Is the shooting experience being priced into Elitism?


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valnar
February 23, 2012, 07:25 PM
I'll admit this is a very strange thread for me to create, but it has been crossing my mind lately.

Are guns and shooting become an "Elite" pastime? With the price of ammo going up considerably, it's pricing itself out of the mainstream for many people. Sure, we either reload, shoot less or just flat out spend more money to keep up with the times, but usually when a hobby becomes expensive, it becomes a badge of honor for rich people.

Harley motorcycles are a perfect example. Once the passion of common, blue-collar men, you now find yuppies joining the crowd since they are apt to afford a $30,000 motorcycle. Of course, we've always had the high-end clay shooting shotgun crowd, and they will continue to afford that luxury into the near future. But maybe it's more than that now.

Now, my personal opinion....over the last few years of reading various gun forums, I've seen a few more posts about people buying high-end bolt guns, like Sako or Cooper because, well....the price of ammo is so expensive, that the price of a quality gun pales in comparison. Why run expensive ammo through a cheap gun, right?

These are just my thoughts and opinion, and I wanted to put them to paper. Anybody else feel this is happening?

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Murphy4570
February 23, 2012, 07:29 PM
I just shot 4 guns for over 2 hours at the range today, probably spent less than $80 in ammo amongst the four. Shot a LOT of ammo!

Cheap ammo and cheap guns are out there, you just have to look around.

bigfatdave
February 23, 2012, 07:32 PM
I've thought the same thing, the money I spend on guns and ammo would be a much bigger dent in the budget if I didn't have a pretty good job, pay-wise.

If the trend continues, even basic self-defense guns will become too expensive for an honest working person starting out. I suppose there is a segment of the political spectrum that would be delighted to have guns too expensive for po' folks, the same segment that passed "Jim Crow" laws and "may issue" CC permitting. (I'm not implying a conspiracy, just pointing out that guns were kept from the underclass in the past on purpose)

buck460XVR
February 23, 2012, 08:02 PM
I can still afford to shoot quite a bit cause I reload........but even that has gotten outta hand lately.

El Mariachi
February 23, 2012, 08:58 PM
After spending almost a quarter mil on a 55 foot sailboat, living aboard for 3 years then taking it down to Mexico for another two, plus all of the moorage fees & repair & maintenance bills before finally selling it and breathing a huge sigh of relief? Trust me, I almost feel like I'm getting paid to collect & shoot guns.......:D

The Lone Haranguer
February 23, 2012, 09:05 PM
Ammunition has certainly gone up from the 1990s and early 2000s, but I think it costs less, adjusted for inflation, than in the 1970s and 1980s.

wally
February 23, 2012, 09:09 PM
Ammunition has certainly gone up from the 1990s and early 2000s, but I think it costs less, adjusted for inflation, than in the 1970s and 1980s.

Check out old sporting magazines from the 1950s & 60s "surplus" $45 ACP was like $25/100, you could buy a decent new car for $2000-3000 back then.

nyrifleman
February 23, 2012, 09:13 PM
I don't think the price of guns is increasing at all. I would say that it remains pretty stable. You can have a good modern gun for $200-300 (I'm thinking a pump-action shotgun, basic rifle or basic handgun). Adjusted for inflation, I bet that's what the introductory price has been throughout the years.

Things like "assault weapons" tend to fluctuate in price due more to the political environment than actual cost of manufacturing.

Ammo prices are a different thing entirely. The high ammo prices are due mostly to the high cost of raw materials and high cost of energy (remember, it's gasoline that gets the copper from the mine to the refinery, from the refinery to the wholesaler, to the distributor, to the ammo plant, to the gun store) and it'll take some good old technological innovation to resolve that issue.

But it's not like the price of energy and raw materials isn't affecting everything else as well.

macadore
February 23, 2012, 09:21 PM
I bought a lot of ammo when it was cheap. Still shooting it. I also shoot surplus 7.62x54r and 5.54x39. They're corrosive, but cleaning the barrel is cheaper and faster than reloading. Nagants are a hoot. They're long enough that I can actually see the sights without glasses. That means I can also see the target.

I used to reload and enjoyed it. My house got overwhelmed (elderly relatives) so I had to put up my equipment. That's changed so I'm going to get back into it.

ApacheCoTodd
February 23, 2012, 09:25 PM
I think in my case it is no more expensive to shoot than it has ever been in a general round for round way, especially when - as stated above - adjusted for inflation.

Further, as I grow older I buy better ammunition, components and firearms and in fact fire less rounds per hour of shooting.

I have found myself enjoying the greater returns from quality items and well timed and analyzed shooting over my days of shooting whatever I could afford - as much as I could.

Additionally - a couple of quick glances along the firing line and around the parking lot at the Ben Avery Shooting Facility last week showed no signs of a move towards elitism though I certainly do understand the initial question on the OP's post.

moxie
February 23, 2012, 09:29 PM
Silly thread. Smacks of "class warfare." In 1989, Blazer 230 gr. ammo was $12.00 for a box of 50 at Sports Authority in Fort Worth. It was a decent deal. It's available at Natchez today for $14.99. All things considered, $14.99 today is a better value. Yes, reloading components have gone up. But they still allow the prudent reloader to shoot for a lot less than factory. You've got to look around for the good deals.

Jeff H
February 23, 2012, 09:30 PM
(remember, it's gasoline that gets the copper from the mine to the refinery, from the refinery to the wholesaler, to the distributor, to the ammo plant, to the gun store)

Actually, it is diesel but that doesn't make your point less valid. Energy costs are a huge factor as well as the scrap metal market. Have you seen what scrap lead and copper go for at the local recycler?

Walther P99
February 23, 2012, 09:33 PM
Seems like everything in the USA is getting more expensive with quality decreasing. After all, have to pay for the executive bonuses somehow..

nosmr2
February 23, 2012, 09:42 PM
I don't think an interest in firearms is more expensive than most hobbies. Have you priced a round of golf lately? I quit playing golf when it hit $30/round. That doesn't take into account the golf balls I would lose over the course of 18 holes. Not to mention the $130 driver and $300 set of irons (those are cheap compared to most) that you need. And if you are gonna golf you need beer, and you can't bring your own so add another $4 a beer. And when you get tired of golfing your kids or grandkids don't really care to inherit old clubs and they just aren't worth much. My guns will be around forever. They won't maintain the price I paid for them, but they will always be worth more than some old golf clubs and a bag. Not trying to rag on golf here, just the first example I thought of.
Hell, bowling has gotten crazy expensive at the lanes nowadays. I guess everything cost more, but better than sitting on my ass in front of the TV.

I reload now to save money and shoot my 22s more often than I used to, thanks to a serious cut in pay, but I still enjoy it.

Kingofthehill
February 23, 2012, 09:53 PM
i love shooting of all types but i find myself shooting less and when i do its my .22's

its getting expensive to shoot my beloved 1911's.

JOe

jim243
February 23, 2012, 09:58 PM
Is the shooting experience being priced into Elitism?

I know I'm getting old when read stuff like this. Now country club memberships ($10,000)are Elite not range memberships ($100.00), Now $350.00 for a single golf club (driver) is Elite not 22LR rifle for $150.00. What's the cost of golf balls $3.75 each or a dozen for $34.95, last time I looked 550 rounds of 22lr was about $18.95. What's a round (9 holes) of golf $35.00 or more, range fee last time I went was $10.00 for all day.

The problem is todays kids, yes if your under 45 years you are one of my kids, you are all spoilied. Back in the 1930's and 40's most people shot 12 gauge or 22 LR, basicly hunters shot the large bore centerfire rifles and then only maybe 10 or 15 rounds per year. Some would compete but only a very few. Today shooting is a sport (and here I though it was for feeding the family).

Yes, it costs me $80.00 in ammo each time I go to the range (I reload) but I would rather do that than spend another $250.00 on a new fishing rod and reel.

But that's just me.
Jim

shootniron
February 23, 2012, 10:01 PM
Shooting and guns have always been expensive. As a matter of fact, I am not sure that we are not in one of the best times ever for it. If ammo cost is pulling you down, try reloading...it makes a lot of difference in the amount that you can shoot for the same amount of money.

