This is a different way of looking at home defense calibers...


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Ranger30-06
February 25, 2012, 06:35 PM
Duplex Owner Wounds Young Intruder (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/02/duplex_owner_wounds_young_intr.html)

This is a very different way of looking at selecting your HD gun/caliber. Two really big lessons are extremely emphasized here:

1) Make sure your gun is reliable with your selected ammo! Run a couple hundred rounds through it before you trust your life to it!
2) The "lowly" .32 ACP still works. In this case, good shot placement beat penetration, expansion, AND muzzle energy.


It's a good story with a happy ending; The bad guy goes to prison and the good guy gets his gun back. :D

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Yo Mama
February 25, 2012, 07:22 PM
I once had a friend put it great:

I don't care if you shoot me in the face with a rubber band gun, I'm gonna flintch. .32 gets more of an umph than the rubber band gun IMO.

Standing Wolf
February 25, 2012, 08:00 PM
78 years old and still beating the looters? Well done, old man!

Hardtarget
February 25, 2012, 11:27 PM
I think we can say"any gun is better than no gun." We could also add that he is very lucky in many ways.

I hope I am never forced into a shooting situation! I'm soon to be 62 and I know I'm moving into the "target age" for many criminals. I already look it...white hair and not always moving real fast. Sonetimes my knees and ankles don't like that high speed stuff.

I can't help but wonder...what did that guy think he would find to steal in a house under renovation? Tools? Not much resale value to those. That man was lucky to win out in this.

Mark

JSpear
February 26, 2012, 12:32 AM
I'm glad for the old man! A positive outcome in my mind!

JO JO BANG
February 26, 2012, 08:39 AM
The shooting will be reviewed by the city prosecutor, police said. Ziolkowski said he would drop off his weapon at the 4th District Police Station for ballistics tests as police requested. They promised to return it to him----HOPE ALL IS WELL

Gun Geezer
February 26, 2012, 08:41 AM
So the burgular was a "ute". At least this time Mama was NOT quoted as saying "MY baby didn't do nuthin".

On a serious note, the old guy is going to have trouble selling that place. Best toss in a shotgun with the asking price!

3KillerBs
February 26, 2012, 10:05 AM
...
I can't help but wonder...what did that guy think he would find to steal in a house under renovation? Tools? Not much resale value to those. That man was lucky to win out in this.

Mark

I'm told that the prices on scrap metal and copper wire are through the roof at the moment.

For over a year we haven't had to pay the town to haul off anything made of metal. We just put it out by the road a bit separated from the actual trash and the scrap metal hunters take it within 24 hours.

gym
February 26, 2012, 03:06 PM
A well armed society is a polite society

MedWheeler
February 26, 2012, 03:22 PM
Ziolkowski said he would drop off his weapon at the 4th District Police Station for ballistics tests as police requested. They promised to return it to him.

I'm surprised it wasn't taken from him at the scene. But, I have heard of rare cases in which the defender is even asked if he has another means of protection (another gun) for use during the time his will be tied up.

MDW GUNS
February 26, 2012, 03:22 PM
So the kid had an older revolver himself.
Hopefully he is judged as an adult and gets the bonus for the gun!

natman
February 26, 2012, 04:40 PM
Duplex Owner Wounds Young Intruder (http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/02/duplex_owner_wounds_young_intr.html)

This is a very different way of looking at selecting your HD gun/caliber. Two really big lessons are extremely emphasized here:

1) Make sure your gun is reliable with your selected ammo! Run a couple hundred rounds through it before you trust your life to it!

Can't argue with that one, so I won't.

2) The "lowly" .32 ACP still works. In this case, good shot placement beat penetration, expansion, AND muzzle energy.


I don't see how anything was "beat". It seems to me that the shot placement was adequate and the guy got lucky. I don't see how the outcome would have been worse if more penetration, expansion and energy had been applied.

Stevie-Ray
February 26, 2012, 09:31 PM
I don't see how the outcome would have been worse if more penetration, expansion and energy had been applied. Um, through and through and hit one of his neighbors?

