So much for the Bush military service brouhaha...


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Preacherman
February 11, 2004, 05:21 PM
From the Washington Times, Letters To The Editor, February 11, 2004 (http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040210-082910-8424r.htm):

'Bush and I were lieutenants'

George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to 1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders (Maj. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased). While we were not part of the same social circle outside the base, we were in the same fraternity of fighter pilots, and proudly wore the same squadron patch.

It is quite frustrating to hear the daily cacophony from the left and Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, et al., about Lt. Bush escaping his military responsibilities by hiding in the Texas ANG. In the Air Guard during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as many Air National Guardsmen are finding out today. If the 111th FIS and Lt. Bush did not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately avoided use of the Guard and Reserves for domestic political calculations, knowing that a draftee only stirred up the concerns of one family, while a call-up got a whole community's attention.

The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th FIS, Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and would have been useless in Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers.

If you check the 111th FIS records of 1970-72 and any other ANG squadron, you will find other pilots excused for career obligations and conflicts. The Bush excusal in 1972 was further facilitated by a change in the unit's mission, from an operational fighter squadron to a training squadron with a new airplane, the F-101, which required that more pilots be available for full-time instructor duty rather than part-time traditional reservists with outside employment.

The winding down of the Vietnam War in 1971 provided a flood of exiting active-duty pilots for these instructor jobs, making part-timers like Lt. Bush and me somewhat superfluous. There was a huge glut of pilots in the Air Force in 1972, and with no cockpits available to put them in, many were shoved into nonflying desk jobs. Any pilot could have left the Air Force or the Air Guard with ease after 1972 before his commitment was up because there just wasn't room for all of them anymore.

Sadly, few of today's partisan pundits know anything about the environment of service in the Reserves in the 1970s. The image of a reservist at that time is of one who joined, went off for six months' basic training, then came back and drilled weekly or monthly at home, with two weeks of "summer camp." With the knowledge that Mr. Johnson and Mr. McNamara were not going to call out the Reserves, it did become a place of refuge for many wanting to avoid Vietnam.

There was one big exception to this abusive use of the Guard to avoid the draft, and that was for those who wanted to fly, as pilots or crew members. Because of the training required, signing up for this duty meant up to 2½ years of active duty for training alone, plus a high probability of mobilization. A fighter-pilot candidate selected by the Guard (such as Lt. Bush and me) would be spending the next two years on active duty going through basic training (six weeks), flight training (one year), survival training (two weeks) and combat crew training for his aircraft (six to nine months), followed by local checkout (up to three more months) before he was even deemed combat-ready. Because the draft was just two years, you sure weren't getting out of duty being an Air Guard pilot. If the unit to which you were going back was an F-100, you were mobilized for Vietnam. Avoiding service? Yeah, tell that to those guys.

The Bush critics do not comprehend the dangers of fighter aviation at any time or place, in Vietnam or at home, when they say other such pilots were risking their lives or even dying while Lt. Bush was in Texas. Our Texas ANG unit lost several planes right there in Houston during Lt. Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was risking one's life.

Critics such as Mr. Kerry (who served in Vietnam, you know), Terry McAuliffe and Michael Moore (neither of whom served anywhere) say Lt. Bush abandoned his assignment as a jet fighter pilot without explanation or authorization and was AWOL from the Alabama Air Guard.

Well, as for abandoning his assignment, this is untrue. Lt. Bush was excused for a period to take employment in Florida for a congressman and later in Alabama for a Senate campaign.

Excusals for employment were common then and are now in the Air Guard, as pilots frequently are in career transitions, and most commanders (as I later was) are flexible in letting their charges take care of career affairs until they return or transfer to another unit near their new employment. Sometimes they will transfer temporarily to another unit to keep them on the active list until they can return home. The receiving unit often has little use for a transitory member, especially in a high-skills category like a pilot, because those slots usually are filled and, if not filled, would require extensive conversion training of up to six months, an unlikely option for a temporary hire.

As a commander, I would put such "visitors" in some minor administrative post until they went back home. There even were a few instances when I was unaware that they were on my roster because the paperwork often lagged. Today, I can't even recall their names. If a Lt. Bush came into my unit to "pull drills" for a couple of months, I wouldn't be too involved with him because I would have a lot more important things on my table keeping the unit combat ready.

Another frequent charge is that, as a member of the Texas ANG, Lt. Bush twice ignored or disobeyed lawful orders, first by refusing to report for a required physical in the year when drug testing first became part of the exam, and second by failing to report for duty at the disciplinary unit in Colorado to which he had been ordered. Well, here are the facts:

First, there is no instance of Lt. Bush disobeying lawful orders in reporting for a physical, as none would be given. Pilots are scheduled for their annual flight physicals in their birth month during that month's weekend drill assembly — the only time the clinic is open. In the Reserves, it is not uncommon to miss this deadline by a month or so for a variety of reasons: The clinic is closed that month for special training; the individual is out of town on civilian business; etc.

If so, the pilot is grounded temporarily until he completes the physical. Also, the formal drug testing program was not instituted by the Air Force until the 1980s and is done randomly by lot, not as a special part of a flight physical, when one easily could abstain from drug use because of its date certain. Blood work is done, but to ensure a healthy pilot, not confront a drug user.

Second, there was no such thing as a "disciplinary unit in Colorado" to which Lt. Bush had been ordered. The Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver is a repository of the paperwork for those no longer assigned to a specific unit, such as retirees and transferees. Mine is there now, so I guess I'm "being disciplined." These "disciplinary units" just don't exist. Any discipline, if required, is handled within the local squadron, group or wing, administratively or judicially. Had there been such an infraction or court-martial action, there would be a record and a reflection in Lt. Bush's performance review and personnel folder. None exists, as was confirmed in The Washington Post in 2000.

Finally, the Kerrys, Moores and McAuliffes are casting a terrible slander on those who served in the Guard, then and now. My Guard career parallels Lt. Bush's, except that I stayed on for 33 years. As a guardsman, I even got to serve in two campaigns. In the Cold War, the air defense of the United States was borne primarily by the Air National Guard, by such people as Lt. Bush and me and a lot of others. Six of those with whom I served in those years never made their 30th birthdays because they died in crashes flying air-defense missions.

While most of America was sleeping and Mr. Kerry was playing antiwar games with Hanoi Jane Fonda, we were answering 3 a.m. scrambles for who knows what inbound threat over the Canadian subarctic, the cold North Atlantic and the shark-filled Gulf of Mexico. We were the pathfinders in showing that the Guard and Reserves could become reliable members of the first team in the total force, so proudly evidenced today in Afghanistan and Iraq.

It didn't happen by accident. It happened because back at the nadir of Guard fortunes in the early '70s, a lot of volunteer guardsman showed they were ready and able to accept the responsibilities of soldier and citizen — then and now. Lt. Bush was a kid whose congressman father encouraged him to serve in the Air National Guard. We served proudly in the Guard. Would that Mr. Kerry encourage his children and the children of his colleague senators and congressmen to serve now in the Guard.

In the fighter-pilot world, we have a phrase we use when things are starting to get out of hand and it's time to stop and reset before disaster strikes. We say, "Knock it off." So, Mr. Kerry and your friends who want to slander the Guard: Knock it off.

COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired)
U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard
Herndon, Va.5

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Thumper
February 11, 2004, 05:28 PM
Awaiting "Moby" and the rest of the smear artists to descend:

Three...
Two...
one...