22-rimfire
February 23, 2012, 10:13 PM
I think buying and shooting firearms has always been fairly expensive. When 38spl ammo hit $10 a box and 357 mag ammo $12, I was thinking I needed to cut back. That is a while back. :D

Firearms are probably cheaper today than 50 years ago relative to what you earn. Ammunition has been creeping up in baby steps, then back, then up again.... just like gasoline, but it seldom goes back to the price it was before when it goes on sale.

For myself, I shoot more 22LR these days and enjoy it. I buy better 22 rifles and handguns because I like good looking firearms that shoot good. I keep a supply of centerfire handgun ammo, but not as much as 22LR. Other than 223, I keep a couple boxes of centerfire ammo to hunt with and it last years per box. Shoot in August.... check scope... yep its still on. Ready for hunting season for normal ranges. But honestly, I shifted to deer hunting with a handgun exclusively unless I am hunting fields. Even then, I still lean toward the handgun; just can't take as long a shot and it doesn't particularly bother me if I have to pass up a shot.

sugarmaker
February 23, 2012, 10:13 PM
Load, cast boolits, scrounge brass, buy good non-collector grade used guns, shoot an AR-15. Shooting cast 357's with 5-7 grains bullseye costs about 3 cents a round with scrounged brass. I shoot more $$ stuff now but when I was 12 and shot a 357 blackhawk many decades ago that's how I did it, two hours of lawn mowing back then equated to 300 rounds. My guess is that hasn't changed that much.

gbran
February 23, 2012, 10:15 PM
Pretty quick we'll be faced with $5 gasoline to get to the range with.

cavman
February 23, 2012, 10:19 PM
A Ruger .22 is all you need in Bullseye to make it to Master ranking using plain Jane ammo.

If you are a Junior, fees may be waived completely for matches.

You can buy a $30,000 Harley or a $6,000 Harley. You can buy a quarter mil 55 ft sailboat or a 19ft O'Day. Country club or Public course.

If someone wants to shoot or pursue whatever passion, I think nearly anyone can. The costs of entry are really pretty low, and they can enjoy the simple essence of their sport without needing to spend their way in.

22-rimfire
February 23, 2012, 10:20 PM
Yes, $5/gallon gas.... I pretty much shut down after $4.00 a gallon and only drive for necessities. Work comes first. I raise my prices to compensate for the gasoline cost.

jim243
February 23, 2012, 10:22 PM
Pretty quick we'll be faced with $5 gasoline to get to the range with.

That's the big problem, it takes me more than an hour to drive to an outdoor range.

Jim

jon volk
February 23, 2012, 10:24 PM
$19 for 100 rounds of 9mm at Walmart. Probably the cheapest fun I have.

Sheepdog1968
February 23, 2012, 10:28 PM
A box of 500 rounds of 22 LR will set you back $20ish. There's always clay shooting and bird shot isn't that bad. Yes, shooting can be expensive. There are some ways to keep it in check when the money gets tight.

22-rimfire
February 23, 2012, 10:28 PM
Maybe I need to buy a 9mm? :D Actually I own one but have never shot it. I will eventually sell it.

maskedman504
February 23, 2012, 10:36 PM
Elite? More like luxury.

Luxury items are unessential for survival that you spend extra income on.

Elite is more like yachts, planes, alpine homes etc.

If you are trying to shoot twice a week and then complain about it, maybe shoot less.

I shoot what I can afford; at the current time, I get to the range 6-12 times a year- but it is always a blast! ;)

OARNGESI
February 23, 2012, 10:47 PM
Theres not many other hobbies that are cheaper.

Serenity
February 23, 2012, 10:53 PM
I'm working class without a lot of disposable income. We drive older vehicles to avoid car payments. Live in a "big enough" house. Animals were other people's cast-offs. We can afford a couple of short driving trips a year or one longer fly-in vacation. Go to the movies a couple of times a month. Putting the kid in braces. Yep, I'd say mid-working class. I don't consider owning A gun a luxury, but more than one; yes. I do things like buy trade-in guns and will start reloading in the nearish future. Getting the equipment to do competition shooting is a bit of a stretch but once I have it ammo will be the only cost and that will be do-able. I'm hoping to pick up a carry gun this coming summer. If shooting was elitist, I wouldn't have been able to get into it.

bushmaster1313
February 23, 2012, 11:03 PM
Shoot less rounds per hour.
Where before I would shoot a whole box of .40s and a whole box of .38's at one trip to the range, now I am happy to shoot half a box of each.

El Mariachi
February 23, 2012, 11:10 PM
I just got a small shock last weekend...... .300 Savage is NOT cheap....:D

holdencm9
February 23, 2012, 11:18 PM
I don't think guns and ammo are getting more expensive, but everything else sure is. So luxuries and hobbies--any hobbies--feel the pinch.

That said, I think indoor ranges in urban areas have jacked up prices because, well, they can.

Serenity
February 23, 2012, 11:19 PM
bushmaster, I do that as well. I load 5 at a time into the magazine because I like to stop and look at my groups, and think about what I've been doing and what I might do differently. I trot out to the target and repaint it.

mgkdrgn
February 23, 2012, 11:36 PM
Not while there are still .22's and Mosins out there!

Hardtarget
February 23, 2012, 11:36 PM
What I see is the cost of gosoline eating into the budget so bad I cannot justify as much shooting. Just driving to the range is...noticeable. I have a good bit of ammo so I can take my grandson shooting every so often without buying ammo but we still have to get there! Then I stop and fill up...and...:what:

Mark

browningguy
February 24, 2012, 01:23 AM
The short answer has to be no, shooting is cheaper now than almost any time in history based on a cost of living/salary comparison.

And we have many more options now than when I started in the early 60's.

Davek1977
February 24, 2012, 02:31 AM
I think anyone who is passionate about the sport will find ways to make it happen, whether its downsizing in caliber, less range time, etc. The same people I knew 20 years ago who did a fair amount of shooting.....still do a fair amount of shooting. It may dissuade new shooters a bit, before they get bitten by the shooting "bug" but in my experience, a shooter is a shooter,and very few things can or will change that. Frequency, duration, and or caliber may change, but most people who care about the sport or hobby find ways to make it happen, regardless of income levels or cost. That might mean shooting a brick of .22 rather than 3-4 boxes of .223 or whatever, but shooters find a way to shoot!

JShirley
February 24, 2012, 03:20 AM
As a few others have said, relative to the price of things in general, shooting is actually less expensive than it has been at many times in the past.

Whether you realize it or not, we live in a golden age of weapons technology. Once upon a time, only the very richest could afford very high quality weapons. This is why, during times of conflict, most people pressed farm implements into service.

In these days, a very serviceable rifle can be had for less than what most people earn in a week. Spending more won't necessarily net a "better" arm, just a more expensive one. Same thing with sidearms: a sidearm as good as anything out there can be had for about 3 or 4 days' worth of work, for most of us.

What used to be prohibitive pricing- like the $200 tax that was astronomical in late 1930s USA- is not so out of reach, now. In many ways, we have it good.

John

Zoogster
February 24, 2012, 06:12 AM
As mentioned things are cheaper today than in most of our history.


There was a time period where it was even better. The buying power and wealth of the United States, and the lack of industrial capacity in much of the third world and corresponding reduced demand for even their own resources, along with a few other things made the 1990s probably the best it had ever been for US citizens to get the most from their dollar.
So yes it is today worse than then, but better than it will probably ever be again as much of the world catches up.

When one looks at prior prices one must also look at the value of currency at that point, your average wages, minimum wages, and what other commodities cost.
Things have been getting worse for over a decade, but that is because you experienced the best it had ever been in history.

Today you can buy these things cheaper than in most of our nation's history, even though there was a brief period were you had it even better.
Just listen to stories of prior decades when many people used to have to ration individual shots, and ammo was so valuable that shooting outside of hunting was often considered wasteful.
Going and shooting hundreds of rounds as many do now at the range, or thousands as many do in a competition, would have been nearly unheard of for most people in many prior generations.
Today it is rare to see someone shoot less than a box of 20-50 handgun rounds at the range on a single visit. A visit they make on a regular basis. In some generations that was as many as people shot all year.
In fact it might be interesting to figure out how many rounds people like Elmer Kieth shot in a year, I bet your average competition shooter shoots more annually today.
Your average person today who prioritizes firearms can put more rounds down range than the people shooting the most rounds in society who lived and breathed firearms for their livelihood AND recreation some generations ago.

