

But FWIW, mine's loaded with handloads with 230gr. Speer Gold Dot bullets in them. Loaded to the high side of the charts.

bigfatdave
February 22, 2012, 10:59 PM
Seemed to work well for them.sure, and they were out there with squad/platoon mates, a clearly defined enemy, and were using a sidearm as a secondary weapon
exactly the same thing, right?

peacebutready
February 23, 2012, 12:08 AM
My .25 auto is full of round ball at all times as is my .32 . I dont think giving up any
penetration to expansion is to my advantage in these little pocket pistols.
Your theories may differ.

1. Placement
2. Adequate penetration


Off Topic: I wonder if 2 COM shots from a .25 equals 1 from a .32. If not, how about 3 .25 shots?

willypete
February 23, 2012, 12:33 AM
Nerfing your defensive tools is just plain stupid. Stop it.

*golfclap* Thank you, sir.

jon_in_wv
February 23, 2012, 10:34 AM
Introducing "misses" as a reason for carrying FMJs is a red herring unless you are saying FMJs are less damaging so using them is preferable if you miss and hit an innocent.

If a JHP expands unevenly after hitting heavy clothing it is still more damaging than a smooth FMJ in my opinion. There are just no good arguments for FMJ in any serious caliber. The FBI report is touted for most people recommending JHPs when the FBI report never recommended them. They recommended powerful expanding JHPs that penetrate. There are more than enough of them around to make FMJs suitable for practice, not defense.

xXxplosive
February 23, 2012, 10:45 AM
I'm one of those guys that believe in Placement first and Penetration second.....I always liked 230gr. Hardball. Functions well, Accuracy is fine and Penetration is what I want.....what else is there ?

NG VI
February 23, 2012, 11:55 AM
xXxplosive...

New Jersey.

I agree that penetration is critical, which is why you'll never hear me do anything but discourage people from carrying the super light, fragile bullets that companies like Cor Bon use, or the prefragmented bullets like the Glasers, but a properly designed middle-heavyweight service caliber JHP bullet is going to achieve plenty adequate penetration on a human.

The pocket pistol calibers like .25 and .32, and .380 (to me) are almost certainly better suited for FMJ. The difference is that a JHP bullet from a .32 or .380 will typically only penetrate about eight inches. 9mm, .40, and .45 JHP all penetrates anywhere from 10" from the fragile old-school bullets to 16" or more from a bullet like the XTP. The bullets I recommend, which is basically any brand's current production, all get from 12-14" with excellent expansion.


Bottom line is, it's not 1982 anymore, there is no reason at all to compromise on a super-shallow penetrating JHP or the absolute bottom-level performance of any FMJ. Good JHP loads are not very expensive, not if you compare it in a realistic way to the rest of the prices on ammunition, and it isn't hard to pick a good one.

bigfatdave
February 23, 2012, 11:55 AM
My .25 auto is full of round ball at all times as is my .32 . I dont think giving up any penetration to expansion is to my advantage in these little pocket pistols.
Your theories may differ.OK, there are reasons to put hardball in a mousegun - so long as you're selecting the hotter ammunition, not cheapo plinking loads. If you have to choose between penetration and expansion, take penetration.

The pocket pistol calibers like .25 and .32, and .380 (to me) are almost certainly better suited for FMJ.I'd say that .380 and 9x18 makarov are right on the line, personally I use a Mak load that may or may not expand (and I don't really carry the CZ82 anyway) and select hot hardball or basic HP designs for the wife's .380. .32acp gets ball, in a hot euro load (PPU mostly). ,22wmr or .22lr should go with a heavy solid or one of the new superduper GoldDot/CriticalDef .22mag loads, IF the shooter is truly limited to no-recoil options (hand injury, shoulder surgery, etc)

But in a duty/service caliber? (duty/service caliber = 9x18 and up)
HP or other expanding ammo all the time for social purposes, ball ammo is for target practice in duty loads.

A similar situation:
If you have to choose between expansion and reliability (some people use hardball in older guns that won't feed HP, for example) ... get a better gun or repair your gun at the earliest oppurtunity. A defensive pistol that will not feed some kind of defensive round is simply a broken pistol, relegate it to a range toy or antique as soon as you can.

peacebutready
February 23, 2012, 05:38 PM
Something to also keep in mind how much incentive the companies have for pushing h.p.'s on us because they cost a lot.

bigfatdave
February 23, 2012, 06:37 PM
possibly true, but the pictures on brassfetcher seem to imply that there isn't just a conspiracy involved

jon_in_wv
February 23, 2012, 06:38 PM
Something to also keep in mind how much incentive the companies have for pushing h.p.'s on us because they cost a lot.

