What's all the fuss over "Cam Over"?


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James2
February 24, 2012, 12:58 PM
I believe the term refers to the press ram reaching full up and the lever then goes over center and the ram starts back down. At some point, just over dead center, the lever hits a stop so the lever can go no further. Is this correct to your thinking?

Well if so, I suggest the cam over point is simply full up for the ram. So what if the lever stops dead center or goes slightly over, the ram cannot go any higher than dead center whether it cams over or not. So why does it even matter?

Why all the fuss over something that makes absolutely no difference?

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R.W.Dale
February 24, 2012, 01:08 PM
It matters because that cam over point is where you have the greatest mechanical advantage.

This is important because with difficult to resize cases even the strongest presses will flex upward away from the ram ever so slightly. So if you're not camming the press over against the shellholder and die at the very top of its stroke removing all mechanical play in the system you can very well end up with improperly sized cases.

In short camming over against the die removes the variable of sizing difficulty from impacting how much sizing you actually get.

posted via tapatalk using android.

rcmodel
February 24, 2012, 01:24 PM
It also matters here on THR when answering newby reloader questions.

Telling someone to screw the sizing die down until the ram stops, is just asking for them to screw the die down until it stops, and have the ram bumping it before full travel/cam-over is reached.

Or else they screw the die down to the shell holder with the ram all the way up, and then wonder why they can't chamber the .300 Whizzem after resizing it.

Adjusting the die for cam-over insures it is set to take all the linkage slop & press frame flex out, and that it is really pushing the case shoulder back where it came from.

There can be several thousandths difference in a sized case between where the handle stop stops the ram, and where cam-over stops the ram.

rc

fguffey
February 24, 2012, 01:36 PM
Sugarmaker, again, It is not fair, but, I ask again, if the ROCK CHUCKER cams over’ how much???? in thousands, I have deflection gages, strain gages, in reloading that is just name dropping I understand. RCBS makes a great press, if I thought it had a fault I would build a set of tools that would identify a/the problem.

Mass Hysteria, it happened when someone with a camera recorded the operation of a RCBS press with out a die and or shell holder, to everyone's horror the ram jumped forward at the top of the stroke and then, the reloading forums took on the nature of MASS HYSTERIA, and then blamed the Chinese, and totally disregarded my advise, “THE Rock Chucker in the video did not cam over” it jammed over, crammed over, etc, but, what ever it did, it did not cam over.

F. Guffey

On the light side, a friend, shooter, reloader builder of bench rest type rifles and pistols had a problem, I gathered up a few tools, dies and etc. and went for a visit, he is one of the few people I know that has more presses than I, for heavy work he has a modified A2 RCBS, the A2 RCBS is a cam over press.

I fixed his problem, when someone builds a rifle that shoots one hold groups it is difficult to impossible to find the problem, again those things do not lock me up. And I assured him nothing I did would improve accuracy.



Then there are bumpers, “I bump my shoulder .002 etc..” The old presses were designed to bump, I ask those that claim their press ‘bumps’ “by how much, how much when measured in thousands???? and they respond with “My press bumps”.

Anyhow , it has gotten talked to death, seems, in my opinion, ones opinion is more important to them than giving credit to the design or the person that designed it.

Back to bump, the cam over when adjusted was a control, when adjusting the die for sizing the ram was raised, the die was adjusted to the shell holder, impossible to grasp, but the difference between top dead center and the ram height after top dead center was the first adjustment before the proverbial 1/4 turn, the difference between the two height was “BUMP”. Now? bump is something reloaders do, and I find impossible, My cases have a tapper, the tapper forms a cone, somewhere out their beyond the cone is an apex, meaning I can not get my die to contact the shoulder without contacting the taper of the case body, shoulder and neck all at the same time, back to adjusting the press to bump.

James2
February 24, 2012, 01:47 PM
Adjusting the die for cam-over insures it is set to take all the linkage slop & press frame flex out, and that it is really pushing the case shoulder back where it came from.

I further suggest that if the shell holder is against the die, you can push the casing no further into the die whether it cams over or not. Nor does it matter how much weight you put on the handle, once that shell holder touches that is all you get.

Yes, you can adjust the die down until you get some resistance at cam over, but all that does is put undue stress on the press. Once that shell holder touches the die with a casing actually in the die, you can't size a casing any more than that. Unless you think you think you can actually crush either the shell holder or die. ??? Believe me when you are sizing cases the " linkage slop & press frame flex" (your words) are already taken out because of the resistance.

R.W.Dale
February 24, 2012, 01:52 PM
I further suggest that if the shell holder is against the die, you can push the casing no further into the die whether it cams over or not. Nor does it matter how much weight you put on the handle, once that shell holder touches that is all you get. Even the beefiest looking presses will flex in this manner.

Yes, you can adjust the die down until you get some resistance at cam over, but all that does is put undue stress on the press. Once that shell holder touches the die with a casing actually in the die, you can't size a casing any more than that.

And this is where you're mistaken as it does not account for the effect of several hundred lbs (wag) of upward force a case going into a sizing die vs a unloaded shellholder with the press in "neutral" condition.

When sizing the die will get pushed away from where the shellholder is in relation to the die at the top of its travel compared to not sizing anything.

posted via tapatalk using android.

rcmodel
February 24, 2012, 01:55 PM
What he said.

Frame flex while sizing changes things.

rc

Clark
February 24, 2012, 02:31 PM
March 23, 2005
Clark
I broke my Rockchucker, sent it back to RCBS, and they sent me new one with all the other stuff that didn't break.

The way I broke mine was with a Lee Collet neck sizer die.
I had it screwed in so the press was just at the top of it's stroke with the die was at the tightest.
Infinite force breaks the casting.

That was with a Lee collet neck die in 8x57mm.
The die was not adjusted correctly [my bad, but RCBS pays the bill]

RCBS did not just send me a new casting, they sent an entire new press with accessories.

A year later, the Rockchuckers got bigger where I broke mine.

I probably put less than 180 pounds of downward force on the ball on the end of the rockchucker handle.
That would probably break the new ones too.

I should correct myself. That is not infinite force. The friction keeps it finite.

bigedp51
February 24, 2012, 03:16 PM
fguffey

Now? bump is something reloaders do, and I find impossible, My cases have a tapper, the tapper forms a cone, somewhere out their beyond the cone is an apex, meaning I can not get my die to contact the shoulder without contacting the taper of the case body, shoulder and neck all at the same time, back to adjusting the press to bump.

Buy a "BUMP" die and you won't find it impossible. :rolleyes: If you have a problem with terminology and the English language you might want to find another hobby. ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7650.jpg

Long ago in high school English class our English teacher told the story of a well known 17 century British author. The well known British author was attending a play but was in bad need of a bath.

The woman seated next to him told the British author “You smell” the British author replied “No madam, you smell, I stink” :eek:

Cam over and bump do not smell or stink when used properly but misunderstanding the English language and complaining about it has an odor all its own. In other words fguffey something smells here and it isn't my reloading press.

popper
February 24, 2012, 03:57 PM
So what does the continual application of the extra 20-30# force applied to non-lubed (linkage pins) steel do after a few thou cases? And the alum alloy used in presses? Much less the threaded alum. As Fguffy says, the cam-over is about .003.

bigedp51
February 24, 2012, 04:13 PM
You could have ten different reloading presses and ten different reloaders pulling the handle and get ten different cam over readings.

In another forum a poster said he attached a click adjustable torque wrench to his press to get uniform results.

My reply was "I can't get the handle thingy to click, now what do I do?" :rolleyes:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7173.jpg

We now have a new reloading word.............torque over :rolleyes:

Hopkins
February 24, 2012, 04:23 PM
Makes me want to buy an arbor press but who makes a fl sizing die for for an arbor press? How would you get the case out of the die after wards?

rcmodel
February 24, 2012, 04:30 PM
So what does the continual application of the extra 20-30# force applied to non-lubed (linkage pins) steel do after a few thou cases? I don't know yet.

I've only been adjusting bottleneck rifle sizing dies to cam over since 1970 in my old RCBS RockChucker.

I'll let you know if I ever wear it out.
But it's very unlikely I will live that long.

rc

cfullgraf
February 24, 2012, 04:35 PM
One can see the effect of the loosemess in the press' linkage system by doing the following.

Raise the ram to the top and screw the sizing die down hard against the shell holder. lock the die down.

Now insert a case to be sized. At the top of the stroke, you will see a sliver of light between the die and the shell holder.

A torque wrench would at lease allow one to apply the same force to the ram with every stroke.

p5200
February 24, 2012, 04:40 PM
I've noticed when I reload my 9mm. rounds using once fired brass, the bullet shows a pretty good bulge in the case. When loading new brass there's no bulge at all usually. Should I be adjusting my LEE Carbide sizing die with a little cam over or, could that even be the cause of the bulge? I'm using all the dies in the 4 die set. :)

rcmodel
February 24, 2012, 04:51 PM
The 9mm has a tapered case.

With a steel die, the further down you screw the die, the more sizing it gets.

But, most carbide dies are not tapered, so if you size the neck enough, the base gets sized more then enough, and you will get what you describe.

It is actually a sign of good neck tension, and is a Good Thing, as it should totally prevent bullet set-back during feeding.

rc

p5200
February 24, 2012, 04:56 PM
Thanks for the info!

rsrocket1
February 24, 2012, 04:57 PM
If you know exatly how much the press cams over, you are OK. The problem is you don't know how much slop there is in the press so that when it's at the top of the stroke, it is no longer at the same point exerting the same pressure when under a load. On a non-cam over press, when you press with 25 pounds of force after it stops, you know that you put the same pressure on the die. You'll never know with a cam over press.

My Lee Challenger press does not cam over and I like using it for neck sizing .308 or even "partial full lenght resizing" where I use a full length resizing die to bump the shoulder back to a point less than what a full length resizing job does. I can get the feel of how much to press on it to get enough neck tension without going overboard.

My LnL AP cams over. It is not good for bolt action rifle rounds, but it is fine for straight walled pistol rounds so long as I don't have to ensure complete full length resizing of "Glocked" brass.