That said it is getting expensive for those who do not prioritize firearms compared to the 1990s and 2000s.
I don't do much shooting anymore, having other interests I would have to neglect. There is many great things to do in life, and investing enough in projecting pieces of metal that it reduces other experiences seems wasteful.
Shooting was so inexpensive that it didn't require any prioritization or budgeting for awhile there, and could just be an extra misc activity in addition, but now it actually is a sizable recreational cost.

Of course everything is going up. In the 90s people could drive around all day 'cruising' for recreation as was popular amongst youth and it cost little more than spare change. A road trip was the dirt cheap way to travel anyone could afford if they had time.
Today just driving straight to and from local destinations adds up, and driving even halfway across the country costs more than flying.


Some of the cost of shooting is also due to legislation.
Without the prohibitions on 'armor piercing' ammo someone could have a dirt cheap scrap iron core projectile coated in polymer that was 1/3 of the price of current bullets. Which could probably cut the cost of plinking handgun ammo at least in half.

Ragnar Danneskjold
February 24, 2012, 06:52 AM
Seems like everything in the USA is getting more expensive with quality decreasing. After all, have to pay for the executive bonuses somehow..

Score another point for the media.

Salmoneye
February 24, 2012, 10:41 AM
I know very few people that 'shoot' more than a couple of times a year, and even less that reload...

I know LOTS of people that hunt many days a year, and 'shoot' when they do...

Around here 'shooting' is not the 'sport'; hunting is...

A couple friends and family get together maybe a half dozen times a year to shoot hand tossed clays...$20 a piece on 100 round box of Wally-World promo shells, and you have one heck of an afternoon...

You can shoot on the cheap here, if you have a place to shoot...Luckily, this is still a very laid back place with lots of open space between neighbors...There are also a couple of 'ranges' comprised of old gravel pits that are privately owned and user maintained...Check in at the house on the way into the pit, and if there is a mess when you leave, you will not be welcome back...Much of the use of these places is LEO from miles around...

BTW

I did not get into reloading to 'save money'...I started because I bought a .357 Herrett barrel for my Contender, and there was no such thing as 'commercial' ammo for it...

Learning to dial in loads that would group how I wanted them got me hooked, and I started in on most other calibers I had...

ny32182
February 24, 2012, 11:02 AM
Just listen to stories of prior decades when many people used to have to ration individual shots, and ammo was so valuable that shooting outside of hunting was often considered wasteful.
Going and shooting hundreds of rounds as many do now at the range, or thousands as many do in a competition, would have been nearly unheard of for most people in many prior generations.

Totally agreed... these "woe is me" threads just crack me up after a while.

Ask yourself whether your father or grandfather, when he was your age, could do the amount of shooting you do now.

In my case the answer is no. Hell no. A resounding no. No chance whatsoever. They wouldn't have had the chance to laugh at the thought, because there is no way it would have ever entered their mind.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if I shoot more rounds in one month of competition pistol practice than my older relatives did in a decade or more. We live in a golden age folks.

lathedog
February 24, 2012, 11:10 AM
Fair question, but it does indicate a lack of familiarity with the shooting world and its history.

As several folks posted already, the cost in terms of average weekly pay to purchase a gun has been dropping for the last several decades.

Ammo has been getting more expensive, but we recently saw a several decade "reverse bubble" with lots of cheap imported surplus ammo that helped to drive prices down. Ammo prices in the 70's and early 80's were similar in dollar amounts to today's prices. And the dollar was worth about twice as much (or more) back then.

US Minimum wage is $7.25/hr. Forget all the payroll deductions. A low end 22 rifle on sale can be found for less than 15 hours of minimum wage. The cost of 22 ammo is about 3 hours labor for a 550 round bulk pack. 30 or 40 years ago that rifle was 20 hours of labor to purchase. Not the same rifle, but you get the point.

There are a lot of folks out there who cannot afford basic needs for food and shelter. That is a shame. I do not consider guns to be a luxury any more than I consider any other human right or individual liberty to be luxuries.

aka108
February 24, 2012, 11:13 AM
I reload mostof what I shoot. A few years ago Remington bullets for most common calibers ran 85 to 95 dollar per 1000. So the price of copper rises maybe tripiling the material cost of the bullet but no enough to cause the prices to rise to 25 or 30 cents per bullet. Anyway, reloading at 40 to 50 cents a pop is still less expensive than a buck or buck and a half per pop for new stuff. Day at the range is still less expensive than a day of golf and you don't have to wear those funny clothes.

oneounceload
February 24, 2012, 11:16 AM
If it is costing too much switch from your fast-shooting semi to a nice single action - the time it takes to load and unload will stretch your shooting dollars over the same given period of time.

I still have shotgun ammo boxes i bought back in the early 1980's, and the prices were marked at $10 and up. Same ammo today after 30 years of inflation? $8 and up.

Most complaining about shooting costing too much do not reload, and shoot semi guns as fast as they can pull a trigger without regard (for a lot of them) as to any kind of single hole accuracy. I have watched young kids come to the indoor range with their guns and go through more ammo in a half hour then i shoot in a month or two -if you have the money to spend - go ahead and have at it all you want; if you don't, then find a way to better stretch your limited resources

ny32182
February 24, 2012, 11:18 AM
You can spend as much or as little as you want golfing, just like you can shooting, or doing just about any other activity.

Manny
February 24, 2012, 11:49 AM
I sold my .308 & .45's and got .223 and 9mm to save on ammo. .22's are much more than they were, but still reasonable, as are 12ga valupaks. Compared to what many folks spend on big screen TV's cable & satellite bills, CD's & DVD's, computors and cell phones that are obsolete when you walk out of the store, guns and shooting isn't that bad. Cheaper would be nice, but if you want to participate generally a way can be found.

Ankeny
February 24, 2012, 12:02 PM
As one who does a lot of competition shooting, I can tell you the cost of reloading components in the last 10 years has risen at a much higher rate than the increase in wages in my area. I used to shoot several thousand rounds a week while preparing for a big match. Now I shoot a couple of thousand rounds a month. The price for 9mm Zero 125 grain HP bullets is now $113.00 a thousand. Anyone want to guess what they cost in the year 2000? How soon we forget.

gym
February 24, 2012, 12:30 PM
I shoot more now that I moved to a slower paced area, and know less folks. But it can get expensive. Luckilly I have a range in town that only get's $10 dollars to shoot as long as you want. And they let you bring your own ammo, So if I catch a wallmart deal for 10 bucks a box for 9mm, and $16 for 40,45, I can do it for under $50 dollars. This allows me to fire a combo platter of whatever I brought with me that day, 380, maybe 3 or 4 mags, just for function test, then 100 rounds of 9, 50 of, 40 or 45. That's it. I can't stay indoors much longer than that, unless no one is there, in which case I can practice drawing and dbl tapping from out of holster. Since they never told me not to, i believe it's ok, as the owner has watched me shoot. Never says much, just a nod. No sense sitting there wasting lead when you shoot the same almost every shot. I can't imagine how some fellas shoot 300 or 400 rounds, for me it's just boring after about 150.If you want to save money , just shoot 9mm. You should have a fast reset trigger, so you can optimize the high capacity magazines in most 9's now a days.

Tubby513
February 24, 2012, 01:16 PM
Like someone else mentioned, the $20 box of 100 rounds 9mm at Wal-Mart is the best deal I can find. I got my shotgun shells for 60 cents each.

So I can rent a lane at the range for $9, a couple bucks for targets, and $20 in ammo...about $30 to practice and get better...once or twice a month...anyone can afford that if they're smart with their money.

USAF_Vet
February 24, 2012, 01:38 PM
I shoot for fun, not in competitions and not for a living. I shoot when I feel like shooting, and don't when I don't. Pretty simple. I also shoot four of the cheapest rounds out there: .22lr, 9mm, 7.62x54r and 7.62x39. I just loaded up a new drum may and two more 20 rounders and still have unopened boxes of the 39. I spent about $30 to load the mags, which isn't bad considering I don't reload or buy in bulk. I don't have money coming out the wazoo, and support my family on a single income. If only the elite could afford to shoot, I would have sold my guns.

Onward Allusion
February 24, 2012, 01:45 PM
valnar
Is the shooting experience being priced into Elitism?