Sean Smith
February 11, 2004, 05:36 PM
Obviously a Republican fabrication! The GOP machine must have "gotten to him." ;)

bountyhunter
February 11, 2004, 05:36 PM
In the Air Guard during the Vietnam War, you were always subject to call-up, as many Air National Guardsmen are finding out today.

Excuse me while I puke. This is the most blatant campaign hogwash I have ever seen. Would the colonel care to relate HOW MANY guard were called up during Viet nam and WHAT PERCENTAGE of the force it was?

This is outrageous. Today's military is made up in VERY large percentage of Guard and Reserves and THEY ARE ALWAYS THE FIRST DEPLOYED (now, not then). The guard have the people who move materiel and set up security, and they were actually activated before the combat forces this time. Navy reserve medical corps supply the field medics for the Marines and they were also activated before combat troops.

For this colonel to stand there and say that he or any other pilots in 1972 had anywhere near the chances of active service as the Guard does now is just garbage. The truth is that the Guard in the late 60's was a very safe way to avoid combat and it is now a guaranteed front row seat to every military action. Times change.



: In the Cold War, the air defense of the United States was borne primarily by the Air National Guard, by such people as Lt. Bush and me and a lot of others.

That's going to be one hell of a surprise to the Strategic Air Command who flew tens of thousands of missions using their B-52 bombers out of Turkey carrying hydrogen bombs 24/7 to neutralize Russia's threat against our land based missiles. Those SAC wings are the reason Kruschev blinked and ran when Kennedy told him to back down. If those birds were not in the air every second of every day armed to the teeth, we would have been attacked with land based missiles.



In the fighter-pilot world, we have a phrase we use when things are starting to get out of hand and it's time to stop and reset before disaster strikes. We say, "Knock it off."

In the real world, we have a phrase we use for cases like this:

"Please stop shoveling it so deep or at least give me a chance to put on my hip waders.":barf

Thumper
February 11, 2004, 05:37 PM
Remember Sean, "They" are everywhere. ;)

Sean Smith
February 11, 2004, 05:39 PM
This is the most blatant campaign hogwash I have ever seen.

But when other officers slander the President, then later recant and admit they were full of it, that isn't "campaign hogwash"? :p

What we have here is another case of a classic logical fallacy: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Not having evidence that Bush reported at every place and every time required is not evidence that he did not do so... it is just an absence of evidence. Arguing otherwise is to appeal to the infallibility of military record keeping, which is a comical basis for proving anything (as anyone who ever actually served in the military, or knew somebody who did, would know).

fix
February 11, 2004, 05:49 PM
Today's military is made up in VERY large percentage of Guard and Reserves and THEY ARE ALWAYS THE FIRST DEPLOYED

While I do not mean to cast any aspersions on the Guard and Reserves, they are most certainly NOT always the first deployed. That statement reflects a serious lack of factual knowledge on your part. I didn't see many reservists in Haiti, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Sudan, or Albania. But then again, what do I know? It's obvious that actually being there is not enough qualification for some people.

The Guard and Reserves are a vital part of our armed forces. Without them, we could not sustain any prolonged action. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who questions their value or their service is a....I better stop there.

Edit to add: Saw plenty of reversists :D and NG in Bos-Herz, and quite a few in Kosovo. All Great Americans!

Preacherman
February 11, 2004, 05:50 PM
This is the most blatant campaign hogwash I have ever seen.Bountyhunter, has it ever occurred to you that Col. Campenni might, just might, be the "real deal" - a retired military reserve officer who wants to set the record straight? Aren't you pre-judging him by the devious, double-edged standards of politicians, rather than by the standards of the "real world"? If I were to accuse you of being a shill for the Democratic Party on the basis of your posts on THR, would I not be doing you a grave injustice? So why do the same to the Colonel?

:fire: :banghead: :mad:

Sean Smith
February 11, 2004, 05:53 PM
If I were to accuse you of being a shill for the Democratic Party on the basis of your posts on THR, would I not be doing you a grave injustice?

Actually, you'd be drawing a conclusion based on clear-cut evidence. :D

On the other hand, there is no evidence that the Colonel in question is being dishonest.

Thumper
February 11, 2004, 05:54 PM
If I were to accuse you of being a shill for the Democratic Party on the basis of your posts on THR, would I not be doing you a grave injustice?

I'd say you were an astute reader and pretty dandy at trumpeting the blatantly obvious.

:D

Sorry...struck me as funny...

Sean Smith
February 11, 2004, 05:57 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the Cold War, the air defense of the United States was borne primarily by the Air National Guard, by such people as Lt. Bush and me and a lot of others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's going to be one hell of a surprise to the Strategic Air Command who flew tens of thousands of missions using their B-52 bombers out of Turkey carrying hydrogen bombs 24/7 to neutralize Russia's threat against our land based missiles.

Um, that isn't an air defense mission. Air defense is shooting down enemy aircraft (and lately, missiles too). Strategic bombers don't do air defense. Showing off your keen knowledge of military affairs again? ;)

jfh
February 11, 2004, 05:57 PM
Bountyhunter's latest post disputes this letter in support Bush's service--BUT DOES NOT REFUTE ANY CLAIM made by Campenni regarding Bush's service. In fact, Bountyhunter's post is mostly full of disputes over "the definitions," as it were--definitions of who is called up and when, etc.

I take it, then, that the logical question to ask is what proof will you accept?
Otherwise, the arguments you are putting forth are merely distractions.

FWIW, my take on your obstinace rests not in having found satisfactory proof, but with an obsessive need to pursue an issue for the reason of other needs of your own. In short, you come off as nothing more than another partisan pundit.

Jim H.

Waitone
February 11, 2004, 05:59 PM
The human being has an amazing capacity to believe what he assumes to be true and filter out anything that doesn't match those assumptions.

Its a mental filter that is quite effective is keeping a mental even keel in times of stress.

Thumper
February 11, 2004, 06:00 PM
Dang...Sean beat me to it.

JitsuGuy
February 11, 2004, 06:00 PM
You can watch videos about this issue and the Bush family at this website...

http://www.thelawparty.com/TheBushFamily.htm

J

Thumper
February 11, 2004, 06:02 PM
Bountyhunter's post is mostly full of disputes over "the definitions," as it were--definitions of who is called up and when, etc.

We're patiently waiting for bountyhunter to realize he's moved from his statement that "Bush is a draft dodger" to "Bush's service wasn't as honorable as Kerry's."

In other words, the jig is up.

BigG
February 11, 2004, 06:06 PM
I enjoyed reading Colonel Campenni's letter. He sounds like a man who knows what he's talking about to this veteran. :D

ID_shooting
February 11, 2004, 06:08 PM
[QUOTE]
Today's military is made up in VERY large percentage of Guard and Reserves and THEY ARE ALWAYS THE FIRST DEPLOYED

Um, exuce me while I object to this statement. I dont remember seeing any NG units when my unit hit Saudi soil.

1st ID BIG RED ONE

bountyhunter
February 11, 2004, 06:43 PM
While I do not mean to cast any aspersions on the Guard and Reserves, they are most certainly NOT always the first deployed. That statement reflects a serious lack of factual knowledge on your part.

