Your definition of DAO


PDA






MythBuster
February 25, 2012, 09:47 AM
I would like to hear your definition of DAO.

I would also like to hear how a certain very popular striker fired handgun that is carried at least 98% cocked can be called DAO.

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mavracer
February 25, 2012, 10:00 AM
By definition a single action trigger performs one single task releasing the hammer/striker from a cocked positiion.
A double action trigger performs two tasks bringing the hammer/striker to the cocked position and then releasing it.
DAO does not have SA capability.

balance 740
February 25, 2012, 10:06 AM
My definition of DAO would be any pistol that is completely decocked, until the trigger cocks and releases the hammer/striker and fires the pistol, on every shot.

I'd consider most of the pistols with constant triggers, with the same trigger pull from the first to the last shot, as constant action pistols, no matter if they start off pre-cocked or fully-cocked.

I believe "DA" and "DAO" can be used to describe a pistol like a Glock, by their definition, but it sort of makes terms like DA and DAO to be too vague to be used as a solid description about the actions of pistols.

jackpinesavages
February 25, 2012, 10:27 AM
Double Action Only, meaning the longer trigger pull of three action selections: DAO, SA, DAK.

hAkron
February 25, 2012, 10:32 AM
Double action, at least as I understand it, the action of the gun is used to set a striker or hammer into a cocked position (potential energy), then release the hammer or striker (kinetic energy). Where as sigle action assumes a manual (not using the action of the gun) to set the hammer into a cocked position. This would probably be a lot more clearly definable if not for strikers and odd ball actions types found in guns like the P7. Thinking in terms of old cowboy single action cowboy revolvers vs modern DA is an easiervway for me to relate to it. When I think if DAO I think more of internal/unexposed hammers that are fully at rest between shot, where a Glocks striker has some load on the spring after firing would make it, to my mind neither an SA/D, DAO, or SAO. It is impossible to fire an uncocked (trigger fully at rest) Glock, it is also impossible to fully cock a Glock and leave it fully cocked.

mavracer
February 25, 2012, 12:52 PM
My definition of DAO would be any pistol that is completely decocked, until the trigger cocks and releases the hammer/striker and fires the pistol, on every shot.
I believe "DA" and "DAO" can be used to describe a pistol like a Glock, by their definition, but it sort of makes terms like DA and DAO to be too vague to be used as a solid description about the actions of pistols.
By convoluting the definition of DA by requiring the second action of fully cocking the hammer/striker from a completely. Decocked position really opens a can of worms.
Now Smith and Colt DAs are no longer DA because their hammer blocks partially cock the hammer a bit when the trigger is all the way foward. A Smith 1076 wouldn't be DA on the first shot when the decocker is used because it only. Drops the hammer to half cock. And dang my CZs are really confusing, I can carry it cocked and locked for a SA first shot or if I can let the hammer all the way down for a DA or I. Caan lower it to half cock and it's like a constant trigger action.
Wouldn't it be better to say a Glock is double action because the trigger performs two actions and since this is it's only mode it's double action only.

ExMachina
February 25, 2012, 01:00 PM
I would like to hear your definition of DAO.

I would also like to hear how a certain very popular striker fired handgun that is carried at least 98% cocked can be called DAO.

Applying terminology that evolved out of hammer-fired revolvers to striker-fired semi-autos is never going to lead to a clear-cut answer.

Zerodefect
February 25, 2012, 01:22 PM
My definition:
S&W J frame revolvers
Keltec pistols
Rugers Keltec copies



IMO, striker fired pistols are only called "DAO" to please the dogmatic fools that choose weapons for police departments. For a period oftime PD's were huge on wanting DAO guns. They thought they were "safer" or something.

Hard to believe we were ever that untrained back then......

Jim NE
February 25, 2012, 01:27 PM
My Sigma isn't a DAO pistol, it just more or less functions like one....most of the time.

My KelTec is a DAO. The two guns are used the same way, for my purposes anyway.

A DAO pistol can never have a loose, ""disengaged" trigger (except when you're letting the trigger reset itself immediately after a shot).

Jim NE
February 25, 2012, 01:40 PM
Hey speaking of this, I saw something on the net about a "DAO" Ruger P-95. Does Ruger still make this model? Or is it some sort of aftermarket alteration?

Just curious. The reason I don't shoot my P-95 more often is because it's DA/SA.

mavracer
February 25, 2012, 02:42 PM
My Sigma isn't a DOA pistol
They were most certianly Dead on Arrival. lol. sorry I got fat fingers too.

balance 740
February 25, 2012, 03:26 PM
By convoluting the definition of DA by requiring the second action of fully cocking the hammer/striker from a completely. Decocked position really opens a can of worms.

Wouldn't it be better to say a Glock is double action because the trigger performs two actions and since this is it's only mode it's double action only.

I have to agree, but only because I can't think of a better alternative at the moment. But as vague as the term DA has become, what good is it when using it to describe something?

I have a hard time calling a pistol that is 98% pre-cocked, a DA or DAO pistol, just like I have a hard time calling a DA revolver pre-cocked, even if it is technically, by definition. Technically, are there any modern SA pistols, since almost all modern SA pistols will push a FPB out of the way and lower the sear with a trigger pull before firing?

Should series 80 1911s be considered DA?

nipprdog
February 25, 2012, 05:05 PM
striker fired handgun that is carried at least 98% cocked

Brand??? Since it's not Glock, I'm guessing XD????? :confused:

Nakanokalronin
February 25, 2012, 05:17 PM
DAO means the trigger pull will do more then one action. Considering the Glock trigger pulls the striker back slightly and then releases it, it can be defined as DAO weather it's a short pull or not. Some guns may seem like DAO because of the trigger set-up but their trigger pulls only release the striker/hammer making them SAO.

Of course, some are more obvious then others but it all comes down to the mechanics of the fire control group, not how the trigger feels when you pull it.

Jim NE
February 25, 2012, 05:23 PM
They were most certianly Dead on Arrival.

:) Every time I try to write DAO, I WANT to write DOA...but usually catch myself. Despite their rough early years and my own brief problems, I actually like my Sigma.

2wheels
February 25, 2012, 05:33 PM
People call Glocks (and some similar guns) double action, and they may even be technically considered DAO, but they aren't IMHO. They occupy a middle ground between DAO and SAO because of their partially cocked striker.

Call them what you will, I basically consider Glocks to be hammerless single action only pistols with a crappy trigger pull. I refer to them as striker fired to set them apart from more tradition action types.

If I pull the trigger and have a light strike and can't pull the trigger again to restrike the same round without racking the slide, it isn't double action.