I'm only speaking from my personal experience. Shooting sports and general plinking is probably one of the less expensive sports to get into. One can pick up a used 22LR revolver, safety glasses, ear plugs, & a brick of 22LR ammo for less than $250. If one really looks and asks the right questions, that amount can be around $200. The problem is that if the "sport" becomes a "hobby", then gawd help you 'cause it becomes a money pit like any hobby.

As for elitism, that happens in any hobby or sport. You will always have some people that look down upon anything that they perceive as less in value as their own stuff. The Taurus/Hi-Point-is-complete-garbage-and-I-would-rather-use-a-brick-if-my-life-was-at-stake-crowd is a good example. I'm also sure that there are some folks reading this post thinking "What the hell is he talking about...$200 to get into the sport?".

fastbolt
February 24, 2012, 06:28 PM
Dunno that the cost of guns and ammunition has necessarily priced shooting as a hobby or recreational pursuit in "elitism" ...

However, I just gassed up my wife's SUV and paid $4.29 for regular.

Using your same reasoning & criteria, is the price of gas making driving a motor vehicle "elitism"? :scrutiny:

valnar
February 24, 2012, 06:58 PM
Using your same reasoning & criteria, is the price of gas making driving a motor vehicle "elitism"?

That's funny, but point well taken.

Thanks for the input so far. I believe everyone is correct that the price of arms, comparatively, has dropped over the years, or more to the point "not" risen in comparison to inflation. But I have no doubt that ammo has increased higher than inflation due to the cost of raw materials. I think of what I paid for cartridges back in the late 1990's and it has skyrocketed since then. I never, ever, considered reloading my ammo back 10 years ago. Now it is on the radar.

hogrdr
February 24, 2012, 07:07 PM
its all in priorities, i have an 04 road king, didn't pay no 30 grand for it, 18000.00 used with 1305 miles on it in late 04. i am in the low middle class too. people driving 40000.00 4wds always say, boy i wish i could afford one of those. i pinch pennys, don't take vacations, drive a truck older than my bike, buy almost everything at yard sales, but i do have my harley and guns. MOST anyone can afford to own and shoot some kind of gun, and own a harley, if its a priority.

DeepSouth
February 24, 2012, 07:41 PM
Someone needs to find an inflation calculator and put in the price of a few guns from past years and calculate them to today's prices and see what comes out. That will be be the closest thing to facts we will have in this thread and I'll bet it will be interesting.

Forgive typos. Posted from my iPhone via tapatalk.
DS

jcwit
February 24, 2012, 07:51 PM
Here you go.

http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

jcwit
February 24, 2012, 07:56 PM
I remember the days when one could buy .303 enfields for $10.00, Jungle Carbines for $15.00.

Today those should be in the $75 to $100 dollar range.

I also remember buying gas in the '50's/60's for $ .16 cents a gal. So gas should be $1.25 a gal today, something happened.

Zoogster
February 24, 2012, 08:28 PM
jcwit said: I remember the days when one could buy .303 enfields for $10.00, Jungle Carbines for $15.00.

Today those should be in the $75 to $100 dollar range.


It was not because that was the price of that firearm, but rather because they were surplus.
To get that surplus required an empire upgrading to something else, and involved mass production for World Wars were many people died, were rationed, and generally had a lower quality of life.
Would you trade another World War for some cheap surplus some decades down the road?


The reason you don't have similarly inexpensive modern surplus is because of legislation. Legislation prevents civilians from being given select fire rifles.
Select fire rifles have been the standard for half a century, so civilians can no longer have such surplus dropped on them like in prior generations.
Instead the government destroys it, sells it to other governments, or gives or nearly permanently 'loans' (due to legal technicalities) it to other government forces like federal and local law enforcement agencies.

Many police departments have received retired m16s for around that price. If it was legal for civilians to have them you may have received them too.

I can assure you that after the end of the Cold War there was a lot of 'excess' that would have been just as inexpensive as those Enfields adjusted for inflation.
Clinton had nearly almost a million m14's destroyed, those would have been among the flood of surplus.
Similar quantities of USGI 1911 pistols were destroyed, due to legislation and politics, and those were legal for civilians to own.
A lot of m3s, Thompsons, and other guns stockpiled in armories were similarly destroyed.
You could probably have had a surplus M3 for under $25.

Then there is all sorts of import laws now in place preventing even semi-auto surplus from freely flowing into the nation like it used to be able to. You have 'sporting purpose' restrictions, 922(r), bans on Chinese guns, or Russian handgun imports, points systems handguns imported must meet, and loads of other crap that reduces the foreign surplus market available in the USA.


So no, the difference is not inflation and cost of the arm, but politics and legal reasons you do not see the market saturated with retired more modern surplus like it was in the 1950s and 60s.



jcwit said: I also remember buying gas in the '50's/60's for $ .16 cents a gal. So gas should be $1.25 a gal today, something happened.

It was on par with that in the 1990s into the early 2000s. Gas cost under $1 without the new additional state and federal taxes placed on it. There was new road taxes at the federal level on fuel, and states that previously didn't tax fuel at all have now uniformly began taxing it by the gallon. Some much more than others.
Taxes on fuel in 2009:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/US_Diesel_Taxes_April_2009.svg/776px-US_Diesel_Taxes_April_2009.svg.png

It has now of course skyrocketed in cost beyond these taxes or inflation.

B!ngo
February 24, 2012, 08:33 PM
I don't think it's an economic issue, it's an internet (well, a web) issue. More and more people join sites like these to discuss guns and related activities. And they typically don't spend time discussing $250 handguns, factory reloads, or plinking at a nearby open pit.
No, it's H&K's, Kimbers, high-end bolt rifles, interesting AR's and upgraded Saiga 12 gauges.
It's more interesting, gets the juices flowing regarding informed and uninformed responses and a lot of fun engaging in the wanna be discussions. All good.
But statistically, these are not the average hand- or long-guns that people buy for home defense or hunting.
There may also be some SES bias re who is on the internet and thus what they own.

hso
February 25, 2012, 12:40 AM
Nope

If you actually want to see what shooting as a sport for the elites is talk to shooters in Europe. The price for firearms produced there and sold there are much much higher than the same firearm sold here. The cost of accessories is much much higher. The licensing is much much higher.

Things may be getting more expensive here for shooters, but it is nothing compared to what our colleagues in Europe pay.

Voltia
February 25, 2012, 01:38 AM
Read through this thread, and the thing that stuck with me is the comment on the first page about anyone being under 45 being that man's kid and being spoiled.

Sorry, Pops, but you're not my old man, and I paid for every gun, every bullet, and every mag I own, so I'm not spoiled, thank you very much.

Some people complain about not being able to have hobbies. These are the same people with just high school educations with jobs that are prone to layoffs, and 4 children they had while in their 20s.

Versus, say, a person with graduate degrees, a high end job, single, and investing 50% of their income...that person can buy whatever gun he wants each month.

It's all about choices.

Chris-bob
February 25, 2012, 01:40 AM
I think what makes it seem more expensive is more of our money goes to other priorities first, then what is left over is divied out to our hobbies/sports. I used to go out and bu several boxes of .44mag and bricks of .22lr and shoot them in a day. Easily afforded all that and the guns and the gas and the new car and...but now, I have a family, health insurance, medical bills, used cars, more hobbies that require money, my fixer-upper house and my farm animals. I make over 3 times what I did back then, but have more pre-shooting activities demanding my money.

JohnBT
February 25, 2012, 09:49 AM
I'm 61. We recently went through an abnormal period of pretty cheap surplus and domestic ammo. Now things are back to more of what I think of as normal pricing, although it's still cheaper than it was in the '50s and '60s.
Sure, a box of Winchester .22 LR was only 55 or 60 cents when I was a youngster, but I only made $1.15 an hour at McDonalds in 1966.

Ammo was too expensive to blast with back then. I still think it's wasteful. Fun, but useless.

We also went through a period or two recently with superheated areas of the economy and lots of people had money to burn. Wheeeee, pile on the debt and spend it like it's going out of style. Lots of high school and college students from that era believe that kind of economy was normal and that it's coming back soon. Nope, sorry.