BLACKHAWKNJ
February 26, 2012, 11:10 PM
Jeff Cooper: "First Rule of Gunfighting-have a gun"
Elmer Keith responding to a correspondent's asking him what he thought of
a mouse gun"-"Not my cup of tea but sure beats your fists". Or feet or foul language.

Ranger30-06
February 27, 2012, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by Ranger30-06
2) The "lowly" .32 ACP still works. In this case, good shot placement beat penetration, expansion, AND muzzle energy.
I don't see how anything was "beat". It seems to me that the shot placement was adequate and the guy got lucky. I don't see how the outcome would have been worse if more penetration, expansion and energy had been applied.

Well a lot of people like to push the 9mm as the minimum, and others the .380, however most people will tell you to not even touch the .32's or .25's.

The other side of the spectrum says that placement is the biggest key to success. In a way, this side is a bit more right, in the sense that poking any hole through an important part of the body (heart, spine, or head) will stop it very quickly, if not instantly.

This guy managed a threat stopping shot with one .32 ACP hollow point, because he had near perfect shot placement. Muzzle velocity, energy, and expansion were relatively irrelevant and completely trumped because of an excellent shot. If you can hit where you want to even under stress, the .32 you threw in your pocket beats the 9mm you couldn't fit under the coat so you left it in the car. Practice, practice, practice!


A couple additional key points/questions that I think can be pulled out of this are:
1) Mouse guns still have there place
2) Little calibers still poke unwanted holes in the bad guy
3) How much would have a bigger caliber helped in an identical situation? One shot of .380? 9mm? 45? Heck how about one shot of .357 or .44 mag? All of these come at big costs! (I'm not using this as an excuse for bigger is better, but it should be a driving point to practice with at least 100 rounds of whatever you plan on trusting your life to!) Recoil, gun weight, cost to practice (in the larger calibers at least), and gun size are all significantly increased.

Azaraith
February 27, 2012, 12:13 AM
it should be a driving point to practice with at least 1,000 rounds of whatever you plan on trusting your life to!

Fixed, IMO. 1,000 rounds will cost you ~$350 for 45 ACP. Spread over several range outings, the cost wouldn't be that bad. Being well-versed with your weapon is worth far more than $350 if it comes down to using it. I usually go through 100-150 rounds every time I go to the range...

On topic, glad he wasn't hurt and he got the job done. I'm not personally comfortable with using a mouse gun for home defense, but in this case it worked for him.

duns
February 27, 2012, 12:17 AM
Interesting that the bad guy and the good guy both had .32ACP caliber guns.

Ranger30-06
February 27, 2012, 12:21 AM
Fixed, IMO. 1,000 rounds will cost you ~$350 for 45 ACP. Spread over several range outings, the cost wouldn't be that bad. Being well-versed with your weapon is worth far more than $350 if it comes down to using it. I usually go through 100-150 rounds every time I go to the range...

Not here in Jersey! 1000 rounds of .45 will run you closer to $550 because we can't order handgun ammo online so we have to pay jacked up store prices. While yea, that would be ideal, it just doesn't work for me. I just straight out can't afford 1000 rounds of .40 S&W. I'll buy a box or two when I can, practice with 1/2 the box and stash away the rest in case I ever need it.

bigfatdave
February 27, 2012, 12:23 AM
He left a single hollow-point round in the chest of a 17-year-old Cleveland youth who was later arrested for aggravated burglary
Ziolkowski used a .32 cal. Beretta pistol

Rimlock with short OAL semi-rimmed rounds in a Tomcat magazine, perhaps? You have to choose your ammo and magazine relationships carefully with those little .32acp guns, I know my p32 can malfunction with short rounds if the spacer isn't in.

Mr Ziolkowski got a shot off against a younger, stronger, faster criminal. The motivations of the criminal may never be known, but burgling while armed* is a dangerous task, and is surely a way to declare adulthood, this isn't a "child" regardless of age. At best, the scumbag was planning a quick burglary without any confrontation, possibly, he planned on a confrontation with a decrepit geezer and brought along his magic talisman of intimidation (+4 to all bluffing rolls) to make sure everything went smoothly, or even worse he simply planned on eliminating the pesky old guy to prevent any interference with a nice scrap metal salvage operation.