Nakanokalronin
February 25, 2012, 05:54 PM
2 wheels, technically your talking about a DAO pull with second strike capability. It can be confusing at times since there are slight variances in how the triggers are defined and striker fired guns make it much more difficult.

I guess you can say that there are striker fired DAO guns and hammer fired DAO guns.

DAO striker: trigger pull does 2 actions, however the slide needs to be racked by hand or by firing in order to go to the next DAO pull.

DAO hammer: trigger does 2 actions, however another DAO pull can be accomplished weather the slide has been racked or not.

SAO striker or hammer: trigger pull does one action and needs the slide to be racked by hand or by firing in order to reset the striker or hammer to provide another SAO pull.

balance 740
February 25, 2012, 06:14 PM
Brand??? Since it's not Glock, I'm guessing XD?????

The S&W M&P is considered to be a DAO pistol because when the trigger is pulled and the sear releases the striker, the striker moves rearward a fraction of a millimeter due to a positive sear engagement. It is as close to 100% cocked as you can get without it actually being 100% cocked.

CZ-75 pistols have an even more positive sear engagement when cocked, and you can actually see the hammer cam back when the trigger is pulled, yet when you cock the hammer on a CZ-75, the pistol is considered to be in SA mode. Go figure.

2wheels
February 25, 2012, 06:23 PM
2 wheels, technically your talking about a DAO pull with second strike capability. It can be confusing at times since there are slight variances in how the triggers are defined and striker fired guns make it much more difficult.

I guess you can say that there are striker fired DAO guns and hammer fired DAO guns.

DAO striker: trigger pull does 2 actions, however the slide needs to be racked by hand or by firing in order to go to the next DAO pull.

DAO hammer: trigger does 2 actions, however another DAO pull can be accomplished weather the slide has been racked or not.

SAO striker or hammer: trigger pull does one action and needs the slide to be racked by hand or by firing in order to reset the striker or hammer to provide another SAO pull.
DAO has traditionally always meant a gun that is able to be cocked and fired merely by pulling the trigger, calling a Glock DAO confuses the terminology we have long used to tell different action types apart. It shares some characteristics with traditional DAO handguns, but it's something different.

walt629
February 25, 2012, 06:28 PM
DAO = double action ONLY. A weapon that cannot be used as a single action.

Single action = Ruger single 6. For the gun to be discharged the hammer must be drawn back and the trigger pulled (short trigger pull) to released the hammer to fire the ammunition . Pulling the trigger will not cock the hammer or advance the ammunition to the next cartridge.

Double action = Colt Python. Able to discharge weapon by either pulling the trigger to cock and release the hammer (long trigger pull) or pull the hammer back and release it with a trigger pull (short trigger pull). Both actions will advance the next cartridge to firing position.

Double action ONLY = Colt Detective wo exposed hammer. The ONLY way to fire the weapon is with a "long trigger pull" or DAO action. The act of pulling the trigger cocks the weapon, advances the ammunition to the firing position and releases the hammer to fir the ammunition.

The above can be applied to semi autos also by examining the way the actions work.

It would help if you gave the name of the certain very popular striker fired handgun

GLOOB
February 25, 2012, 06:35 PM
IMO

DA: striker/hammer can be partially pretensioned and/or lack second strike capability, like on a Keltec P3AT/LCP or a GLOCK, as long as the gun would 100% not fire a sensitive Federal primer from the pretensioned position.

I would also like to hear how a certain very popular striker fired handgun that is carried at least 98% cocked can be called DAO.
M&P being labeled double-action is an affront to common sense.

OTOH, I don't think it matters a sniff, one way or another, as long as the gun has good passive safeties on it. As long as the M&P is safe to carry 98% cocked, it should be able to compete in the same contracts and gun games as a Glock. So it's a matter of practical distinction. The trigger pull is decently long/heavy, and the gun is safe, so who cares? If the terminology is shifting to address the more practical aspects, then that's ok by me. Is it fair that the XD missed the boat on this one? No not really. But department requirements and gun game rules are all arbitrary, anyway.

Nakanokalronin
February 25, 2012, 06:45 PM
DAO has traditionally always meant a gun that is able to be cocked and fired merely by pulling the trigger, calling a Glock DAO confuses the terminology we have long used to tell different action types apart. It shares some characteristics with traditional DAO handguns, but it's something different.

And that's why striker fired guns have confused things even more. When it was mainly hammer fired handguns, the terminology of SAO,DAO and SA/DA where pretty straight forward but it was still a technical term. With striker fired pistols, the terms are a little more vague.

GLOOB
February 25, 2012, 06:51 PM
It's not just striker-fired guns. Some hammer-fired guns are also pretensioned and lack second strike capability (Keltec P3AT/Ruger LCP). But they're much better described as DAO than SA, IMO.

JohnBT
February 25, 2012, 06:55 PM
"IMO, striker fired pistols are only called "DAO" to please the dogmatic fools "

What is it with all the insults today? Somebody wasn't raised right or is just having a real bad day.

JohnBT
February 25, 2012, 07:03 PM
"calling a Glock DAO confuses the terminology "

Not really. Everyone I know can keep it all straight in terms of practical functioning. In everyday terms, it works like a DAO revolver - your choice is pull the trigger or don't pull the trigger. It certainly doesn't work like any DA/SA or SA gun I know of and let you decock it. Well, unless by decocking you count pulling the trigger on a hopefully empty chamber to disassemble it.

John

beatledog7
February 25, 2012, 07:07 PM
Why do we need to have just a few categories and then try to force every trigger system into one of them?

Nakanokalronin
February 25, 2012, 08:18 PM
Why do we need to have just a few categories and then try to force every trigger system into one of them?
I think because it makes it easier for someone to know off the bat what type of trigger a gun has without looking into the mechanics of it. The only way to really know is to look at the internals to see exactly what's going on. I like to know the mechanics of any pistol I'm interested in or own but most would rather not do the research. The way a firearm is designated can also have an effect if it would be considered for a LE agency.

Bottom line, just look at the mechanics of a gun and see how many actions the trigger pull provides and determine for yourself what it is. In reality, the terms are basic and one DAO/SAO gun will not act EXACTLY like another, but they will fall into the same category.

MythBuster
February 26, 2012, 05:48 PM
GLOOB said, "M&P being labeled double-action is an affront to common sense."

Exactly what this is all about.

S&W and some gun writers insist the M&P is DAO. That is 100% BS. A flat out lie.

MythBuster
February 26, 2012, 05:52 PM
Balance 740 said, "My definition of DAO would be any pistol that is completely decocked, until the trigger cocks and releases the hammer/striker and fires the pistol, on every shot."

