Short sticks


PDA






Pages : 1 [2]

Nematocyst
July 8, 2012, 08:51 AM
That's why I've made Kelly McCann's ideas the core of my study for now, Owen, until I can find a personal trainer. (None in my region and I'm financially unable to travel to do it.) He makes the same point emphatically clear. I'll try to dig up a quote later.

If you enjoyed reading about "Short sticks" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Steel Talon
July 8, 2012, 10:06 PM
The beauty of FMA "ARNIS" ESCRIMA" etc. is that it's not about only a stick battle. Its also about footwork, angles and targeting. The sticks took the place of the sword and dagger, With out the Sword dagger or sticks then it translates into open hand fighting.

One of the benefits of FMA is that they start you out quickly with weapons where as traditional Karate takes time to advance into training.

Dirty Bob
July 9, 2012, 01:56 AM
I encourage anyone interested in short stick to look up John Styers book Cold Steel. It covers rifle/bayonet, knife fighting, knife throwing, unarmed combat, and the stick. It shows its roots in WWII and emphasizes simplicity and repeated, hard hits with the stick at very close quarters.

Your local library can borrow it from another library, using a service called "Interlibrary Loan." There are enough copies in libraries in the US that it shouldn't be too difficult for anyone in this country to get their hands on Styers' book.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

JimStC
July 10, 2012, 05:14 PM
I have been working on some short sticks. The wood is harvested from my place, mostly locust. In the cane thread a poster, mentioned that he prefers not to carry a wooden stick that had the bark removed. My short sticks are whittled down to the solid wood. I am able to identify weakness in the wood and discard the stick or repair the weakness. Fact is, as a beginner, by no means an expert, I will not carry a stick that I do not know its strengths and weaknesses. Only way I can know that is to strip it completely. I sand it and fill knots with wood glue and sand again. I carve grip grooves on the handle end and drill a hole for a cord if I am inclined to use one.
Anyone have comments on my method? Bark or no bark????
I just received a two nice pieces of wood: osage orange and KY coffebean. Neither have bark on them. Guess I need a lathe to get the most out of them. The osage is 5' and the KY is 4'. Any thoughts on these?

Dirty Bob, Bought the book on Amazon. Thanks for the recommendation

Jim

P.B.Walsh
July 10, 2012, 05:31 PM
Does your drilling the lanyard hole or carving a handle have any affect on strength?

JimStC
July 10, 2012, 05:57 PM
PB, good questions. My handle grooves are done with a rasp and finished with sand paper. Just guessing but I don't think I cut enough wood to weaken the handle. The grooves help the grip significantly. I evaluate the handle before I cut the grooves. If it doesn't look strong I cut off the weak part.
The lanyard hole is just large enough for paracord. I drill the hole 1.5" from the base. Seems effective but my guess is that it may compromise the wood strength. Nice thing about locust is that it is very hard, so I can make mistakes without getting penalized as a beginner.
If you want a piece of locust shoot a PM with your address. Freebie for a college student.

Jim

Owen Sparks
July 10, 2012, 06:51 PM
Does your drilling the lanyard hole or carving a handle have any affect on strength?

I would avoid both as they turn a common piece stick of wood into a weapon in the eyes of the law. It would look a lot better in court if you had to hit someone with a "stick" rather than a purpos made billy club.

P.B.Walsh
July 10, 2012, 06:57 PM
Thanks for the offer Jim, but I have enough sticks as in that I am experimenting on as of now. Thank you though!

JimStC
July 10, 2012, 06:58 PM
Owen,
Then why have a concealed carry license? It is about responding with deadly force when permitted by law. This is a back up just like a knife.

Jim

Carl Levitian
July 10, 2012, 10:44 PM
"Owen,
Then why have a concealed carry license? It is about responding with deadly force when permitted by law. This is a back up just like a knife.

Jim"


Because a stick is part of a layered defense, not just a back up like a knife. Just because the law lets you carry a gun, does not mean it's necessary to use deadly force if there's alternatives. Shoot someone, justified or not, is not a good thing if you can use other means to go home at the end of the day without giant legal fees or having to face a grand jury. We live in weird times, and deadly force is absolutely last option. Break some punks hand or wrist and there's very little fall out.

Carl.

Owen Sparks
July 10, 2012, 11:44 PM
I have posted this several times before but I often carry a two piece pool cue while in the city. I am always within walking distance of some bar or pool hall and no one can prove that I am not on the way to shoot some 8 ball. If I do have to use it as a weapon it will appear spontanious and without premeditation or malace of forethought like a using a purpose built weapon would.

Gordon
July 11, 2012, 12:50 AM
Here Damnit, when you care to get the very best:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAD-DOG-Knives-CARBON-FIBER-FIghting-Stick-Set-Kali-EscrIma-Martial-Arts-/180922634416?pt=Collectible_Knives&hash=item2a1fd450b0

JimStC
July 11, 2012, 06:13 AM
Carl and Owen,
Thank you both for the insight. The layered defense system is a concept I can understand.
Owen, I have read with interest your posts regarding your pool stick and agree completely.
Where my comment was based was from the profound effect of Daisy Cutter's post (#43) on my thinking from the Faster than any switchblade thread.
Of course he is in a much more intense and dangerous situation on a recurring basis than me. Nonetheless, the concept of showing overwhelming force to
de-escalate a situation seems quite logical to me.
My point of departure was that I was in a statutory deadly force scenario. I still understand the desire to go home afterwards with no need for a lawyer. I just want to be sure I go home.

Jim

Carl Levitian
July 11, 2012, 08:03 AM
In the couple of years I served on the Trinidad Colorado police department, I never had to use my issued service revolver. But on several occasions, I did have to use the issued night stick. Nobody got killed, but it got the job done very well. The police department was my first brush with the layered weapon system. It does work.