John

mgmorden
February 25, 2012, 09:56 AM
The problem is todays kids, yes if your under 45 years you are one of my kids, you are all spoilied. Back in the 1930's and 40's most people shot 12 gauge or 22 LR, basicly hunters shot the large bore centerfire rifles and then only maybe 10 or 15 rounds per year. Some would compete but only a very few. Today shooting is a sport (and here I though it was for feeding the family).

This is about what I think of it. Really, "the shooting experience" is kinda like looking at old westerns - its a thing that never really existed.

People in this country have long owned guns and shot them, but I think people are SERIOUSLY overestimating HOW MUCH those guns got shot. Most of my friends and family for example are pretty old-school folks. They hunt and own guns and what not, but most view target shooting as "wastin' bullets".

The practice of visiting a range and shooting hundreds of rounds of ammo at a time is mostly a more modern thing, at least for most folks.

btg3
February 25, 2012, 10:04 AM
Is the shooting experience being priced into Elitism?

IMO, this is one of the more significant questions asked on this forum. Dismissive responses fail to consider the NFA shooting experience and associated price. If all shooting were regulated to a similar extent, then the experience would not be as accessible as currently enjoyed. Also if pricing headed upward toward elitism, the clientele for ranges and gun stores would shrink and those "opportunities" would decrease.

Of course it should be recognized that regulation is not free and inherently produces higher cost in the form of bigger government and higher taxes. Conceivably, an effective strategy employed by gun control advocates would be to regulate toward elitism. We may not be there yet, but we've certainly been prodded down that road some distance -- from "no infringement" toward ever increasing infringement in the form of regulation. Is there any going back?

Perhaps we are so far away from elitism that we take the current situation for granted. However, as we know: "the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" so 3 questions:
1. What road have we been on for the past 200 years?
2. What direction on that road will the next steps take us?
3. Will you be part of the problem or part of the solution?

gunnutery
February 25, 2012, 10:18 AM
I'm not saying I like higher prices on anything, but you have to "pay to play" for a lot of things. People afford what they want.

Amongst my friends and acquaintences, I'm a very small minority when it comes to cable/sat TV. I don't have the time to watch it and I don't want my kids watching all the crap on TV, but there are millions of people that just vege out on mindless programming for hours on end every day. Others still dump thousands into cars/atv's/snow mobiles, sports, movies, video games etc. Guns just happens to be what I spend time and money on for both entertainment and defense.

valnar
February 25, 2012, 10:26 AM
We recently went through an abnormal period of pretty cheap surplus and domestic ammo.

I believe that might be part of it. I started during the surplus heyday, but I also remember 9mm and .45ACP being much cheaper just 10 years ago. Nowadays, the only surplus stuff left is 7.62x54r or 7.62x39. Wanna buy a factory rifle round above .338? Forget it. $60 for a box is insanity.

Does anybody have a link that shows a chart with ammo prices over the decades, so we can put some objective numbers to our subjective statements?

Ky Larry
February 25, 2012, 10:28 AM
When I started shooting, I had a lot of other things that ate my paycheck. There was rent, carpayments, kids clothes, dental bills, etc. Now, I have fewer expenses but gas, food, and hobbies cost more. Seems about the same to me. There is always unlimited demand but limites funds.

lowerunit411
February 25, 2012, 11:17 AM
I understand the the intention of the question but i think the terminology is incorrect. The definition of ELITISM is this:
e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.
I think the real question is more appropriately: Is the cost of shooting preventing the "average " person from participating?
In my opinion it is not. I do think that hunting is escalating to some lofty heights.

xfyrfiter
February 25, 2012, 12:21 PM
Shooting can be as cheap, or as expensive as you make it. You want to shoot long range? Go get a decent .22 and max it out. You can shoot out to 300 yards pretty effectively, and when you move the skills learned at 300 yards those translate to shooting high power out to 1k pretty well. Sure it is not the same but it will take a lot less ammo on the expensive stuff to reach an acceptable level of profiency.

camar
February 25, 2012, 04:15 PM
I could see it becomming an elitist hobby if the ammo prices keeps rising and income stays the same.

It it way cheaper to reload and cast your own bullets. I have been using Lee reloading products for over 40+ yrs. I started out with the hand loader, progressed to the single stage, then bought the 4 turret and was given a 3 turret. It takes longer than using an RCBS, Dillon, etc., but I have more time than I do money.

huntsman
February 25, 2012, 04:45 PM
Is the shooting experience being priced into Elitism?

let the masses eat cake and own Hi-Points while the real gun guys (elite?) will shoot the 1911 and reload ;)

jad0110
February 25, 2012, 05:57 PM
Quote:
Just listen to stories of prior decades when many people used to have to ration individual shots, and ammo was so valuable that shooting outside of hunting was often considered wasteful.
Going and shooting hundreds of rounds as many do now at the range, or thousands as many do in a competition, would have been nearly unheard of for most people in many prior generations.

Totally agreed... these "woe is me" threads just crack me up after a while.


The cost of 50 rounds 45 Colt ammo back in the late 1800s was easily a full day's average wages. Today, even at minimum wage you could afford 2+ 50 round boxes of the same ammo. If ammo prices were the same today relative to what they were in the late 1800s, a box of LRN 45 Colt (50 rounds) would be roughly $100. Not an exact figure, I just did some of the basic math in my head, but you get the idea.

gunsandreligion
February 25, 2012, 09:56 PM
All hobbies or sports cost $. I think a big reason it seems to cost more is because we shoot a lot more centerfire than we did in the past. Around here 22 costs around $15-$17 a brick, and 12ga is about $4.75-$5.25 for 25, which is pretty good. I also think it will seem cheaper if you use a auto less.

jcwit
February 25, 2012, 10:10 PM
Around here 22 costs around $15-$17 a brick,

Match .22 LR that I shoot is $75.00 a brick and up.

22-rimfire
February 25, 2012, 10:17 PM
So I can rent a lane at the range for $9, a couple bucks for targets, and $20 in ammo...about $30 to practice and get better...once or twice a month...anyone can afford that if they're smart with their money.

I tend to agree with that. For me, shooting is simply not a priority even though I have a lot of ammunition available to me. Price is always a factor, but time and motivation is a much bigger factor. Heck. I am a member of a private club that is under 10 miles from my house and I still don't make it there more than a couple times a month at best. I simply don't have much free time that I want to use up shooting.

Good 22 ammunition does cost a bit. I buy it and shoot it.

The shooting sports in general is not ELITIST at all. I consider it rather blue collar, so I fit right in.

Ridgerunner665
February 25, 2012, 10:24 PM
Somebody mentioned "priorities"...I agree with that.

Myself...I'm a truck driver and I do not even own a personal vehicle (my wife does and its not anywhere near a new one), but I have a few guns and plenty of ammo and reloading supplies.

We do not have satellite or cable TV...but we have trial cameras, all sorts of hunting gear, (that stuff is expensive).

It comes down to what a person wants...if hunting and shooting is what you want, it can be afforded even on a truck drivers income.

roadchoad
February 25, 2012, 11:02 PM
You can buy a 9mm and 200 rounds, or a .22 rifle and a brick for less than 200 bucks. Pretty affordable in my opinion. It cost me a couple hundred bucks for my son to play football each year, shooting is a pittance compared to that.

Other things cost less now as well. I mean, think of the $200 tax stamp for NFA items. That hasn't changed since 1934, so realistically, the cost of that is a small fraction of what it once was.

Beak50
February 26, 2012, 03:40 AM
My fin law got me into shooting and has 2-3 time's as many gun's of all sort's Browining's.ect kinda high end I guess, with leupold glass.I Have a few fine gun's myself,but these day's We are gonna buy my son a Cooper with Primo glass and call it quit's for collecting except the old Mil-surp's.To buy the set up we have in his basement we got now there is no way possible I could ever afford it now being on Disability and him retired.My fin law alway's said that all gun related stuff would skyrocket!I'm looking at a box of Marlin 444 shell's I paid $15.95 for what are they now?Over $30.00.

jsimmons
February 26, 2012, 09:23 AM
You don't have to buy the designer guns. I purchased a RIA 1911 FS Tactical for $420, and greatly improved its accuracy by spending another $160 on a drop-in barrel/bushing kit and an adjustable match trigger. Total outlay less that $600, and it out-shoots my $1000 Springfield (even after being massaged by their Custom Shop). You can also get a RIA 1911 G.I. for less than $400.