Right on. I know if I bought a pistol because it was supposed to be a DAO because DAO is what I wanted and after getting it home and taking a close look at how it worked and I found out it was basically a 98 or 99% precocked action I would not be happy.

MythBuster
February 26, 2012, 05:57 PM
Zerodefect said, "IMO, striker fired pistols are only called "DAO" to please the dogmatic fools that choose weapons for police departments. For a period oftime PD's were huge on wanting DAO guns. They thought they were "safer" or something."

That is exactly right. For a while many PD's would not let their people carry a SA pistol. Now because S&W lies about their M&P these PD"s can carry their SA gun.

Pyro
February 26, 2012, 05:58 PM
DAO=pull trigger, go bang bang.

nipprdog
February 26, 2012, 09:21 PM
S&W and some gun writers insist the M&P is DAO. That is 100% BS. A flat out lie.

Links?????

Not argueing, just curious, since my SIL just bought one. ;)

wally
February 26, 2012, 09:35 PM
My operational definition is if the gun can deliver a second strike on a primer with nothing more than pulling the trigger then its double action.

Revolvers are where the concept comes from although they also rotate a fresh cartridge into firing position with the second trigger pull -- an obvious benefit.

To me the "second strike" capability only matters when shooting reloads (not fully seated primers happen) or old surplus ammo where primers start to lose their sensitivity and a second strike will often set them off. This would happen to my TTC with the Romanian surplus ammo maybe 1 in 400, being SA the second strike is easily given by thumb cocking the hammer (after waiting to be sure its not a squib). I find it interesting that he much older Polish surplus ammo has much lower dud (if it doesn't go with a second strike) or rounds needing a second strike.

With fresh factory ammo "tap-rack-bang" is a better solution than dumbly pulling the trigger again on a click instead of BANG!

MythBuster
February 26, 2012, 10:20 PM
links? If your SIL has one look at it yourself. After you do you will see for yourself then you will know.

MythBuster
February 26, 2012, 10:42 PM
"Applying terminology that evolved out of hammer-fired revolvers to striker-fired semi-autos is never going to lead to a clear-cut answer."

Striker or hammer they are still the same. A striker fired gun can still be either a SA or a DAO.

If it is carried more or less fully cocked it is SA.

JohnBT
February 26, 2012, 10:47 PM
"I know if I bought a pistol because it was supposed to be a DAO "

It would be your own darn fault for not researching it or at least looking at the gun first before you bought it. I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for you.

The Lone Haranguer
February 26, 2012, 10:55 PM
The pre-set striker (and sometimes hammer) systems, which are technically neither DA nor SA, do blur the line. I would say if pulling the trigger performs any cocking action, AFAIC it is a DAO. I would make a further division: short stroke vs. long stroke. A Glock is a short stroke; a Kahr or S&W Third Generation model (with the pre-set hammer DAO) is a long stroke.

MythBuster
February 26, 2012, 10:56 PM
I did not buy one. I don't intend to ever buy one. My point is they should not call them DAO when they are clearly not.

MythBuster
February 26, 2012, 10:58 PM
"I would say if pulling the trigger performs any cocking action, AFAIC it is a DAO."

OK then you will have to call the SKS rifle and the military trigger on a AR-15 DAO.

The trigger pull on these actualy has more "cocking action" than the M&P.

wickedsprint
February 26, 2012, 11:02 PM
My definition is simple. If double action, The trigger accomplishes two actions. In my opinion the Glock is technically a DAO with a light trigger pull that has the same manual of arms as a SAO.

MythBuster
February 26, 2012, 11:03 PM
"The pre-set striker (and sometimes hammer) systems, which are technically neither DA nor SA, do blur the line"

I agree somewhat. If the striker is "cocked" enough when the gun is carried that the pistol could fire if the striker fell from it's carry position then it could be called SA.

The trigger pull on the M&P moves the striker about .006 or so.

wickedsprint
February 26, 2012, 11:04 PM
"I would say if pulling the trigger performs any cocking action, AFAIC it is a DAO."

OK then you will have to call the SKS rifle and the military trigger on a AR-15 DAO.



Not sure how an AR15 could be a DAO, does the trigger do something in addition to dropping the cocked hammer?

The Lone Haranguer
February 26, 2012, 11:16 PM
OK then you will have to call the SKS rifle and the military trigger on a AR-15 DAO.

The trigger pull on these actualy has more "cocking action" than the M&P.
:scrutiny: I am skeptical that a two-stage trigger performs any hammer cocking action on those rifles. But I'm not a "rifle guy," so I could be wrong.

balance 740
February 26, 2012, 11:20 PM
The point is that almost any pistol designed recently could be considered "DAO" now, where 50 years ago, "DAO" could be used as a specific description of a trigger action.

Whether or not common sense came into the decision making process or not, the M&P, with it's almost 100% pre cocked striker is considered a DAO pistol. That alone tells me that the "DAO" description doesn't mean much any more.

It can no longer be used as a specific description of a trigger action if the term DAO can be used to describe the vast majority of striker fired pistols that have been designed in the last 30 years, whether or not they are DAO by definition.

That is my only point.

56hawk
February 26, 2012, 11:29 PM
Wow, there is a lot of confusion on this thread. Surprisingly Wikipedia has a really good page on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_%28firearms%29#Double-action_only

To summarize though a DAO trigger cocks and releases the hammer/striker with every pull while not having the capability of being cocked into a single action mode. Glocks and similar guns have what is know as a pre-set trigger and the trigger can't be pulled when decocked.

Also striker or hammer fired is independent of trigger type. All types of triggers can be found with striker or hammer fired pistols.

MythBuster
February 27, 2012, 09:35 AM
"I am skeptical that a two-stage trigger performs any hammer cocking action on those rifles. But I'm not a "rifle guy," so I could be wrong."

You are wrong. Both the military trigger on an AR and most SKS rifles actually pull the hammer to the rear to some degree.

It is a safety feature to make it more difficult for the hammer to fall accidentally.

Not all SKS rifles do this because of variations in how they are made but they are ALL supposed to do this.

MythBuster
February 27, 2012, 09:43 AM
"Whether or not common sense came into the decision making process or not, the M&P, with it's almost 100% pre cocked striker is considered a DAO pistol. That alone tells me that the "DAO" description doesn't mean much any more.".

Someone else pointed out the real reason for this. It is all about lying about the design so some PD's and those shooters who don't want a SA will buy their guns.

More people than you would think will not carry a SA pistol. Many people simply are afraid of them.