JimStC
July 11, 2012, 06:51 PM
Gordon,
I told my wife that it is your fault. Bid on the Mad Dog sticks..... Meeting with a trainer on Friday. If I don't win the bid, I need to find an alternative. Thanks a bunch:banghead:
Jim

sidheshooter
July 11, 2012, 11:54 PM
If you don't win the bid, scroll down to Kali sticks, here:

http://www.dravenindustries.com/impact-tools.php

;)

Nematocyst
July 12, 2012, 09:59 AM
^ Way less expensive. $150 v $375?

What's the $225 diff between them and the ebay sticks? :confused:

I remember bookmarking that site a couple of years ago.

I'm curious about the weight of a carbon fiber stick v hardwood, in terms of impact.
Seems like an 18" (for me) carbon fiber stick might lack "ooomph".

Gordon
July 12, 2012, 10:15 AM
I've handled those MD sticks and they are pretty heavy as his composite is extremely dense. Also not the length.

Owen Sparks
July 12, 2012, 12:55 PM
I think you could buy a stock piece of micarta and cut it to length for a lot less.
I have looked into this before but it all comes in 4' lengths which means that I can't get but one 28" fighting stick or one 36" walking cane out.

Nematocyst
July 12, 2012, 02:25 PM
I could get two 18"'ers of of 48".

Any known sources, preferably on the east coast where one could purchase just a rod or two (rather than $250 min purchase)?

(Yes, I'm being lazy not to google it; well, actually I did search "micarta rod",
but I just don't feel like wading through page after page of technical specs with trade names I don't know.)

Owen Sparks
July 12, 2012, 02:58 PM
I have looked into this before and it seems that a 4' length was around $120. I just hate to waste a good bit of it when all I need is 28" to 36".

JimStC
July 12, 2012, 08:26 PM
Nem,
Look at the price of the Mad dog knives. One seems to follow the other.
After some research, I can't find another set of MD sticks anywhere. So, part of the price differential is supply-demand based and the other is the price MD is getting for their main product line. Just thinking out loud.
Also back in my racing days, having purchased myriad carbon fiber parts for lightening purposes, I learned that it is not an inexpensive material.
Personally, I find the concept of carbon fiber sticks intriguing. Is micarta better? Is any other material better? I have no idea. I do suspect that, if for some reason these don't fit my purpose, there is a good probability that I can get most of the price back in a subsequent sale. Just guessing.......

Jim

Nematocyst
July 12, 2012, 08:44 PM
Jim, I'm a science guy, but a biologist, not a materials scientist.

Still, seems like I read somewhere that carbon fiber has good strength along vertical lines, but not cross-sectional, like sheering, like would happen for a stick in a regular blow. I read that when researching whether my carbon fiber trekking pole could be used like a regular walking stick for striking a la Irish fighting sticks. The suggestion was, no.

Still, if MD is selling these as kali sticks, that seems a counterargument.

Maybe others here will have better info than me. (In this case, that wouldn't take much. :D )

Deltaboy
July 12, 2012, 10:13 PM
Find a good used hickory 3/4 - 1 inch dowel and you will be set for under 20 bucks.

I finally broke my 1/2 broom handle sticks by abusing the telephone pole behind my house.

Nematocyst
July 12, 2012, 10:19 PM
I see an experiment here: Hickory v Micarta.

Natural v synthetic. A test to the death (breakage). Who will win?

Of course, we'll have to throw in some osage orange, mullberry and other natural, too.

Gordon
July 12, 2012, 11:30 PM
All though the material of MD handles and the sticks (and Frequent Flyer blades) is proprietary I DO know that it is similar but much denser than G-10 and that is has "glass" fibers in it. He buys it in slabs and it is very pricey . The sticks were band sawed then turned and finished. It is NOT carbon fiber material and it is heavy.

Nematocyst
July 12, 2012, 11:36 PM
"It is NOT carbon fiber material ... "

Ah, that's important info.

JimStC
July 13, 2012, 07:35 PM
MAD DOG Knives CARBON FIBER Fighting Stick Set

Was out bid by $5.

Represented as CF. If not. I don't care as I didn't buy them.

Next.......

Jim

Nematocyst
July 13, 2012, 07:45 PM
I think you can do better, Jim. Probably an omen.

JimStC
July 13, 2012, 08:04 PM
Nem,
Agreed. Spent an hour with a trainer this morning and learned a lot. I will go slow and learn.

Jim

Gordon
July 13, 2012, 08:38 PM
Yeah , I don't own a pair of MD Sticks !I only have one !:)
There are tons of good fighting sticks out there these days! Since at 66 I am slowing so that my favorite rattan sticks are acting light in the shorts on impact.:uhoh: So going away from sticks as a first option!:)

JimStC
July 13, 2012, 08:45 PM
Gordon,
Please share your knowledge. Which sticks and what material?

Jim

Nematocyst
July 13, 2012, 08:46 PM
Gordon, IMO, your sig line is in the top 5 ever on THR. :D

Gordon
July 14, 2012, 01:17 AM
I like and have real Rattan Filipino sticks and have at least one good set left . Sure they wear but they can't be beat :D for rat a tat tat explosive Eskrima combinations IMHO. The MD sticks are heavier and absolutely will never break say the pros who have used them.MD made me one a little thicker than the sets and 27" long. I like it for knife and stick work. :evil:
But like I said I am getting old and slow.My trigger finger still works tho , and I know how to work a knife if forced to.

Nematocyst
July 14, 2012, 11:57 AM
Brief tangent for aging stick fighters.