For pistol rounds or plinking and blasting with rifle reloads, cam over is nothing to worry about.

bigedp51
February 24, 2012, 05:02 PM
Hopkins

You can see below having .004 between the shell holder and the bottom of the full length die using headspace control shims and no hard cam over on my 40+ year old Rock Chucker press was the cause of my excessively large groups below. :rolleyes:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/May2011-a.jpg

Eat your heart out fguffey. :neener:

ranger335v
February 24, 2012, 05:02 PM
"..I suggest the cam over point is simply full up for the ram. So what if the lever stops dead center or goes slightly over, the ram cannot go any higher than dead center whether it cams over or not. So why does it even matter?"

You're absolutely correct. The press 'cams over' when we lower the lever weither or not there's die in the press. Cam-over has taken on near magical but fuzzy proportions in a lot of people's minds.


"Why all the fuss over something that makes absolutely no difference?"

Beats me. The only good thing about camming over is the tactile feedback confirming we have indeed raised the ram/case as high as it can go.

How we should set the dies is a whole different thing and that too seems to be grossly misunderstood by those who seek a rote die adjustment process they can follow without having to understand what they're doing or why.

p5200
February 24, 2012, 05:03 PM
I'm using a Forster Coax press but am not sure how much slack it has. :)

R.W.Dale
February 24, 2012, 05:15 PM
There's lots of ways to go about attaing the desired amount of case resizing

The important part is to have a means of measuring and determining the amount of shoulder setback needed and attained.


I've shot some of my best benchrest groups with cases rezized in a Lee collet neck die in a RC IV very carefully adjusted to cam over but not overload the die.

posted via tapatalk using android.

918v
February 24, 2012, 05:49 PM
I wanna restate the importance of camming over in my own special way:

When you lower the lever and raise the ram and screw the die down to touch the shell holder, you have zero clearance between the bottom of the die and the top of the shell holder.

If you assume this zero clearance will be maintained while sizing a case you are mistaken. The frame window will flex under pressure of the case going through the die. This will move the die away from the shell holder even when the lever is all the way down and the ram is as high as it can go. So you are not sizing the case as much as you are intending. Adjusting the die to cam over ensures the whole case gets sized. This is important if you have a rifle with a short chamber or if your die is short or your shell holder a bit too tall.

I don't set up my dies to cam over. I set my dies way past the cam over point. My press has enough leverage to size the whole case and I can feel the shell holder bottom out against the die. But the biggest round I load for is a 308. If I had one of those fancy magnums, I prolly would not be able to get away with it. In that circumstance I would need maximum leverage and would set up the dies to cam over.

Hopkins
February 24, 2012, 05:52 PM
I want to add that I have shot some great 100 yd groups through a chrono that indicate they wouldn't hold up at distance because of velocity spreads. Getting consistent case volumes, bullet seating and neck tension and 0 runout are ideals in pursuit of small velocity spreads.

Clark
February 24, 2012, 07:05 PM
Yes.

I have been shooting at 100 yard ranges around Seattle for 15 years, and am all full of myself over the many rifles that I can get to shoot sub moa.

The past two years I have been practicing a few days at 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards on a lonely road where I hunt.

At 400 yards in no wind, a broadside animal would be as good as dead with me shooting from a bipod.
But my 600 yard results are humbling.
There is something about 600 yard technology that is not needed for 100 yard groups.
And I do not have it yet.
I hope this does not take 10 years.

kingmt
February 24, 2012, 08:41 PM
Allow me a minute to run on a bit. Think of a rubber band & a rubber ball. If you squeeze a ball or stretch a rubber band they are under force & fight to get back to there at rest shape. Metal does this also. This is how bolts hold. A nut is used to stretch/crush the bolt to pull/shove to hold something in place. Large bolts that you can't get enough force to stretch the bolt by turning the nut requires a hydraulic cylinder to stretch the bolt then run the nut down & release the jack to allow the nut to hold the spring of the bolt.

So the question was can you get any more press after the shell holder contacts the die. The answer is yes but you need all of the leverage of the press.

My vote is for cam over.

Now to side track. Explain why I keep seeing eat your heart out fguffey.

Unless I'm taking it wrong it isn't appropriate & seems like it would be against forum rules.

GLOOB
February 24, 2012, 10:41 PM
So the question was can you get any more press after the shell holder contacts the die. The answer is yes but you need all of the leverage of the press.
Yeah, after contact, you can make the press flex more all you want, up until it breaks. What's the point?

Cam over may very well be a great way to increase the leverage of a press. Why can't we just say that?

You could get a degree in BS from reading this thread. It's painful.

gamestalker
February 25, 2012, 04:07 AM
I wasn't aware of any fuss about cam over? Is this something us old timers should be aware of? I try my best to avoid cam over, but sometimes it's just an unavoidable circumstance.

Maybe I should consider adjusting my dies so they only push the shoulders back enough to maintain proper head space.

Seriously though, cam over is simply an effect of what some presses do depending on how much adjustment is needed to properly form / size the brass for the firearm being loaded for. Cam over is by no means a determining point of adjustment which should be used as a guidline. I have an old RCBS single stage I use primarily for bottle neck resizing that doiesn't cam over at all. Just an example of how effective using cam over as a description of proper resizing die adjustment, it's not.

Walkalong
February 25, 2012, 08:24 AM
Yeah, after contact, you can make the press flex more all you want, up until it breaks. What's the point?
Yep.

"Cam over" is simply a mechanical spot where the lever action of the handle moving down stops moving the ram upwards, so that no matter how hard you push down on the handle after that point, all you will do is damage things is you crank down harder.

Blue68f100
February 25, 2012, 09:35 AM
Cam over is a term meaning the ram has gone up far as it can go and then ram starts back down. All presses I have ever looked at does this, some more than other. It's the only way to get a consistent travel upward every time. In all of the die sets I own, the instructions tell you to run the ram all the way and stop, not cam over to set the sizing die.

Like Walkalong said, continuing on after the ram as cam over does no good. Any more travel you think your getting is moving the ram down......

fguffey
February 25, 2012, 10:30 AM
Kingmt, nothing like having two standards.

More surprising to me, with all this talent, and owners of RCBS Rock Chuckers and throwing around a term like CAM-OVER, not one of them can/will measure the amount of cam over, I said the RCBS ROCK CHUCKER jams over, crams over or locks up, it matters not to me what it is called, point being, if the RC cams over, measure the amount of cam over. Then there was the video filmed at Cabala’s and the mass hysteria, not one owner of an RCBS RC came to the aid (save one) and displayed knowledge of the design and function. The jam over/cram over pushed the ram over at the top without a die and or shell holder, and again, the reloading world blamed China.

Again, I can modify a RC press to cam over, cam over would be a good thing, if there was some way to get the reloaders to understand putting a press into a 9 line bind is not necessary, for them to understand that they would have to understand there are times the case wins.

The case can win because of bad habits, the case can win when the cases ability to resist sizing exceeds the ability of the press to size the case, and that is the reason I said I can determine if the case was sized before I lower the ram.



More surprising to me, with all this talent: Before the gimmick die called bump I made forming dies from ugly die that were too cheap to pass up, ugly on the outside, great on the inside. Dies I made, like the bump die had/have case body support, again, it is not possible to form/move/bump the shoulder of a case ‘back’ without without case body support.

But, I did notice a change in definition, seems there is a movement to call jam-over, cram-over and lock up----CAM OVER.



F. Guffey

Kevin Rohrer
February 25, 2012, 10:54 AM
This topic is of interest to me as I was trying to resize 1k 7.62mm casings that had been fired in a MG. Try as I might with seven different presses (non of them being green or red/silver), I could not fully resize them and get the shoulders back enough to safely chamber in my M1A.

I measured the press flexing with a finger gauge and found that all presses flexed .0015 or a bit more with both Forster and Hornady dies. I could get cases fully resized by running them thru the once and waiting a few seconds, then sizing a second time.

My solution was to take my Hollywood Senior Turret and screw the tie bar down tight, which eliminated press flex and allowed me to get the shoulder measurement I needed.

However, I also considered the possibility that the dies were too long to adequately fl resize the casings and considered contacting someone with a surface grinder and taking .005 off the bottom of the die. Would this solve the problem of incomplete sizing?

243winxb
February 25, 2012, 11:22 AM
I was trying to resize 1k 7.62mm casings that had been fired in a MG. Small base dies might help. Take measurements of the fired brass to see if the web area is too large. Different lube has made a difference at times. SAAMI drawings/measurements here> http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm?page=CC

sugarmaker
February 25, 2012, 11:23 AM
From a previous post I indicated my RC cams over, and that I recalled making a couple mods to give it a bit more travel for 375HH. Well, I checked out the press and lo and behold I modified it for both down stroke travel and also milled a bit of metal from the toggle to allow it to go over TDC. I set the dial gauge on and it goes over TDC by a bit under .001". I like this because there is never question about the ram reaching top stroke, no matter how high the handle force is. For me the RC is pretty accurate if I back a die off a bit, with a given case / load its within a thou. For the lnl-ap I have to ensure die to ram contact at the size and seat stations otherwise its all over the map. I also place a rubber washer on the ram to help seat the pins etc. and it helps this press alot.
it takes a several hundred pounds to compress the washer so it presses the shell plate onto the base, seats the base onto the ram, and stresses the links. I made a post about that earleir with some measured results.

fguffey
February 25, 2012, 12:11 PM
Kevin, It is never necessary to grind a die and or shell holder, it is never necessary to purchase a set of Redding competition shell holders, those that sell Redding shell holders disagree, those that have already purchased Redding shell holders for the purpose of adding to the length of the case from the head of the case it’s shoulder may not have been able to increase the length of the case any other way. Then there is 1858, he was not happy, seems he did not get what they promised, I found a set for $5.00, I checked them, they were off a total of .003, things like that have never locked me up.

Before you grind the die, add a .005 shim between the deck of the shell holder and head of the case, when using RCBS dies it is possible to add a .011 thousands shim between the case head and and deck of the shell holder, but if you are using other shell holders check to see if there is enough clearance, anyhow, if you find it is necessary to grind the die, checking with a feeler gage will let you know if it will work and how much is necessary to remove.

I have a grinder, it is used to make pilots, tapers, erosion type gages, head space gages and for length of anything I can chuck up, it also is a butt cutter, it is water cooled and is adjustable in thousands. Point being, I have never found it necessary to grind a die and or shell holder. There is a difference between old shell holders and modern shell holders, any how, if you decide to grind the die, I will make a one time offer, but first I will exercise a right to determine the ability of the die to size a case back to minimum length/full length size with a shell holder that has a deck height of .125.