Also more people than you think can not look at a gun such as the M&P and understand it is almost completly precocked.

S&W is not alone in this. Styer did it with their M series and when SA Inc first started importing the XD they did it. Today SA Inc no longer makes that claim and I am not sure if Steyr still does.

MythBuster
February 27, 2012, 10:01 AM
Actually this DAO BS first started with the Steyr M series pistol. Steyr claimed it is DAO. A few years ago when they first released this pistol a lot of people were buying them and there was a huge debate on the net about them not being a DAO.

It seemed that only one or two people had enough brains to examine the pistol for themselves so the vast majority of people stuck to the thought they were DAO.

One poster said there was a simple test to find out for sure. He said take a thin object and place it between the slide and frame up against the rear of the striker and slowly pull the trigger. If in fact the gun had any DOA qualities you should be able to see and feel any additional rearward movement of the striker.

Everyone still refused to do such a test and still insisted their gun was DAO.

I did not have access to a Steyr at the time so I did not know who to believe. About a year later my cousin bought one. One of the first things I did was do this simple test. The trigger pull did not move the striker any distance to the rear that could be seen or felt so the gun is clearly a SA.

JohnBT
February 27, 2012, 10:42 AM
"Also more people than you think can not look at a gun such as the M&P and understand it is almost completly precocked."

What's the point? Is it SA? No. Is it DA/SA? No? What's left?

I just don't understand your anger about something so simple.

"Also more people than you think can not look at a gun such as the M&P and understand it is almost completly precocked."

Could you the first time you saw one on the shelf or in an ad? I don't even own one, but I can read the manual on line.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/M&P_Pistol_Manual_10-30-10.pdf

"While holding the grip firmly, pull the trigger fully to the rear. As the trigger is
drawn fully to the rear, the striker assembly is released, striking
the cartridge primer."

MythBuster
February 27, 2012, 12:39 PM
"I just don't understand your anger about something so simple."

Anger? I pointed out that two gun manufacturers lied about their product. I really don't care because I am not going to buy one.

I said IF I had bought one of these guns because I wanted a DAO and later discovered they were SA I would have been angry.

MythBuster
February 27, 2012, 12:46 PM
"Could you the first time you saw one on the shelf or in an ad? I don't even own one, but I can read the manual on line."

Within 30 seconds after I picked up my first M&P I knew it was not a DAO. Same with the Styer.

JohnBT
February 27, 2012, 06:37 PM
So you decided it was SA or DA/SA? You're beating a dead horse.

GLOOB
February 28, 2012, 12:58 AM
?!?? Obviously SA. There's nothing DA/SA about the M&P. There's nothing DA, at all.
What's the point? Is it SA? No.
How do you answer no to this question?

Forget the AR and the AK. If this qualifies as a double action trigger, then nearly all SA guns are really DAO. The 1911 is DAO. It's basic gunsmithing 101. When you cut a sear, you fudge the geometry a little so that it has to overcome the hammer in order to release, and not the other way around. This way it's less likely to go off if dropped, and when you squeeze the trigger almost to the breaking point but then let go, it resets instead of hanging precariously on the edge. How, exactly, is the M&P different than a 1911 in the way the sear releases the striker/hammer?

For those that say the trigger performs 2 actions, the 1911 series 80 easily qualifies for this definition, too, no matter how you slice it.

FTR, I'm not angry. I'm just curious. :)

JohnKSa
February 28, 2012, 01:43 AM
Single action. The trigger releases the energy required to fire the gun, however that energy must be stored by another method since when operating in single action, the trigger is capable of only a single action--releasing energy.

Double action. The trigger performs the double actions of storing and releasing the energy required to fire the gun.

Double Action/Single Action. A gun that is designed to offer the shooter the ability to operate the gun as either a double action or a single action to fire any particular shot.

Double Action Only. A gun that can operate as a double action but that has no capability to operate as a single action.

Single Action Only. A gun that can only be operated as a single action as opposed to a DA/SA type design.

When classifying a gun, there are three keys:

1. Look at all the definitions.
2. Look at all the definitions from both the positive and negative side.
3. Understand that not every gun will fit into one of the categories.

For example, a gun that must be partially cocked before the trigger can have an effect, doesn't fully fit the definition of double action because some of the energy required to fire the gun wasn't stored by the trigger pull. However the fact that it requires something else to store some of the energy doesn't automatically mean that the trigger can't be involved in the energy storage process at all. If the trigger action also stores part of the energy required to fire the gun then the gun isn't single action either.

In other words, the fact that a gun isn't double action doesn't automatically make it a single action, nor does the fact that a gun doesn't properly fit in the single action category force it to fit the double action definition.

Finally, the fact that there is often some minor motion of the hammer or striker in a single action design when the trigger is pulled is really not relevant. It's not at all difficult to distinguish between incidental movement as a consequence of the process of releasing a hammer or striker versus movement that is actually tensioning the hammer or striker spring with the goal of adding energy to the primer strike.

Yes, there are some guns on the market that are improperly classified as DAO, in my opinion.

Guns4Fun
March 1, 2012, 12:46 AM
The Walther PPS can be decocked by removing the backstrap, even when loaded. It's unnerving to let the striker go like this, but for me has never fired. This supports the idea that the partially cocked DAO striker-based pistol can't hit a primer with enough force to fire, i.e. When dropped, etc.

The PPS will cock with a very minimal racking, as well. No need to eject to cock.

GLOOB
March 1, 2012, 03:08 AM
Erm, the firing pin safety is on when you decock the gun like that. Unless you remove the FP safety, you're not testing the ability of the gun to fire from the preset condition. If you do so, please don't use live ammunition!

cfullgraf
March 1, 2012, 08:54 AM
I read an article a couple years ago that the gun scribe describe auto pistol actions as "single action, double action and striker fired". Unfortunately, I forget who it was but it made sense to me.

While I take much of what is posted on Wikipedia with a bit of grain of salt, their description of gun actions does make sense.

Pre-set seems to be a good description for many of the striker fired pistols on the market today.

Wow, there is a lot of confusion on this thread. Surprisingly Wikipedia has a really good page on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_%28firearms%29#Double-action_only

MythBuster
March 1, 2012, 09:45 AM
"Forget the AR and the AK. If this qualifies as a double action trigger, then nearly all SA guns are really DAO. The 1911 is DAO. It's basic gunsmithing 101. When you cut a sear, you fudge the geometry a little so that it has to overcome the hammer in order to release, and not the other way around. This way it's less likely to go off if dropped, and when you squeeze the trigger almost to the breaking point but then let go, it resets instead of hanging precariously on the edge. How, exactly, is the M&P different than a 1911 in the way the sear releases the striker/hammer?"