But like I said I am getting old and slow.

Gordon, do yourself a big favor and read this (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/health/nutrition/31BEST.html?pagewanted=all), then take it to heart.

If we're going to be able to use sticks effectively at 80, we gotta do this.

I keep a copy of it on my desk, which is near my pullup bar, ab wheel and weights. I'm a student of Ross Enamait (by his books). I ride my bike or walk everyday.

I also take a LOT of motivation from these guys (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDCxH88-9X8), both because I appreciate the spirit with which they find ways to exercise, and because I know guys like that are out there - regardless of skin color (that's not the issue here) - and may want what I have on me. (Warning: language in that video may be offensive to some. Also, be sure to check out some of the videos linked to that one, especially about the guy named Hannibal.)

I'm slightly over 60, but the word "old" is not in my vocabulary, and I get up in people's faces in a nasty sort of way if they use it in my direction; my friends all know better. ;)

Older? Sure. I've been getting that since I was born.

But old? Never. It's a matter of principle for me.

Gordon
July 14, 2012, 07:37 PM
Still, scientifically you do slow and lose muscle mass. The amount of training to reduce it goes up expotentially from late 60s on!:mad:
However I have allways been a crazy brute , lifting engine blocks from my teen years , playing college football, Army Airborne Ranger,Army Reserve officer, DEA agent,Reserve deputy, ranch foreman, and for the last 25 years until today a heavy equipment mechanic. True I own the company but am still leading by example as I was taught.
I had to get a neer do well gang banger off my property last night(doesn't happen that often and George Zimmerman was the foremost thing in my mind if you can believe it) , I did it by command presence but if a gun came out I would NOT have pulled out my eskrima sticks :evil:

sidheshooter
July 15, 2012, 01:42 AM
As an aside, for anyone looking for a cheaper option, Amazon (of all places) has several lengths of nightstick for well under $20 bucks each. I snagged the 14" version (seen here with common objects for scale):

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=168218&stc=1&d=1342330357

I like the 14" myself, but they have other lengths available as well.

link to 14':

http://www.amazon.com/SHERIFF-SECURITY-ENFORCEMENT-QUALITY-LEATHER/dp/B001THTQW6/ref=pd_sim_sbs_misc_1

link to 12":

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00805E5GM/ref=sc_pgp__m_AY3EVT9KXP0YR_4?ie=UTF8&m=AY3EVT9KXP0YR&n=&s=&v=glance

link to 10":

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00805DJWS/ref=sc_pgp__m_AY3EVT9KXP0YR_5?ie=UTF8&m=AY3EVT9KXP0YR&n=&s=&v=glance

etc. etc... y'all get the idea. Not much to add by way of review; it's a sturdy, black stick.

FWIW.

hso
July 15, 2012, 10:54 PM
nightstick

There's no way to explain those as anything other than what they are and that lack of barely plausible deniability is a huge problem in jurisdictions that forbid the carrying of a "club". There are alternatives that hide in plane sight that might land you in trouble, but a billy club will certainly do it in the locale.

I might be able to sell the idea that my rattan escrima sticks were with me because I was headed to the school, but I'd rather have something that doesn't scream martial arts, but works as well.

Nematocyst
July 15, 2012, 11:10 PM
It does look a bit too black and shiny, don't it?

I've looked at 18" polycarb Monadnocks (http://www.copquest.com/25-2550.htm), too,
- man, you can't know how much I want one -
but decided the same about them.

I'll still acquire one eventually,
but it'll probably be a bed side and camp stick
that doesn't venture into public very often. :scrutiny:

Owen Sparks
July 16, 2012, 12:08 AM
My 2 piece pool cue is legal everywhere as it is not a 'weapon'.

michaelbsc
July 16, 2012, 12:19 AM
My 2 piece pool cue is legal everywhere as it is not a 'weapon'.

Neither are these.

http://www.stickman-escrima.com/Products/Flutes.htm

Nematocyst
July 16, 2012, 12:23 AM
Love the flute thing ^.

Also, at the age of 60+, I've decided to take up Lacrosse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrosse).

I'm going to need a good stick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacrosse_stick),
and I like some of these synthetic shafts (http://www.sportsunlimitedinc.com/stx-alliance-85-mens-attack-lacrosse-shaft.html).
(Check out the video; scroll down.)

I'll be walking back and forth from practice a lot,
so I'll be carrying that shaft often.

Dirty Bob
July 16, 2012, 12:35 AM
Those of us who own axes, hammers, mauls and other tools should probably keep spare handles on hand. Sears used to sell a long-handled half-hatchet (almost tomahawk length). They might still sell those, along with spare handles. Useful things to have on hand. Remember Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider:

"Nothing like a good piece of hickory."

Regarding sports equipment, there's a very funny rant about graphite shafts for golf clubs in the movie "Suicide Kings." Denis Leary (as a mob guy) uses one and then delivers the rant, ending with the immortal line: "I'm going back to steel."

sidheshooter
July 16, 2012, 01:23 AM
There's no way to explain those as anything other than what they are and that lack of barely plausible deniability is a huge problem in jurisdictions that forbid the carrying of a "club".

So don't lug it around. Dude, this is America; sometimes we buy stuff here just because it's fun! For a meager $13 plus shipping, I had no problem picking up something that is just going to lay around the house. Cheaper than a similarly useless .50 BMG... or any of my custom blades that are likewise poor carry choices in spats n' monocle land...
:evil:

hso
July 16, 2012, 07:25 AM
Dude, this is America :rolleyes:

I didn't say not to buy it and have it around the house/shop. Carrying it would be the problem in a lot of jurisdictions. Hiding in plain sight is a lot of what's important in carrying an impact self defense tool around. You don't have that challenge on your own property.