F. Guffey

rsrocket1
February 25, 2012, 12:19 PM
The problem with cam over is like that on a vice grip. You tighten the screw, it doesn't grip enough, tighten it more and before you know it, you tightened it too much and it won't release or it breaks something.

Tightening a die on a press that has cam over can crack a carbide die or lock it up.

fguffey
February 25, 2012, 12:26 PM
When you run out of ideals, out of desperation, purchase another die? Not desperate but I did purchase a new set of dies, 8mm-338 Winchester, at half price. I made the 338-280 dies out of ugly/cheap dies, like people I find no with ugly on the outside.

F. Guffey

Walkalong
February 25, 2012, 02:31 PM
Who kicked the anthill?

kingmt
February 25, 2012, 02:45 PM
Kingmt, nothing like having two standards.

F. Guffey

I don't understand.


The case can win because of bad habits, the case can win when the cases ability to resist sizing exceeds the ability of the press to size the case, and that is the reason I said I can determine if the case was sized before I lower the ram.

F. Guffey

I agree.

Gloob

No BS there it is all truth. Why do you think the press stretches?

bigedp51
February 25, 2012, 04:44 PM
If people would read the front part of their reloading manuals we wouldn't be having this discussion.

"WHY" would anyone want to "OVER" resize their cases?

Does anyone want to buy a Cam Over Drill? :rolleyes: (it will bump, jump and rock and roll) :D

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/hand20cranked20drill.jpg

Hopkins
February 25, 2012, 06:54 PM
Just as a reference

Hopkins
February 25, 2012, 07:10 PM
Hopefully legible in this attachment.

918v
February 25, 2012, 07:20 PM
"WHY" would anyone want to "OVER" resize their cases?

Because

This is important if you have a rifle with a short chamber or if your die is short or your shell holder a bit too tall.

Also, in the case of the 9mm, the more you size the longer the case gets. Being that 9mm are too short to begin with, getting all the length you can is a good thing. Chambering a .740" case in a .762" chamber is not conducive to good accuracy.

918v
February 25, 2012, 07:30 PM
Tightening a die on a press that has cam over can crack a carbide die or lock it up.

Only if the carbide sticks out the bottom of the die. That is not an issue with most dies.

918v
February 25, 2012, 07:32 PM
The problem with cam over is like that on a vice grip. You tighten the screw, it doesn't grip enough, tighten it more and before you know it, you tightened it too much and it won't release or it breaks something.

For the purpose of achieving maximum amount of sizing, you don't have to have the press camming over that much. .001" to .002" is enough and does no harm.

918v
February 25, 2012, 07:37 PM
Kevin, It is never necessary to grind a die and or shell holder, it is never necessary to purchase a set of Redding competition shell holders, those that sell Redding shell holders disagree, those that have already purchased Redding shell holders for the purpose of adding to the length of the case from the head of the case it’s shoulder may not have been able to increase the length of the case any other way. Then there is 1858, he was not happy, seems he did not get what they promised, I found a set for $5.00, I checked them, they were off a total of .003, things like that have never locked me up.

I disagree. I had to grind my 9mm shell holder to get the die to size the cases to get them to be .748"+.

I like my Redding competition shell holders. They make sizing a breeze. I typically use the +.008" one to get my bolts to close snug. They are dead on. Maybe your buddy got a POS set.

918v
February 25, 2012, 07:38 PM
My vote is for cam over.

Even when it is not necessary?

kingmt
February 25, 2012, 11:21 PM
It is necessary for my rifles. .002 between the shell holder & the die & I can't close the bolt. I can get them in my sons rifle with a little force then chamber them in mine but it is a pain & once in a while they stick after fired. The other guns it just won't work. I just got a AR & some of the cases still didn't chamber with the press camming over. I haven't dug into it yet to find out why. As fguffey said "sometimes the press wins & sometimes the case wins". If the press is camming over then most of the time the press wins. I would have to use a dial indicator or something if I didn't have that bump to tell me I got a full size. You can add a shim to the top of the shell holder if you like. I used to only FL new to me cases so not that big a deal.

cfullgraf
February 25, 2012, 11:41 PM
This thread is making my head spin.

I hope everyone realizes that if a press "cams over" it will do so whether the shell holder touches the die or not. Camming over just indicates that the ram has gone beyond top dead center and is going down.

By setting the press the cam over at some load to get the press to cam over, in theory, you are taking up all the looseness in the ram mechanism as well as flexing the frame about the same and therefore the case is sized the same every time.

If you do not load up the ram and remove all the looseness in the system, different cases, as they are resized, will affect the amount of resizing.

If you do set the press to have the shell holder jam against the die without camming over, then you should rig up a torque wrench to insure you are applying the same force to the system with each case.

Is it enough difference to make a difference? Some say it is, some say it isn't.

Certaindeaf
February 25, 2012, 11:41 PM
Cam over, man!. Cam over!

bigedp51
February 26, 2012, 12:08 AM
Make sure you rotate your head and run it through two wash cycles and you will have clean cam over. :rolleyes:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dishwasher_307.jpg

fguffey
February 26, 2012, 11:13 AM
“Maybe your buddy got a POS set”

918V, I would never take the liberty to call 1858 ‘my buddy’, I believe him when he said three of his shell holders were off when measured from the deck of the shell holder to the top of the shell holder. POS? Ask Redding if they made POS shell holders, I still have my #6 set that has three shell holders that are off .003, the combination gives me a gap in the legendary .002 thousands increments advertised. He expected better from Redding and got it, they could have bonded, my opinion, Redding had no choice. I have the liberty to imagine how Redding felt/feels when 1858 exercises his option to purchase Redding products.

Again, I purchased a #6 set for $5.00, there is nothing the Redding shell holders can do that can not be accomplished with a feeler gage, with an exception, I have the option of adjust the die off the shell holder in increments of .001 thousands, that means I have 10 options with the feeler gage, for $40.00 I have the luxury of 5 options. I do not push tools for anyone, I am the big fan of a reloader knowing how to use the tools he owns, I do not think every question should be answered with purchase another tool, I do not believe owning an after market tool should catapult the owner on an ego trip, I said Redding makes it a point, their shell holder is needed, they call it a ‘competition component’ one more time, I adjust my die every time I install one in the press, I do not secure the lock ring to the die, again, Dillon lock rings do not have set screws, Lee lock rings do not have set screws, and that does not lock me up, but for other reloaders there is no other option, they insist on locking the lock ring to the die with a set the set screw, back to the part where Dillon does not use a set screw, Lee does not use a set screw.

F. Guffey

bigedp51
February 26, 2012, 12:46 PM
The idea behind reloading is to load accurate ammunition that is concentric with very little run out.

Jambing a feeler gauge or shim under the case to lift it off the deck of the shell holder can and will cause case misalignment and error. The design of the shell holder lets the case float and self center in the die and you can't do that by jambing shims under the case and restricting case movement.

The very reloading manuals you people are not reading explains how to check to see if the case is binding in the shell holder.

You people should be more worried about centering your dies to remove alignment error than worrying about the press going over center.

You would not see three pages and fifty some postings at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ talking about "cam over" when concentric ammo means accuracy.

When you have well known competitive shooters telling you to place rubber o-rings "UNDER" your dies lock ring this should tell you that shell and die alignment are important. And you don't achieve this by shoving shims in your shell holder and restricting case movement.

O-Rings on Dies May Reduce Run-Out

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/o-rings-on-dies-may-reduce-run-out/

918v
February 26, 2012, 01:07 PM
918V, I would never take the liberty to call 1858 ‘my buddy’

I thought we were just a bunch of people shooting the poop. I dint realize this was s formal meeting. I forgot my tie.

brickeyee
February 26, 2012, 01:23 PM
A torque wrench would at lease allow one to apply the same force to the ram with every stroke.

We are interested in mechanical position, not torque.

'Caming over' removes all the press slop from the final position of the shell in the die (within the limits of the press leverage and flex).

The mechanical advantage theoretically goes to infinity as one of the lever arms goes to zero (toggle block passes under the pin on the bottom of the ram).
Divide by zero for the mechanical advantage.

The whole toggle block press linkage was the RCBS Rockchucker 'claim to fame' and their patent 9scine expired).
before that all presses where simple levers with less fixed mechanical advantage.

918v
February 26, 2012, 01:34 PM
I want a forged steel press, made in the USA out of properly hardened 8620 alloy. I want to cam over so much the die threads strip and it shoots through the ceiling and brings down a crow.

GLOOB
February 26, 2012, 01:35 PM
[Camover] is necessary for my rifles. .002 between the shell holder & the die & I can't close the bolt. I can get them in my sons rifle with a little force then chamber them in mine but it is a pain & once in a while they stick after fired.
Kingmt, you don't need camover. You need to set your dies right. I can't believe you're confusing this issue.

Take your press. Set it to TDC, or if your press doesn't cam over, then set it all the way up. Screw your die all the way down till it touches the shell plate. Now size a case. Feels good, right? Press goes all the way up. Nope. Take a look from the side. Unless you have a very rigid press, you'll see a gap between the die and shellholder.

Now follow the instructions and set your die up the same way. But screw the die down an additional quarter turn. Size your case. Look to make sure the shellholder and die are touching. This works with or without cam over, the exact same way. Without cam over, you don't need a torque wrench. When the die and shellholder touch, it doesn't matter what the torque is. The leftover torque will flex the press, it won't oversize your case. You do not need cam over for your rifles. No one needs cam over, unless they physically don't have the muscle to get the case to size without it.

Ok, fine. You already understand this, right? Then why are you clouding the issue by saying that without cam over, your dies don't work?

I don't get it. Is there some special terminology among reloaders where cam over no longer describes the linkage system of a press, but instead describes how you set your die? Can someone please enlighten me? I'm starting to think reloaders are secretly obfuscating their terminology in order to give newbies a hard time.

If we're not talking about the same thing, no wonder this thread looks like total BS. To me, cam over describes the linkage system of a press that goes past TDC, like a vice grip. That is all. To everyone else, please add your definitions, so that your posts makes sense.

twofifty
February 26, 2012, 01:52 PM
Quoting guffy:
918V, I would never take the liberty to call 1858 ‘my buddy’

quoting 918V:
I thought we were just a bunch of people shooting the poop. I dint realize this was s formal meeting. I forgot my tie.





good one!