Actually, your reply indicates a large lack of knowledge. In the desert shield campaign (prior to desert storm), the very FIRST reserve unit mobilized to AD in ********** was my wife's Navy Medical unit which supplies the corpsman to the Marine (and is attached to the unit at camp pandleton). The Navy reserve was activated prior to any active duty units being shipped out or even drawing their orders. Those Navy personell were required to staff the hospital ships USS Mercy, Uss Comfort, and USS Hope which were deployed into the area as well as backfill slots at bases in the state where positions were unfilled. Her unit was also one of the last to be released from active duty.

In the Iraq campaign, Guard units all up and down this state were activated prior to ANY active duty combat force deployment (some from the bay Area). The units were those which specialized in the movement of combat materiel which must be in place to support ground troops. Again, BEFORE combat forces were deployed.

The Navy Medical units were also stripped clean of the "skills people" before combat deployment, all of the corpsmen and doctors were activated prior to any combat opertions.

So, to answer your incorrect statement: YES, many reservists and guard ARE deployed (and activated) before combat forces are, and WELL before they are deployed into combat because they provide the support that allows the combat forces to be there.

bountyhunter
February 11, 2004, 06:47 PM
Um, exuce me while I object to this statement. I dont remember seeing any NG units when my unit hit Saudi soil.

maybe not, but a lot of the facilities were hauled there and set up by them. If not personally delivered, they were set together and loaded onto the transports stateside that flew them there. You guys don't seem to catch the fact that not all (in fact most) of the activated guard never go to the combat zone, they support the guys who do and backfill slots left open when troops are shipped out from here. This country has to stay defended as well and the troops are spread THIN.

fix
February 11, 2004, 06:48 PM
Actually, your reply indicates a large lack of knowledge.

Maybe you didn't understand. Let me spell it out for you.

I

WAS

THERE!

:banghead:

That would consitute first hand knowledge to most people, but evidently because my wife wasn't there...I'm just a know nothing SOB.

You see, there are these things called Marine Expeditionary Units and there are ALWAYS 2 deployed.

fix
February 11, 2004, 06:49 PM
This country has to stay defended as well and the troops are spread THIN.

So that would mean that President Bush filled an important role, no?

Bruce H
February 11, 2004, 06:49 PM
Like tires in the mud with the frame on the ground.

bountyhunter
February 11, 2004, 06:51 PM
We're patiently waiting for bountyhunter to realize he's moved from his statement that "Bush is a draft dodger" to "Bush's service wasn't as honorable as Kerry's."

OK, you want to play more semantics. At the late 60's, it ws common knowledge that the guard was they way to stay out of combat. Published data that shows the total combat force in Viet nam made up by the Guard ranged from about 1% to a peak of 5% proves that assumption was valid. The two statements of :

"Bush is a draft dodger"

"Bush's service wasn't as honorable as Kerry's."

Are not mutually exclusive, they are complimentary. In fact, the second one is a subset of the first. They are also factual. I am not changing what I am saying, you are attempting to re-write it. Nice try.

greyhound
February 11, 2004, 06:53 PM
Hyper-partisans on both sides can keep fighting about this, but to Mom-and-Pop America its settled - Democrats didn't prove Persident Bush was AWOL.

Even John Kerry said he wasn't going to talk about it any more (though I bet he doesn't mind if the DNC keeps beating this dead horse).

bountyhunter
February 11, 2004, 06:55 PM
So that would mean that President Bush filled an important role, no?

No, again you try to re-write history and claim I am writing something you want me to say. Last time I checked, back in 1972:

1) We did not have a lunatic trying his best to launch terror attacks against our mainland.

2) The president had not shipped the majority of the force chartered with guarding our nation (the national Guard) overseas.

I don't know what role Bush fulfilled. I know it would have been the same with or without him.

Shooter 2.5
February 11, 2004, 06:55 PM
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185

Dorrin79
February 11, 2004, 06:57 PM
*yawn*

and yet another attempt by the Dims to attack Bush fails.

The sad thing is that he really is vulnerable - his domestic policies suck, he spends money on stupid government (redundancy alert!) programs at an unprecedented rate, he's too socially conservative for my tastes, etc, etc.

the problem for the Dims is that this makes him more electable, to their perceptions.

Only Libertarians (like myself), small-govm't conservatives and true pacifists have any reason to be upset with Bush. Democrats ought to be happy with him.

fix
February 11, 2004, 06:58 PM
Tell your wife I thank her for her service. Marines have a soft spot in their hearts for all Navy Medical personnel. As for you, I really don't know what else to say. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. So instead of debating the issue further, I'll take my leave of this discussion.

bountyhunter
February 11, 2004, 07:01 PM
You see, there are these things called Marine Expeditionary Units and there are ALWAYS 2 deployed.

That would consitute first hand knowledge to most people, but evidently because my wife wasn't there...I'm just a know nothing SOB.

I don't know what you know or don't know, but in case you have forgotten: do you know what branch of the service provides the corpsman which accompany EVERY marine unit into combat? I'll give you a hint: it's the same branch of the service that actually owns the Marines (it's written across the crest for the Marine Corps).

It's the US Navy. They supply the medical personnell to the Marines. That's why they were activated before the Corps units out of Pendleton. It's not a race, it's just that the reservists have to be brought in and gotten up to speed for deployment.

bountyhunter
February 11, 2004, 07:16 PM
Bountyhunter, has it ever occurred to you that Col. Campenni might, just might, be the "real deal" - a retired military reserve officer who wants to set the record straight?

I never disputed that he was retired military officer. But, so what? Was he with Bush at his drills? How about some facts that address the actual questions.

So you are saying you agree with his statement:


"The mission of the 147th Fighter Group ...was air defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet nuclear bombers.

In the Cold War, the air defense of the United States was borne primarily by the Air National Guard, by such people as Lt. Bush and me and a lot of others. "


We are supposed to take this guy seriously when he is claiming this?


First of all, the actual "cold war" as it presented a significant threat to the US was OVER by the 70's. Why? Because the US had deployed a fleet of nuclear missiles equipped sibmarines the Soviets could not track. The absolute definition of a perfect deterrent: a force which can surface, unleash it's weapons, and lay to ashes the entire Soviet Union. Their fangs had been pulled. Period.

That force of subs retired the previous air fleet of B-52's who had flown continuously in the air spaces near Russia carrying enough nukes to vaporize their country. If you want to know who to thank that the Russians never pressed the button, those are the guys.


Until I read Col Campenni's article, I never realized it was the Texas Air National Guard that had broken the back of the communist empire with the F-102.

jfh
February 11, 2004, 09:25 PM
what seems to be lacking in Bountyhunter's analyses is a certain amount of reality--reality in the sense of gaining a perspective on how individuals/small groups/states/Nations/beauracracies work, and how changes/actions/whatever are often not recognized by book-learned people.

In short, Bountyhunter's reduction of Campenni's statement of the ANG mission when he and Bush served to whining sarcasm because the sub deployment had been a a deterrent and the air defense was irrelevant demonstrates a young man well read in somebody's biased history book--but not of a military historian.

Read it again, BountyHunter, this time without the blindman's glasses on: Campenni's statement of mission is a straightforward statement of the mission, not a political rationalization for what ANG's activities were in fact.

Can anyone imagine the ANG's mission--at times, "the excuse" to provide Reserve Training--lagging? I certainly can--and it did in the Seventies. BountyHunter, your critical reading and thinking skills need a lot of work--unfortunately, it's an expansion that can only be accomplished by living a longer time and in a variety of ways. Compenni's bona fides are presented, for heaven's sake; check him out if you don't believe him--all you're doing is armchair analysis!