**

The flute looks interesting, but weight, lack thereof, then becomes a real consideration. The original iron flutes were...iron. Still, I'm going to have to get one, or more.

JimStC
July 16, 2012, 09:10 AM
Michaelbsc,
Thanks for the web site. Lot of nice sticks.

Jim

Owen Sparks
July 16, 2012, 10:53 AM
Those flute things are a variation of hollow tubes sold as a substitute for rattan. According to the website "a 28” stick only weighs 7 oz." This is far to light. A proper weapon should weigh over twice that much.

glistam
July 16, 2012, 12:40 PM
Maybe somebody makes them out of sufficiently thick steel.

Owen Sparks
July 16, 2012, 01:06 PM
How about a solid one pound brass flute? You could probably make it yourself on a drill press.

michaelbsc
July 16, 2012, 01:25 PM
A proper weapon should weigh over twice that much.

An improper weapon is far better than no weapon.

Anyone here ever see someone bring down a full grown buck with a wimpy little arrow that has little to no kinetic energy to deliver compared to a 30-06?

A flute smack in the eye is pretty disabling. Not that I'm capable of delivering that kind of blow, mind you. I'm not.

But the effectiveness of the weapon is as much a function of the operator as it is the weapon itself. Isn't that why you're supposed to practice?

Nematocyst
July 16, 2012, 01:29 PM
^ Excellent point, well said.

I love whimpy little arrows, too.

And whippy little calibers, like .30-30. :D

JimStC
July 16, 2012, 01:31 PM
The flute is ideal insofar as hidden in plain sight goes. I see the purpose clearly.

Jim

Gordon
July 16, 2012, 01:35 PM
And you can use the flute with curare tipped darts ! :rolleyes:

Owen Sparks
July 16, 2012, 02:16 PM
An improper weapon is far better than no weapon.


I am not too sure about that. I learned the hard way about lightweight sticks when I tried to break up a dog fight with an official 7 ounce rattan 'martial arts' stick. It had absolutely NO effect on the two 80 pound dogs. I doubt it would be any more effective on a crack head three times that size. Light sticks lack penetration. They can make a stinging welt to the skin but because they lack mass the energy does not penetrate enough to cause deep tissue trauma.

Rattan is used in martial arts practice precisely because its light weight makes it unlikely to cause a serious injury in case of an accident. It can also be twirled and swung very fast for impressive martial arts form demonstrations where the tendency is to use something a little bit lighter and a little bit faster until the stick is no longer a weapon but an accessory to a highly stylized dance.

Needles
July 16, 2012, 02:32 PM
Switch to waxwood, or learn to jab.

sidheshooter
July 16, 2012, 02:33 PM
I'm with Owen. Here is a real "Martial Arts" stick:

http://www.nihonzashi.com/japanese_weapons_tetsubo.aspx

(And before anyone says "you aren't going to carry that around"; it's true. But unless you are Jean Pierre Rampal, carrying a flute is totally lame too. In the real world, we will soon all be boiling down to canes, 3-inch folders and S&W 442 no-locks. Everything else is grist for the mill; making for one heckuva entertaining thread. Carry on with plastic flutes, cheap nightsticks and *very* expensive black rods, please! :D )

Nematocyst
July 16, 2012, 02:43 PM
Oh, man. Love those ^ clubs.

Now that's what I want by the bed,
or in the tent next to the revolver.

{Adds an 18" to wish list.}

I agree with Owen in theory and practice. But still, I'd rather be carrying a hollow plastic flute than stuck with open hands only.

Will a flute become my primary? Not a chance; not even a tertiary or quaternary. It's still a cool idea, especially for people who actually play flute. Great for averting muggings outside the symphony at the side entrance.

JimStC
July 16, 2012, 02:48 PM
Here is an interesting site. Custom Escrima sticks in oak, hickory or maple. Lengths: 22", 24", 26" 28". Be advised, their Ebay prices are $10 less expensive.

http://www.bukiyuushuu.com/escrima_sticks.html
Jim

hso
July 16, 2012, 04:43 PM
Maybe somebody makes them out of sufficiently thick steel.


I've been looking an iron flute for a couple of years and I can't find any. Let me know if you find anything equivalent (iron or steel).

hso
July 16, 2012, 04:49 PM
An improper weapon is far better than no weapon.


Gotta agree with Owen that anything is not always better than nothing. Impact tools have to have enough strength to be of use. That said, if you know what the limitations are of the self defense tool you have with you you can work knowing those limitations, but an improper/inadequate weapon is no substitute for a well made one and it is foolish to carry an improper one when you can carry a better one. Often you're better off fooling yourself by carrying the improper/inadequate whatsit in favor of something else or simply having the knowledge and training to use your hands/elbows/knees/feet.

Owen Sparks
July 16, 2012, 04:58 PM
Using a stick that is too light is sort of like substituting an open hand slap for a punch. It usually makes maters worse rather than ending the problem.

JimStC
July 16, 2012, 05:09 PM
After a less than good experience with CS I came across this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/221072719996?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

32" polypropylene "escrima" stick. At that length it could double for a cane.
Whoops, I used the c word in this thread. 30 lashes with a rattan stick!!

Jim

geologist
July 16, 2012, 06:21 PM
Another reason that rattan is used is because with age and stick on stick contact, it sags rather than breaks into projectiles. Thus it is safer for training. If you train stick on stick it is something to consider.

Carl Levitian
July 16, 2012, 06:31 PM
But the effectiveness of the weapon is as much a function of the operator as it is the weapon itself. Isn't that why you're supposed to practice?
__________________

That is the essence of the truth.