Hopkins
February 26, 2012, 02:03 PM
It's hard enough to get a forged receiver much less a press. I have a 30 ton hydraulic bearing press and I think I'll just do my FL resizing with it.

243winxb
February 26, 2012, 02:18 PM
" To ensure all play is removed from the press leverage system." http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Firearms%20%20and%20%20Reloading/RCBSInstructions.jpg Its so simple, follow instructions. :D

fguffey
February 26, 2012, 02:42 PM
“You would not see three pages and fifty some postings at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ talking about "cam over" when concentric ammo means accuracy”

You are correct, you will find 16 pages of mindless insults and insults through innuendo, the person asking the question furnished all the answers, he knew the answers the forum would give. Through all their efforts they learned they were not allowed to disagree.

F. Guffey

oldreloader
February 26, 2012, 02:46 PM
I use both a Rockchucker (camover) and a Classic Turret (no camover). They both make great ammo. The difference is in the "feel" of the lever and only affects me not the ammo. JMO.

bigedp51
February 26, 2012, 03:18 PM
fguffey

“You would not see three pages and fifty some postings at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ talking about "cam over" when concentric ammo means accuracy”

You are correct, you will find 16 pages of mindless insults and insults through innuendo, the person asking the question furnished all the answers, he knew the answers the forum would give. Through all their efforts they learned they were not allowed to disagree.

F. Guffey

You mean the people at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ didn't agree with the methods you posted fguffey. :eek:

Could it be that more than a few people don't believe in your shimming methods that bind the base of the case in the shell holder when you jamb shims in it. :rolleyes:

I wonder why RCBS told me to shorten my shell holder and didn't tell me to cram shims in the bottom of the shell holder?

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6943.jpg

And resizing dies are adjustable and move up and down for a reason.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6318.jpg

Your NOT going to push the shoulder back on every cartridge or have the die contact the shell holder and push the shoulder back 1/8 of an inch. Sometimes reloading isn't a "contact" sport. ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6321.jpg

918v
February 26, 2012, 03:53 PM
Now follow the instructions and set your die up the same way. But screw the die down an additional quarter turn. Size your case. Look to make sure the shellholder and die are touching. This works with or without cam over, the exact same way.

Guess what? You have just set up the press to cam over, but without a case in the shell holder.

Walkalong
February 26, 2012, 03:57 PM
Sometimes reloading isn't a "contact" sport. Yep.

James2
February 26, 2012, 04:53 PM
From this discussion I have learned:
That we all have an opinion and many are not afraid to share it.

That some on this forum will agree with me about "Cam Over".

From my many years of reloading I have learned that:

"Cam Over" has nothing at all to do with properly sizing your cases.

That properly adjusting the die in the press has everything to do with sizing your cases.

That said, a word to the newcomers to the game. When you hear the words "Cam Over" take it with a grain of salt and remember to adjust the die correctly. Whether or not you want play with the cam over thing is up to you, but it really doesn't matter. You decide.

Now will the moderator please lock this thread?

Thanks to all for your participation.

GLOOB
February 26, 2012, 09:44 PM
Now follow the instructions and set your die up the same way. But screw the die down an additional quarter turn. Size your case. Look to make sure the shellholder and die are touching. This works with or without cam over, the exact same way.

Guess what? You have just set up the press to cam over, but without a case in the shell holder.
918, what do you mean by this? Can you please tell me how I have set up my press to cam over, when it can't cam over?

Is this "cam over" talk really just an inside joke of some sort? Does "cam over" mean anything you want it to, kinda like when the little blue people use the word "smurfy?"

Please don't lock this thread. Everyone is being civil, and most of us are having fun. :) Maybe I can even learn what cam over IS. Seriously. What is cam over?

kingmt
February 26, 2012, 10:31 PM
Please don't lock this thread. Everyone is being civil, and most of us are having fun. :) Maybe I can even learn what cam over IS. Seriously. What is cam over?
I agree there is no need to lock the thread but I don't agree everyone is being civil but maybe they will grow up soon.

Gloob
I know how to set my dies up. Cam over means the same thing if the case is in the die or not. Maybe where we are having confusion is when we are using the term. I set my dies up to cause the press to cam over when there is no case in the shell holder. If I had a .002" gap between the shell holder & the die they would not fit my chambers. Maybe your right about me being to weak because I tried some 243 Win cases on my Pro1000 & the didn't fit my chamber. I got the bolt to close on the same cases with a lot of force in my sons then they fit my chamber. That has been the only rifle cases I have tried on the Pro1000. 223Rem may be different.

Walkalong
February 26, 2012, 10:41 PM
You adjust the amount of sizing by adjusting the die. One learns this on day one when they read their shiny new manual.

The LNL "cams over". After that if you keep pushing down on the handle the ram never moves any more (Neither up nor down), you just stress the mount and the bench. You push the handle down and when the ram reaches TDC (for you motor buffs) it only takes a slight effort to finish the movement on the linkage, because at this point it is no longer pushing the ram up, or down. The ram does not come back down any at this point. It only moves back down when the handle is pulled back up.

"Cams over" may not be the right term, but it has always been described as such in load books.

918v
February 26, 2012, 10:49 PM
918, what do you mean by this? Can you please tell me how I have set up my press to cam over, when it can't cam over?


99% of reloading presses can cam over. Setting up a die the way you describe will induce caming over.

kingmt
February 26, 2012, 10:56 PM
biged
If you put a shim under the case all you are doing is raising the deck. No one said to drive a wedge in it. There is no way you are going to shove a case in that far without centering it. Now if the expander is canted that is a different story.

I think that fguffy goes through a lot of trouble I don't need to in my reloading & disregard a lot of it but that doesn't mean he is wrong. I have never read anything he has posted that was wrong. I have read a lot of other misinformation or close enough to work but not right on this form but he is right on everything that I have read.

GLOOB
February 26, 2012, 11:20 PM
99% of reloading presses can cam over. Setting up a die the way you describe will induce caming over.
Ding. Here's one mystery solved. 20 people here all talking about cam over, and no one agrees what it is. Some are talking about it as a way to set up a die, assuming the press in question has it. Others are using the term to describe how the press linkage works, and realize that not all presses do it at all.

I dunno of any Lee press that cams over, and I'm pretty sure they have way more market share than 1%.

918v
February 26, 2012, 11:40 PM
Any "O" type press has the ability to cam over due to the nature of the linkage. The best way to describe it is like vice grip locking pliers. That is what you feel in the linkage when the press cams over, and that is induced by screwing the die more than necessary to touch the shell holder with the ram all the way up and no case inside.

GLOOB
February 27, 2012, 12:02 AM
918, now I at least understand your definition of cam over. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't know where you get your information from. AFAIK, not all O-ring presses have the ability to cam over. I think someone here stated that RCBS patented the cam over system, and the Rock Chucker was the first press that had this feature. There were a lot of presses made before the Rock Chucker than didn't cam over. And since then, a lot of presses continued to be made that don't cam over. Unless I'm mistaken, my Breechlock Challenger O-ring press does not have the ability to cam over.

To confound things further, the description on Midway says it has a linkage designed to prevent cam over.
The powerful steel compound linkage with travel stop helps to prevent "cam-over".

918v
February 27, 2012, 12:08 AM
Yes it does.

GLOOB
February 27, 2012, 12:18 AM
Perhaps when it gets worn out, it'll start to cam over. But it appears to be designed to stop right at TDC. I've never gotten it to cam over, and I have tightened my dies and pressed on it pretty good, trying to get some stiff rifle brass to behave. (Ended up annealing it, and problem was solved)

This guy agrees:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=635044

Paul5388, the moderator on Handloads.com posted this in 2008:
The RCBS Rock Chucker is an example of a press that "cams over" and the Lee Cast Iron Classics are an example of presses that don't "cam over". That's why Lee gives instructions for both types of presses.

Perhaps our presses are defective. I'm not saying you're wrong. Just curious where you get your information.

918v
February 27, 2012, 12:42 AM
OK then, how much "over" do you want it to cam before you consider it having the ability to do so?

I don't care if it is .000001" or .010", setting up the dies to to compensate for the frame springing is what matters, if doing so is necessary to begin with.

GLOOB
February 27, 2012, 12:49 AM
I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from on this. How much do I want it to cam over? I don't really care. It either does or doesn't.

setting up the dies to to compensate for the frame springing is what matters, if doing so is necessary to begin with.
I've agreed with this all along.

So to be clear, is the definition of "cam over" now meant to be recognized as "setting up dies to compensate for frame springing?"

This word is incredibly ill-defined, isn't it?

bigedp51
February 27, 2012, 12:53 AM
kingmt

biged
If you put a shim under the case all you are doing is raising the deck. No one said to drive a wedge in it. There is no way you are going to shove a case in that far without centering it. Now if the expander is canted that is a different story.

I think that fguffy goes through a lot of trouble I don't need to in my reloading & disregard a lot of it but that doesn't mean he is wrong. I have never read anything he has posted that was wrong. I have read a lot of other misinformation or close enough to work but not right on this form but he is right on everything that I have read.

1. Mark me down as having higher standards than you do kingmt. ;)

2. Show me any reloading manual that tells you to "shim" the shell holder.

3. Shimming the shell holder can prevent the case from floating and being able to self center in the die and thus control how concentric the cartridge case is.

4. Show me a case that has been fired and reloaded that doesn't have dings and dents in the rim that can effect the case from centering in the shell holder especially if you shim the deck of the shell holder.

5. What's all the fuss over "Cam Over"

From the Sierra reloading manual:

Excessive Resizing

Instructions included with most die sets suggest screwing the die body down until it contacts the shell holder, when the ram is at the top of its stroke. We feel that this is undesirable as it often results in excessive resizing, which in turn, can result in reduced case life. While this may be necessary when the ammunition being loaded will be used in a number of different firearms, we strongly recommend that resizing dies be adjusted using the first method described in the Full Length Sizing section whenever possible.

Full Length Sizing

Adjustment of the full length die calls for the die body to be screwed down in the press until it contacts the shell holder at the top of the ram’s stroke. If the ammunition is to be reused in the same gun the cases were originally fired in, back the die off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn and size a lightly lubricated case. Wipe the case dry, and chamber it in the gun. If any resistance is felt, lower the die body another 1/8 of a turn (or less), and repeat the process with another fired case. This is repeated until the action will just close without resistance. When this has been accomplished, set the lock ring to secure the die in place. This method will ensure that the fired cases are resized with a minimum amount of headspace. This case has now been “custom fitted” to that particular chamber.