This is the voice of a desperately disillusioned person, eagerly trying to find who to blame for his disillusionment. Good luck, BountyHunter. It's the primary voice of the Democrats these days--sick Willy got the Party so far out on Hysterical Liberalism, the followers don't know what to do.

7.62FullMetalJacket
February 11, 2004, 09:55 PM
I AM NOT going to pile on :D

jfh
February 11, 2004, 10:04 PM
too many on the pile? But it's fun...actually, fix is on the right track.

HunterGatherer
February 11, 2004, 10:06 PM
BountyHunter, you crack me up. Thanks for all the laughs. ;) :D

Gewehr98
February 11, 2004, 10:16 PM
This part, especially:



Today's military is made up in VERY large percentage of Guard and Reserves and THEY ARE ALWAYS THE FIRST DEPLOYED

Funny, I recall no guard or reserve units either before me or with me during Desert Shield/Desert Storm, or Iraqi Freedom. But I fly heavy reconnaissance, without Reserve or Guard counterparts, so what do I know? :rolleyes:

7.62FullMetalJacket
February 11, 2004, 10:32 PM
The USO is the FIRST TO GO :what:

Binkus
February 12, 2004, 12:34 AM
As tempting as it sounds Im going to stay out of this. There are several moving pices to war and much of it is unseen or unheard though the gaurd may often be activated before MAJOR combat units due to logisticall reasons It dose not make them first in country. They can be very important though, and Its a great comfort to soilders when the know that the logistcal supply/support lines or operating well. Everyone has a important job and some jobs are more important than others but lets not over due it. Thats all Im going to say.

wingnutx
February 12, 2004, 01:07 AM
Well, if they decide to send my battalion to the sandbox, they'll give us a month or so of heavy training to bring us up to speed first.

Active guys are already up to speed. They go first.

If there's a huge buildup over months, like pre-iraq, then reserves and active might go together.

More impromptu actions, like afghanistan, are definitely active-in-first scenarios.

They forward-deploy units for a reason.

Malone LaVeigh
February 12, 2004, 01:15 AM
I'm glad someone has come forward that has some knowledge of Bush in the Guard. Still doesn't quite fill in all of the blanks, esp the Alabama part, but it's a start.

Don Gwinn
February 12, 2004, 01:17 AM
Bountyhunter, I'm not totally convinced by Col. Campenni yet, but you're not helping your case. You haven't refuted anything he said.


He never said the Texas ANG broke the back of Communism. That straw man won't hunt. He said the ANG was the main component of "air defense" for the CONUS. Talking about strategic bombers and submarines doesn't get it done, as these things are important but not involved in air defense.
In point of fact, Campenni says he WAS at drills with President Bush. He knew him "on the base." Unless Bush was one of those guys who like to hang out on base when they don't have to do so, I'd guess that means drill.
My father was in the Illinois National Guard (183rd Tactical Fighter Wing) wrenching on F-4's during the early 1970's. When I asked him why he joined, he told me he had just married mom and saw no point in going to Vietnam, where "it's hot and filthy, there's bugs, and people shoot at you." So he rendered honorable service here in the U.S. I have nothing but respect for people who went, but your depiction of the ANG does not do my father justice. He DID play a vital role in the defense of this nation. He hated every moment of his military "career," but by God, he DID it and he did it well. His pilots were always safe. I'm proud of him.
The question has been raised: what evidence will you accept? The local liberal radio guy complained that there was no evidence. The Bushies released the pay records. He complained that they don't mean anything because "I can produce pay stubs that show I got paid here at the radio station, for weeks when I was on vacation. I wasn't here at all!" Then he complained that no "fellow officers have come forward to vouch for Bush." I can't wait to hear what he has to say about this. I'm guessing it will be either exactly what you've said or silence.
Since my dad was in the Air Guard, our Appeals to Authority cancel each other out. You are undoubtedly closer to your wife than I am to dad, but he was in the same service as Bush at roughly the same time. :neener:

thefitzvh
February 12, 2004, 03:37 AM
Every time this topic comes up, it gets closed? Why?


Because a certain "someone" makes a claim based on what his spouse tells him. Then, a veteran who knows better refutes it. Things degenerate from there, and the mods get tired of it.

How bout, if you aren't in the military, don't dictate to people how it's run, and procedures. There are people here (the Fraud investigator for the AF in the other thread, for example) who have FIRSTHAND knowledge of the subjects.

We have a name for secondhand military procedural information. In the barracks, we called the people who distributed said information "Barracks S**thouse lawyers."

Greg Bell
February 12, 2004, 03:40 AM
I know this is old news, but the Democrats totally lost any credibility in this argument when they ran BILL CLINTON twice-- Against GHWB and Bob Dole, both of whom served honorably in WWII. Clinton was an actual, God's honest truth, draft dodger and America-hater in the late 60's early 70's. At least Kerry served before he became a North Vietnamese sympathizer.


Further, lets not forget all the things Kerry made up about our boys when he got back from Nam'.
Frankly, I don't think Kerry's medals make him any more qualified to lead than Hitler's Iron Cross and wound medal did. Hell, if serving with honor was the measure we would have elected Stockdale/McCain and burned Clinton at the stake! Bob Dole should have looked in the camera during the debates and screamed "I'm cursed to carry this friggin' pencil in my dead hand forever and you guys are going to elect this scumbag! " Ah, yes, that would have been nice.


Kerry is going down. Hell, I think he is the damn Manchurian candidate!


GHB

HunterGatherer
February 12, 2004, 03:49 AM
I'm glad someone has come forward that has some knowledge of Bush in the Guard. Still doesn't quite fill in all of the blanks, esp the Alabama part, but it's a start.




On Our Site

Post Series: The Making of George W. Bush


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Interview: "I, Like Others, Became Disillusioned"


Campaign 2000








At Height of Vietnam, Bush Picks Guard

George W. Bush, right, during his Harvard Business School years. (Harvard Yearbook)


By George Lardner Jr. and Lois Romano
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, July 28, 1999; Page A1


Fourth of seven articles
Two weeks before he was to graduate from Yale, George Walker Bush stepped into the offices of the Texas Air National Guard at Ellington Field outside Houston and announced that he wanted to sign up for pilot training.
It was May 27, 1968, at the height of the Vietnam War. Bush was 12 days away from losing his student deferment from the draft at a time when Americans were dying in combat at the rate of 350 a week. The unit Bush wanted to join offered him the chance to fulfill his military commitment at a base in Texas. It was seen as an escape route from Vietnam by many men his age, and usually had a long waiting list.

Bush had scored only 25 percent on a "pilot aptitude" test, the lowest acceptable grade. But his father was then a congressman from Houston, and the commanders of the Texas Guard clearly had an appreciation of politics.

Bush was sworn in as an airman the same day he applied. His commander, Col. Walter B. "Buck" Staudt, was apparently so pleased to have a VIP's son in his unit that he later staged a special ceremony so he could have his picture taken administering the oath, instead of the captain who actually had sworn Bush in. Later, when Bush was commissioned a second lieutenant by another subordinate, Staudt again staged a special ceremony for the cameras, this time with Bush's father the congressman – a supporter of the Vietnam War – standing proudly in the background.

