.45 acp with moon clips in Taurus Judge


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hang fire
February 24, 2012, 10:24 PM
I am awaiting delivery of some Unique Tek five shot .45 acp moon clips for Taurus Judge. Was wondering is anyone has had any experiece with them?

Have read they may not work in all Judges, so only bought eight of them for a trial run.

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JShirley
February 25, 2012, 02:02 AM
You're firing .45 ACP in a Colt cylinder?

TennJed
February 25, 2012, 02:45 AM
I have wondered what makes the S&W govenor cylinder different than the Judge? The S&W will take 45acp with moon clips.

Does anyone know the differences

The Old Redneck
February 25, 2012, 04:48 AM
The Judge I have will take the same moon clips that fit the Taurus Tracker I have in .45 acp. I have shot it with several different 45 acp loads from 230 grain hardball to 180 grain lead Target loads. Off hand groups at 25 yards were in the 2 to 3" range same as colt rounds. The moon clips were quick to load and unload. A friend keeps a moon clip of acps handy for a quick backup load. The question of the thin cylinder walls on the Judge raises the question if the acp rounds running a higher chamber pressure would be safe? Load data for some colt loads that are not Ruger only loads runs with the acp pressures?
I do not know what your moon clips cost but the Taurus clips cost me about 1/2 what they cost for my Smith 45 acp revolver?

Stainz
February 25, 2012, 07:34 AM
I didn't know that the Judge had a vestigal rim ring to catch the .45 Colt/.410 shot shell rims on, a la the Governor. The rest of the cylinder entry being dished out would seat the .45 ACPs in their 'stellar' clip. As the .45 Colt SAAMI maximum chamber pressure is 14 kPSI - and .45 ACP is 21+ kPSI, you'd have to defer the safe use of the .45 ACP until you find the SAAMI max for .410 - something I don't know.

BTW, the 6-slot S&W 25/625/1917/Governor moonclips were available from their manufacturer, Ranch Products, for $35/100 delivered in blued steel. I had a friend who bought a 4" Taurus Tracker in .45 ACP years ago when they were dropped - the 'stellar' clips were hard to find and pricey then.

Stainz

tranders
February 25, 2012, 08:29 AM
Moon clips would not work with my Judge. Cylinder would'nt close.

rcmodel
February 25, 2012, 11:15 AM
+1

News to me any of them had the .029" extra headspace clearance for moon-clips if they hadn't been sent off and modified for them.

rc

hang fire
February 25, 2012, 02:28 PM
The Old Redneck: I do not know what your moon clips cost but the Taurus clips cost me about 1/2 what they cost for my Smith 45 acp revolver?


A four pac was tad over 9 bucks, got two pacs, will see how they do, if they work out will buy more. The Judge was bought by the wife and is her gun, so guess will have to get her permmision to use. I have scads of .45 acp rounds, they are easy and fast to reload on the Dillon Square Deal.

hang fire
February 25, 2012, 02:46 PM
News to me any of them had the .029" extra headspace clearance for moon-clips if they hadn't been sent off and modified for them.

The Judge cylinder chambers are not recessed for rims. The moon clips are very thin and with the .45 acp they occupy about the same space as the .45 LC rim.

Just screwing around one day I took a very small diameter o-ring that was a snug fit around the ..45 acp extraction groove. Tried it in the Judge and when chambered o-ring stopped case at chamber entry, was a close fit against the recoil shield but cylinder still rotated OK. Fired two rounds that way with no problem. Checked and found there were moon clips available for the Judge, so will try them.

Stainz
February 26, 2012, 08:49 AM
A .45 ACP round still has a rim thickness to contend with - it's just recessed to the case diameter. To properly support the .45 ACP round, a moonclip, in the S&W case, or 'stellar' clip, for the Taurus, must fit in the recessed slot forward of the rim. The cylinder's entry side must be spaced such that the rim thickness and moon/stellar clip are accommodated. Now, if a .45 Colt or .410 larger rim OD cartridge is inserted, it will be the clip thickness too far away from the recoil shield - the firing pin may just touch it - not soundly dimple it. To use a longer firing pin would help - with the .45 Colt/.410 - but might hole the higher pressure .45 ACP's primer. Leaving a vestige of the rimmed cartridge cylinder's OAL, an outer cylinder rim ring the height of the clip's thickness above the recessed cylinder, would accommodate the .45 ACPs in clips and regular .45 Colts (... and .410s, too!). This is done commonly to retrofit 'clipped .45 ACPs to Ruger .454 SRH's & .45 Colt RH's as well as .45 Colt S&W 25/625's.