Depending on your rifles headspace a properly adjusted resizing die does not have to touch the shell holder.

All this "Cam Over" and shell holder BS because some of you people aren't reading the reloading manuals. And on top of this I don't want someone giving me shade tree mechanic advice about shimming shell holders, inducing error and creating inaccurate reloaded ammunition. And if the competitive shooters at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ didn't want to hear about shimming the shell holder that should tell you something.

Now kingmt, you asked a question and I gave you an answer, there are 6,996,981,398 people on this planet and not everyone is going to agree with you and fguffey, so get over it. I'm NOT shimming my shell holder and I wouldn't even suggest someone even trying it, end of story.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/May2011-a.jpg

kingmt
February 27, 2012, 06:44 AM
I wish you would get over your attitude.

I'm not telling you to shimmer anything. I don't shim anything. It can be done if needed tho. If you have .010" clearance then a .002" shim on the deck isn't going to keep it from flooting. Shell holders are made to fit more then one case head while being close enough to work.

cfullgraf
February 27, 2012, 09:18 AM
If the equipment manufacturers cannot agree on setting up dies, do you really expect us peons to be able to agree?

The desired result is to resize brass exactly the same every time regardless of what the resizing objectives are (minimum resizing, optimum chamber fitting, fit any chamber, perfectly centered, etc.).

One trouble is we are dealing in a thousandth or two of variance. The tolerances in the various components of the press ram mechanism can add up to more than a thousandth or two. Add in lubrication and dirt in the system as well as any flex in the press and those tolerances now become variables themselves.

As with many things, there are several ways to skin a cat. Several good, but different methods have been presented here. Each has advantages and disadvantages. One method would probably work better for a particular desired result than another. And vice versa.

The best solution is to work with the different methods of setting dies and find the one that provides you with the best results for your reloading and shooting objectives.

Walkalong
February 27, 2012, 09:32 AM
A couple of folks seem to be confused and think they are setting up the press. You set up your dies. The press is constant, except for stretching, which can affect the outcome a little. The differences in spring back from case to case show up as well. Those irregularities remain constant as well, but they are small compared to the adjustments on dies. We get things screwed up adjusting dies wrong.

StandingTall
February 27, 2012, 10:56 AM
If the equipment manufacturers cannot agree on setting up dies, do you really expect us peons to be able to agree?

The desired result is to resize brass exactly the same every time regardless of what the resizing objectives are (minimum resizing, optimum chamber fitting, fit any chamber, perfectly centered, etc.).

One trouble is we are dealing in a thousandth or two of variance. The tolerances in the various components of the press ram mechanism can add up to more than a thousandth or two. Add in lubrication and dirt in the system as well as any flex in the press and those tolerances now become variables themselves.

As with many things, there are several ways to skin a cat. Several good, but different methods have been presented here. Each has advantages and disadvantages. One method would probably work better for a particular desired result than another. And vice versa.

The best solution is to work with the different methods of setting dies and find the one that provides you with the best results for your reloading and shooting objectives.
Best response I've seen yet.

Before that, I was fixin' to take my Lee Challenger and throw it in the trash because it didn't "cam over". LOL

bigedp51
February 27, 2012, 12:20 PM
kingmt

I wish you would get over your attitude.

I'm not telling you to shimmer anything. I don't shim anything. It can be done if needed tho. If you have .010" clearance then a .002" shim on the deck isn't going to keep it from flooting. Shell holders are made to fit more then one case head while being close enough to work.

Right now I have 100 brand new unfired 30-06 cartridge cases that bind in a RCBS shell holder and do not spin let alone float in the shell holder. Then you tell me I have an attitude about the theoretical advice you have given out here but have never done, attempted or tried yourself. :eek:

I don't have an attitude but I do get heart burn and indigestion from reading some of these postings. :banghead:

It's amazing what you can find in the front of your reloading manuals and it isn't shimming the shell holder and four pages of "cam over".

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/speer-2.jpg

918v
February 27, 2012, 01:26 PM
Right now I have 100 brand new unfired 30-06 cartridge cases that bind in a RCBS shell holder and do not spin let alone float in the shell holder.

Lots of brass with QC problems out there.

ATK changed the dimensions of some of their brass. Their newer 9mm and 45 ACP cases, for example, are a couple thousands bigger in diameter. Or maybe you have a POS shell holder.

kingmt
February 27, 2012, 02:06 PM
Wow. You just arn't able to grasp things. I'm not retypeing so you should go back & reread. I never suggested it only agreed it would work. I'm smart enough to be able to see it without doing it. Do you remember math when the teacher used oranges & apples?

bigedp51
February 27, 2012, 05:17 PM
kingmt

Wow. You just arn't able to grasp things. I'm not retypeing so you should go back & reread. I never suggested it only agreed it would work. I'm smart enough to be able to see it without doing it. Do you remember math when the teacher used oranges & apples?

Addition

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP4385.jpg

Subtraction (.003 removed from top of shell holder) ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6943.jpg

Higher math

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP5130-1.jpg

"Cam Over" calculator :rolleyes:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMG_1243.jpg

Checking the math ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP7169.jpg

No third grade apples or oranges here :eek:

kingmt
February 27, 2012, 07:43 PM
Nice tools. Now what does it have to do with the clearance in the shell holders? All I said was 10ths - 2ths is 8ths. Your shell would still be free to center. It should be rear that it would be needed.

I don't know what you mean by measuring cam over.

fguffey
February 28, 2012, 10:34 AM
“If the equipment manufacturers cannot agree on setting up dies, do you really expect us peons to be able to agree?”

cfullgraff, depends on the ego, I have helped with different concepts, methods and techniques, two days after helping, the person I helped has forgotten where he got the information, and that is in the real world.

I believe a few reloaders are capable of determining if a case has been sized before the ram is lowered, I believe a few reloaders are capable of determining the length of the chamber before firing, others insist on firing to form, I believe a few reloaders are capable of understand transfers and standards.



“manufacturers cannot agree” ? There are many reloaders out there that can not measure cam over, not knowing how is OK, not wanting to know identifies those that can not ask “HOW?” Then there are those that have thrown the term “cam over” around as though they understood the concept, then, someone comes along and says “I have 4 Rock Chuckers, not one of them will cam over, they lock up, jams up, cram up, but not one of them will cam over”, and I have said I am not a fan of abusing a press, there is no shortage of press here (as in where I am), and I have choices, moving to a ‘tuffer’ press is not an option (opinion), a presses inability to size a case is not a problem of the press, it is caused by bad habits “do you really expect us (form members) to be able to agree?” To answer that question I suggest you read through 4 pages of responses then make an attempt to determine agendas.

I have deflection gages, I have a strain gage, impossible concept for most reloadrs to understand, nothing sizes like a new, unfired case, then comes the once fired case, after that comes all the bad habits repeated over and over like fire your cases 5 times, first fire form, then neck size 4 times, then full length size???? back to minimum length and start over?????? “do you really expect us form members to be able to agree?” Again, go back and read through responses posted by members that have repeated the 6 time sizing and firing information and then explain how they will/would respond to someone that disagrees. Then drop down a couple of responses where Walkalong goes into ‘spring back’ as though that is an excuse for the failure of a presses ability to size a case when he knows working the case hardens the brass, firing is working, sizing is working, in the perfect world the press sizes new unfired brass, then it sizes once fired brass, somewhere after more work and firing the press is no longer able to restore the case to minimum length/full length sized. Again, I size cases for the chamber, I do not fire form, I form first then fire, after firing I eject fired cases, I then adjust the press, die and shell holder to size cases that fit my chamber. Jump back, snap back or pop back of the case does not lock me up, again, I have a rifle with .016 thousands head space? or explained in another way, the length of the chamber is longer by .016 thousands than a 30/06 I chamber from the face of the bolt to the shoulder of the chamber, fire form???? that is what most reloaders do, I find cases that are longer than the chamber in my M1917, not necessary to look far, the 280 Remington case is .041 thousands longer than the 30/06 from the case head to the case shoulder. Again, none of this stuff locks me up, I form cases for my M1917 by adjusting the die off the shell holder with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, I adjust the gap to .014 thousands, If the cases were not new or once fired, instead of being hard headed I would decrease the gap, back to the perfect case, I would not form 5 time fired cases by necking them up from 284 to .308 and I would not erase the shoulder and form it .027 thousands further back.

Again, I size cases with the die adjusted off the shell holder when necessary, again, I have no agenda, if the case needs to float and center it has already floated and centered before the case has a chance to take on the appearance of a bent/crooked case with run out.

Again, I have said not all shell holders are alike, I have said a few, very few, reloaders know the difference, and never has anyone ask “How are they different and or for what purpose”.



F. Guffey

fguffey
February 28, 2012, 11:06 AM
Kingmt, I have 10 passes that cam over, none of the 10 is a Rock Chuckers, I have 4 Rock Chuckers, none of my Rock Chuckers will cam over, and that is what this is all about, it is not easy for someone to claim they have a Rock Chucker that cams over and according to the story their press cams over, again, I can modify a Rock Chucker to Cam over, but in doing so I have to add a stop to travel to prevent the linkage from jamming up, cramming up or locking up, but, WAIT! That is what it does as demonstrated with the video, with out a die and shell holder, that ram moved up to the limit of travel, and them the ram moved forward (remember this), my presses that cam over reach the top of it’s travel (top dead center) then stops? then continues to travel past top dead center, after reaching to top of travel the ram starts down because of the arch of travel by design. To measure the amount of cam over raise the ram until it contacts the shell holder, secure the die to the press with the lock ring, then raise the ram past top dead center, all one has to do is measure the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die, the gap when measured with a feeler gage will indicate the amount of cam over.

Back to bump, I said my Rock Chuckers do not cam over, I said I had cam over presses, when adjusted to ‘Zero Load” my cam over presses bump twice, once on the way up and again once on the way down, If I adjust the ram on my cam over presses for die contact to the shell holder after top dead canter the amount of bump is the amount of sizing being done, meaning there is less strain on the press after top dead canter, then there is the fractional adjustments of a turn and wild guestimates of a turn in degrees absent from the reloaders vocabulary is verify and then standards along with transfers.