So many of you feel that a stick has to have weight enough for a good club, and you've painted yourself into a corner by putting blinders on as far as a number goes. The sad truth is, the hand bones take very little of an impact to break, and a hand with broken bones is not going to be holding a knife well enough to do you harm, or a fist to hurt you with. It's not what you hit with, it's what you hit, period. Even with heavy padded gloves, boxers with heavily taped hands still get broken fingers and hand bones. What do you think a high speed impact with a piece of ash is going to do?

I spent too many years of my life as a city boy in Washington D.C., to include some not so nice neighborhoods. I spent time on a police department, and I spent time in an improvised weapons class in the army. I regularly walk the streets of Baltimore and New York city. I've seen what works. A 14 inch piece of one inch broom handle can disable you. It all depends on what the operator of the stick is going after. The mind set is way more important than the tool, and software is better than hardware.

I'll even make the following offer to a doubter. Give me a ring, and I'll give you a magic marker. You sign a waver that I'm not responsible for your injuries, and I'll put up one thousand dollars if you can get me with the marker. Thats one thousand dollars cash, in hundreds. On the table before we start, and I'll count it in front of you. All you have to do is mark me with the marker.

Take of your blinders and open up the closed minds. A stick is not just a club. It's a blocker, snap strike tool, thrust tool against very particular targets. A short fast stick can strike repeated blows to specific targets faster than you can defend, and in the end, you will be disabled. I don't care who you are, a hand with broken bones is out of action, and opens up the person for more strikes. And I'm not talking about trying to club someone with a heavy jacket or what they think may be padding. I'm talking about targeting hands, wrist, eye's, and throat. I don't care if he's on crack, if he can't hold a weapon or see you, he's going to have a hard time hurting you.

Some of you repeat the same old stuff thats plain wrong. Knife against a short light stick, the knife guy looses if the stick guy knows what he's doing.

JimStC
July 16, 2012, 06:40 PM
Carl,
Outstanding post!
Edit to add: THR has an incredible amount of collective wisdom. Thanks to THR for providing this venue to share knowledge.
Jim

Nematocyst
July 16, 2012, 07:16 PM
Yup.

sidheshooter
July 16, 2012, 09:30 PM
Nice post, Carl.

I still think that there is a threshold where light is too light, and 7 oz for 28 inches crosses that line for me. My 16" airweight ASP weighs more than that at just over half the length, and that's a light stick, by many standards. You can break metacarpals with some luck and a solid hit with a surefire flashlight. You can also drop someone like a stone with a .22lr, but a greater margin of error in either case would make me more comfortable, if need arose.

(I did post the kanabo as a tongue-in-cheek effort; I'm not disagreeing with you in principle about light and fast winning the day; your earlier posts articulated this well).

Nematocyst
July 16, 2012, 09:38 PM
For a weighty 15" stick,
I like my Ontario SP-53 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=666488).

Yeah, I know it's got that edge on one side,
and that makes it impractical to carry in town,
but at 20+ oz, front-loaded, it packs a whammy,
so it sits by my bed (18" wood under pillow)
and it's my favorite camp stick.

It also cuts sticks for the fire.

Dirty Bob
July 16, 2012, 11:34 PM
Carl's post was excellent (as usual!).

I'd rather have a heavier stick, but a light stick can be effective in the right hands.

Used for thrusting, or like a rifle/bayonet, even a light stick can have your full body weight behind it. I've worked with stick and heavy bag, and a light rattan stick could move that bag when used properly.

My father was one of the managers of the Mark Hopkins Hotel (on Nob Hill in San Francisco). One day he brought home some pieces of plumbing pipe. It was solid brass! It was some of the original plumbing of the hotel. He used it to make wind chimes for friends of the family. I used a short piece to make the nasal and eyebrows on the helm I still have.

How I wish I could have that pipe! It was the right diameter for flutes and would have made some very unique objects!

All my best,
Dirty Bob

hso
July 17, 2012, 07:41 AM
Carl,

I'm not sure what you mean by "the weight of a good club", but you use it as if to imply that heavy is the same as weight. They're not. I don't agree with Owen's fixed number for a minimum weight for a 12"-28" stick, but I do agree that you can go too light. A rattan escrima stick is as light as I'd expect anyone to use in SD because you loose the momentum to break bones larger than the hand with anything lighter in anything other than a hammer strike. You begin to sacrifice breaking techniques that are available at slightly heavier weights and sacrificing gross impact techniques and limiting yourself to the more complex manipulation techniques is never a good idea if you don't have to.

I like the punyo of FMA stick grip vs. the Chinese grip on a short stick because it gives me a lot of passing, trapping, hammering options so I like a stick just a bit longer than the sticks I've used with my Sifu (and just about convinced him that it is better too). In that case "longer" doesn't mean adding a ft to the length, but those 4 inches makes a big difference in what can be done.

Same with weight. A little more can mean a lot more effectiveness, but a little less can loose a lot as well. You don't have to carry a 28" lead pipe, but a pice of PVC isn't your goal either. Somewhere between those extremes is the ideal for the individual for simple breaking and complex manipulation techniques.

michaelbsc
July 17, 2012, 09:37 AM
Isn't the most important weapon supposed to be situational awareness to avoid the need for the weapon in the first place. The best possible weapon is a good chatter to de-escalate the situation.

I'm certainly not saying that I think a plastic flute is a good substitute for a double stack clip in a gun fight. But you sure aren't going to get a Browning Hi Power on an airplane these days.