Another problem with the Taurus is the clip cost & availability. To mimic my picture below, with a 625JM and 105 loaded moonclips - which fit in five layers of 21 loaded clips of ball ammo in a .223 metal ammo box - would cost $35, inc s/h, for the 100 extra 'clips.

http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u307/Stainz_2007/IMG_0594.jpg

At $9/4, or $2.25/ea, that's over $250, assuming even a teeny quantity break, for enough of the 5-slot clips to hold the 630 rounds that 105 6-slot S&W style clips hold. The Governor is <$200 more than the cheapest Judge I've seen lately - you'd save $ on the clips, if the Judge could take them, not to mention the increased dependability, etc, of the S&W. Just a suggestion. YMMV.

Stainz

PS Use your imagination... imagine the Governor in the above picture - not the 4" 625JM - although they are a similar size!

bassdogs
February 26, 2012, 10:48 AM
Am a Judge owner and am always amused at what some have to say and or try with one of them. With all that is good or as some believe bad with a Judge, I have to ask "why anyone would want to try an ammo type that the gun is not designed to shoot"? Kind of falls into the threads in Shotgun about the use of "cut shells". Is the question "can you" or is it "should you"?

IMHO you should use what the gun is designed for. There are dozens of options.

hang fire
February 26, 2012, 12:37 PM
Sorry to bust so many naysayer's bubbles, but the .45 acp moon clips fit and work just fine.

And as to the cost of said moon clips, why should that be your concern, when another, not you is paying the freight.

hang fire
February 26, 2012, 12:54 PM
With all that is good or as some believe bad with a Judge, I have to ask "why anyone would want to try an ammo type that the gun is not designed to shoot"?][/QUOTE

Uh, because they can.

[quote]IMHO you should use what the gun is designed for. There are dozens of options.[/I]

Everyone has opines, same as they have that much quoted bodily orifice.

skidder
February 26, 2012, 01:14 PM
The question of the thin cylinder walls on the Judge raises the question if the acp rounds running a higher chamber pressure would be safe?

As the .45 Colt SAAMI maximum chamber pressure is 14 kPSI - and .45 ACP is 21+ kPSI, you'd have to defer the safe use of the .45 ACP until you find the SAAMI max for .410 - something I don't know.

.410 Bore 2 1/2 in. 12,500
.410 Bore 3 in. 13,500

Unless you reload, not worth the risk.

Stainz
February 26, 2012, 03:28 PM
Thanks, skidder - that answers the question. Whether your Judge has enough slop to close the cylinder with moonclipped .45 ACPs or not, if it isn't specified for such use, they are a bad idea - 50% over design maximum pressure is not a great idea.

Speaking of slop, that late friend's 4" Tracker would fit and the cylinder would close with the thick-rimmed .45 Auto Rim cartridges. Years ago, I made up a dummy no primer or propellant .45 Auto Rim cartridge and visited the local store that had them at $279 on closeout. One out of three would close - the other two wouldn't. It was never advertised as using the .45 ARs - just the .45 ACPs in the stellar clips. The stellar clips looked thinner than the S&W style clips - but, I never mic-ed them. Still, that's sloppy!

If your Taurus Judge were rated for .45 ACP, it would be indicated as such somewhere on the revolver. Otherwise, you use such at a significant risk.

Stainz

PS Be sensible... be safe!

hang fire
February 26, 2012, 06:14 PM
As the .45 Colt SAAMI maximum chamber pressure is 14 kPSI - and .45 ACP is 21+ kPSI, you'd have to defer the safe use of the .45 ACP until you find the SAAMI max for .410 - something I don't know.

Get real, SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers) specs and pressures are for mass produced ammo, in other words the ammo has to be safe for use in the weakest of the weakest firearms still in use

Why is the SAAMI pressures given so low for the .45 LC, the same reason it is for the .45-70.

The .45 LC factory ammo has to be safe to use in Colt 1873 SA black powder frame guns made in 1873, the .45-70 has to be safe in an original Springfield 1873 trapdoor made in 1873.

There are .45 acp conversion cylinders made for the 1858 Remington C&B replicas, and they have a frame one hell of a lot weaker than the Taurus Judge.

I know bowhunters in Wyoming who carry the Judge for griz protection with the .45 LC loaded with Corbon 225 grain bullets at 32,000 psi and 1200 fps.

MCgunner
February 26, 2012, 06:33 PM
I know bowhunters in Wyoming who carry the Judge for griz protection

Damn, well, I guess I ain't with it, need to trade in my stainless Ruger Blackhawk for a judge or I ain't safe around Griz?

I get the point, though, gun can handle the pressure of a .45ACP. :D That's probably so, but I think those bow hunters are suicidal putting 32,000 CUP Ruger only loads in a Judge. JMHO, though.

MCgunner
February 26, 2012, 06:40 PM
BTW, isn't the +P max for .45 Colt 25,000 PSI? 32K seems a might much even for "Ruger only" loads.

ljnowell
February 26, 2012, 09:17 PM
MC, many published Ruger only loads stop at 25k, but its out there to 32k easily found. You still have a looong way to go before you damage a ruger blackhawk, even at 32k.