F. Guffey

Walkalong
February 28, 2012, 11:48 AM
fguffeyI size cases with the die adjusted off the shell holder when necessary,
Many of us do. So what?

If you would write in a clear manner instead of your cryptic style, leave out the insults, and the condescending attitude, you could probably pass some wisdom on from time to time.

Most everyone here wants to learn more and get better at the craft, but no one wants to be continually insulted and told they are ignorant and unable to learn.

fguffey
February 28, 2012, 12:42 PM
Walkalong, “Many of us do. So what?”

The question? How do you adjust the die off the shell holder? Put another way, Do you use the fractional guestimate of a turn or the wild guestimate in degrees? Again, I ask if you verify the adjustment when using the guestimate of a turn of the die measured in fractional or some kind of an adjustment using degrees? The last time I ask you that question you responded with “You know how I adjust my dies”, Walkalong, I do not know how you adjust your dies. Again, I skip the fractional turn of the die in fractional turns, I skip the part where most make adjustments in degrees, I do not make guesses when adjusting my dies, Few reloaders verify, to verify the reloader must have standards, they need transfers, another question. “How do you verify an adjustment?

Not possible for a reloader to answer the questions above if they insist on securing the lock ring to the die. I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, again Dillon lock rings do not have set screws, Lee lock rings do not have set screws, Dillon does have an integral nut on top of the die, WHY? that is another question.

Again, and I know you are tired of hearing about my M1917 with .016 thousands head space, to make a point, I ask you to tell me how I should adjust my dies when forming 280 Remington cases for the long chamber. I have heard the one where a reloader starts sizing and checking, sizing some more by screwing the die down more and sizing again, then checking to see if the case will chamber, another question. If the reloader knows the length of the chamber, why does he choose to guess when making adjustments? Again, I kinow the length of the chamber before I start sizing.

F. Guffey

fguffey
February 28, 2012, 12:54 PM
Walkalong,

“but no one wants to be continually insulted and told they are ignorant and unable to learn” Go back and apply that statement to every post in this thread, then ask me if I believe you have two standards for different individuals.

I doubt very few will understand what I mean when I say I am very proud of Kingmt. in behavior he is worthy of my respect.

And this is about the point you go to the pop corn or ask ‘who kicked the nest’.

F. Guffey

fguffey
February 28, 2012, 01:08 PM
Gloob, again, as you have noticed, after years of claiming their presses cam over it difficult for some to accept, it will not be long before everyone goes to believing they knew their cam-over press did not cam over.

For me it is easy to continue through like as a humble person, I am surrounded with those that are not, they insist on being the ‘discoverer’.

F. Guffey

And I said (remember this).

cfullgraf
February 28, 2012, 01:35 PM
Remember, you can always set a die so the press cannot cam over.

Remember, you can always set up dies so that the shell holder does not contact the die.

Remember, when the press ram is at "top dead center", small movements in the lever handle will result in imperceptible movement of the ram.

Individual opinions aside, if there was one method of setting up the dies that yielded the absolute best ammunition, everyone would be using that method.

Are we entering the area of the law of diminishing returns?

GLOOB
February 28, 2012, 01:46 PM
No offense, fguffey. But I agree with Walkalong that a lot of your posts seem cryptic.

I think I finally figured out what you mean by "cram over, jam over, wham over." Are you saying that the Rock Chucker moves laterally when it cams over? And that it cams over too much, to the point where you need to add your own stop so that it doesn't lock up at the top of of the stroke, like a vice grip pliers? Woohoo. After reading that description 3 times, I'm glad you finally explained it a little more plainly. You aren't from Luisiana, by chance? :D

My Breechlock isn't in the same boat as the Rock Chucker. It just stops at the top. No cam over, bam over, thank-you-ma'am over.

BTW, 14 presses, including 4 Rock Chuckers? If you don't like the Rock Chucker, then why so many?!?? :eek:

R.W.Dale
February 28, 2012, 01:50 PM
Honestly fGuffy I skip reading your posts as I have yet to discern any comprehensible information from them. Its actually easier to figure out what you're saying by reading everyone else's replies to your "commentary".

You fit right in over on accurate reloading. Perhaps you and HOT-CORE can start a 223 and deer thread togeather.

posted via tapatalk using android.

GT1
February 28, 2012, 02:17 PM
Cryptic?

There is an understatement. I enjoy reading input, but when that guy posts I always say to myself 'story time!' and know I'll have to try to decode it, but I have given up.

Anyway, reading this thread so far makes me never want to reload rifle. It is made out to be too complicated. :o

cfullgraf
February 28, 2012, 04:15 PM
Anyway, reading this thread so far makes me never want to reload rifle. It is made out to be too complicated. :o

No, it is not complicated. Some of these folks are making mountains out of mole hills.

Excellent ammunition can be made by following the manufacturer's instruction and the printed reloading manuals. You may or may not see benefits from some of these obsessive compulsive practices. There are just too many variables to consider.

But hey, I got my idiosyncrasies as well.

Striker Fired
February 28, 2012, 05:11 PM
Can I have my 45 minutes back?:uhoh::scrutiny:

NeuseRvrRat
February 28, 2012, 07:09 PM
i sure am glad so many of you have found methods that work for you. quit arguing and go load some ammo.

dmazur
February 28, 2012, 08:20 PM
I have learned a lot from various threads on this forum. I believe that the tone is generally educational and that egos are not always at the top of the priority list...

Sometimes it reminds me of sitting around a fire, where the arguments would continue long after dark, until


There wasn't any more firewood
There wasn't any more whiskey
Nobody could remember what we were talking about


I couldn't find the original author, but when I searched for this cartoon, I got over 5,000,000 hits -

Someone is wrong on the Internet (http://kinnon.tv/2008/07/someone-is-wron.html)

Based on the number of teenagers having trouble with social media, we should all be careful. The government might come along and regulate the Internet just to make sure nobody gets their feelings hurt. :)

kingmt
February 28, 2012, 09:00 PM
I like technical reading. I like to lean things even if I'm not going to put it into practice. If that is how cam over is explained then my press doesn't cam over but the linkage does do what I would call cam over. The ram doesn't come back down but the after it reaches the point of the most pressure the linkage just tarts to lower its pressure & does what you call jams against the stops.

bigedp51
February 28, 2012, 09:27 PM
fguffey didn't invent the reloading press or invent cartridge headspace and when that soaks in and he stops his condescending manor he "might" be excepted into the "worth reading" category. To the average person reading these postings you have no idea what is truth, what is fabricated myth or ego generated hype.

Right now at Castboolits.com there is a person handing out information and he doesn't cast bullets or even have a reloading press. He sits in front of the computer reading other peoples postings and then justs repeats what he reads in another forum.

Read your reloading manuals and cross reference what you read here with factual printed information until you learn who you can trust in these forums.

When the press handle is in the down position it ain't going any further no matter what you call it, and many of you need to learn how to "ADJUST" your dies for minimum full length resizing where the die never touches the shell holder.


http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Apocalypse_camover.jpg

Walkalong
February 28, 2012, 09:32 PM
quit arguing and go load some ammoAlways good advise. :)

kingmt
February 28, 2012, 11:00 PM
I thought he was being well mannered considering how he has been put down. Thing maybe he looks at it like I do. I don't know any of you & could care less what you think. I just like to give back & teach others where I can. I agree he has a high opinion but he isn't blowing smoke.

I think highly of a lot of people on this form but don't always agree with them. This form used to be much more pleasant. I'm sure it will be again because the people that make the stink normally move along to cause trouble somewhere else eventually.

langenc
February 28, 2012, 11:11 PM
If the case chambers with just 'bumping' what difference dose it make.

I chack cases in a Wilson Case Gage and when properly sized they go blooop when dropped into it. If they need a little 'bump' I dont get the blooop, just drops into the gage.

bigedp51
February 28, 2012, 11:25 PM
kingmt

fguffey's postings and comments were not well received at accurateshooter.com by the competitive shooters with expensive reloading equipment and bug size groups. The people at accurateshooter.com know BS when they see it kingmt and you need to become more worldly and less gullible in the reloading world. In closing kingmt I'm not the only one here tired of postings that read like "War and Peace' written in Greek while the author pats himself on the back.

Bigedp51
Graduate of the Attila the Hun School of Diplomacy :rolleyes:

GLOOB
February 28, 2012, 11:29 PM
Good grief. Thread lock coming in 3...

Seedtick
February 28, 2012, 11:33 PM
I don't have an attitude but I do get heart burn and indigestion from reading some of these postings.

Sounds to me like it would be more healthy for you to not read some of these postings.

How do you feel when you read posts over at that accurateshooter place?

Seedtick

:)

oldreloader
February 28, 2012, 11:35 PM
As faucettb from another forum use to say "play nice" RIP Bob

Certaindeaf
February 28, 2012, 11:54 PM
Ram go up, ram go down.

bigedp51
February 28, 2012, 11:58 PM
Seedtick

fguffey once told me a .308 case wouldn't fit in a 30-06 chamber :eek:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Picture007.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Picture008.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Picture009.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Picture010.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Picture012.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/762-30-06.jpg

fguffey said the above photos were a lie, so sometimes I get a little heartburn and indigestion with BS and people who don't know what they are talking about.

GLOOB
February 29, 2012, 12:08 AM
2...

bigedp51
February 29, 2012, 12:26 AM
1...

Five pages and 2,012 viewing hits on how to pull a handle on a reloading press and you want to close down this "educational posting". :eek:

What would happen if a few people just read their reloading manuals?

R.W.Dale
February 29, 2012, 03:10 AM
0...

No that's five pages about how to pull the handle on a reloading press "the right way"

Any simpelton or half trained primate can pull the handle. It takes years of study as an apprentice under an enlightened master to pull that handle most artfully and with great purpose.

posted via tapatalk using android.

Brian Williams
February 29, 2012, 05:52 AM
I was going to lock this but...
When was the last time you all picked up your gun from the bench and did some real shooting.

kingmt
February 29, 2012, 06:40 AM
I still don't see a need to lock it but I also don't see where much useful info can be added so it wouldn't matter. It does look bad on our part tho.

My last statement didn't come out right ether. Even tho no one called me on it I'm sorry about the way it sounded. It isn't directed to anyone & I don't want anyone to leave. Hate to see anyone put down. I've told fguffey the same in other threads.