WHY??? Are you really suggesting the FBI, interdependent testers, people experience, EVERYTHING is all faked so the manufacturers can increase their profit margin on bullets????
The manufacturers incentive to sell JHPs is really not a very powerful argument unless you wear a tinfoil hat.

NG VI
February 23, 2012, 06:51 PM
Something to also keep in mind how much incentive the companies have for pushing h.p.'s on us because they cost a lot.


They really don't cost much more than an equivalent quality solid bullet load. UMC and WWB cost what, a dollar difference per fifty rounds? Top of the line JHPs like the federal HST cost anywhere from $15-$25 per 50 rounds, depending on where and when you find them, which is hardly a ridiculous price in today's world. Besides, nobody said a person should only shoot JHP on the range.

It's best to use a good variety of loads in your pistol on the range, if it functions properly no matter what you put in it, you can be pretty sure it will function well with any properly loaded ammunition.

Zombiphobia
February 23, 2012, 06:57 PM
I carry a mag full of FMJ as back-up because you never know when you're going to become over-powered by vision and judgement altering adrenaline while going up against a gang of fearless drug addicts who aren't scared away by being shot at and missed, or shot and not put down by the first hollow points fired at/into them.

And also because defensive loads are expensive and I can't afford to fill all of my mags with them. So also in my primary magazine there are 10 defensive Hollow points(gold dots) because I used the others for practice, including one fired into a prairie dog at the range and the other 5 are FMJ.

I may also have to be hardcore and shoot thru hostages (for pete's sake I hope nobody takes that seriously)

bigfatdave
February 23, 2012, 07:10 PM
I carry a mag full of FMJ as back-up Wolf?
Tula?
Winchester white box?
S&B?

peacebutready
February 23, 2012, 07:39 PM
WHY??? Are you really suggesting the FBI, interdependent testers, people experience, EVERYTHING is all faked so the manufacturers can increase their profit margin on bullets????
The manufacturers incentive to sell JHPs is really not a very powerful argument unless you wear a tinfoil hat.

I know at least some leo's want the BG to live. Don't know about the one you mentioned.

Independent testers are great IF they are independent. For all I know, they may be under a little, some, or subtle pressure. Independent physicians are under pressure to write good things about meds they test. One well esteemed doc re-wrote a report after it was learned the farma co gave him 10K. This was about 12 years ago.

"People experience" sounds the best to me.

bigfatdave
February 23, 2012, 07:46 PM
again, brassfetches HAS that data, and you're bordering on being silly

HDCamel
February 23, 2012, 08:02 PM
Introducing "misses" as a reason for carrying FMJs is a red herring unless you are saying FMJs are less damaging so using them is preferable if you miss and hit an innocent.

That's the point I was getting at, yes. Trying to negate Murphy's Law as much as possible.

peacebutready
February 23, 2012, 08:04 PM
They really don't cost much more than an equivalent quality solid bullet load. UMC and WWB cost what, a dollar difference per fifty rounds? Top of the line JHPs like the federal HST cost anywhere from $15-$25 per 50 rounds, depending on where and when you find them, which is hardly a ridiculous price in today's world. Besides, nobody said a person should only shoot JHP on the range.


I thought top of the line "bonded" is more like $15-$25 for a box of 20-25rnds. Also, there is the .45 which is all the rage these days.

After choosing your brand/type, you need to do an adequate test for reliability through your arm. My guess is 200 rounds, but opinions vary. I wonder if 100 would be good enough for a quality firearm like Beretta or Sig.

peacebutready
February 23, 2012, 08:16 PM
Wolf?
Tula?
Winchester white box?
S&B?


Isn't S&B good quality?