The Old Redneck
February 27, 2012, 01:07 AM
I shoot both the Smith and Taurus 45 acp revolvers, have owned several of both. The moon clips of both hold the case at different distances from the cylinder to the breech face of the revolvers. The Smith clips hold the cases higher, and the Smiths can use the thick rim auto rim ammo. The Taurus moon clips do not raise the case heads as much and the cylinder,breech face gap is too thin for auto rim cases. The gap is the thickness of the colt rim instead. The only Taurus Tracker in 45 acp that I know of that would take the auto rim had been modified. The auto rim thickness is .090 with a diameter of .516. The Colt rim thickness is .060 with a diameter of .512. The cylinder, breech face clearance on my Judge and a couple other Judges we measured were the same as the Trackers in 45 acp and 45 colt. The Judges would not take the auto rim ammo because of the rim being too thick. I shoot a lot of auto rim ammo in my Smiths, but they are the only guns I have it will fit. The Ruger and other revolvers in 45 acp do not have enough clearance for it to work. The Taurus that was modified to use it would bind with the cylinder hand hitting the thicker and larger in diameter rim. A company made some short 45 colt cases that were the same length as 45 acp cases and could be loaded with acp dies. They were made for cowboy action shooters and they will work in the 45 acp Trackers like AR cases in the Smith revolvers. The short cases were made before Trail boss powder came out to help with the double charge problem some people had. I bought my Judge for shooting snakes. It is always loaded with AA #8 or #9 shot and does a wonderful job, I am well pleased with it. I carry a 45 acp Glock and I'm happy with it. What I do not understand is the great lengths people go to to knock a brand or type gun. There are a lot of different guns I do not care for. Different rounds I am not wild about, but if someone else likes them fine. It is their money and time to spend as they choose. The Taurus guns I have bought have been great. Had less trouble with them than some Colts, Smiths, Rugers,etc I have had over the years. I go over every gun I buy the same way, brand does matter, and over the years I have passed on some of every brand. None of them are perfect, Taurus has made some junk and some good guns, I have not had a bad one, but I have not bought a bad gun in years. Checking before buying helps.

MCgunner
February 27, 2012, 12:39 PM
MC, many published Ruger only loads stop at 25k, but its out there to 32k easily found. You still have a looong way to go before you damage a ruger blackhawk, even at 32k.

Oh, this I am quite sure. :D That said, I don't handload that high. I love my Blackhawk and ain't in to sadomasochistic handloading. :D 1120 fps for a 300 grain XTP seems like would kill anything I'll ever shoot at in Texas, toughest of which would be a hog. I think someone shooting a 32,000 PSI load in a JUDGE, though, is getting a bit carried away and is pushing stress limits I wouldn't push with that gun.

Has the "raging judge" come out, yet? That one probably weighs as much as a Marlin Guide Gun, though. :D

hang fire
February 27, 2012, 12:57 PM
If 32,000 psi was over pressure for the Blackhawk, guess the .44 mag in them at 40,000 psi is a bomb.

MCgunner
February 27, 2012, 01:15 PM
.44 mag DOES have thicker chamber walls than the .45 Colt. And, the super blackhawk frame is a might stronger.

skidder
February 27, 2012, 11:29 PM
Call Taurus if you want, but the tracker cylinder is thin walled.
Here is your answer, but I'm not your mommy.

click on faq #2
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=62

hang fire
February 28, 2012, 12:23 PM
.44 mag DOES have thicker chamber walls than the .45 Colt. And, the super blackhawk frame is a might stronger.

True as to SBH and BH diff, but .357 operates at 36,000 psi in BH.

hang fire
February 28, 2012, 12:28 PM
Call Taurus if you want, but the tracker cylinder is thin walled.
Here is your answer, but I'm not your mommy.

Of course Taurus will say NO. But this is the day of the lawyers, where even Ruger stamps enough warnings onto their guns which would rival a novelette in length.

MCgunner
February 28, 2012, 10:23 PM
True as to SBH and BH diff, but .357 operates at 36,000 psi in BH.

Which has even thicker chamber walls.

MCgunner
February 28, 2012, 10:28 PM
From that link.....

2. Can I shoot your +P 45 Colt ammo in my Taurus Judge or my S&W Governor?


No. The Judge/Governor is not designed to be strong enough to use +P ammo. If you'd like to use very powerful loads in the Judge/Governor, use our items 3E, 3F, 3H, 3I and 3J. These five loads are safe to use in ANY 45 Colt firearm and are much more powerful than ordinary 45 Colt ammo. These five loads are also much more powerful than the 410 gauge slug loads you can fire in the Judge.

The Lone Haranguer
February 29, 2012, 12:41 PM
They may fit, but if it is supposed to be .45 Colt, .45 Auto is the wrong ammunition for it, AFAIC.

The Lone Haranguer
February 29, 2012, 12:44 PM
These five loads are also much more powerful than the 410 gauge slug loads you can fire in the Judge.
A .410" diameter slug down a .45-caliber barrel? :scrutiny: You would be lucky to even hit anything.

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