On the 1911 this action is so slight it can't be seen or felt. On other guns such as the military trigger on the AR-15 it is very obvious if you look.

The only way you can see it on the M&P is to field strip the gun and watch the action of the sear. By judging this by sight alone and using a feeler gauge to help estimate the travel I would say the the trigger pull moved the striker to the rear about .006. Someday I will use a dial indicator and find out exactly. .006 is about the thickness of two or three sheets of paper tightly pressed togather.

My point with the AR is the trigger pull on the AR moves the hammer to the rear MUCH more than the trigger pull moves the striker to the rear on the M&P.

I am guessing at least 4 or 5 times as much.

MythBuster
March 1, 2012, 09:55 AM
No matter how you slice it if a gun is described as DAO a reasonably intelligent person with general gun knowledge would expect that the gun in question is not carried with the hammer or striker precocked enough for it to fire if the hammer or striker fell from it's carry position.



I don't feel this way but recently I have seen posts on the net and personally met a few people who under no circumstances would they carry a precocked SA pistol.

If they feel that way then so be it. If they want a DAO pistol then by all means they should have one. The problem is S&W is flat out LYING about their pistol just so they can sell it to PD's and people like this.

JohnBT
March 1, 2012, 10:25 AM
"a reasonably intelligent person"

Like you, right? And anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot, right? That's what you're saying.

John

P.S. - I have a question. Why did you title this thread "Your definition of DAO"? You don't seem to really care what anyone thinks if they don't agree with you.

balance 740
March 1, 2012, 11:06 AM
"a reasonably intelligent person"

Like you, right? And anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot, right? That's what you're saying.

John

P.S. - I have a question. Why did you title this thread "Your definition of DAO"? You don't seem to really care what anyone thinks if they don't agree with you.

But JohnBT, do you disagree with Mythbuster?

Does the M&P fall under the DAO description in your opinion?

I think Mythbuster was just trying to make a point. He started out this thread wanting to hear about how "a certain very popular striker fired handgun that is carried at least 98% cocked can be called DAO."

MythBuster
March 1, 2012, 11:56 AM
"Like you, right? And anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot, right? That's what you're saying.'

So far no one has made a case showing that a 98 or 99% precocked action can be called DAO.

So far no one has said that if they bought a pistol that was considered DAO they would expect it to be 98 or 99% precocked.

No normal intelligent person who understands gun design would be expected to feel that way mostly because since firearms have been in existence the term DAO means the trigger pull both cocks and fires the gun.



If you are trying to tell us the M&P is a DAO then perhaps you are not an idiot but you believe WE are.

MythBuster
March 1, 2012, 11:57 AM
"I think Mythbuster was just trying to make a point. He started out this thread wanting to hear about how "a certain very popular striker fired handgun that is carried at least 98% cocked can be called DAO."

And so far no one has explained this to us.

MythBuster
March 1, 2012, 12:04 PM
deleted

MythBuster
March 1, 2012, 01:05 PM
Lets say you have a Toyota truck for sale. It has a V6 engine.

Everytime someone calls you about the truck they tell you they wanted a 4 cylinder so they don't want your truck.

So later on you really need to sell this and a guy come alone that wants a 4 cylinder but he knows nothing about such things so he can't tell the difference even when he looks at the engine.

He asks you "is it a 4 cylinder?". You reply YES IT HAS 4 CYLINDERS so he buys it.


Did you lie to him? Yes and no. It does have 4 cylinders but it does have two more that you did not tell him about.

This is sort of like what S&W and the gun writers paid by S&W are doing to you.

They are using this sort of "logic" to claim their gun is DAO.

cfullgraf
March 1, 2012, 01:14 PM
But, none of it works if it does not cam over.:)

GLOOB
March 1, 2012, 06:19 PM
P.S. - I have a question. Why did you title this thread "Your definition of DAO"? You don't seem to really care what anyone thinks if they don't agree with you.
Take it easy. There are lots of different opinions here, which have all been respected for what they are. Lots of different views, with lots of different reasoning. No one's right. No one's wrong. You're the one that challenged someone else's view, but yet you haven't even supplied any reasoning behind your disagreement. If you actually supplied your own definition of DAO, then at least we'd have a starting point to have a semi-intelligent discussion. You haven't. Like the title says, "What's YOUR definition of DAO." It starts there. YOU'RE the one disagreeing when someone else has posted their view, and yet you haven't explained your own.

Which begs the question, why are you disagreeing? The only thing we can tell from your posts, it that you don't think the M&P is SA. But you haven't explained why you think that. For all we know, the extent of your reasoning is "because S&W says so." I realize you cited the manual. But that excerpt you quoted seems to directly contradict your opinion. "When you pull the trigger, the striker is released" seems to meet nearly every single participant of this thread's definition of SA. In fact, when you made that post, I assumed you agreed with the OP, but that he shoulda read the manual before being duped. Now you've made it clear that your stance on DAO is completely unclear.

PapaG
March 1, 2012, 08:39 PM
I keep things simple when talking with customers.
A. Single action=gun must be manually cocked (hammer) for each shot
B, Striker fired=guns like Glocks, XDs and others where there is no hammer per se and the trigger releases, via the sear, the striker. Same pull for each shot.
C. Double action=can cock it or fire it by pulling the trigger for first shot (in autos) or for successive shots in revolvers
D. DAO=revolver modified so you can't cock it, or a few designated models of Ruger and Sig and maybe a few others which have a hammer but it always requires the "full pull".
There may be exceptions.

fastbolt
March 1, 2012, 09:22 PM
I'm not going to wade through all the pages on this topic. Silly.

Like it or not, the gun companies & BAFTE are pretty much only concerned with their definitions, not mine or that of anyone else.

If you don't like what a particular design is called by the company engineers who designed it, buy something else.

I've listened to some self-proclaimed experts want to argue that the engineers who designed some semiauto pistol or toher were totally wrong in their identification and designation of the design & operation. Hey, tell them they're wrong ...

An increasing number of the latest pistol designs no longer fit in the earlier, commonly accepted, traditional pigeon-holes when it comes to labeling their designs and functions.

Whenever I've gone through armorer classes for some of the various big names in the business, it's just not occurred to me to take it upon myself to argue with how they've labeled the operation of their firearms.

Just about the time you get comfortable with some generalizations, some company comes along with a new twist. :scrutiny:

They are what they are, and the people that design and manufacture them can call them whatever they want.