Bush's father went on to run for senator in 1970 against Lloyd Bentsen Jr. – a prominent Texas Democrat whose own son had been placed in the same Texas Guard unit by the same Col. Staudt around the same time as Bush. On Election Day, before the polls closed, Guard commanders nominated both George W. Bush and Lloyd Bentsen III for promotion to first lieutenant – even as the elder Bentsen was defeating the elder Bush.

Three decades later, as Bush begins a campaign for the presidency that has invited new scrutiny of his life, Staudt and other Guard commanders insist no favoritism was shown to him. But others active in Texas politics in the 1960s say the Texas National Guard was open to string-pulling by the well-connected, and there are charges that the then-speaker of the Texas legislature helped George W. gain admittance.

Vietnam was clearly a crucible for Bush, as it was for Bill Clinton, Al Gore and most other men who left college in the late 1960s. Bush maintains that he joined the National Guard not to avoid service in Vietnam but because he wanted to be a fighter pilot. Rather than be drafted and serve in the infantry – an assignment Bush has acknowledged he did not want – he agreed to spend almost two years in flight training and another four years in part-time service.

That commitment, in turn, was to frame a period of aimlessness and drift that Bush now calls his "nomadic" years: As the war and the youth culture of the 1960s rocked America, Bush partied and dated with gusto, dabbled half-heartedly in business and politics, and flew jets part time. Apart from his Guard commitment, he was unemployed for stretches that lasted for months. His last job before he returned to the East to attend Harvard Business School, as a social worker helping poor children, was arranged by his father after George W. drunkenly confronted him one night and challenged him to a fight.

Even after returning to the elite classrooms of the Ivy League, Bush seemed adrift compared with his classmates. But Harvard offered the beginnings of a self-discipline – his mother called it "structure" – that was to propel him back to Texas with an ambition to build his own future.

As he drifted, Bush struggled with his own feelings about Vietnam and the turmoil he saw around him in America. Over time, he now says, he became disillusioned with the war, even as he believed that he should support the government that waged it. "In a sense he was trying to remain a centrist in a time when there wasn't anything left at the center," said Craig Stapleton, who is married to Bush's cousin and has been a confidant of Bush's for 25 years. "All of the sudden everybody moves and you're still standing in the center. He didn't dodge the military. But he didn't volunteer to go to Vietnam and get killed, either."


Grabbing a Slot In the National Guard



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bush learned that there were pilot openings in the Texas Air National Guard during Christmas vacation of his senior year at Yale, when he called Staudt, the commander of the 147th Fighter Group, and, he said, "found out what it took to apply."
"He recalls hearing from friends while he was home over the Christmas break that the Guard was looking for pilots and that Colonel Staudt was the person to contact," said his communications director, Karen Hughes. She said Bush did not recall who those friends were.

Retired Col. Rufus G. Martin, then personnel officer in charge of the 147th Fighter Group, said the unit was short of its authorized strength, but still had a long waiting list, because of the difficulty getting slots in basic training for recruits at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. Martin said four openings for pilots were available in the 147th in 1968, and that Bush got the last one.

Staudt, the colonel who twice had himself photographed with Bush, said his status as a congressman's son "didn't cut any ice." But others say that it was not uncommon for well-connected Texans to obtain special consideration for Air Guard slots. In addition to Bush and Bentsen, many socially or politically prominent young men were admitted to the Air Guard, according to former officials; they included the son of then-Sen. John Tower and at least seven members of the Dallas Cowboys.

"The well-to-do kids had enough sense to get on the waiting list," Martin said. "Some [applicants] thought they could just walk in the door and sign up."

One address for those seeking help getting in was Ben Barnes, a Democrat who was then the speaker of the Texas House and a protege of Gov. John B. Connally. A top aide to Barnes, Nick Kralj, simultaneously served as aide to the head of the Texas Air National Guard, the late Brig. Gen. James M. Rose.

An anonymous letter addressed to a U.S. attorney in Texas, produced in a discovery proceeding for an ongoing lawsuit, charged that Barnes assisted Bush in getting into the Guard. The suit was brought by the former director of the Texas Lottery Commission, who believes Barnes, now a lobbyist, may have played a role in his dismissal.

In a deposition for the suit, Kralj confirmed that he would get calls from Barnes or his chief of staff, Robert Spelling, "saying so-and-so is interested in getting in the Guard." Kralj said he would then forward the names to Gen. Rose.

In an interview, Barnes also acknowledged that he sometimes received requests for help in obtaining Guard slots. He said he never received such a call from then-Rep. Bush or anyone in the Bush family.

However, when asked if an intermediary or friend of the Bush family had ever asked him to intercede on George W.'s behalf, Barnes declined to comment. Kralj, in his deposition, said he could not recall any of the names he gave to Gen. Rose.

Hughes, Bush's spokeswoman, said: "The governor has no knowledge of anyone making inquiries on his behalf."

Martin and others said Bush was quickly accepted because he was willing to sign up for the intensive training and six years of service required of fighter pilots. "It was very difficult to find someone who would commit himself to the rigorous training that was required," says Martin.

Bush, said Staudt, "said he wanted to fly just like his daddy."

Bush's father had volunteered for service in World War II at the age of 18 and was shot down while flying combat missions in the Pacific theater. By enlisting in the Guard, his son not only avoided Vietnam but was able to spend much of his time on active duty in his home town of Houston, flying F-102 fighter interceptors out of Ellington Air Force Base.

In discussing his own decision, he has always said his main consideration was that he wanted to be a pilot, and the National Guard gave him a chance to do that. In 1989 he tried to describe his own thought process to a Texas interviewer. "I'm saying to myself, 'What do I want to do?' I think I don't want to be an infantry guy as a private in Vietnam. What I do decide to want to do is learn to fly."

Asked in a recent interview whether he was avoiding the draft, Bush said, "No, I was becoming a pilot."

Four months before enlisting, Bush reported at Westover Air Force Base in Massachusetts to take the Air Force Officers Qualification Test. While scoring 25 percent for pilot aptitude – "about as low as you could get and be accepted," according to Martin – and 50 percent for navigator aptitude in his initial testing, he scored 95 percent on questions designed to reflect "officer quality," compared with a current-day average of 88 percent.

Among the questions Bush had to answer on his application forms was whether he wanted to go overseas. Bush checked the box that said: "do not volunteer."

Bush said in an interview that he did not recall checking the box. Two weeks later, his office provided a statement from a former, state-level Air Guard personnel officer, asserting that since Bush "was applying for a specific position with the 147th Fighter Group, it would have been inappropriate for him to have volunteered for an overseas assignment and he probably was so advised by the military personnel clerk assisting him in completing the form."

During a second interview, Bush himself raised the issue.

"Had my unit been called up, I'd have gone . . . to Vietnam," Bush said. "I was prepared to go."

But there was no chance Bush's unit would be ordered overseas. Bush says that toward the end of his training in 1970, he tried to volunteer for overseas duty, asking a commander to put his name on the list for a "Palace Alert" program, which dispatched qualified F-102 pilots in the Guard to the Europe and the Far East, occasionally to Vietnam, on three- to six-month assignments.

He was turned down on the spot. "I did [ask] – and I was told, 'You're not going,' " Bush said.

HunterGatherer
February 12, 2004, 03:50 AM
Only pilots with extensive flying time – at the outset, 1,000 hours were required – were sent overseas under the voluntary program. The Air Force, moreover, was retiring the aging F-102s and had ordered all overseas F-102 units closed down as of June 30, 1970.