I try every day to become less worldly & I'm a well rounded person I can tell when people are blowing smoke. He does pat himself on the back, so do you, myself, & most others on here at times. The old timers in these threads have good information to put out & we do like helping others. I haven't been here as long as RC & I'm sure Walkalong, bds, & 243Win have been here longer. Us & the others are here because we fell we have something to give back as well as learn something new from time to time.

We don't have to agree to talk about things. It makes it easier to learn without argueing.

Hopkins
February 29, 2012, 06:57 AM
Just as a general observation: I have just seen a forum that has a shotshell reloading forum ban 4-5 interesting contributors for questioning a moderator. This forum is the property of a for profit outfit with an agenda. The Moderator has one also. I have decided that it is too PC for me to continue participating there.
Debate is healthy and stimulating if it continues to evolve with more information supporting each point of view.

jerkface11
February 29, 2012, 09:25 AM
Debate is healthy and stimulating if it continues to evolve with more information supporting each point of view

I don't see the debate here. Or the merit of claiming that presses don't cam over.

R.W.Dale
February 29, 2012, 11:49 AM
I was going to lock this but...
When was the last time you all picked up your gun from the bench and did some real shooting.

I went with the boys Sunday to the range. I may go again today.

posted via tapatalk using android.

jerkface11
February 29, 2012, 11:55 AM
I was going to lock this but...
When was the last time you all picked up your gun from the bench and did some real shooting.

I took my GF and her sister to the range Monday.

GT1
February 29, 2012, 12:15 PM
I was at the range yesterday testing my reloads.

I have determined that my ammo is way better than the factory stuff I have on hand. Here I thought it was me sucking.

Striker Fired
February 29, 2012, 01:23 PM
I spent another two hours trying to get my flux capacitor to work so I could get my 45 min back. Didn't work quite right, so now I'm out 2hrs and 45 min.:banghead:
I did get rid of any mice in the neighborhood though.:uhoh:

kingmt
February 29, 2012, 01:40 PM
Just switch your flux capacitor over to a 302 cam over engine & you can make that time up fast.

bigedp51
February 29, 2012, 02:15 PM
Bugholes from Bipod
Precision Shooting with Froggy

Part II — RELOADING
Elements of Accuracy — Making Perfect Ammo

Q: With the micro-sized groups you shoot, you must be doing some special voodoo. What is the secret to super-accurate reloads?

The secret to accuracy is that there is no secret–a good robust process that is repeatable every time is the key.

Q: OK, then, describe your reloading process…

When I get home from the range, I tumble the brass for a couple of hours to clean the necks up. After taking the brass out of the tumbler, I clean out all residual walnut media and walnut dust. I then use a little Imperial sizing wax on a RCBS pad to lightly coat the neck area of the cases.

I use a RCBS Rock Chucker single stage press. When using this or any other press, ensure that the ram has no lateral play or side-to-side slop–that will kill your bullet run-out.

After placing the correct shell holder onto the ram I use a stiff brush to remove any dirt trapped on the surface of the shell holder. Then the Full-Length Redding resizing die goes into the press. This die is adjusted to bump the shoulder exactly .001-.002″. I have removed the expander ball on the decapping shaft. Trust me, don’t use the expander. In most cases it will just tweak the neck or throw it out of alignment.

Bumping the shoulder .001-.002″ is the key to concentricity. If your press is in good shape and you use high-grade dies your end result will be excellent. But, again, get rid of the expander ball. Your brass is fire-formed to your chamber. It is already straight and round–so you dont want to tweak it with the ball.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/bugholes-from-bipod/

fguffey
March 6, 2012, 03:41 PM
Ed.

Marco Polo claimed to have traveled to China, because of information about China that was omitted in his story a good case can and has been made that Marco never got past the Camel Stop at The Crossroads, it is believed he got all his information about China from camel drivers traveling with caravans. All their story's started with “You are not going to believe this”,

In my opinion you should start your stories the same way.

You were told the 308W chamber could not be cleaned up with a 30/06 reamer, A 308W chamber can be cleaned up with an Ackely Improved reamer or a 30 Gibbs reamer, or by setting the barrel back (that is cryptic),

As to your claim: the 308W has less case taper and is shorter, meaning the 308W is larger in diameter, then you claimed the 308W is nothing more than a short 30/06, after that you claimed Dick Culver gave you part of your monument to man fame, in my opinion Dick Culver failed to inform you the 308W he fired in his match was a work out for his gas operated M1, then there were other questions, me? I am not mad at no one, but there are those that become indignant when his name is mentioned, because of his claim about firing the 308W’s in the M1.

To Quote KingMT, “to quote you”, or “your quote” Google is my friend” or “Google is your friend” Back to firing the 308W in the M1, to quote you “The 308W is a a short 30/06” and that is when I did not respond, I was warned you had to have the last word, that does not make me an enabler, other members that should be familiar with case specifications and chamber specifications are the ENABLERS, back to Dick Culver, the difference in case length between the 308W and the 30/06 from the head of the case to the shoulder is .388, on any M1 forum Culver’s claim jumped out, those that know what they are talking about had big doubts about the pressure drop being able to operate the pressure system, I understand your addiction to attention did not allow you to give Dick Culver credit for you monument to man’s whatever, (Your Quote, Thank you KingMT).

your quote again, “The 308W is nothing more than a small/short 30/06” On other M1 forums shooters know a short 30/06 represents excessive head space, if what you claim was true and if the 308W was a drop-in case to the 30/06 chamber there would be .388 head space, again-cryptic, the 308W is shorter and has less taper than the 30/06, when the 308W is chamber in a 30/06 chamber the large in diameter case/shoulder of the 308W must be sized when chambered.

And you were told if a 308 is a drop-in for the 30/06 chamber check the 30/06 chamber, the 30/06 chamber is too small in diameter at the 308W case shoulder juncture by .011 thousands, and if that the reason a 30/06 reamer can not clean up the chamber of the 308W and, again when chambering a 308W in a 30/06 chamber part of the case body and shoulder must be sized when the bolt is closed.

Then there was your mistake with pressures and conversions, then there is the beam type torque wrench tapped to the press. In the real world the question was asked about foot pounds and torque applied when sizing, then the conversation went into lofty terms, then I said I can do that, with a strain gage and verify with a torque wrench, and one person ask “HOW?” and you want me to take you serious, when posting pictures make it look like you are actively involved in reloading, not good for someone with all your claimed experience to only have new tools. My opinion, it will cost you a fortune to catch up, not with experience but in tools.

F. Guffey

Certaindeaf
March 6, 2012, 03:46 PM
Too many words. Didn't read.

kingmt
March 6, 2012, 04:43 PM
Why are you blaming me. I didn't say any of that. Fact I know nothing about a 308 or 308W. I barley know anything about a 30-06. Don't put wards into my mouth.

ranger335v
March 6, 2012, 05:40 PM
"Why are you blaming me. I didn't say any of that... Don't put wards into my mouth."

King, fergit it, it's all pointless gibberish anyway.

fguffey
March 6, 2012, 06:09 PM
You ask the question about “eat your heart out FGuffey” you seemed to think that was wrong, later I responded to your question with “There is nothing like two standards” and you responded with “I do not understand”.

Ed was giving someone a difficult time, seems Ed was using the term “To Quote you” I thought it was you,

Forgive,

F. Guffey
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by fguffey
Kingmt, nothing like having two standards.

F. Guffey

I don't understand.


Allow me a minute to run on a bit. Think of a rubber band & a rubber ball. If you squeeze a ball or stretch a rubber band they are under force & fight to get back to there at rest shape. Metal does this also. This is how bolts hold. A nut is used to stretch/crush the bolt to pull/shove to hold something in place. Large bolts that you can't get enough force to stretch the bolt by turning the nut requires a hydraulic cylinder to stretch the bolt then run the nut down & release the jack to allow the nut to hold the spring of the bolt.

So the question was can you get any more press after the shell holder contacts the die. The answer is yes but you need all of the leverage of the press.

My vote is for cam over.

Now to side track. Explain why I keep seeing eat your heart out fguffey.

Unless I'm taking it wrong it isn't appropriate & seems like it would be against forum rules.

This is the High road, how can there be two standards.

F. Guffey

bigedp51
March 6, 2012, 06:24 PM
Because the shell holder doesn't have to make contact with the resizing die to properly resize the cartridge case to have .001 to .002 head clearance.

Because you didin't invent the reloading press.

And you didn't invent cartridge headspace either.

What makes you think you are the father of all things headspace and resizing cartridge cases.

fguffey
March 6, 2012, 07:02 PM
Ed, I have been told not to type slower, again, the 308W must be sized when chambered, there are those that doubt D. Culver gas system would eject the cases they believe if in fact D. Culver fired the cases he had to eject his fired cases manualy because of the drop in pressure, Culver’s cases head spaced on the shoulder, if you can chamber a 308W case do not make the mistake of firing it as Culver claims he die, if what you said is true and the 308W is a small 30/06, when fired you will have .388 head space.

Culver claims the gas operated bolt closed with enough force/energy to chamber the 308W round, again, on a bolt gun the bolt closing will require more effort, because when closing the bolt on a 308 W in a 30/06 chamber the case is sized enough to allow bolt closing,

Ed., I have asked you before have you no pride. I thought, with Google being your friend you could get past and over some of this, I believe you take liberties you should not have when you allow yourself to be provoked, I have a suggestion, search case specifications for the 308W and the 30/06, then compare, you must share.

F. guffey

bigedp51
March 6, 2012, 07:31 PM
fguffey

You talk about taking the high road and yet in so many words you are calling Dick Culver and myself liars.

Dick Culver has his own website and has been published at the CMP M1 forums and you say he is lying about shooting a 7.62/.308 in a 30-06 M1. The military did it in testing with and without a chamber plug and you call me a liar.

You look at a drawing and call it practical experience when you have NONE at all on the subject.

"eat one's heart out"

EtymologyDisputed. Three schools of thought exist:

From "This will eat your heart out.", suggesting that the recipient of the taunt will have their heart, the core of their being, eaten out with desire, bitterness, or pain.

From the 16th century "to eat one's own heart" (to suffer in silence from anguish or grief), possibly from the Bible "to eat one's own flesh" (to be lazy) The phrase "to eat one's heart out" appears as a formulaic phrase in the Iliad, meaning to experience extreme grief. (For instance, Iliad.24.128, many other locations.)

