Affordable O/Us - New CZ Redhead Target


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40SWHero51
February 23, 2012, 09:06 PM
Just saw the new CZ O/U - "Redhead Target". Looks great - especially the PRICE TAG! I just discovered how much I love Trap - my wife took me when she found a deal on LivingSocial and I was immediately smitten. I had never shot Trap before - just Skeet a few times when I was younger. I forgot how much I love shotguns.

My stomach churns when I see the prices of O/Us - I want an O/U, I like the look and feel, but they are pricey for a sport I am just getting into.

So - I am looking at the following O/Us - please let me know your thoughts regarding which one is worth it's weight in gold, for a beginner:

1. CZ Redhead Target = $1200
2. Stoeger Condor Competition = $600
3. Winchester 101 Sporting = $1500
4. Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon or White Onyx = $2000+ (My absolute limit)

I am leaning towards the CZ after reading about the features for the price and reading all the CZ lover posts, albeit for handguns. I'd like to hear your thoughts...

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barnbwt
February 23, 2012, 09:29 PM
Don't forget to take a look around for lingering Franchi Diamonds/Rennaisance's. I don't think they are making them anymore since they undercut Benelli, and appear to be. I have a O/U 12ga Diamond Elite (Dick's Sporting Goods Special) that has been fantastic for the first several hundred rounds so far. I only wish my range had faster throwers, doubles are almost too easy:D. It sounds like the Rennaisance, especially, got glowing reviews, though I never had the opportunity to check one out. The Diamonds are just below the 1000$ price point, and the Rennaisance were around 1200$

TCB

DaleCooper51
February 23, 2012, 09:30 PM
Are you only going to shoot trap singles or are other games (skeet, sporting, 5-stand etc.) in your future? If your primary focus is trap, why not get a trap gun like the BT99? It is a single barrel gun set up for trap. A nice used one can be had in the $700 - $800 range and is a heck of a gun.

If there are other games or trap doubles and you were set on an O/U, the only one listed I would get is the Beretta. While these guns may be on your short list, I would suggest shooting as many different guns as you can before making a sizable investment. You may find that you like something completely different after spending some time on the line. A properly shimmed Wingmaster makes a fine first trap gun and will get you shooting enough to know what you like.

oneounceload
February 23, 2012, 09:35 PM
Of those 4, the Beretta will hold up the longest and have the best resale value down the road - you may still have to get the stock properly fitted, but that would be the case in any event. Remember, the price of the gun is nothing compared to the cost of ammo and targets, so you might as well get a decent gun that will hold up to the use you intend to shoot. The others do not have the longevity of the Beretta.

Do not confuse CZ pistols which they make with the shotguns which they have made for them in Turkey by Huglu.

The BT-99 is a great gun ...IF you only intend to shoot American trap singles - for anything else, it is pointless as you have no second shot

40SWHero51
February 23, 2012, 09:47 PM
I would like to shoot other clay sports as well. There's a few different guns I can rent at the range. I will try some others - I shot the White Onyx originally.

interlock
February 24, 2012, 03:27 AM
the beretta is the best value of all of them shot guns. I would whole heartedly recomend it. The beretta will be good for you and your son/daughter. decent quality at a reasonable price.

drsfmd
February 24, 2012, 09:44 AM
A used Browning or Beretta is your best bet. Avoid the cheap imports from Brazil, Turkey, and Russia... all are poor quality.

Rancho Relaxo
February 24, 2012, 09:58 AM
I absolutely love CZ's rifles and pistols. Their shotguns are not made in house, but by a Turkish company (unless things have changed recently). I would pass on the CZ and look for a used SKB or even an auto. I learned to shoot trap with a first year of production Remington 1100 with a 30" barrel and a fixed choke that patterned extra full. I got a few 25s and a 50 straight with it before I decided that I "needed" an O/U for skeet and bought an SKB sporting clays 12ga.

drsfmd
February 24, 2012, 10:11 AM
Their shotguns are not made in house, but by a Turkish company (unless things have changed recently).

The shotguns are made by Huglu in Turkey, and aside from a few diehard fans are universally dismissed as inferior product. Some can't make it through a single box of shells without breaking. There's a guy on shotgunworld who has run nearly 20,000 rounds through his with no real problems, but he's the exception not the rule (and frankly, 20,000 shells is a drop in the bucket to a serious clays shooter)

The bottom line is that good O/U's are expensive. If the price of a CZ is the budget you have to work with, you're better off buying a quality autoloader-- it will last longer and serve you better.