After basic training at Lackland and his commissioning as a second lieutenant in 1968, Bush got what amounted to a two-month-plus vacation that enabled him to head to Florida to work for a Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate, Edward J. Gurney. Put on inactive duty status, Bush arrived in early September and stayed through Election Day, riding the press plane, handing out releases, and making sure traveling reporters woke up in time. He occasionally returned to Houston for weekend Guard duty.

In late November, Bush was sent to Moody Air Force Base outside Valdosta, Ga., for year-long undergraduate flight school. Bush impressed fellow* trainees with the way he learned to handle a plane, but he became a celebrity for something else. In the middle of his training, President Richard M. Nixon sent a plane down to fetch him for an introductory date with his older daughter Tricia, according to fellow trainee Joseph A. Chaney. It did not lead to another date, but the story lives on. So does memory of the graduation ceremony: Rep. Bush gave the commencement speech.

In December 1969, George W. returned to Houston to hone his skills and eventually fly solo on the all-weather F-102, firing its weapons and conducting intercept missions against supersonic targets. He learned with a verve that impressed his superiors, becoming the the first hometown graduate of the 147th's newly established Combat Crew Training School. The group's public relations office celebrated his solo flight in March 1970 with a press release that began:

"George Walker Bush is one member of the younger generation who doesn't get his kicks from pot or hashish or speed. . . . As far as kicks are concerned, Lt. Bush gets his from the roaring afterburner of the F-102."

Brig. Gen. John Scribner, director of the Texas Military Forces Museum in Austin, said it was only natural that the Guard would have publicized Bush's service with special ceremonies and press releases. "That's how they do things, play it up big, especially since he was a congressman's son. That was important to the Guard," he said.


No Career in Mind, No Rush to Settle Down



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bush graduated from Combat Crew Training School on June 23, 1970, having fulfilled his two years of active duty. But he still flew the F-102 Delta Daggers a few times a month; his unit kept two of the fighters, fully armed, on round-the-clock alert and needed the pilots to man them. With no career in mind, Bush was still "looking," as his mother said – looking for work and looking for his road. He seemed to be in no rush to settle down, which his mother said was fine by his parents.
Barbara Bush said she recalled that her father-in-law, Prescott Bush, came to Yale in the late 1940s and told her husband that " 'you don't have to make up your mind now what you're going to be when you grow up.' " She added: "I think we told our children that. . . . I'm sure George did."

George W. promptly took a one-bedroom apartment at one of the most attractive complexes in Houston at the time, the Chateaux Dijon. A popular spot for singles, it offered fancy street lamps and striped awnings and six pools filled with ambitious secretaries, students and young businessmen. Bush relished his bachelor life there. He played hard, plunging into all-day water volleyball games, but left frequently for 24-hour flight duty in the alert shack at Ellington Field.

"He did some night-flying as I recall," said Don Ensenat, a Yale classmate who lived with him in Houston. "No alcohol 24 hours before. They had to keep planes on alert all the time." Bush had to be ready to scramble in his F-102 after any flying objects that Air Force radars couldn't figure out.

Coincidentally, Bush's future wife, Laura Welch, a public school librarian, lived at the Chateaux Dijon too, but they didn't meet. Bush dated other women frequently, but none steadily.

"He had a couple of girls that were more than one date, but nothing that looked like a serious romance," Ensenat said. "Dates and the opposite sex were always high on the agenda. He was always enjoyable to be around. But we didn't do anything anybody else in their twenties didn't do."

Ensenat said he never saw Bush use illegal drugs.

That fall, as his father raced Bentsen for the Senate seat, both Bush and Ensenat, who had already entered law school at the University of Houston, applied for admission to the University of Texas law school. Both were rejected, though Ensenat later became a lawyer. Then, after losing to Bentsen, Bush's father was named ambassador to the United Nations by President Nixon. The Bushes moved to New York, leaving their eldest son to rely on his family's old school and corporate ties to find a job.

Bush called Robert H. Gow, a Yale man who had roomed with the senior Bush's cousin Ray in college and who had been an executive at the senior Bush's Zapata Off-Shore Co. In 1969, Gow left Zapata and started Stratford of Texas, a Houston-based agricultural company with diverse interests: from cattle to chickens to indoor, non-blooming tropical plants.

"We weren't looking for someone, but I thought this would be a talented guy we should hire, and he was available," Gow said. In early 1971, Gow gave Bush a job as a management trainee. He was required to wear a coat and tie and dispatched around the country and even to Central America, looking for plant nurseries that Stratford might acquire. The newly buttoned-down businessman also moved into a garage apartment that he shared with Ensenat off Houston's North Boulevard, an old 1920s neighborhood close to downtown.

"We traveled to all kinds of peculiar places, like Apopka, Florida, which was named the foliage capital of the world," said Peter C. Knudtzon, another Zapata alumnus who was Stratford's executive vice president and Bush's immediate boss.

Once or twice a month, Bush would announce that he had flight duty and off he would go, sometimes taking his F-102 from Houston to Orlando and back. "It was really quite amazing," Knudtzon said. "Here was this young guy making acquisitions of tropical plants and then up and leaving to fly fighter planes."

Bush learned the ropes quickly, putting in long hours, and fitting in smoothly – but this wasn't the place for the impatient young man. He would later refer to his time at Stratford as a dull coat-and-tie job. Within weeks he was talking to Gow and Knudtzon about his future, questioning, searching – but never coming to any firm conclusion. His bosses recall today that he was weighing whether he should pursue public service or stick it out in the business arena to build some security.

Bush stayed at Stratford only about nine months, and by fall 1971 he was flirting – albeit very briefly – with running for the state legislature. The Houston Post reported the possibility in a story that misnamed him "George Bush Jr."

In the late spring of 1972, Bush was again looking, when he joined another political campaign. This time he helped longtime family friend Jimmy Allison work in Alabama on the U.S. Senate campaign of Republican Winton M. "Red" Blount against longtime Democratic incumbent John J. Sparkman. Bush moved to Alabama and worked until November as political director for Blount, who lost by a wide margin.

By the end of 1972, Bush's father was mulling over a new job offer from Nixon – to be chairman of the Republican National Committee. With his parents back in Washington, Bush went to stay with them for the holidays and was involved in one of the most notorious incidents of his "nomadic" years. He took his 16-year-old brother Marvin out drinking, ran over a neighbor's garbage cans on the way home, and when his father confronted him, challenged him to go "mano a mano" outside.

There was no fight, and Bush was apparently able to mollify his father with the news that he had been accepted for the following fall at Harvard Business School. But with nothing to do until then, his father decided it was time to give this restless young man some broader exposure to real life.

Shortly after Christmas, Bush began working as a counselor with black youngsters in Houston's Third Ward in a program called PULL (Professionals United for Leadership) for Youth. The brainchild of the late John L. White, a former professional football player and civic leader, it was set up for kids up to 17 in a warehouse on McGowen Street and it offered sports, crafts, field trips and big-name mentors from the athletic, entertainment and business worlds.

Bush and his brother Marvin, who tagged along for the summer weeks, were the only whites in the place. "They stood out like a sore thumb," said Muriel Simmons Henderson, who was one of PULL's senior counselors. "John White was a good friend of their father. He told us that the father wanted George W. to see the other side of life. He asked John if he would put him in there."

Dressed in khaki, with his pants torn at the knees, Bush managed to fit right in. He "came early and stayed late," in the words of one former employee, playing basketball and wrestling with the youngsters, taking them on field trips to juvenile prisons so they could see that side of life and resolve not to end up there themselves. He also taught them not to run when a police cruiser came by.