As long as I can understand how to safely operate them ... shoot them ... maintain, troubleshoot & repair them ... I'm good with it.

GLOOB
March 1, 2012, 09:37 PM
^ TDLR, DAO means w/e "they" want it to, so get over the fact that "DAO" is meaningless.

I've listened to some self-proclaimed experts want to argue that the engineers who designed some semiauto pistol or toher were totally wrong in their identification and designation of the design & operation. Hey, tell them they're wrong ...
You say this like the inventor is the only person in the world who can figure out how their gun actually works. As if it's a magic box that no one else will ever open and look at and figure out. I wonder if that's how 99% of folks go through life.

balance 740
March 1, 2012, 10:07 PM
I'm not going to wade through all the pages on this topic. Silly.

Like it or not, the gun companies & BAFTE are pretty much only concerned with their definitions, not mine or that of anyone else.

I agree, but I think that the OP started this thread because he also agrees with you.

He had a question about the trigger action of a pistol and asked a question on a gun forum.

If you don't like what a particular design is called by the company engineers who designed it, buy something else.

I've listened to some self-proclaimed experts want to argue that the engineers who designed some semiauto pistol or toher were totally wrong in their identification and designation of the design & operation. Hey, tell them they're wrong ...

I believe it was deliberate. I believe they already know. I don't believe I'm an expert.

An increasing number of the latest pistol designs no longer fit in the earlier, commonly accepted, traditional pigeon-holes when it comes to labeling their designs and functions.

I agree. I believe they should have made a whole new category for these newer designs instead of using the traditional trigger action designations.

They are what they are, and the people that design and manufacture them can call them whatever they want.

As long as I can understand how to safely operate them ... shoot them ... maintain, troubleshoot & repair them ... I'm good with it.

Me too. I believe they can call them whatever they want, and they do call them whatever they want, which is what is making the terms like DA, DAO, and SA lose their meaning and lose their purpose as a form of a specific description of a trigger action.

If I liked the M&P enough, I would still buy it, but I wouldn't consider it a DAO pistol no matter how much I liked it.

Bobo
March 1, 2012, 10:53 PM
I see it this way...

The terms "DA" and "DAO" are interchangeable. They have the exact same definition.

Definition:
In a DA/DAO trigger system a single pull of the trigger fully cocks the hammer or striker, or finishes cocking the hammer or striker (action 1); then releases the hammer or striker (action 2).

This is the true definition, but as such does not describe well the fact that most DA/DAO guns that cock the hammer or striker fully before releasing it often have a noticeably longer and heavier trigger pull than those that only finish cocking the hammer or striker before releasing it.

Perhaps we need two terms such as: "FDA" (Full Double Action), and "SDA" (Semi Double Action) for more accurate descriptions.

Bobo

MythBuster
March 1, 2012, 11:01 PM
"If I liked the M&P enough, I would still buy it, but I wouldn't consider it a DAO pistol no matter how much I liked it."

So would I. But I have shot them and they hold no advantage over anything else so I have no need for one.

Also they would have to be a very exceptional pistol for me to buy one after the company that makes it thinks they have to lie about to in order to sell it.

MythBuster
March 1, 2012, 11:07 PM
"You say this like the inventor is the only person in the world who can figure out how their gun actually works. As if it's a magic box that no one else will ever open and look at and figure out. I wonder if that's how 99% of folks go through life."

You could be correct. I would say the majority of gun owners don't have a clue how their guns really work just like the majority of drivers don't have a clue how the engine in their cars work.

I do this sort of thing for a living and I started taking things apart when I was 5 years old trying to see how they worked so I look at things differently.

MythBuster
March 1, 2012, 11:14 PM
"Perhaps we need two terms such as: "FDA" (Full Double Action), and "SDA" (Semi Double Action) for more accurate descriptions."

OK then someone has to deciede how "precocked" an action must be before it can be called either DA or SA.

The trigger pull on the M&P moves the striker to the rear about an additional .006 or so and they call it DAO. So what is the "cut off point" before it is SA?

.005, .002 .0000000001?

There are actions everyone calls SA that move the hammer more to the rear than the M&P trigger moves it's striker. So so do we now have to label the AR-15 trigger DAO?

fastbolt
March 2, 2012, 12:37 AM
I wasn't directing any of my comments to a specific post/poster. I didn't have any particular poster in mind when writing them.

This perennial topic is one of those that hardly ever arrives at a definitive conclusion that satisfies everyone.

As a firearms instructor of more than 20 years experience (and an armorer who's attended more than a Baker's Dozen classes), I'd not disagree that a respectable number of pistol owners/shooters probably lack a basic understanding of how their pistols technically function (let alone the functioning intricacies). I've listened to folks that didn't know the cycle of operation of a semiauto firearm ... and others who were well versed in it, but disagreed on which "step" should be considered the "first" step in the cycle (wanna start with "feed" or "fire"? :neener: ).

I've certainly encountered at least my fair share of firearms instructors who only had a rudimentary understanding of how different firearms operated ... which is why I've thought it's probably a good thing for LE firearms instructors to also attend an armorer class now and again, if only to gain a better understanding of how most of the commonly used defensive/service type pistols operate. Well, okay, it also helps when it comes to learning how to more accurately recognize & diagnose shooter problems versus actual gun problems. ;)

Some folks seem to get really wrapped up around the axle when it comes to establishing some definitive "standard" of what makes a DAO pistol "truly" DAO. Good luck. Not even all the major pistol manufacturers always seem to be on the same page in that regard.

The original S&W DAO pistols required the slide to be retracted and released so the DAO hammers could be "located" (partially cocked) by the sear nose, and then the trigger could be pressed to fire the gun. No "second strike" capability.

Then we have what has become accepted (as description) as "traditional double action" pistols, which are not double action only.

Then Glock came along and decided to describe their action as "constant double action", since it's partially cocked.

Sig's "Enhanced DAO" (what they call their DAK in their classes) has 2 different DAO trigger strokes, and is different than their original DAO.

Personally, I don't have a specific definition of "DAO" for a semiauto pistol that's required for me to sleep well at night.

I don't have a personal bias toward any particular definition, or even require that there be only ONE definition.

If the BATFE wants to impose one, it doesn't cause me to lose sleep.

If one or another sporting/competitive venue wants to impose a rigid definition within their rules, it doesn't cause me to lose sleep.

If the manufacturers want to stretch "traditional" and generally accepted definitions by coming up with new designs that aren't quite like anything else ... yep, I don't lose sleep over it.

So, I suppose in the strictest sense of answering the original poster's question ... I don't have a rigidly fixed definition of DAO. Sorry.