Carl Levitian
July 17, 2012, 10:27 AM
Carl,

I'm not sure what you mean by "the weight of a good club", but you use it as if to imply that heavy is the same as weight. They're not. I don't agree with Owen's fixed number for a minimum weight for a 12"-28" stick, but I do agree that you can go too light. A rattan escrima stick is as light as I'd expect anyone to use in SD because you loose the momentum to break bones larger than the hand with anything lighter in anything other than a hammer strike. You begin to sacrifice breaking techniques that are available at slightly heavier weights and sacrificing gross impact techniques and limiting yourself to the more complex manipulation techniques is never a good idea if you don't have to.

I like the punyo of FMA stick grip vs. the Chines grip on a short stick because it gives me a lot of passing, trapping, hammering options so I like a stick just a bit longer than the sticks I've used with my Sifu (and just about convinced him that it is better too). In that case "longer" doesn't mean adding a ft to the length, but those 4 inches makes a big difference in what can be done.

Same with weight. A little more can mean a lot more effectiveness, but a little less can loose a lot as well. You don't have to carry a 28" lead pipe, but a pice of PVC isn't your goal either. Somewhere between those extremes is the ideal for the individual for simple breaking and complex manipulation techniques.
__________________

Totally agree with that. I don't use rattan or bamboo or any other light weight asian stuff. But a 14 inch stick in hickory, hornbeam, ash, locust, is enough to break bones in the meats I've scavenged from the dumpster in back of safeway. I've used short sticks on raw beef and pork ribs, chickens and with some short snap strikes had enough broken bones in the meat to convince me that he impact goes deep enough to do real damage. I've got a couple of short sticks made from left over hornbeam walking stick projects that seem to be nigh on unbreakable.

I do think there is something to the training aspect of rattan that it is used for safety in training. If I'm out on the street, I want good old American hardwood.

Carl.

hso
July 17, 2012, 10:39 AM
Yep, you want to not be there to avoid the self defense situation, get out of there before it gets risky, calm the situation if you've had it get risky (in that order) before you ever get to the point of having to physically defend yourself. It's a given in all our discussions that avoiding a fight is the best way to stay safe.

The airplane self defense idea isn't much of a concern since those situations occur so much more rarely than street encounters. ASP and other collapsible batons are a portability/concealability compromise on length/weight/rigidity on a fixed stick. The flute is a similar compromise in that it is portable and hides in plain sight, but it compromises weight and durability to do it being tubing instead of a solid rod. Everything is a compromise, though. Too obviously a weapon, too heavy, too long, too light, too weak. Like "cheap, quick, good (pick any two)" nothing's 100% perfect.

Owen Sparks
July 17, 2012, 03:38 PM
This debate about light vs. heavy sticks is starting to sound like another familiar argument common to gun forums.

Light sticks are like light caliber bullets. The work fine as long as you are able to place a shot somewhere vital. In fact a buddy killed a nice 8 point buck with a .22 Magnum last year. Long story short, he was setting up to hunt groundhogs off a sandbag rest when a nice big buck wandered up. He placed the crosshairs of his 12 power varmint scope right in the bucks ear and squeezed off a shot. The buck dropped without so much as a twitch. Had he been using a .300 Magnum, a solid hit anywhere to the chest cavity, shoulder or neck would have probably done the job. Bigger more powerful calibers give you a little more leeway in shot placement.

The debate between light and heavy sticks is really no different. Sure, a light stick is adequate for the small delicate bones of the hand and wrist but a heavier stick will also smash the bones in the meaty part of the forearm. This gives you a much broader target area. No doubt a well-placed shot to the throat or eyes even with something as light as a car antenna will take the fight out of anyone. Make the weapon a steel pipe and you can land it ANYWHERE on the head or neck and the results will be the same. Light weight sticks are faster but they require more accurate shot placement. Heavy sticks have lots of momentum and transfer energy deep into the target.

hso
July 17, 2012, 03:43 PM
But a 14 inch stick in hickory, hornbeam, ash, locust, is enough to break bones

Ok

Those materials have the density to provide a useful weight. :D

Owen Sparks
July 17, 2012, 04:27 PM
You probably could get away with carrying a short length of pipe, at least in your vehicle as long as you also carried a few plumbing accessories like T's and elbows, maybe a roll of thread tape or a pipe wrench. It would be pretty hard to prove that you were not on the way to do a little home improvement.

Now that I think about it, is there any law against carrying a big 12" wrench in your back pocket?

hso
July 17, 2012, 04:36 PM
I carry a steel breaker bar with a socket sized for the wheel lugs right beside the driver seat in my vehicle. Measures from elbow to near fingertips. Perfectly reasonable thing to have in the vehicle.

Nematocyst
July 17, 2012, 04:41 PM
I've read in the recent past that some people carry ball peen hammers in their trousers, like on a carpenter's loop on Carhartt's.

hso
July 17, 2012, 06:30 PM
That's going to be pretty difficult to explain.

And make you walk funny.:evil:

Nematocyst
July 17, 2012, 06:49 PM
Laughs.

I'm not going to do it, just noting that others do, apparently with success.

glistam
July 17, 2012, 07:41 PM
I believe that was the Hell's Angels that used to carry the ball peen hammers. Or at least they tried that.

When you're talking legality that's really quite variable from state to state.

hso
July 17, 2012, 08:49 PM
I'd question the "success" of something so obvious. Bikers carried wrenches because they had some plausible deniability. Ball penes don't quite fit that.

Deltaboy
July 18, 2012, 02:07 PM
Claw Hammers work great; we used them to run off squaters and trespassers on construction sites.

Deltaboy
July 18, 2012, 02:10 PM
HSO , They work according to my Uncle he was night Mech for a Ford Dealership in the 1960's and he said he cracked a few heads with it.