There's also Brown Bear and Silver Bear. I don't know how they compare to Wolf and Tula.

bigfatdave
February 23, 2012, 08:24 PM
I thought top of the line "bonded" is more like $15-$25 for a box of 20-25rnds. sure, if you're buying chump boxes at the department store they're a buck a round, that's markup

Buy in 50x boxes or in larger quantities, and you're not hurting as much in the wallet. The same works for cheap plinking ammo, too ... but not to the same degree. I generally get my 9x19 HP ammo (mostly Gold Dots in 124g +P flavor) in boxes of 50 for about $25, I've lucked into enough $30 and $35 boxes of .45acp HPs in various loadings that I was stocked up until getting a new .45 carry gun, luckily it likes Gold Dots, too - so I'll stock up on those in bulk next time I'm at a show or find a deal online (three .45acp guns for carry now, although the new one somewhat replaces/obsoletes one of the old ones ... ... but that's off topic)

Also, there is the .45 which is all the rage these days.wut?
Yes, .45acp costs more than 9x19mm ... what's your point? Are you talking about some specific load that had an offensive price? Was it EXXXTREMESHOKER or similar?

adequate test for reliability through your arm. My guess is 200 rounds, but opinions vary. I wonder if 100 would be good enough for a quality firearm like Beretta or Sig.Meh, it varies, based on how much I want the gun in the carry rotation and other factors.
Average 50 - 100 for the first run, more after that in future range trips
more or less if the round is obviously a winner or loser in that gun
I don't worry much with an XD or other duty-type pistol, I run more in tight guns or designs that require a bit more user maintenance (1911s, little bitty mouse guns)
I test any load I can find in reasonable quantities for a reasonable price, and keep track of what works and what doesn't in a given gun, also trying to figure out why it didn't work to avoid buying a similarly unsuitable load in the future.

NG VI
February 23, 2012, 08:46 PM
There are some really excellent non-bonded bullets out there like the Ranger-T and HST, Golden Sabers are pretty good too, but the bullets that are available in those $1 per round 'personal defense' boxes are either available as 50-round 'law enforcement' boxes or there is an even better bullet that the company sells as it's 'duty' bullet, the way Federal has the Hydra-Shock and Hi-Shock as it's more easily found commercial bullet but the HST as it's duty load.

You get either the same bullet, like the Gold Dot, for much less money per round or you get a better bullet for less money per round.

It's frustrating, and something a lot of people have a real issue with. It's why I never advise people to buy Critical Defense, it's an ok load, but it is designed to penetrate less than the FBI-recommended 12" average, while they are releasing a similar bullet called the Critical Duty which uses heavier bullets that should penetrate more consistently. And many shops don't carry the 50-round boxes, or will possibly jack up the price on all defensive ammunition because there is a popular conception that those bullets cost much more than range ammo.

Personally I don't find $0.50 per round to be all that unreasonable for top-quality defense ammunition. I also don't suggest people buy brands like Cor-Bon, they charge way too much in my opinion, and often offer inferior bullet designs while they're at it. The DPX is the only one that's really great, and that can be bought as a component and handloaded or bought from any number of other loaders for less.

Basically, you have options, lots of them, you just have to put a little time into cruising the web to find them, get a good idea of different company's pricing, and then call your local shops to see if they can match it. If you aren't buying a single box at a time, the net is generally the best place to get defense ammunition.

Zombiphobia
February 23, 2012, 08:53 PM
BigFatDave, I'd have to go check which I don't wanna do, but it's either WWB or PMC Bronze, which is slightly more accurate in this gun so it's probably the PMC Bronze.

mljdeckard
February 23, 2012, 09:03 PM
The real-world difference between fmj and jhp isn't nearly as big as a lot of guys think it is. Some gun guys think that a hit from a .45 HST will explode and knock a man over, but a 9mm FMJ will zing through harmlessly through a lung.

I carry 230 gr HSTs, but if for some reason I was stuck with FMJ ammo and had to shoot defensively, not only would I not panic, I wouldn't change a single thing. 1911s shooting 230 gr ball have probably saved more soldiers' lives than any other combination.

ALL handgun bullets suck. Some suck less than others. The real reason you should carry premium JHP ammo for a defensive gun is, when you are fighting for your life, you need every advantage you can get, even if it's a SMALL advantage.

The Lone Haranguer
February 23, 2012, 09:25 PM
I think this is a bit of CYA on Brown's part. Never having been designed for hollowpoint ammo - because it did not exist - 1911s have the best chance of 100% functioning with the original loading, a 230-gr. round-nose FMJ. While I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of it, this is not necessarily the most effective self defense ammunition. Look at it this way. Even if the hollowpoint fails to expand, it is still as effective as hardball. If it does expand, it makes an even bigger hole. Why not take all the advantages you can get? Any 1911 made in the last ~25 years should be able to handle any reasonable hollowpoint, preferably one shaped as close as possible to hardball.

jon_in_wv
February 23, 2012, 09:38 PM
I know at least some leo's want the BG to live. Don't know about the one you mentioned.