As far as ammo goes, my wife has gotten in the habit of picking up a box of .45 ACP for my 1911's, and a couple of boxes of Tula .223 for my ARs, every time she goes to Wal-mart, and we have a constant supply of about 800 rounds of each caliber available at any given time. It's not hard to stock up on ammo that way, especially during the winter months when it's just too damn cold to go out and shoot.

Accurate rifles can be had relatively inexpensively, especially if you buy a .22. Savage bolt guns, a Ruger 10-22, or Henry H001 can all be had for less than $200, and ammo is super cheap compared to center-fire cartridges. If your tastes go more towards evil black rifles, a S&W M&P15 Sport is between $600-700, or you could always get a AK-47.

Pilot
February 26, 2012, 09:29 AM
After all, have to pay for the executive bonuses somehow..


That comment was really uncalled for. I could say the same thing about union wages. Take your jealousy and class warfare elsewhere pal.

Everything is getting more expensive. We have a lot of hidden inflation, that nobody, including the media is talking about. Commodoties, metals, energy (fuel) all have combined to make guns and ammo more expensive. I reload, and shoot a lot of bulk .22's. That's how I deal with it.

Beagle-zebub
February 26, 2012, 10:05 AM
We have a lot of hidden inflation, that nobody, including the media is talking about.

That comment was really uncalled for. :neener: You can't just "hide" inflation; it's determined by an un-controversial index of goods and services, all of which have prices anyone can look up for themselves. Consumer Price Index. (http://www.bls.gov/cpi/)

When you look at the numbers on any given commodity that seems to have gone up, it's most likely still cheaper than before the crash. Gas is definitely still cheaper than it was for most of 2008 (http://gasbuddy.com/gb_retail_price_chart.aspx). Copper? Down from where it was a year ago. (http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/copper_historical.html) Lead? Way below pre-crash prices. (http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/lead_historical.html) So depending on which two points in time you're comparing, those goods could actually deflate the measurement of overall inflation.

And here's a huge one that's gotten much cheaper: houses. ...though I'm not sure how that factors into determining inflation, because I don't know whether they measure the raw value of something like a house, or the amount mortgage holders have to pay on a loan for any given piece of property.

Man, reading this CPI stuff is making my head hurt. :p No more statistics after doing math homework!

22-rimfire
February 26, 2012, 10:17 AM
I will say that speaking in generalities, high end precision target shooting is sort of elitist. But nobody is forcing anyone to buy or build these rigs. I say... more power to ya if you want to and can get into that sport!

Double Naught Spy
February 26, 2012, 10:35 AM
Now, my personal opinion....over the last few years of reading various gun forums, I've seen a few more posts about people buying high-end bolt guns, like Sako or Cooper because, well....the price of ammo is so expensive, that the price of a quality gun pales in comparison. Why run expensive ammo through a cheap gun, right?

I have never understood the notion that there is supposed to be some sort of financial harmony between ammunition, guns, and their accessories. I am fairly certain that the gun doesn't care about the price of the ammo and the ammo doesn't care about the price of the gun. The optics are pretty much unclear on this as well.

langenc
February 26, 2012, 01:51 PM
Ammo is expensive..

Compare it and range expenses for the non club members to a ticket to a NFL, NBA or eve at the movies..

Eve at the movies w/ pop/popcorn probably in the $15+ range and there are very few movies that interest me..

Tickets to NFL/NBA-I have no idea but more than I spend for gas, target fees(22 BR match) and ammo, Im sure. I drive 140 mi (one way) to the match, plus $8 bridge tolls to get to the range.

Walther P99
February 26, 2012, 08:39 PM
Jealousy and class warfare? Sorry but wrong. My comments were based on my experience as an accountant/auditor..

oneounceload
February 26, 2012, 09:39 PM
way too many seem to be too young to remember what ammo and reloading components cost back in the 70's and 80's when things cost more then than they do now and wages were a LOT less............we had some good years (price-wise) on ammo and components and everyone seems to think they should always stay that way, when there is global pressure on the raw materials............ we helped enrich the Chinese and Indian economies to the point they now have a middle class who wants things like cars (lead batteries), electronics (precious and semi-precious metals), and a government who now wants the military to NOT sell brass to commercial ammo makers, but lose money having it shredded and sold to the Chinese

sixgunner455
February 27, 2012, 12:39 AM
.22LR is my primary means of shooting entertainment, and has been ever since I got into shooting. I own more of them than anything else.

But I do own other guns now, which I didn't used to, and I handload, too. Back when 9mm cost 10 bucks per hundred, I bought all of it I shot, but now, twice as expensive, it's hard to make myself pay for commercial ammo for it, so I started reloading for it. .38 got more expensive, too, so I reload for that. And my .243, I can't hardly make myself pay a dollar a round for it. But .25/rd to reload, I'll do.

I don't reload so I can afford to shoot. I can afford to buy ammo. I reload so I can shot more per dollar I spend.

Elitism? Nah. I don't know any shooters that don't want more people in the sport, that don't want to see kids at the range, that won't share ammo with somebody that wants to try their guns.

This is one of the most inclusive sports there is. The price of entry is a .22 rifle and a brick of ammo, on up to as much as you want to spend, but nobody thinks less of the guy with just the .22. They just want to see him get out and shoot.

jcwit
February 27, 2012, 12:54 AM
The price of entry is a .22 rifle and a brick of ammo, on up to as much as you want to spend, but nobody thinks less of the guy with just the .22. They just want to see him get out and shoot.

Try showing up at a .22 Benchrest match with your Romanian M69 bolt action & a brick of Remington Yellow Jackets.

tnelson31
February 27, 2012, 06:50 AM
Try showing up at a .22 Benchrest match with your Romanian M69 bolt action & a brick of Remington Yellow Jackets.
Is that the shooting experience, or the competition experience?

jcwit
February 27, 2012, 08:23 AM
Not sure, but it sure would be an enlighting experience, No?

Pilot
February 27, 2012, 09:28 AM
That comment was really uncalled for. You can't just "hide" inflation; it's determined by an un-controversial index of goods and services, all of which have prices anyone can look up for themselves.

We're talking about ammunintion and guns right? Where do you see commodities such as metals, in the CPI? This is probably one of the largest factor in costs, and it is not tracked in the CPI, so many don't see it unless they follow the commodities markets. Many don't even follow the CPI, nor does the media often discuss it becuase it often BORES people, and they turn the channel. Just because something is public info, doesn't mean it gets read. Yes, shame on us, but it is a reality.



FOOD AND BEVERAGES (breakfast cereal, milk, coffee, chicken, wine, full service meals, snacks)
HOUSING (rent of primary residence, owners' equivalent rent, fuel oil, bedroom furniture)
APPAREL (men's shirts and sweaters, women's dresses, jewelry)
TRANSPORTATION (new vehicles, airline fares, gasoline, motor vehicle insurance)
MEDICAL CARE (prescription drugs and medical supplies, physicians' services, eyeglasses and eye care, hospital services)
RECREATION (televisions, toys, pets and pet products, sports equipment, admissions);
EDUCATION AND COMMUNICATION (college tuition, postage, telephone services, computer software and accessories);
OTHER GOODS AND SERVICES (tobacco and smoking products, haircuts and other personal services, funeral expenses).

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/cpifaq.htm#Question_7

Pilot
February 27, 2012, 09:31 AM
Jealousy and class warfare? Sorry but wrong. My comments were based on my experience as an accountant/auditor.


So then you would know what the percentage of executive bonuses were compared to total operating expenses, or even just total labor costs, right?

Please. :rolleyes:

sixgunner455
February 27, 2012, 12:00 PM
Not sure, but it sure would be an enlighting experience, No?

Especially enlightening since, if you did show up like that, you'd probably end up shooting some Wolf or Eley through somebody's match rifle, just to show you what a rifle and ammo set up to compete in that game can do.

Just sayin'. I can't remember the last time I admired someone's gun at the range and wasn't offered a chance to put a few rounds through it, whether it was a match rifle or a machine gun.

:D

Walther P99
February 27, 2012, 01:24 PM
Deleted

Walther P99
February 27, 2012, 01:27 PM
So then you would know what the percentage of executive bonuses were compared to total operating expenses, or even just total labor costs, right?