Manny
February 24, 2012, 10:33 AM
I'm in the same boat as you, shot sporting clays for the first time on a work outing and had a blast! I've got a Browning Cynergy Classic Field in layaway at Gander Mt, a little over $1400 with tax on clearance, plus another $100 rebate from Browning until June. It felt the best to me of the ones I tried and has very good reviews. The Beretta was also highly recommended but was out of my price range.

Mark8252
February 24, 2012, 09:04 PM
I think the CZ is a good choice.
My preference for skeet is a Remington 870 Wingmaster 20 ga pump shotgun.
I like the additional challenge of a pump. Much cheaper than a O/U too.

Crunchy Frog
February 24, 2012, 10:08 PM
The shotgunners say "Browning or Beretta". If you can't afford a new one, find a used one, even if it's not the ideal configuration for your chosen "game" and then work up later on.

I think there is some wisdom here. When I started, I wanted a Cynergy Sporting but being a little short on cash I watched for a deal and found a used Beretta 686 Essential. It's a field gun with 26" barrels but I bought some two inch extended chokes for trap/5 stand/sporting clays. It shoots better than I do and eventually I might sell it and buy a gun with all the features I want. I bet I can sell it for about what I have in it, or maybe I'll keep it as a "loaner" or "backup".

If I had to have a brand other than a Browning or Beretta I might take a chance on the CZ. Yes, they are made in Turkey but CZ-USA has pretty good customer service. Just expect that you will lose a chunk of what you spend on it if you ever want to "move up".

au_prospector
February 24, 2012, 10:29 PM
I own a shotgun made by Huglu.
CZ shotguns are made by Huglu.
My gunsmith smiles at my Huglu.
Cause he knows my Huglu means more $yooohooo$.
Feed a gunsmith, buy the Huglu.

armoredman
February 24, 2012, 10:57 PM
I will have a CZ branded Huglu shotgun soon, and will see how well it does. :) Of course, it's the 712 autoloader, not the Ringneck or other doubles, etc. CZ customer service is excellent, and I am hoping I once again won't need it, as the 712 was redesigned. We'll see.
Buy what fits you best and what in your heart you feel you can trust.

40SWHero51
February 25, 2012, 07:40 PM
Lots to think about - I don't see many SKBs or Berettas on gunbroker or in the stores. I am having a pretty decent time finding a quality used O/U. I really would like own a quality weapon - so, will continue to see what I can find out there. Just itchin' to hang that smoke again!

oneounceload
February 25, 2012, 07:52 PM
You won't find too many SKBs in the new gun section as they have been recently discontinued by their Japaneses maker, but they are still available and great guns and parts and service are also available

drsfmd
February 25, 2012, 08:18 PM
You won't find too many SKBs in the new gun section as they have been recently discontinued by their Japaneses maker

Correction... not discontinued. The manufacturer went out of business completely, about 2.5 years ago.

The importer here in the US bought up the remaining parts and unsold guns, but who knows how long they will manage to hang on with no new product. Supposedly they were shopping for a new manufacturer, but it's been a couple of years that they have been saying that now, and I think if it was going to happen it would have.

oneounceload
February 25, 2012, 09:19 PM
Correct dr.,, but my understanding is that the original maker decided that auto parts were more profitable
Nevertheless,
The US importer in Omaha has many years of parts and is still trying to find someone to be a maker.....sounds like a no brainier to me for folks in the rust belt to restart an assembly plant

ProfT
July 22, 2012, 08:10 AM
I have worked at a sporting clay, skeet, trap range for 11 years. I belong to two local trap/skeet ranges as well. In our shop we currently have 31 shotguns for rent. On a busy , summer week, one of our guns can easily spit out 8,000 rounds. 9 of our guns are CZ/Huglus. NONE of the CZs have been retired yet, and I have had to retire A LOT of guns. CZs are one of the MOST RELIABLE guns in our shop. I now buy and smith all shotguns in our shop. We purchased 4 guns in March 2011. 2 were CZ 912s. The CZs were half the price of the other 2. The CZs have more rounds through them and are both scheduled for rent at 10:00am today. The other 2 guns are now used for parts. I am not going to mention any other brand out of respect. I personally own a few guns. One was presented to me from the owner of our range as a 10 year employee gift. It was a $3,800 gun. It is VERY nice, but on any given day when I am shooting trap competition, hand me my CZ Redhead target.