I'm fine with the respective companies calling their actions whatever they feel is merited ... S&W 3rd gen DAO, the Walther P990/P99 DAO, Glock Safe Action, Sig DAO/DAK and Kahr's ... all DAO's. ;)

GLOOB
March 2, 2012, 01:28 AM
If the manufacturers want to stretch "traditional" and generally accepted definitions by coming up with new designs that aren't quite like anything else ... yep, I don't lose sleep over it.
But they're not coming up with new designs that aren't quite like anything else. There's no gray area there. What would once be described as SA with a firing pin safety and passive trigger block safety is now called DAO. No one's losing sleep over it. But to look at a sheep and say, fine, it's a pig, that's plain silly. It might be a perfectly drop safe sheep, but it's still a sheep! :)

mavracer
March 2, 2012, 07:08 AM
For example, a gun that must be partially cocked before the trigger can have an effect, doesn't fully fit the definition of double action because some of the energy required to fire the gun wasn't stored by the trigger pull.
That definition won't fly either as most mainsprings are pre tensioned on assembly so now everything is once again DA or DAO.

Tcruse
March 2, 2012, 08:38 AM
Probably these labels for not mean much to the user. Things like second strike ability, trigger pull, trigger pull length .... Are the real issues for the user.

Now, as long as we have import restrictions and silly laws, the official label will continue to be important. Do we really need so much regulation?

JohnKSa
March 3, 2012, 12:09 AM
The terms "DA" and "DAO" are interchangeable. They have the exact same definition.No, they have different definitions. Double action merely means that the gun has double action capability but says nothing about whether or not it also has other capabilities. A "double action revolver" has, from the very beginning of the existence of such a revolver, most commonly meant a revolver that could be used either double or single action depending on the user's preference.

DAO specifically points out that the gun in question can only be operated double action.That definition won't fly either as most mainsprings are pre tensioned on assembly so now everything is once again DA or DAO.Mainsprings installed into the gun with some tension already applied have been around since mainsprings have been around. Since before DA existed, when SA was the only type of gun there was. It's not remotely reasonable to try to go back and redefine the tension in the mainspring as a factor in the process of discriminating between double and single action.

wickedsprint
March 3, 2012, 03:48 AM
In the grand scheme of things, why does it matter? Most people want a DAO due to perceived safety reasons. Is the M&P not safe enough for your desires?

GLOOB
March 3, 2012, 04:51 AM
Well, there's an industry definition of the terms "fat free," "sugar free," etc. A product can only have so much fat and still be called fat free. Imagine if one day you walked into the store and on the shelf is a tub of Crisco labeled fat free. This is perfectly ok, because the FDA has decided that a product can be called fat free as long as it's less than 99.9% pure fat. Would it matter? No, I guess not. It would just make the term "fat free" meaningless. Who cares if no one knows what they're talking about anymore, since words don't mean anything?

What if they started calling magazines clips? I bet a lot of people would be twisted up over that! :)

MythBuster
March 3, 2012, 12:54 PM
"In the grand scheme of things, why does it matter? Most people want a DAO due to perceived safety reasons. Is the M&P not safe enough for your desires?"

Safe enough for me but that is not the point. It is all about what people want and S&W lying about the gun in order to sell it to people who do not want a SA gun.

I got no problem with SA guns that have the proper safety features but there are plenty of people and some PD's that simply do not want to carry a SA design no matter what safety features they have.

I have carried cock and locked 1911 pistols and the SA XD for years.

If I had a dollar for everyone who asked me "did you know the hammer is cocked on that gun?" when they saw my 1911 I could take off work for a while.

SA guns just freak some people out. Those people right or wrong carry DAO pistols or carry condition two or empty chamber.

The point is don't lie to these people and tell them the SA pistol they are carrying is DAO.

MythBuster
March 3, 2012, 12:59 PM
Lets say you wanted a car with anti lock brakes. You feel very strongly about this. Brand X is advertised to have anti lock brakes.

Later on you discover their idea of anti lock brakes is just a very stiff brake pedal so they assume you don't have enough strength in your leg to lock the brakes. Would you still want that car.

mavracer
March 3, 2012, 08:30 PM
It's not remotely reasonable to try to go back and redefine the tension in the mainspring as a factor in the process of discriminating between double and single action.
And yet your comfortable doing exacticly that to define guns that are partially cocked.

wickedsprint
March 3, 2012, 09:38 PM
ABS argument doesn't hold water. There are NHTSA standards in place to define ABS.

I don't think there are actual guidelines in how to classify the myriad of firing systems available to today's semi-auto enthusiast. If there were, I have no doubt S&W would be in compliance.

GLOOB
March 4, 2012, 12:46 AM
If there were, I have no doubt S&W would be in compliance.
Based on what?

wickedsprint
March 4, 2012, 12:49 AM
Their enthusiasm to appease government... ILS..the military trials that led to the M&P itself etc.

JohnKSa
March 4, 2012, 02:13 AM
And yet your comfortable doing exacticly that to define guns that are partially cockedThe context of the sentence you're responding to was exclusively about tension in the mainspring/striker spring applied during installation.

But maybe it wasn't obvious--so I'll clarify.

Mainsprings installed into the gun with some tension already applied have been around since mainsprings have been around. Since before DA existed, when SA was the only type of gun there was. It's not remotely reasonable to try to go back and redefine the tension in the mainspring put there during the assembly process as a factor in the process of discriminating between double and single action.

In case it wasn't perfectly clear before, now it is. My initial comments were about cocking tension applied to the mainspring/striker spring either by the slide, by manual cocking or by the trigger. That's because this thread is about the differences between SA/DA/DAO, etc. and cocking tension applied by one of those three methods--specifically how it is applied--is how one discriminates between those types of operation.

Pre-tension applied to the mainspring/striker spring during the assembly process has absolutely nothing to do with those definitions or with this topic, nor is it, in any way, shape or form a discriminant between the various operation methods under discussion. It never has had anything to do with this topic.

MythBuster
March 4, 2012, 06:57 PM
No matter how you look at it the M&P is not a DAO. Case closed.

wickedsprint
March 4, 2012, 09:13 PM
The case is not closed just because you say it's closed.


S&W is more qualified than anyone on this board to correctly label their guns.

JohnKSa
March 4, 2012, 10:36 PM
S&W is more qualified than anyone on this board to correctly label their guns.No, I think that's a stretch. Words mean something. If I were to design a revolver that looked externally like a semi-auto and then described it as a semi-auto and sold it as a semi-auto, the fact that I'm the designer/manufacturer/seller wouldn't make that subterfuge and innacuracy any more justifiable.