* (the least violent possible motivation I can reasonably imagine, he wasn't there to sell girl scout cookies)

FIVETWOSEVEN
February 27, 2012, 12:35 AM
This case doesn't change my view on calibers. All handgun rounds put a hurt on someone but some more than others.

Azaraith
February 27, 2012, 02:00 AM
Not here in Jersey! 1000 rounds of .45 will run you closer to $550 because we can't order handgun ammo online so we have to pay jacked up store prices. While yea, that would be ideal, it just doesn't work for me. I just straight out can't afford 1000 rounds of .40 S&W. I'll buy a box or two when I can, practice with 1/2 the box and stash away the rest in case I ever need it.

Why would you wanna live in Jersey??? :scrutiny::scrutiny::scrutiny: I've been to Newark - never again! lol :o

I'm guessing getting out of state ammo for cheap and driving it back to Jersey would be out of the picture too...

Mofungo
February 27, 2012, 11:17 AM
@Ranger 30-06

It is legal to buy on-line in Jersey. Some of the bigger box discount outlets will not ship to Jersey, but enough others will that discounts can be had.

Ranger30-06
February 27, 2012, 12:52 PM
@Ranger 30-06

It is legal to buy on-line in Jersey. Some of the bigger box discount outlets will not ship to Jersey, but enough others will that discounts can be had.
Not handgun ammo. The state records all handgun ammo purchased by NJ owners, and bypassing that system by going online will get you a knock on the door by the local sheriff and his gang. Apparently though, it's perfectly legal to go over to PA to buy ammo and bring it back. I'm pretty sure the law is to keep people under 21 from buying handgun ammo, but like most other gun laws, it's effectiveness just isn't there.

natman
February 28, 2012, 04:14 PM
Well a lot of people like to push the 9mm as the minimum, and others the .380, however most people will tell you to not even touch the .32's or .25's.

The other side of the spectrum says that placement is the biggest key to success. In a way, this side is a bit more right, in the sense that poking any hole through an important part of the body (heart, spine, or head) will stop it very quickly, if not instantly.

This guy managed a threat stopping shot with one .32 ACP hollow point, because he had near perfect shot placement. Muzzle velocity, energy, and expansion were relatively irrelevant and completely trumped because of an excellent shot. If you can hit where you want to even under stress, the .32 you threw in your pocket beats the 9mm you couldn't fit under the coat so you left it in the car. Practice, practice, practice!


A couple additional key points/questions that I think can be pulled out of this are:
1) Mouse guns still have there place
2) Little calibers still poke unwanted holes in the bad guy
3) How much would have a bigger caliber helped in an identical situation? One shot of .380? 9mm? 45? Heck how about one shot of .357 or .44 mag? All of these come at big costs! (I'm not using this as an excuse for bigger is better, but it should be a driving point to practice with at least 100 rounds of whatever you plan on trusting your life to!) Recoil, gun weight, cost to practice (in the larger calibers at least), and gun size are all significantly increased.

A 32 worked. This time. 32s work. Sometimes. Larger calibers work a larger percentage of the time, so I'll take the largest I can shoot straight, which is a lot bigger than a 32 ACP.

BTW, the argument "the .32 you threw in your pocket beats the 9mm you couldn't fit" doesn't fit in this situation, the shooter was at home.

Murphy4570
February 28, 2012, 05:02 PM
Not handgun ammo. The state records all handgun ammo purchased by NJ owners, and bypassing that system by going online will get you a knock on the door by the local sheriff and his gang. Apparently though, it's perfectly legal to go over to PA to buy ammo and bring it back. I'm pretty sure the law is to keep people under 21 from buying handgun ammo, but like most other gun laws, it's effectiveness just isn't there.

I live in NJ, and buy all of my ammo off of the internet. Cheaper that way. Rifle, shotgun, pistol, doesn't matter.