Walking Dead
July 22, 2012, 09:27 AM
I'd take a look at the Tristars.
http://www.tristararms.com/over-under-field-shotguns.php

MCgunner
July 22, 2012, 08:04 PM
My buddy's CZ O/U has been doing fine for three dove seasons now. He loves the thing and, frankly, it impresses me, too. I think a lot of the bashing of these Turkish guns is because they're not expensive, therefore the snobs will bash. I don't own one, haven't lived with one, just an observation because my best buddy's has been fantastic. It's also a pretty sharp lookin' shotgun.

I'm really not lookin' right now for an O/U, which I don't own an example of. If i get one in the future, I'm sorta swayed by the Browning Cynergy. I like Brownings and don't own one. Go figure. They're expensive, why I don't own one, yet.

I have checked out the Stoegers. I'll pass on those, thanks. They don't fit me worth a toot and I want something pretty if I get an O/U. :D Of the OP's choices, I'd pick the Winchester.

drsfmd
July 22, 2012, 08:09 PM
I think a lot of the bashing of these Turkish guns is because they're not expensive, therefore the snobs will bash.

Or because they are poorly made, with poorly regulated barrels and are subject to frequent breakages.

But you go on believing that it's because they aren't expensive.

MCgunner
July 22, 2012, 08:15 PM
Or because they are poorly made, with poorly regulated barrels and are subject to frequent breakages.

The ONLY CZ I have experience with refutes those charges, but I realize it's a sample of one. The snobs bash Baikal, too, but I find mine very durable and quite well regulated even though it's a SxS which is supposed to be impossible to regulate for under 50K dollars, according to all the netspirts.:rolleyes:

oneounceload
July 22, 2012, 08:26 PM
McG - lots of companies can put two sewer pipes on a 2X4 and call it a SxS, and technically, they would be correct - but it wouldn't handle like a finely crafted SxS Game Gun - there is quite a difference, and it is one that really has to be handled and felt as it is slightly unique to each person - but once you have had that experience, you will begin to understand what some of us have been saying.

It isn't that the Turks can't build decent guns - they most assuredly can and have in a variety of gun types. However, in trying to build to the current price point, some of the quality issues still exist. While the Uts group who built the S&W did a great job, the gun wasn't priced at Huglu CZ prices. It was the poor marketing of S&W and Kimber combined with the generic term of Huglu guns which is also a region/town and not just a factory that killed the guns.

IF you really want a CZ, then at least get the DeHaan. Mark brings them in and does all the finishing and fine tuning the company didn't do originally - and you'll get nicer wood too.

http://www.dhshotguns.com/

rule303
July 22, 2012, 09:20 PM
I have sold more than my fair share of Turkish shotguns. They are improving, and the Huglu guns handle very well, and look decent. IMO they would be a good choice for a hunting gun, or occasional clays shooting, but they just aren't going to hold up to 10's of thousands of rounds. If you have your heart set on an O/U for serious target shooting, swallow hard and just buy the Beretta, or Browning.

MCgunner
July 22, 2012, 09:38 PM
Well, a 2K shotgun is over a month's income for me. I'll continue to delude myself that my Spartan handles well enough to shoot 50 percent on doves (it has when I did my part) and you, oneounce, can continue to delude yourself that a 60K gun is worth the cost. :D

I'll be on social security soon. I'm going to let my gubment check buy me a Browning or Winchester. Well, it'll take 2 gubment checks, but you get the point. :D Gotta spend it before social security goes bankrupt, which won't be too long sounds like, but that's another subject. :rolleyes:

hAkron
July 23, 2012, 07:21 AM
I have a CZ 912 semi-auto shotgun that I use for trap. It was cinexpensive, it fits me well, and it looks great. On the downside, after 100 shells I do have to give it a quick cleaning or it starts to get finicky. CZs (Huglu) shotguns are not generally bad guns for the money, but they are also not without their quirks.

Also, for trap, my $220 Mossberg 500 from Walmart shoots as well as anything else ive shot.

oneounceload
July 23, 2012, 08:34 AM
oneounce, can continue to delude yourself that a 60K gun is worth the cost.

Actually, I was thinking of an Uggie - base model is about $1350 or so - well-made Spanish gun. I also own a S&W Elite Gold Turkish gun - half price at $1200 - another excellent gun; 60K is out of my price range as well - but I still look at them in the catalogs........ ;)

ATLDave
July 23, 2012, 04:43 PM
I was in the same position about a year ago, though I was interested in skeet, not trap. I finally was persuaded to go for one of the B-guns (I went Beretta), and I have not regretted it.

As others have noted, double-barreled shotguns are not all that amenable to inexpensive manufacturing. I toyed with the idea of Yildiz, Huglu, Stoegger, and whatever the name of the Russian one that EAA imports is, and then decided to suck it up.