When used as the taunt "Eat your heart out, [someone]!" a suggestion that the recipient of the taunt "eat up" as much as they like. (From the same construction as "dance your heart out," etc.) Literally, similar to "have all you can eat!" Figuratively more akin to "experience me besting you."

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/eat_one's_heart_out

Eat your heart out fguffy, you are wrong and Dick Culver and I are not liars.

fguffey
March 6, 2012, 07:51 PM
Because the shell holder doesn't have to make contact with the resizing die to properly resize the cartridge case to have .001 to .002 head clearance.

Because you didin't invent the reloading press.

And you didn't invent cartridge headspace either.

What makes you think you are the father of all things headspace and resizing cartridge cases.




Ed, thank you talking to me in a civil manner,

Because the shell holder doesn't have to make contact with the resizing die to properly resize the cartridge case to have .001 to .002 head clearance.


True, again I have a M1917 Eddystone with .016 thousands head space, I adjust the the die off the shell holder .014 thousands, I do not use 5 time fired cases, I start with 280 Remington cases.


Because you didn't invent the reloading press.

Again, true, if there is a difference, it has to be the way the press is used, I am not confined to the instruction, when chambering a rifle, I stop short of completing the chamber then form short cases to fit the short chamber.

And you didn't invent cartridge headspace either.

true, I do not use head space gages, I check head space three different ways without a head space gage, a case fitting a chamber, to me, is the difference between the length of the case from the head of the case to it’s shoulder and the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber. I have a grinder that makes pilots, tapper gages and also is a butt-grinder, that is all that is required to make a head space gage, but when finish the gage is one definitional.

What makes you think you are the father of all things headspace and resizing cartridge cases.

When the bolt closes the chamber gets dark, for most, again I check head space three different ways with the bolt closed. One reloader lost it when he suggested to an OP he could check his head space with a Cero-safe casting, I suggested the responder explain how that is done, I informed him I was one of the few that can do that, and suggested there were easier ways.

Again, I determine the length of the chamber first, when I set-up my die in the press to the shell holder I have a transfer.

F. Guffey

fguffey
March 6, 2012, 08:10 PM
Ed. sit down with Dick Culver and decide between the two of you how it happened, both of you can not be correct, either his claim is wrong or there is something you do not understand about the 308 W and the 30/06 chamber, again, and I hope you are not claiming any one could be proud of the way the old CSP was run. There were some very talented shooters/reloaders that left that forum out of disgust.

and I offered to help locate equipment/servers, at the time the equipment was being stripped for metal and shipped overseas, or shipped intact, cheap, and I was dealing with someone that worried about my motives,

I brought one home, hooked it up, fired it up, then the wife came home, that is when I learned she was not going to live in a wind tunnel.

F, Guffey

bigedp51
March 6, 2012, 10:39 PM
fguffey

Ed, thank you talking to me in a civil manner,


Do you know the difference between contempt and civil? :rolleyes:

I should have listened to ranger335v and just turned off my computer. :banghead:

twofifty
March 6, 2012, 10:53 PM
Feels just like the line-up to board the midnight train to Brooklyn, West Virginia. Wake up from a nightmare ride and you're in a coal mine on the New river...still in the dark !

bigedp51
March 6, 2012, 11:10 PM
nightmare at AccurateShooter.com and the fguffey magic feeler gauge train wreck. :eek:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3771351.0

twofifty
March 6, 2012, 11:26 PM
It is somewhat reassuring to note that we aren't the only forum that is wallowing in ignorance.

StandingTall
March 7, 2012, 07:43 AM
I honestly have never seen someone say so much about handloading/reloading and at the same time say nothing...

jerkface11
March 7, 2012, 10:05 AM
I honestly have never seen someone say so much and at the same time say nothing...

You must not pay attention to politics.

StandingTall
March 7, 2012, 10:46 AM
You must not pay attention to politics.
hehehe....I guess I should caveat my comment with "about handloading/reloading".

Hopkins
March 7, 2012, 11:33 AM
I would like to sincerely apologize for ever asking anything about using a feeler gauge to set up a resizing die or a press camming over. I had no idea the furies that question and comment could unleash.
Alex

bigedp51
March 7, 2012, 03:50 PM
No furies or any other mythological Greek creature was released here, the Greeks didn't have any mythological beasts that spread bovine scat throughout their kingdom.

Read the Sierra reloading link below if you want to know how to set up your dies and press and its that simple. Reading the front of your reloading manuals will prevent the release of the bovine scat monster and keep your life simple.

"All the information in the world is written in books and all you have to do is read" ;)

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/resize.cfm

Adjustment of the full length die calls for the die body to be screwed down in the press until it contacts the shell holder at the top of the ram’s stroke. If the ammunition is to be reused in the same gun the cases were originally fired in, back the die off 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn and size a lightly lubricated case. Wipe the case dry, and chamber it in the gun. If any resistance is felt, lower the die body another 1/8 of a turn (or less), and repeat the process with another fired case. This is repeated until the action will just close without resistance. When this has been accomplished, set the lock ring to secure the die in place. This method will ensure that the fired cases are resized with a minimum amount of headspace. This case has now been “custom fitted” to that particular chamber.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/index.cfm

Custom shell holders are made to give exact control on how far the shoulder of the case is bumped back for a custom fit in YOUR rifle.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201054345PM.jpg

Or you can raise your dies by placing shims under the dies lock ring to give you the correct cartridge headspace for your rifle.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201054719PM.jpg

And gauges to measure your cases after firing and resizing for the correct cartridge headspace.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/7-17-201055522PM.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/headspace_gauge_rs.jpg

Pushing the shoulder back too far on your cartridge cases will cause short case life and case head separations when the brass stretches and thins in the web area. ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/f55-movie-dsf1.gif

Certaindeaf
March 7, 2012, 04:30 PM
I don't do shell games.

kingmt
March 7, 2012, 08:44 PM
For those that don't know how to do it they make a tool for it.

fguffey
March 8, 2012, 06:21 AM
Ed,

That forum! This is from a question about punch primers, and the #1 answer should have been, FIRING PIN SPRING, they went straight to head space, then wanted the OP to purchase ‘Mo-Tools’, Years ago I was warned to never get involved in a fight between two Arabs, seems the logic says both will turn and attack me, I did not get involved in the 15 page assault you made on the forum, had I got involved, well, you understand, and note, when he furnished the link there were only 11 pages, I heard him holler for help, I hear you hollering for help, understand I can not help you.

Bozo699 Wayne ask:
Are you by chance related to Big Ed?
Wayne.




“except of course for Ed”
Bozo699, Who is Ed?

F. Guffey
Quote from: fguffey on 08:40 AM, 09/23/11
"except of course for Ed"

Bozo699, Who is Ed?

F. Guffey

Well I will tell you F.G he is a fella on here that makes no sense what so ever in his posts just like you, he likes to argue just like you appear to like it also. I remember a thread one time he was involved in about case lubing which I might add is a common practice, he just couldn't SHUT UP ABOUT IT!!! page upon page of his colorful illustrations and quotes from his gun Bibles, that's all you lack is the pictures and you could be his clone, here is a typical post of his and if you follow the entire thread on lubing cases you will see what I mean,...or not.


Big Stuff -- 6.5mm, 7mm, 30 Cal and up / experience with frozen bolts...from WAAAAYYYY TOO MUCH VARGET!!
« on: 10:25 AM, 06/03/11 »
Quote from: bozo699 on 10:36 PM, 06/02/11

I'll give you credit Ed, you never give up with the 1929 shooting bible and your personal vendetta against lubing cases for fire forming, I remember this thread the most, 11 pages and 4416 hits and half of them out of the 1929 gun bible, and other wonderful illustrations
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3754346.0.html

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3760779.15.html



”Are you by chance related to Big Ed?"

In defense of Big Ed? There are three I know of, one is in Kansas City, he is OK, problem, he does not answer the phone, no longer in service and he does not respond to email.

In my opinion there is one of the three that goes way out of his way to make himself look good at others expense, I understand conceited , big ego personalities that are self centered, in my opinion he can not help it.

I am impressed you and I agree, I have no ideal why you suggested I excluded anyone from the conversation.

Again, forgive.

F. Guffey"

And if you will thumb through those pages you will come to a question you ask about the reason the thread was resurrected, or something to that effect, they are bench ‘resters’, I shoot from a bench, they fire form, I form first then fire, they wanted me to get involved, the up side? There have been questions about locating dies for forming, fire forming is done for immediate self gratification, but when they start forming first I believe they will continue to fire form, and in doing so they will continue to lube their cases, as they explained to you, they are not shooting Mausers, Springfields etc., etc..

fguffey
March 8, 2012, 07:13 AM
Hawkins, I should have warned you, I come with baggage.

You were hi-jacked, you deserve the best answers and options, you have just been offered another option, Skip’s Shims, I do not make money from the sales of tools, as to Skip, I do not know him, meaning I have no motive, do not allow someone to intimidate you into limiting your options, after you purchase Skip’s shims you will still need to verify your adjustment with a feeler gage if the purpose is to create a gap between the bottom of the did and top of the shell holder. The question now is “Why purchases Skip’s shims if you are going to verify the adjustment.

Again, I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock ring, not easy for most to keep up with but the die has threads, the threads (incline plain), because of the threads on the die the die advances when turned, I advance the die first, make the adjustment, then secure the die to the press.

And this was about a press that does not cam over, one reloader did modify his press to get .001 thousands and no one measured the cam over they do not have but in the beginning all thought they did, and then there is still the part about the linkage at the bottom of the press getting tangled up when the ram is raised, no one removed the die in the top of their press, raised the ram and observed the ram kicking forward, or got under the press
and observed the ram being kicked back.

And no one wondered what was going on when the ram was raised while sizing a case. The ram in the video clearly shows the ram kicking forward, again, China got kicked in all 6 ‘k’nees.

In the beginning there was the 1/4 turn, 1/2 turn etc., now, when you see someone post about bumping the shoulder .002 thousands ask them how they acquired such precision, the best answer? “I made a wild guestimate of a turn”

F. Guffey

rbernie
March 8, 2012, 07:17 AM
This thread has far too much talking past each other to have any utility.

Closed.

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