Nematocyst
July 18, 2012, 02:32 PM
I think it all boils down to what's plausible for carry by an individual.

If you're a flute player or student, flute.

If you're a carpenter, handyman, apt manager, car mechanic/autobody repair, etc, ball peen is fine.

If you're a pool player, .... etc.

Bikewer
July 18, 2012, 02:50 PM
As I may have pointed out before, all these various dodges to carry "something" to use as a weapon may or may not be effective.... But it boils down to what happens when you use it.
You are introducing a deadly weapon into the equation. If you are justified in using deadly force, you MAY be fine legally. However there is no guarantee of this. That "fight" just became an aggravated assault. The fact that your hammer or pipe or pool cue or whatever isn't technically a weapon doesn't matter once it's actually used as one.
There's also the manner in which you employ your improvised weapon. If you've had some training in various martial arts and you drive off your attacker by well-placed strikes to knee and elbow and such...
That indicated a degree of control and no intent to inflict serious harm.
However, if (as instinct often tells us to do) you engage in head-whacking... Then you face the serious possibility of death, brain damage, disfigurement...
All of which could be the grounds for civil lawsuit as well as criminal prosecution.

Nematocyst
July 18, 2012, 03:43 PM
I would use "head whacking" as an absolute last resort. I train more for hands - especially ones carrying a weapon, which indicate intent to harm me - arms, collar bones, ribs and legs, especially knees and shins.

There's a great quote out of one of Kelly McCann's books about all of this. I'll dig it out and copy it here when I get some time.

JimStC
July 18, 2012, 03:46 PM
Reading one of his books now.
Just got a Cold Steel Koga SD1. Nice little pocket tool.

Jim

hso
July 18, 2012, 03:51 PM
That "fight" just became an aggravated assault.

Yep

However, if (as instinct often tells us to do) you engage in head-whacking... Then you face the serious possibility of death, brain damage, disfigurement...
All of which could be the grounds for civil lawsuit as well as criminal prosecution.

Exactly correct.

Making the decision to carry any weapon, even a tool that can be "improvised" into an effective weapon, brings with it risks and responsibilities. Those risks are of maiming/disabling someone out of ignorance of the use of the tool and of the legal consequences. The responsibility is to know how to use it to minimize your legal risk which means minimizing the permanent injury to an attacker. That means training so that you don't default to the strikes to the head/face.

Owen Sparks
July 19, 2012, 11:56 AM
As far as I know all modern military and police riot training forbids striking the head or neck because it crosses the line of lethal force. This is the one good thing that came out of the riots of the late 1960's. The police no longer 'crack heads' because several people died from it.

Nematocyst
July 22, 2012, 11:36 PM
So, here's a simplified account of what I experienced last night
while working out late night with the following tools:

* warm up : running in place, jumping jacks, light dumbbells, dance
* body weight exercises : push ups, pull ups, squats ...
* sticks ranging from 48" to 16", used against bags hanging from rafters
* some music while working with 16" - 18" sticks, one in each hand

The latter is where it happened.

At a higher physiological state than rest,
a near aerobic state, with the music,
using the sticks first in a horizontal hit fashion (as in drum),
then moving the tips to vertical hits (as in torso)
I realized - as a long time drummer - that
moving these two sticks as fast as a drummer moves them
with tips hitting high, mid and low along with much leg action
makes them nearly impossible to fend off.

Think of Manu Katche drumming for Peter Gabriel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Khs5zGrRo).
_______

I've more to say about this, but after sleep and more practice.
_______

PS: If you want to see that first track with Manu, Peter and Paula, it's here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRLjpXLEp1A).

That's Peter's Secret World Tour, stop in Milan.

Should be heard with volume up.

JShirley
July 23, 2012, 12:34 AM
Owen,

That's mostly correct. The body is divided into three zones, from preferred striking areas (fleshy part of the thigh, back of the upper arm) to ones likely to cause serious injury (bones and joints) to areas that should only be struck if lethal force is warranted (head, spine).

Red areas should usually be avoided, but would be justifiable if (for instance) a baton was being used against an unarmed attacker, who suddenly produced a knife. In that case, a head strike would be lethal force, but quicker and safer than trying to draw a sidearm when the aggressor is 3 feet away with a blade in his hand.

To anyone who thinks the hand or arm should be the target in that case, the head is larger and slower.

John

Nematocyst
August 1, 2012, 08:41 PM
Quick update with a promise for more in a few days.

In post 341, just above, I described an epiphany
that I had about short sticks as a percussionist.

Here are a few more details.

I've played drums for around 15 years.
Mostly hand drums - congas, bongos, etc -
but about five years ago, tried my hand at a standard trap set
(like used in rock and roll: kick drum, snare, toms, symbols, etc
all hit with sticks, except the kick of course, which is more like muay thai).

I still prefer hand drums, including electronic,
but when I'm camping, I usually always find a hollow log
and use my 16" or 18" stick or both to make rhythms on it.

Last night, when using both 16 and 18 to practice,
I realized with the speed of a light coming on that I prefer the 16.
For my anatomy, it's got far more speed and wrist snap potential than the 18,
even though the 18 obviously has that extra 2" for reaching out to touch someone.

So, in a snap decision, I cut off the 18" to a 16".

Well, I gotta tell you, it's changed my whole approach to short sticks.

First, I find that I can use these dual sticks like drum sticks,
the average length of which is 16" (15 - 17).

Second, today, I carried both in my pack.
A pair of sticks is easier to explain than a single: they're drum sticks.

Third, I remembered the name of
a type of Japanese stick drumming
- Taiko (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7HL5wYqAbU) - and began to research it.
I've decided now to study Taiko.