BTW, the "pro shop" down at the Wolf Creek range actually has good prices on Berettas... I was surprised, but they beat the other local retailers and online stuff (once you figured in an FAA transfer fee and shipping for online, it wasn't even close).

SHR970
July 23, 2012, 07:31 PM
Amazing how the conversation always ends up being B brand or junk.

Lanbers aren't one of the B&B brands but they do alright. So do some of the "off" Italian brands like the FAIR (aka Verona), Fausti, Fabarm.

This article may be about 8 years old but it is still a good one: Shotgunworld crosslink (http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=253741)

19-3Ben
July 23, 2012, 08:06 PM
I learned to shoot trap with a first year of production Remington 1100 with a 30" barrel and a fixed choke that patterned extra full.

I also learned trap and skeet shooting on an 1100. Nothing wrong with them, and you can get a nice used one for well under your budget. Save the rest of the money to spend it on lots and lots of ammo!!!

Edit to add:
This (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=296838465) for example.
Or This. (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=297767644)

oneounceload
July 23, 2012, 09:05 PM
Amazing how the conversation always ends up being B brand or junk.

Lanbers aren't one of the B&B brands but they do alright. So do some of the "off" Italian brands like the FAIR (aka Verona), Fausti, Fabarm.

Fausti makes guns to various price points, and their high-end guns are very well made. Fabarms, now part of Cesar Guerini, currently markets one of the most expensive semi shotguns on the market today.

FAIR is one of the Rizzini family guns companies; Cesar Guerini is B Rizzini and Fausti is aligned with E Rizzini - all make decent guns in their respective price points, and are much better made and handle better than the garbage coming from Russia and China and Brazil

ATLDave
July 24, 2012, 05:35 PM
Amazing how the conversation always ends up being B brand or junk.

I don't think anyone said "B brand or junk." I merely said that I had been persuaded to buy a Beretta and did not regret it. The B guns are readily available and are high-quality guns that will work, endure, point well, etc. There are obviously more exotic and expensive ones. And there are cheaper ones, which can have their uses. My dad has a Browning OU, but he's also got a Stoeger, which is perfectly suitable for field work.

But the OP said he was interested in getting into trap. If he's going to hang out at the range and bang out hundreds of shots in a single day, and thousands a year for several years, there's a lot to be said for guns with designs that have been proven to take the abuse, and for which there will always be spare parts and knowledgeable gunsmiths.

SHR970
July 24, 2012, 06:36 PM
ATLDave:

I did not single ANYONE out. I count at least 5 different posters that went straight to the B brands. Little was given in the way to alternatives that may make the OP's price point AND would provide good service. It is as though it is either B brands or Junk....no middle ground.

I have seen CZ quality looking for a 410 O/U, I bought a Verona 702 instead (and got a screaming deal to boot :D). That Verona is a Fabbrica Armi Isidoro Rizzini; it isn't a Beretta but it is still a quality gun. I added that to my matching 12 and 20 Fabarms Silver Lions.

But the OP said he was interested in getting into trap. If he's going to hang out at the range and bang out hundreds of shots in a single day, and thousands a year for several years, there's a lot to be said for guns with designs that have been proven to take the abuse, and for which there will always be spare parts and knowledgeable gunsmiths.

A valid point, but even the well known SKB went under. And as far as used go, a novice could get a not too heavily used gun or one that looks pretty but has had the stuffing already kicked out of it and not even know the difference. Maybe you would like to post a buyer's guide on how to tell the not so knowledgeable what to look for so they don't get hosed.

Add: You can gat a Win 101 from CDNN right now for $1100; although in a 26" barrel. They're made by FN...guess who makes the Browning Superposed? I'm willing to bet it would hold up pretty nicely, have parts available for a while, and smiths that know how to work it. And Wseatherby doesn't make shotguns, they have them made for them. My point is that there are other good options out there.

drsfmd
July 24, 2012, 06:48 PM
ATLDave:

I did not single ANYONE out. I count at least 5 different posters that went straight to the B brands. Little was given in the way to alternatives that may make the OP's price point AND would provide good service. It is as though it is either B brands or Junk....no middle ground.

You might not like it, but you made a fairly accurate statement. Browning, Beretta, and SKB are generally considered to be the low end of acceptable quality by serious shotgunners. Below that you get off brands that often have reputations for breaking, are hard to find parts and service for, and are quickly orphaned by their importers.

CZ seems to be trying hard, but they still have a long way to go before they are even in the same game as the B guns, much less on a level playing field.

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