"He was a super, super guy," said "Big Cat" Ernie Ladd, a 6-foot-9, 320-pound pro football great and PULL luminary who stopped by frequently. "If he was a stinker, I'd say he was a stinker. But everybody loved him so much. He had a way with people. . . . They didn't want him to leave." One little boy in particular, a 6-or-maybe-7-year-old named Jimmy Dean, made a special connection with Bush. "He was an adorable kid," said Edgar Arnold, PULL's operating director. "Everybody liked him, but he bypassed all these famous athletes, all these giants, and picked out George Bush, and vice versa." The two became inseparable. If George was a little late, Jimmy would wait for him on the stoop. "At business meetings," Arnold said, "that kid would be on top of George, head on his shoulders." When Jimmy showed up shoeless, George bought him shoes.

Bush says he heard many years later that little Jimmy Dean was killed by gunfire as a teenager. "He was like my adopted little brother."

In keeping with family tradition, Bush did not boast of his pedigree, or even mention it, to others at PULL. "I didn't know he was of a silver spoon nature," Henderson said.

His car, like his clothes, carried no hint of it. "He had a bomb of a car," she remembered. "It was the pits . . . always full of stuff, clothes, papers. No one could ride in it with him. . . . He never put himself in the position of looking down his nose at someone, like, 'I've got all this money, my father is George Bush.' He never talked about his father. He was so down to earth. . . . You could not help liking him. He was always fun."


Back to New England And Another School



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To start at Harvard, Bush needed early release from Guard duty in Texas, and he got it easily, about eight months short of a full six years. A Bush spokesman, Dan Bartlett, said early departures were quite common and, in Bush's case, appropriate because his unit had phased out the F-102s. Bush was transferred to a reserve unit in Boston for the rest of his time, Bartlett noted.
Arriving in Cambridge in September 1973 in his spray-painted Cutlass and scruffy clothes, Bush was not at all what his classmates expected when the word spread that he was indeed the son of the Republican National Committee chairman.

"One of my first recollections of him," says classmate Marty Kahn, "was sitting in class and hearing the unmistakable sound of someone spitting tobacco. I turned around and there was George sitting in the back of the room in his [National Guard] bomber jacket spitting in a cup. You have to remember this was Harvard Business School. You just didn't see that kind of thing."

Classmates vividly remember Bush as an iconoclast and a character, someone who didn't fit the tailored mold of business students in the nation's premier graduate program. Many of the students who arrived that fall, like Bush, had been out of college and working a few years. But unlike Bush, a good number were returning to school with a road map of where they were heading: Wall Street.

Bush's entry into the program came five years after his graduation from Yale, and after a series of dead-end or unfulfilling jobs. He was 27 and clearly had not found his niche yet. "A lot of people went to Harvard Business School . . . for a job and all that. I went there to actually learn. And did," says Bush.

Indeed, many of those closest to him, including his mother, believe Harvard's rigorous academic demands brought his life and potential career into focus. "Harvard was a great turning point for him. I don't think he'd say that as much as I would," said Barbara Bush. "I think he learned what is that word? Structure."

Bush shrugged off the trappings of Harvard and avoided the official clubs that would showcase him in the yearbook and look good on his resume. Instead, he showed up for class looking like he had just rolled out of bed in the morning, often sat in the back of the room chewing gum or dipping snuff and made it clear to everyone he had no interest in Wall Street.

He was one of the few people who posed for his yearbook mug shot in a sports shirt, a wrinkled one at that. The other prominent picture of him in the book showed him sitting in the back row of class with longish hair blowing a huge bubble.

"This was HBS and people were fooling around with the accouterments of money and power," recalled April Foley, who dated Bush for a brief period and has remained friends with him. "While they were drinking Chivas Regal, he was drinking Wild Turkey. They were smoking Benson and Hedges and he's dipping Copenhagen, and while they were going to the opera he was listen to Johnny Rodriguez over and over and over and over."

What Bush wanted to get out of Harvard were some practical business fundamentals. He wanted to do something entrepreneurial, he told his pals, but he wasn't sure what. He mused about running for office but told friends he had to make some money first. Of this everyone was certain: George W. Bush would never end up on the East Coast. He was going back to Texas.


Staff researchers Nathan Abse, Madonna Lebling and Mary Lou White contributed to this report.


© 1999 The Washington Post Company


With emphasis added for those who may have forgotten that it was posted on The High Road in another thread in which they participated. :rolleyes: Please note the date of the article.

*That means there was more than just Bush present. For those who may not know what "fellow" means when used in that context.

HERE: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63412&highlight=elite+classrooms

Sean Smith
February 12, 2004, 08:58 AM
bountyhunter,

What happend to the "Bush was AWOL!" battle cry? Now we've got "people in the National Guard during a certain era were weenies!" as a fall-back position. What's next? "Bush's mom was fat and his nose is pointy"? ;)

That force of subs retired the previous air fleet of B-52's who had flown continuously in the air spaces near Russia carrying enough nukes to vaporize their country. If you want to know who to thank that the Russians never pressed the button, those are the guys.


Until I read Col Campenni's article, I never realized it was the Texas Air National Guard that had broken the back of the communist empire with the F-102.

Some hints for you:

Bombers don't provide air defense because they aren't fighters.
Submarines don't provide air defense, because they are underwater.
And your final comment is just a straw man, as has been noted earlier.

Any more "knowledge" for us, oh great military expert? :D

Thumper
February 12, 2004, 09:01 AM
What happend to the "Bush was AWOL!" battle cry?

I pointed that out earlier, Sean. He quickly scrambled and basically tried to say "well, they're not mutually exclusive..."

:rolleyes:

whoami
February 12, 2004, 10:27 AM
Guys, I think you're missing a lot of the subtext of bountyhunter's comments in this thread...here, let me shed a little light:

In the desert shield campaign (prior to desert storm), the very FIRST reserve unit mobilized to AD in ********** was my wife's Navy Medical unit which supplies the corpsman to the Marine (and is attached to the unit at camp pandleton). The Navy reserve was activated prior to any active duty units being shipped out or even drawing their orders. Those Navy personell were required to staff the hospital ships USS Mercy, Uss Comfort, and USS Hope which were deployed into the area as well as backfill slots at bases in the state where positions were unfilled. Her unit was also one of the last to be released from active duty.

The Navy Medical units were also stripped clean of the "skills people" before combat deployment, all of the corpsmen and doctors were activated prior to any combat opertions.

I'll give you a hint: it's the same branch of the service that actually owns the Marines (it's written across the crest for the Marine Corps). It's the US Navy.

First of all, the actual "cold war" as it presented a significant threat to the US was OVER by the 70's. Why? Because the US had deployed a fleet of nuclear missiles equipped sibmarines the Soviets could not track. The absolute definition of a perfect deterrent: a force which can surface, unleash it's weapons, and lay to ashes the entire Soviet Union. Their fangs had been pulled. Period.