Fourth, I started researching Taiko sticks, called Bachi (https://www.taikos.com/drum-shop/taiko-bachi/bachi/).

The most common size? 1" x 16".

Hmm. I may be onto something here.

I'd be really surprised if I couldn't find a pair in really hard wood.

Carl Levitian
August 1, 2012, 09:42 PM
Karen and I went to a performance of those Japanese drummers down at the Kennedy Center a few years back. They were here on tour, and watching them I had the same thought as when I watch the chef at that Japanese steak house we go to now and then; I'd hate to have one of them mad at me. :D

Carl.

Nematocyst
August 1, 2012, 09:56 PM
^ Hahaha... Right?! :D

I've had a similar thought to that, also:
what if I replaced one stick with a blade? :scrutiny:

Owen Sparks
August 1, 2012, 10:26 PM
Remember Bun E. Carlos the drummer for Cheap Trick? He used some HUGE drum sticks.

JimStC
August 2, 2012, 04:40 AM
http://www.bukiyuushuu.com/homepage.html
Nem, not drum sticks, but some real nice hickory Escrima sticks. I am no drummer but my 18" sticks seem like drum sticks.

Jim

glistam
August 2, 2012, 09:13 AM
Speaking of short sticks and things Japanese (how's that for a segue), another slightly neglected item is the bokken. Most people think of the 1 meter long daitō bokken that imitates the katana, and those with a little more martial arts experience might be aware of tantō bokken. Often overlooked is the shotō bokken, a 55 cm long imitation of a wakizashi, or short sword.

I'm amused by how a bokken is perceived by Westerners as a "dummy practice sword," little more than a stick a child would play with pretending to be a samurai. Nobody seems aware that Musashi himself killed several people in his career with them. People of lesser skill wielding real, sharp katana. I find it hilarious that many locations I go that actually are wary of martial arts weapons have all sorts of signs about no nunchuku, no chains, no knives and no steel weapons even if blunt, but they take one look at my shotō bokken and say "oh it's just one of those little wooden practice swords. Go ahead." The smaller size seems to be perceived as either a child's toy or just a "symbolic" item meant to hold in the hand during kata. Much like the pool cue story, there's plenty of dojos around places I go as well as parks were people do solo forms like Tai Chi Jian, so it's pretty plausible excuse that I was just on my way to/from practice.

Nematocyst
August 2, 2012, 10:11 AM
Jim, I'm reluctant to cut off kali sticks, but they're just too long the style I wish to study. They definitely belong in this discussion, though.

Fascinating story, Glistam, about Bokkens. They too belong as part of this discussion, as does bokken technique.

For me, though, my epiphany (of sorts) is that Taiko bachi are not only potentially useful tools for me for SD - because they already match one of my favorite lengths (16") - but they are very plausible for me to carry since I'm a percussionist. (That's relevant to discussions we've had in this thread (and others) about plausible stick or stick-like tools that can be used as weapons: pool cues, flutes, etc.) I've been researching Taiko, also, and really am interested in studying it. As luck would have it, while discussing this with a friend, I learned that another friend (that I know less well) is a long-time student of Taiko.

And, while I'm certainly not proposing that Taiko become the next great martial art form, I do know from my own percussion experience that practice can contribute significantly to stamina, comfort with the sticks, accuracy of strikes, etc.

And as I watch those Taiko drummers in the video I posted, I think about the power, swiftness and agility of their strikes, and think that couldn't be a bad thing during a SD encounter.

JimStC
August 2, 2012, 10:19 AM
Nem,
The website I gave you custom makes sticks at whatever length you order. Takes two weeks and come with very nice handles. $45 plus shipping.

Jim

Nematocyst
August 2, 2012, 10:24 AM
Oh! Thanks, Jim. I didn't pay close enough attention. I'll check it out again.

sidheshooter
August 2, 2012, 05:53 PM
I'm amused by how a bokken is perceived by Westerners as a "dummy practice sword," little more than a stick a child would play with pretending to be a samurai. Nobody seems aware that Musashi himself killed several people in his career with them.

This is very true. The bokken was *the* favorite weapon of the karate-ka that I hung around with for decades; we all had them. Nothing not to like about a handled, medium length sturdy stick with strategic bevels, points and wedges designed to channel force. One leans in the corner on my side of the bed to this day; if I can't get to the .357, this thing will still ruin the day of anyone within a yard or two.

I still like traditional Bo kata on a nice day; nobody seems any more disturbed by a guy in a gi with an octagonal hardwood rokushaku bo than they would be by a guy in cleats and a softball uniform carrying a bat, despite the fact that both are serious weapons.

http://www.kongoshindojo.com/store/images/detailed/Rokushaku_Bo_002_large.jpg

Steel Talon
August 3, 2012, 01:36 PM
Third, I remembered the name of
a type of Japanese stick drumming
- Taiko - and began to research it.
I've decided now to study Taiko.

Ondekoza "Demon Drummers"

Nematocyst
August 3, 2012, 02:13 PM
Ondekoza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ondekoza). Fascinating.

Also found this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnq4hHv61DY&feature=related) about their intense training which sounds more like boot camp. I'll watch it later.

To become a Kodo drummer, students are put through two years of hell. But these apprentices will endure anything to make the grade. In the Kodo drumming camp, students practice for around 20 hours a day. Cigarettes, alcohol, and TV are banned, there are no holidays or weekends off and their bodies are pushed to extremes. The day starts with a 15 km run up a mountain and ends when the students are too exhausted to continue. "I'm amazed at how far I can go," states one.


Interesting to see the musical component of what appears to overlap with warriors and martial arts.

I'm curious about whether the students study any martial arts along with all this.

If you enjoyed reading about "Short sticks" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!