SGammo.com was still selling 1,000rnd cases of Aguila .45ACP for $289 last I checked, too. That's where I got my last case of .45ACP, haven't even touched it yet!

The local cops have not banged down my door in over a year of me doing this. My impression is, the less cops know, the better off I am.

2zulu1
February 28, 2012, 09:52 PM
In this particular instance the 32acp stopped hostilities; however, what we don't know, was the 17 year old predisposed to 'fall' down upon being shot, by any caliber?

browningguy
February 28, 2012, 10:39 PM
Any gun is better than a stick. I have, and sometimes carry, .25, .32 and .380. But when I have a choice it's usually a .40 on my hip. I will admit that working in the yard or in the garage I usually only have a .25 or .32 in my pocket.

I have started keeping my XD M in 9mm with me a lot since I got it, something about 20 rounds of 9mm HP seems comforting.

mdauben
February 29, 2012, 11:41 AM
2) The "lowly" .32 ACP still works. In this case, good shot placement beat penetration, expansion, AND muzzle energy.

I tend to agree with some of the other posters, that one instance of successful use of .32ACP does not change the fact that it's a barely adequate SD round. In this case, assuming the elderly main in the story is not a former Olympic bulls eye shooter, luck played a major role in his success. No one would argue that a .22LR in the pump would be more effective than a .44MAG in the little finger, but given the same point-of-impact, bigger and/or faster will always be better. A larger, more powerful round provides more margin for error will more reliably stop and attacker, and relies less on perfect shot placement..

Fixed, IMO. 1,000 rounds will cost you ~$350 for 45 ACP.
Actually, 1000 rounds of typical premium .45ACP SD ammo would run at least $1000.00

Certainly inexpensive FMJ practice ammo (which would be closer to your $350 estimate) is great for weapons familiarization and target practice, but it does not tell you much about the reliability of your gun with the JHP self-defence ammo of your choice.

Murphy4570
March 1, 2012, 01:58 AM
Actually, 1000 rounds of typical premium .45ACP SD ammo would run at least $1000.00

Certainly inexpensive FMJ practice ammo (which would be closer to your $350 estimate) is great for weapons familiarization and target practice, but it does not tell you much about the reliability of your gun with the JHP self-defence ammo of your choice.

US Army used .45 ball ammo to kill a lot of Germans and Japanese. I don't see why it is no longer adequate for killing people. Cheap stuff goes boom just as well as the $25 a box expensive stuff.

I personally have a box of Remington UMC ball ammo for my SD ammo. 230 grains of DRT.

Then again, my opinion is biased due to NJ law not liking hollowpoint ammo AT ALL.

Diggers
March 1, 2012, 02:56 AM
Interesting... I think most people will fall getting shot in the chest with any caliber.


I know this topic is always taken to the extreme i.e. some huge drugged up guy who feels no pain etc. BUT I don't see that as the norm or even at all likely.

If it is then we all should be walking around with rifles. :evil:

Loosedhorse
March 1, 2012, 11:25 AM
it was an ancient chrome-plated .32 cal. Smith & Wesson semi-automatic.Man, I sure hope he gets his gun back! It's a collector's item!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_OKlb6h7hvWY/SLpcIOOS4fI/AAAAAAAABkY/MEuJ-uszgoM/s320/Smith+%26+Wesson+.32+Auto.jpg

I'll bet it's nickel, not chrome...making it even rarer!
This guy managed a threat stopping shot with one .32 ACP hollow point, because he had near perfect shot placement.Interesting... I think most people will fall getting shot in the chest with any caliber. This case was a classic "one-shot stop."

For those claiming near-perfect aim--why the claim? I did not get a location for the shot from the story other than "the chest." And, the story says the burglar slumped over, seemingly immediately--it's not clear that even a shot to the heart would do that.

Until shown otherwise, this to me appears to be one of those many "undependable psychological stops." To the extent that "most people" would fall immediately having been shot in the chest, those would also seem to be psychological stops.

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