Seems nothing more to me than 'if it ain't Navy, it just ain't'. Unless someone comes forward with proof Bush was 'riding the waves' during the Vietnam years, bh just ain't gonna be happy :D

gburner
February 12, 2004, 12:00 PM
Bounty Hunter
I was quite young at the time, but lived in an Air Force household and gloried in all things Air Force. Some of my memories from that time are of newspaper
or magazine stories, often accompanied by photos, of Soviet Bear or Badger bombers from bases in Cuba or Kamchatka or some northern European Warsaw Pact base being 'escorted' away from our coastline by Century model fighters of
(guess who) the Air National Guard. I'm
willing to be that these bombers were not carrying Stolichnya in their bomb bays nor were they coming to America to pick up a couple dozen Krispie Kremes and go back to Mother Russia. The Air National Guard, coordnated by NORAD, did indeed play a vital defense role of protecting the United States from air penetration by unfriendlies...
still does. The Colonel is the real deal and so was Bush.
(Strother Martin voice on)
'What we have here is a failure to communicate. Every now and again we get a man like Bounty Hunter who just won't see the truth as it is presented to him.
It irritates him and then he wants to fight...we don't wanna fight with the man but he wants it so he gets it.'
(Strother Martin voice off).

gburner
February 12, 2004, 12:07 PM
Bounty,

BTW....Boomers don't need to surface to fire their ICBMs.

papaone
February 12, 2004, 12:50 PM
At least under our present president, two terrorist nations have been defeated. He didn't tie the hands of our forces and he let the generals fight the war. He did not just lob a few missles at the enemy for a feel good response like the COWARD Klinton. He took his job seriously and gave the Moslem fanatics hell to pay.

Why not just give honor to whom honor is due.

Bountyhunter: I do not know you and so I am asking this question, not as a potential putdown, but what is your military history. I was in
the Air Force and did not see combat as there were no wars being fought at the time. I have an honorable discharge.

Thanks for your kind response.

ojibweindian
February 12, 2004, 01:01 PM
Demal

I can answer that for you.

His father was a decorated war hero and his wife serves in the Navy.

His words:
I would have been the third except I had the blind luck of getting a high draft lottery number, or I would have been on the next boat to that dump.

comes from this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63901&perpage=25&pagenumber=4

A question for BH;
Why did you wait for the draft to take you? If you wanted to serve, you could have volunteered. I did, my mother and father did, and my youngest brother did.

Thumper
February 12, 2004, 02:04 PM
Good research, ojibwe.

Telling.

ojibweindian
February 12, 2004, 02:05 PM
Thumper

Thanks.

It is telling, isn't it?

yayarx7
February 12, 2004, 02:21 PM
Having been both active duty and reserve, I can see why some have expressed opinions they have. It will have to suffice to say I Have a very low regard for those who downplay the role of the reserve components in the defense of our country. Even if I was guilty of it in the past when I was active.

I will "Take the High Road" on the other issues here, difficult as it is.

papaone
February 12, 2004, 03:29 PM
Thanks for the response. :cool: :cool:

bountyhunter
February 12, 2004, 07:54 PM
A question for BH;
Why did you wait for the draft to take you? If you wanted to serve, you could have volunteered. I did, my mother and father did, and my youngest brother did.;

Let's see. One brother volunteered for two tours and came home physically OK, but with some screws loose (moved to Florida and became a Jehovah's witness). Other brother in. Father 100% disabled from heart attack after his 33 years of military service (retired about six years prior, but didn't get to enjoy the retirement long).

Here's your answer as to why I didn't enlist:

WE GAVE ENOUGH.

By the law, I stood under the draft lottery in my year of eligibilty the same as everybody else did that year and drew number 225. They drafted up to number 175 that year. So, one member of the family didn't go to war... which is 100% irrelevant to the fact I spent my whole life in a service family and suffered the same life style. And is also completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not George W Bush fulfilled his service committments in Alabama or blew it off because nobody cared. That is the question raised in this thread, and nobody has proven that one yet.



From san Jose Mercury News search today:

1. Dentist Doesn't Remember Treating Bush
ALLEN G. BREED / Associated Press
The White House released dental records intended to support President Bush's account of his Air National Guard service in Alabama, while several members of the Guard unit said in interviews they don't remember ever seeing Bush at their Montgomery base. ... and Wednesday had proven that Bush fulfilled his military obligation. McClellan said requests ...
Thursday, February 12, 2004


6. Payroll records leave gap in Bush's military career
By Ron Hutcheson / Knight Ridder
President Bush on Tuesday released payroll records and other documents tracking his service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War, but the paper trail didn't close all the gaps in his military record.
Wednesday, February 11, 2004 (Mercury News)

7. Bush moved to Alabama unit without Air Force permission
BY LARRY COHLER-ESSES AND BOB PORT / New York Daily News
George W. Bush left his Texas Air National Guard assignment and moved to Alabama in 1972 even though the Air Force denied his request for a transfer, according to his military records. ... was AWOL - has prodded records documenting his service into public scrutiny. While they ...
Wednesday, February 11, 2004

ojibweindian
February 12, 2004, 08:18 PM
And is also completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not George W Bush fulfilled his service committments in Alabama or blew it off because nobody cared.

But it is completely relevant; it goes to your credibility.

By the law, I stood under the draft lottery in my year of eligibilty the same as everybody else did that year and drew number 225.

Bush did more than wait for the draft to take him. He volunteered. You want to disparage a man who did serve his country, but cry foul when your contribution to the defense of our nation is called into question. Highly hypocritical.

HunterGatherer
February 12, 2004, 09:44 PM
Unless someone comes forward with proof Bush was 'riding the waves' during the Vietnam years, bh just ain't gonna be happy That might depend on what wave Bush may have been riding.


*nudge-nudge, wink-wink, know what I mean?* lol :p

thefitzvh
February 12, 2004, 11:09 PM
1. Dentist Doesn't Remember Treating Bush

Ok.... if you were a dentist, would you remember treating one particular LT 30 some years ago?

I worked in the Army Honor guard for a while. I couldn't name to you ONE PERSON that I did a funeral for.

6. Payroll records leave gap in Bush's military career

Gaps in records don't mean a thing. I've only been in since 2000, and I still have GAPS in my record, which I am trying to fix.

7. Bush moved to Alabama unit without Air Force permission

Already been refuted. He recieved permission from his commander to go there.

WE GAVE ENOUGH

So, you gave enough because EVERYONE BUT YOU SERVED.

But bush DID serve, and he didn't give enough

Sounds like, even if he only served for one day, that's STILL more than you, so the WE GAVE ENOUGH statement has no weight.

You're scrambling for everything you can get here...

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Criticise bush for bad policy, criticize him for bad intel, but he DAMN SURE served his country. More than most of the people that sit around and criticize his service.

James

jimpeel
February 13, 2004, 01:31 AM
This is a sure fire flame-bait thread led, of course, by the usual suspects.

I'm outa here.

PATH
February 13, 2004, 01:57 AM
It looks like the DEm's are gonna play really dirty this time out.

The bottom line is that no one can prove Bush did anything wrong. PERIOD!

The Dem's should watch out because dirty politics goes both ways and I think John Kerry's liberal record and his anyti-military stances are going to come to the fore.

The party has moved so far to the left that it is playing in the bullpen. It is not my fathers Democratic party. It has been hijacked by the lunatic fringe.
Don't care to engage in flames but I'm a voting for George! :neener:

Sean Smith
February 13, 2004, 07:57 AM
So, one member of the family didn't go to war... which is 100% irrelevant to the fact I spent my whole life in a service family and suffered the same life style.

Bull. You were along for the ride. Not at all the same thing.

Art Eatman
February 13, 2004, 08:27 AM
Nuff.

Art

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