Please. :rolleyes:
Doesn't matter when most of them are also members of the Board of Directors that is approving the bonus payouts in the first place.. Oh, and many of these places incurred operating and net losses when the payouts were made.

jcwit
February 27, 2012, 03:11 PM
Especially enlightening since, if you did show up like that, you'd probably end up shooting some Wolf or Eley through somebody's match rifle, just to show you what a rifle and ammo set up to compete in that game can do.

Just sayin'. I can't remember the last time I admired someone's gun at the range and wasn't offered a chance to put a few rounds through it, whether it was a match rifle or a machine gun.



Maybe, Maybe not. Check out the responses from this current thread on this site

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?81759-Where-Have-All-The-Shooters-Gone

Might get a little enlightment as one gets into the posts.

hang fire
February 27, 2012, 03:28 PM
Is the shooting experience being priced into Elitism?

Nope, that is why the Russians made 17 million Mosin Nagants and are shipping them to the US to be sold cheap.

leadcounsel
February 27, 2012, 03:35 PM
Is shooting only for the elite?

Nope.

In the "wild west" a person would probably be rare to own more than a couple of guns and a couple boxes of ammo. Shooting for pleasure was probably quite rare.

In the mid-20th Century, gun collecters were probably not common also. The average gun owner would likely have a few guns.

Today, there are probably more gun companies than ever, and among them are the some of best manufactured guns in history - and while they may lack hand-fitted parts they are incredibly reliable, rugged, and affordable. An average person can buy a quality handgun, shotgun or rifle on a few days' wages. I commonly see quality used shotguns for $200, and mainstream (Glock, XD, M&P, CZ) handguns for $450, etc. Also, with C&R licenses, you can still get high quality C&R guns for still pretty cheap.

I would venture that here are more guns, more gun owners, and more guns per person now in the US than ever! Most gun owners I know have more than just a few guns.

And while we are feeling the sting of pricey ammo, I still think that it's affordable if you use it wisely and train appropriately. And you just have to stretch your dollar. Save your brass. Buy in bulk. Buy surplus ammo.

So, no, shooting is still an inexpensive pasttime.

Compare that to other "hobbies" folks spend their money on.

I am amazed at how in this "terrible economy" that every time I go somewhere, or watch something on TV, all of the malls are full of shoppers, the strip malls are full of cars, the airport parking lots are full, sport event seats are at capacity, the superbowl was full, etc. I'm not seeing that Americans are "suffering" from a bad economy. Who exactly is sacrificing and staying home???

Every buy a smelly candle!? $20 each! For wax!!!
Gas is nearing $4/gallon in my location
Womens shoes!!! OMG
Womens purses!!! Sticker shock!!!
Hot Yoga is $1000 a year.
A single Pro Sport ticket is in the $50+ range for a decent seat, and quickly go into the $100+ range. Throw in nachos, a few beers, and parking and you're into a SINGLE game with average seats (which is free on TV) for $100+. Season tickets cost several thousand dollars.
Gym memberships are easily $30-100 a month
Movie theater - a single movie is around $10-15 (I haven't gone in years). My friend took his family of 5 to the theater. It was over $100 for tickets!!! They smuggled their snacks in. But if you can wait until it comes out on video is much more affordable; I buy "old" DVDs for between $1-5 each.
Vegas - more popular than ever.

JShirley
February 27, 2012, 03:58 PM
Someone needs to find an inflation calculator and put in the price of a few guns from past years and calculate them to today's prices and see what comes out. That will be be the closest thing to facts we will have in this thread and I'll bet it will be interesting.


Well, SKSs have gone up, and Glocks have gone down.

(1988 SKS- $75
1996 Glock- $550)

John

tnelson31
February 27, 2012, 04:32 PM
Maybe, Maybe not. Check out the responses from this current thread on this site

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?81759-Where-Have-All-The-Shooters-Gone

Might get a little enlightment as one gets into the posts.
I read a couple of pages of that thread, mirrors this one but went off a bit.

It is hard for me to categorize types of shooting as good or bad. I know what I like, and I do it. (I shoot paper mostly.) I do not have the patience to bulls-eye shoot with my pistols, but I want to be accurate.

What if the goal is to have a controlled explosion in my hand and have the end result appear down range?

My only other thought is: How much thought crime there is in school pertaining to guns?

macadore
February 27, 2012, 04:49 PM
Anything that gets people interested in firearms is good. Plinking, collecting, or any other legal activity. The more the merrier. Anything that prevents that is bad. Snobbery is bad.

hotwheels
February 28, 2012, 07:57 AM
Read through this thread, and the thing that stuck with me is the comment on the first page about anyone being under 45 being that man's kid and being spoiled.

Sorry, Pops, but you're not my old man, and I paid for every gun, every bullet, and every mag I own, so I'm not spoiled, thank you very much.

Some people complain about not being able to have hobbies. These are the same people with just high school educations with jobs that are prone to layoffs, and 4 children they had while in their 20s.

Versus, say, a person with graduate degrees, a high end job, single, and investing 50% of their income...that person can buy whatever gun he wants each month.

It's all about choices.
While I may agree with your statement to some degree, I also understand the other gentleman's point of view, there are many more people out there working on an income that does not allow 50 % investment , you need to be aware of that fact and respect it. I myself have done very well for myself, however if it was'nt for the sacrifice of my father a WW2 vet who returned after the war and struggled to find and maintain an income that he could raise his family on, I would not be where I am today.

BigG
February 28, 2012, 11:19 AM
Almost anything worth doing costs plenty. It's always been that way. You're just noticing, huh?

22-rimfire
February 28, 2012, 12:19 PM
Almost anything worth doing costs plenty. It's always been that way. You're just noticing, huh?

But this is not Elitism. Active participation in most hobbies costs a fair amount. But we are not forced to participate. People should do what they believe they can afford to do.

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 28, 2012, 01:10 PM
Machines guns yes but normal shooting no. I'm just a College student and yet I can afford ammo to go shooting. Not as often as I would like but enough to get by with centerfire and rimfire is a good filler round for when I can't shoot centerfire.

22-rimfire
February 28, 2012, 09:12 PM
I had more money to spend when I was in college than years later after I entered the real world. The difference is responsibility and essentially a buildup of expenses.

I choose to shoot 22 rimfires a lot. But it's fun to shoot the larger stuff too.

exavid
February 28, 2012, 09:28 PM
I don't think guns or ammo is any higher priced compared to average wages now or back in the '50s. A new car in the mid 50s cost $2000-2500 or about one tenth of what it does now. I remember a Ruger MK1 was priced at $36.50at that time or about one tenth of what it costs now. A three bedroom house in those days cost my folks $8500 and they had to really scrimp and save to be able to buy it. That house right now is listed on Zillow for $96,000 now even with the real estate. It's not so much things are getting more expensive but the dollar is becoming worth a lot less over time due to inflation.

exavid
February 28, 2012, 10:11 PM
Here, ya go: http://146.142.4.24/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
Glocks have an interesting pricing structure. The initial marketing of the Glock pistol in the US was done at a lot higher price than Anton Glock intended. He was convinced by the US marketers that introducing the gun at a low price that gave Glock a reasonable profit would make people think it was a cheap gun like a Saturday Night Special. So the intitial price was higher than it needed to be. The gun was very popular partially because Glock sold the guns pretty reasonably to US police agencies and partially because they were a new thing being the first poly pistol sold here in any number. That left them a pretty good cushion to lower the price as needed once they became common and the demand slackened. That kind of thing happens with a lot of stuff, look at Ruger's introduction of the LCP and other newer poly pistols. The original price was actually the MSRP but within a very short time they were selling much lower and now are well below $300.

HoosierQ
February 29, 2012, 10:54 AM
At worst, maybe stuff like sporting clays and maybe even 3-gun type stuff.

Let's face it, for the vast majority of the people in this country, "shooting sports" is squirrel hunting in the fall, some deer hunting, maybe, like me, going to the range during the summer with the fellas and shooting some. Last time I went to the range I went with 6 or 8 guys, I maybe shot 40 rounds (through probably 7 or 8 guns) and had a blast. Helped a guy zero in his Eotech, sharpened the guys' knives (that's my niche in the group), shot a .300 Wetherby Magnum that a guy has, and in general puttered about with the gang as we all shot rifles and pistols.