So you know some LEOs who carry FMJs because the bad guy will be more likely to live if he shoots him? AND you haven't heard of the FBI Wound Ballistics Workshop. You seem to have VERY little knowledge on the subject so you are interjecting conspiracy theories and nonsense to try to sound like you make sense. If your knowledge is limited if would be wiser to sit back and learn rather than try to bluff those that are more knowledgeable than yourself. It doesn't work.

peacebutready
February 24, 2012, 12:58 AM
So you know some LEOs who carry FMJs because the bad guy will be more likely to live if he shoots him? AND you haven't heard of the FBI Wound Ballistics Workshop. You seem to have VERY little knowledge on the subject so you are interjecting conspiracy theories and nonsense to try to sound like you make sense. If your knowledge is limited if would be wiser to sit back and learn rather than try to bluff those that are more knowledgeable than yourself. It doesn't work.

I probably should have been more specific with the leo acronym. The o stands for organization.

I meant the opposite. They carry h.p.'s so the BG will live. The correlation between stopping power and lethality isn't 100%.

I have heard of that ballistics workshop, although I'm not highly familiar with it.

My knowledge is beyond little and "conspiracy theories" is too strong of a term to be used here. I never have tried to bluff anyone on these forums. That is below me. If I am wrong, it was an honest mistake.

With the above said, please either acknowledge the misunderstanding or continue dialogue. What's right is right.

Regards

JShirley
February 24, 2012, 04:21 AM
Suggesting carrying FMJ for defense, unless limited by law, is just plain stupid.

Standard .45 230-grain hardball penetrates 26" in tissue. Advising carrying FMJ when expanding rounds are available shows unconcern for innocent bystanders and little regards for those protecting themselves. Which is more effective: a .45 hole, or a .65 one?

John

481
February 24, 2012, 12:15 PM
Which is more effective: a .45 hole, or a .65 one?

John

It depends on what each "hole" passes through.

The assumption of "equivalent shot placement" (that someone will eventually and doubtless offer :rolleyes:) is nothing more than a strawman argument since the human anatomy is so infinitely and subtly variable. ;)

jon_in_wv
February 24, 2012, 12:27 PM
I meant the opposite. They carry h.p.'s so the BG will live.

Do tell. Which Law Enforcement Organization(s) are you referring to? What information do you have that JHPs are "less lethal" than FMJs?

HarcyPervin
February 24, 2012, 01:00 PM
This is deteriorating quickly...

JohnBiltz
February 24, 2012, 01:40 PM
They are less lethal because in general you have to shoot them less times to generate a stop. I'll never understand carrying less effective ammo than you could. Once you have tested a box of ammo you load the gun and maybe a spare magazine and you are good to go for at least a year. $25 once a year just does not seem that expensive for me. I believe that when it really matters use the best you can. Guaranteed you have a lot more money tied up in holsters.

The military uses ball because they have to by law. In almost every state it is illegal to hunt with ball ammo because ball ammo performs so poorly when hunting.

Pietro Beretta
February 24, 2012, 02:21 PM
I don't use ball in my .380, it penetrates too much. Living in an indoor apartment building, with people above and below and on 3 sides of me, I want to minimize my risk of pass through if I can.

I also don't use ball in 45 or 9x19 for the same reasons.


I just found a couple of youtube videos firing .380 FMJ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ6Jslg4e_0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkscBbMGp5k

Certaindeaf
February 24, 2012, 03:00 PM
The real-world difference between fmj and jhp isn't nearly as big as a lot of guys think it is..
Go shoot a deer/hog or some other critter with some hardball. The difference is huge.

JShirley
February 24, 2012, 03:13 PM
Yup. Even with rifle rounds, the difference between FMJ and expanding ammunition can mean the difference between a clean kill and losing a deer to slowly bleed out a mile or two away...

Earlsbud
February 24, 2012, 03:43 PM
In most 1911's the contour of hardball is most likely to feed. Of the HP's those most rounded and contoured like hardball are most likely to feed. If you get a FTF it doesn't matter how nasty your flying ashtray is. A problem some shooters have, myself included is the cost of firing enough primo HD ammo to PROVE the gun will feed it. As mentioned hardball isn't as likely to be used as a tool against you by a prosecutor.