Being a manufacture/designer/seller doesn't give an entity the right to use commonly defined terms in ways different from the way they're commonly used and defined.

The Lone Haranguer
March 4, 2012, 11:00 PM
No matter how you look at it the M&P is not a DAO. Case closed.
I think it was "case closed" right from the start. :scrutiny:

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 12:24 PM
"The case is not closed just because you say it's closed.


S&W is more qualified than anyone on this board to correctly label their guns"

OK so you explain to us just exactly how a pistol that is carried about 98% or more "cocked" can be called DAO.

No one has done that. Until you can the case is closed.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 12:31 PM
"Words mean something"

You are correct. The term DAO has meant basically the same thing for over a hundred years.

So now S&W and the gun writers paid by S&W have changed the meaning of the term just so they could sell their gun to those who so not want a DAO.

wickedsprint
March 5, 2012, 02:45 PM
It's not my job to explain anything to you. I simply don't agree with your logic.

I know enough about my weapons to research the actual firing type (regardless of manufacturer title) before buying them *shrugs*.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 02:49 PM
In other words you can't explain to us how the pistol in question is DAO. But we already knew that.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 02:50 PM
"I know enough about my weapons to research the actual firing type (regardless of manufacturer title) before buying them "

So do I but it is obvious many people can't.

wickedsprint
March 5, 2012, 02:50 PM
In other words you can't explain to us how the pistol in question is DAO. But we already knew that.

Not quite. You and I have different definitions. I simply don't care as much as you seem to.

FYI the ATF doesn't appear to have a problem with S&W's definition since they just awarded a contract to S&W for the very pistol we're debating.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 02:53 PM
"I simply don't agree with your logic"

My "logic" being a pistol that is carried at least 98% cocked can't possibly be DAO?

.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 02:54 PM
If you could explain how this pistol is DAO you would already done so. Case closed.

wickedsprint
March 5, 2012, 03:23 PM
"I simply don't agree with your logic"

My "logic" being a pistol that is carried at least 98% cocked can't possibly be DAO?

.

They say 98% of statistics are made up on the spot. :)

wickedsprint
March 5, 2012, 03:42 PM
Case closed.

Apparently not, otherwise you would not have reposted this same question 3 years later.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4662058

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 04:54 PM
It seems that at first they thought I was wrong there also until they actually bothered to look at their own guns then they agreed with me.

wickedsprint
March 5, 2012, 07:34 PM
It seems that at first they thought I was wrong...

The people who want to sell you the gun think you're wrong.

The ATF thinks you're wrong.

I think you're wrong.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 07:57 PM
So if I am wrong then you should be able to explain why this gun is a DAO.

What am I wrong about exactly. Is the gun not about 98% cocked or more?

If you agree it is then how can you say it is DAO?

I don't understand.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 08:05 PM
Also the opinion of the BATF does not mean much to me and it should not to you. If they had their way we would ALL be completly disarmed.

wickedsprint
March 5, 2012, 08:46 PM
See post #40. I'm done arguing with people on the internet tonight.

gc70
March 5, 2012, 09:26 PM
Most people could care less what name is given to their gun's action. Some people say they care but do not understand what they are talking about. And those who do understand make their own assessments without relying on somebody else's label.

I do sorta' like the idea of including overcoming positive sear engagement (examples were SKS or AR rifles) in the definition of DAO. Just think how many folks will be relieved that those evil military rifles are really safe DAO weapons. :evil:

GLOOB
March 5, 2012, 10:17 PM
See post #40. I'm done arguing with people on the internet tonight.
Post #40:
Bolded text by me:
My definition is simple. If double action, The trigger accomplishes two actions. In my opinion the Glock is technically a DAO with a light trigger pull that has the same manual of arms as a SAO.
??? A lot of us agree with that part. The M&P is very similar to the Glock in almost every way, with a few exceptions. One of which is very pertinent to what you have been arguing for the last page.

... or:
My definition is simple. If double action, The trigger accomplishes two actions. In my opinion the Glock is technically a DAO with a light trigger pull that has the same manual of arms as a SAO.
Sorta like my DAO 1911 series 80 Gold Cup? The double action trigger not only drops the hammer, it also lifts the firing pin safety.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 11:23 PM
"I do sorta' like the idea of including overcoming positive sear engagement (examples were SKS or AR rifles) in the definition of DAO. Just think how many folks will be relieved that those evil military rifles are really safe DAO weapons."

Not just the SKS and AR but this also means that a whole lot more designs that were called SA many years, longer than we have all been alive, DAO.

In fact there are very few SA designs left in this world if we use that definition.

The Mossberg shotgun I worked on a while back was DAO. The trigger pull moved the hammer to the rear about a millimeter or so.

The British Enfield rifle does this to some degree. Or at least mine does.

gc70
March 5, 2012, 11:39 PM
Excellent; there may be a whole lot more safe DAO weapons than the public has been led to believe!

wickedsprint
March 6, 2012, 07:56 AM
Post #40:
Bolded text by me:

??? A lot of us agree with that part. The M&P is very similar to the Glock in almost every way, with a few exceptions. One of which is very pertinent to what you have been arguing for the last page.

... or:

Sorta like my DAO 1911 series 80 Gold Cup? The double action trigger not only drops the hammer, it also lifts the firing pin safety.

You're right, by not including more detail in my simple definition I've accidentally lumped every pistol with a trigger activated firing pin safety into the DAO category.

MythBuster
March 6, 2012, 08:10 PM
Perhaps you could explain how your simple definition shows us the
M&P is DAO

gc70
March 6, 2012, 08:19 PM
Oh, no! :eek: Now we have another category - TAO - the triple-action trigger. The TAO performs three functions: cocks the hammer or striker; releases the firing pin safety, and; releases the hammer or striker.

wickedsprint
March 6, 2012, 08:33 PM
Perhaps you could explain how your simple definition shows us the
M&P is DAO

I stated my definition with post #40. By that criteria it's DAO.

Multiple entities with significantly more credibility than yourself are calling it DAO. Why on earth would anyone change their mind because of the steadfast opinion of someone with no credentials on the Internet?

I'm done replying to you on this topic.

MythBuster
March 8, 2012, 08:23 PM
They are all liars.

nipprdog
March 8, 2012, 09:53 PM
This thread could have died, and gone away. But you had to bump it up, 2 days later, with this;

They are all liars.

:rolleyes:

JohnBT
March 8, 2012, 10:48 PM
Exactly. Caution, playground ahead.

9mmepiphany
March 9, 2012, 01:07 AM
I think this one has gone on long enough

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