So, no, shooting is not becoming elitist.

moxie
February 29, 2012, 01:11 PM
Give me a break! Shooting is more expensive than it used to be. So stipulated. Maybe. But, as hobbies go, it's pretty inexpensive compared to scuba diving, skiing (snow or water), motorcycling (priced a new Harley lately?), motorcycle or car racing, etc. So where's the elitism? I guess reading costs less, if you don't do much of it and you use the library. Be happy with what you can afford. Strive to do more and better. Don't covet.

oneounceload
February 29, 2012, 04:14 PM
look at Ruger's introduction of the LCP and other newer poly pistols. The original price was actually the MSRP but within a very short time they were selling much lower and now are well below $300.

Not around here, and no longer at Bud's - even they are at $300, while gander is now $349, a jump of $10 or so for both companies.

Shooting can be as cheap as you want it to be - an old .22 rifle and a bulk pack of ammo for $50 to a custom shotgun at over $100,000. Neither is above the other if whatever is owned is within the budget of the person doing it

JohnBT
February 29, 2012, 05:45 PM
I want to be an elitest shooter, I deserve it, but not this elitest...

Membership prices for the new indoor range opening in March. Guess which one I've signed up for. (No hourly fees for members.)

1. $100 initiation fee and $34.95 per month.

But if you want access to the upstairs lounge and private range...

2. $2500 down and $200 per month.


www.colonialshooting.com/content/membership-information

You know, if I gave up my car, or internet/cable package, I could afford it, but I'd have to walk the 2 miles to the range. Or I could ride the bus almost all the way there. How elite would riding the city bus be?

Larry Ashcraft
February 29, 2012, 06:35 PM
At worst, maybe stuff like sporting clays and maybe even 3-gun type stuff.
Not really. A round of Sporting Clays runs about $50 with ammo. Pretty cheap couple of hours entertainment.

As said many times above, considering inflation, shooting is still a bargain compared to a lot of pastimes.

mgmorden
February 29, 2012, 07:25 PM
I want to be an elitest shooter, I deserve it, but not this elitest...

Membership prices for the new indoor range opening in March. Guess which one I've signed up for. (No hourly fees for members.)

1. $100 initiation fee and $34.95 per month.

But if you want access to the upstairs lounge and private range...

2. $2500 down and $200 per month.

Holy moly. One thing good about the local big gunshop - their prices on guns are insane, but their range membership?

$125 per year . . . . that's it. If you're a member you go in and shoot as much as you want as often as you want without paying any fees (you can buy targets from them for $1 each if you want, or you can hang your own). That also includes a t-shirt, hat, and unlimited use of their range rental guns so long as you buy the ammo from them (and they've got just about anything you can imagine to rent. they even rent full-autos, though the full-auto guns cost extra even for members).

If you don't want to join as a member it's $5 per trip which covers the whole day - no hourly charges or anything.

They run 15 15-yard stalls and 10 25-yard stalls.

jmr40
February 29, 2012, 11:11 PM
In 1974 I bought my 1st rifle centerfire rifle. Paid $250 for a Remington 700 ADL, a cheap Bushnell scope, mounts, sling, and a box of ammo. I was in high school working at a minimum wage job, $1.90/hour. I figure it took me 131.5 hours of work to buy that gun, scope, etc.

At todays minimum wage 131.5 hours would earn me just under $1,000. Guns and shooting are cheaper than ever relatively speaking.

bpk1
March 1, 2012, 01:01 AM
That $1,000 would buy you a mid-level AR now, with no optics, sling, or ammo (I'm choosing the AR because it's a very popular platform currently). So if that's what your opinion is based on, I must disagree.

jcwit
March 1, 2012, 01:32 PM
I NEVER worked for minimum wage.

Pilot
March 1, 2012, 01:47 PM
As said many times above, considering inflation, shooting is still a bargain compared to a lot of pastimes.


I would have to agree, especially if you reload and shoot .22's. Just saw this report where actual infaltion is really at 8% not 3.1%. I would have to agree after filling up my car with gas, then going to the grocery store. :uhoh:

Forget the modest 3.1 percent rise in the Consumer Price Index, the government's widely used measure of inflation. Everyday prices are up some 8 percent over the past year, according to the American Institute for Economic Research.

The not-for-profit research group measures inflation without looking at the big, one-time purchases that can skew the numbers. That means they don't look at the price of houses, furniture, appliances, cars, or computers. Instead, AIER focuses on Americans' typical daily purchases, such as food, gasoline, child care, prescription drugs, phone and television service, and other household products.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-57387655/inflation-not-as-low-as-you-think/


So when you get sticker shock at new gun prices or those reloading components start to add up, remember, things are going up and we always pay in the end.

jmr40
March 1, 2012, 04:28 PM
That $1,000 would buy you a mid-level AR now, with no optics, sling, or ammo (I'm choosing the AR because it's a very popular platform currently). So if that's what your opinion is based on, I must disagree.

In 1974 $250 bought me a budget rifle, cheap scope, mounts, a sling, and 1 box of ammo. Working the same # of hours at minimum wage in 2012 would earn me almost $1,000. I can buy a BETTER rifle, much better scope and several boxes of ammo and have nearly 1/2 my money left over.

Weatherby Vanguard-$350
Redfield Revolution Scope-$150
Sling-$15
3 boxes Remington Corelokt ammo-$60
Talley Lightweight mounts -$40
Total-$615

If you want to compare AR's we can play that game too. In 1974 a Colt AR-15 sold for around $700-$800. In 2012 you can buy the same rifle for right at $1,000. Since minimum wage has almost quadrupled since 1974 a Colt AR should be selling for $2800-$3200 if it were keeping pace.

Certaindeaf
March 1, 2012, 04:43 PM
No.

Heck, just last year I shot a Grey Poupon jar (it still had a smidge in it!) with my Hi-Point!

Pow, yo!

oneounceload
March 1, 2012, 04:46 PM
Since minimum wage has almost quadrupled since 1974 a Colt AR should be selling for $2800-$3200 if it were keeping pace.

Sorry, but you are confusing increases in minimum wage with inflation - the two are not the same and cannot be compared to each other. use one of the inflation calculators found on the web for a better comparison

22-rimfire
March 1, 2012, 05:23 PM
A case of good target 22 ammo costs more now than a new car did in the 1950's. Inflation...
I NEVER worked for minimum wage.

I wish I could say that, but I paid for college working minimum wage in a factory. When I graduated, I owed my Dad $1000 because he wanted me to have a little more money available my senior year than previous years. Paid him back a couple months after I graduated.

mgmorden
March 1, 2012, 07:41 PM
Since minimum wage has almost quadrupled since 1974 a Colt AR should be selling for $2800-$3200 if it were keeping pace.
Sorry, but you are confusing increases in minimum wage with inflation - the two are not the same and cannot be compared to each other. use one of the inflation calculators found on the web for a better comparison

Even if you use an inflation calculator, he's not that far off.

$700-800 in 1974 dollars becomes $3060 - $3497 in 2010 dollars (which is as high as the inflation calculator went).

ntex2000
March 10, 2012, 09:18 PM
Yes, there is cheap ammo out there like Silver Bear and TulAmmo, but you get what you pay for because the groups they shoot are about 4 times larger than quality ammo. I'm talking about $6 to $8 a box for .308. American Eagle .308 is about $12 and it's okay, but the higher quality .308 at $30 a box is ridiculous, because even this higher quality ammo won't print groups better than what you can load your own, even if you use the lower cost components. I started reloading 300 RUM for my brother because a box of 20 was costing him almost $60.

At one time I heard there is a federal tax built in to each box of ammo which causes the price to be higher. Anyone know if this is true?

JohnBT
March 10, 2012, 09:39 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman-Robertson_Federal_Aid_in_Wildlife_Restoration_Act

The Pittman-Roberstson act of 1937 places an 11% tax on guns and ammo. For instance, if you purchase all the parts for a custom gunsmith to build you a gun, there's an 11% tax on the firearm you had built. And then maybe you will pay sales tax.

"Plans for what to do with the money must be submitted to and approved by the Secretary of the Interior.[6] Acceptable options include research, surveys, management of wildlife and/or habitat and acquisition or lease of land, among other things"

It's not all spent on hunting and target shooting. You could say we are paying for some things for the canoe paddlers and bird watchers to use.

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