NG VI
February 24, 2012, 03:46 PM
Guaranteed you have a lot more money tied up in holsters.


Or if you don't your making a huge mistake. There are tons of great $30-50 holsters available, even more if you extend the price range to $100, the difference between a $20 nylon or cheapest bidder leather holster and any decent one is almost hard to believe before you try them.

Certaindeaf
February 24, 2012, 03:56 PM
.As mentioned hardball isn't as likely to be used as a tool against you by a prosecutor.
This isn't Nuremberg. What?

NG VI
February 24, 2012, 03:57 PM
Aside from Harold Fish, when has a prosecutor ever tried to hit someone for using JHP ammunition? I mean I've never heard of a single real case where a person had their ammunition choice used against them in an otherwise legitimate shooting.

It's one of those concerns about something that 'could' happen but seems to have never happened. It's got a single high-profile example, but there were some other difficulties facing Fish, namely the whole wilderness shooting with zero eyewitnesses or other easily reviewed documentation of the incident.

As far as shooting enough to prove that it'll work, well the best thing is to use a variety of different loads and bullets for range time, if your pistol is going to be finicky it will show pretty quickly, and you don't need your gun to fire a thousand rounds of that exact ammunition in a self defense incident, you just need it to get through a magazine or two. If a semi chokes it's almost always a near-instant fix anyway, just yank the slide back and get back to what you were doing.

Certaindeaf
February 24, 2012, 04:01 PM
I like the Red Herring Gape Jaw myself. Oh the dear heavens.

psyopspec
February 24, 2012, 11:00 PM
There was a court case in Washington state I believe where a guy was convicted of murder rather than self defense largely due to the fact that experts testified that his 10mm was "bigger" than what the police carried, and his hollow points were designed to "kill". a recent technology podcast I listened to was commentating on a guy shooting his daughters laptop because of a Facebook post and the guy did it with "hollow points" and what was he doing with those??? has me kind of weirded out. So I only carry fmj. Personal choice I guess.

As mentioned hardball isn't as likely to be used as a tool against you by a prosecutor.

Source?

gc70
February 25, 2012, 01:47 AM
Also, what is this, a monthly thread? Quarterly?

Repetition just seems to reduce discussion and increase shouting.

jon_in_wv
February 25, 2012, 05:03 PM
Yeah, this topic is played out. At this point the mods should just close them down and say "refer to the infinite number of other threads on this topic".

NG VI
February 25, 2012, 05:40 PM
Repetition just seems to reduce discussion and increase shouting.


More importantly, there are always new people on the forum and a lot of people come to sites like this one specifically to learn about terminal ballistics and find out some reputable defense loads, because unlike some of us they don't have as much time tied up in reading and sorting through years worth of test data and whatever legitimate anecdotal reports are available.

Some of them don't know that the "medical examiner" who wrote about seeing victims who had 9mm bullets bounce off their ribs was full of animal mud, some of them don't know that the Marshall and Sanow (and Chuck Hawks) articles on effective defense ammunition don't hold up to scrutiny, many of them are bewildered by the array of different aggressively-named defense ammunition, and gunshop workers often muddy the waters more than they help point people in the responsible right direction.

That's the public service we're doing in here, disseminating the best objective information we can, so some poor guy new to shooting doesn't face crippling doubt about the ability of his 9mm to do it's part in protecting his family, or go buy the smallest .357 he can find because the cartridge has great energy numbers, and then load it with some flatnose FMJ because it "looks" like it would work better than a round nose bullet, when he'd be infinitely better served by a midsized 9mm with any of the assortment of fine defensive bullets available.

gc70
February 25, 2012, 06:48 PM
That's the public service we're doing in here, disseminating the best objective information we can

Yes, good information is valuable, which is why it is unfortunate that the signal sometimes gets drowned out by the noise in the highly repetitive topics.

Japle
February 25, 2012, 08:40 PM
Posted by Certaindeaf:
Go shoot a deer/hog or some other critter with some hardball. The difference is huge.

I watched a buddy shoot a 130 lb hog 11 times with a FMJ .45 ammo. Except for the squealing, the hog showed no signs of being hurt until shot #10.

I’m just glad that hog wasn’t armed and shooting at me all that time!!

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