Dangers in shooting 38s out of a 357??


PDA






4kbeard
February 27, 2012, 02:56 PM
I read somewhere in some article that I can't recall that constantly shooting 38s out of a 357 can or will cause them to become less accurate. Did I read (or remember) wrong? Is this so? Say it aint so, as that is the round that I can afford to shoot more oft than not.

If you enjoyed reading about "Dangers in shooting 38s out of a 357??" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Bush Pilot
February 27, 2012, 03:04 PM
You'll be fine, just run a bore brush through the holes in the cylinder once in a while.

ADKWOODSMAN
February 27, 2012, 03:05 PM
Ditto brush_pilot.

Sam1911
February 27, 2012, 03:08 PM
NO. That's an incorrect assertion. Many, many tens of millions of .38 Spc. rounds have gone down the barrels of millions of .357 Mag. revolvers over the years without doing a lick of harm. (Same goes for .44 Spc. and .44 Mag.)

If you shoot a lot of .38 Spc. ammo, you should probably clean the carbon out of the chambers well before shooting any .357 Mags. A little will build up in the gap between the end of the .38 Spc. case and the end of the .357 Mag length chamber and can cause elevated pressures and/or hard extraction.

In fact, I've read that ".38s for practice, .357s for business" was the policy of S&W when they built their .357 Mag K-frames.

Dnaltrop
February 27, 2012, 03:13 PM
Same thing for shooting .45 colt in a .454, works fine. Just have to pay attention to your cleaning.

Shoot the longer cartridges first before the short ones and don't step back to the long ones without brushing the cylinder out.

The best advice if you're concerned about the carbon buildup, is to Reload, use the longer cases and Download those .357's to standard .38/.38 +P

Ford Prefect
February 27, 2012, 04:50 PM
Perhaps you're mis-remebering.

.38's tend not to be as accurate out of a .357 because of the gap between the bullet and the barrel/chamber. This "jump" effects accuracy. Every time. It can get worse over time due to lead fouling/buildup. No danger that I know of, with normal cleaning.

I have shot some older long barreled .38's and they are sweet guns. Easy to shoot, accurate and smoothness close to a .22lr. I love dedicated .38's and love full bore .357's out of a GP100, but you don't need two guns. One will do both fine.

bergmen
February 27, 2012, 07:07 PM
Same thing for shooting .45 colt in a .454, works fine. Just have to pay attention to your cleaning.


Not according to the manual for my Model 83:

The use of .45 Long Colt ammunition in 454 Casull chambers is NOT recommended. An optional .45 Long Colt cylinder is available for your Freedom ArmsŪ revolver chambered in 454 Casull.

Dan

4kbeard
February 28, 2012, 02:16 AM
Thanks guys. I am, more often than not, on the ball with my cleaning.
I am not set up to make my own reloads yet, but will keep in mind the trick of down grading full .357 casings into 38+Ps when I do. At least for range time.

Dnaltrop
February 28, 2012, 06:00 AM
Interesting, but I think that's a flawed argument Bergmen.

A FA is a finely tuned high end revolver. with incredible tolerances. (I've been drooling over them for years) I think the reason they don't want you shooting .45 Colt, is that they don't want you scarring up all their hard work for being a cheapskate on the brass with a $2000 or so pistol.

I don't like shooting .38's in a .357 either, and the solution is the same for both... Use the longer case and download the pressure.

Standard 454's of every other brand can chamber both .45 Colt and Casull, .460's chamber all 3. I've not heard of a .454 that absolutely cannot use .45.

"Cannot" is not the same as "for the love of Mike, PLEASE just buy another Cylinder"

http://www.chuckhawks.com/460_SW_Mag.htm

The new cartridge is a lengthened version of the .454 Casull, itself a lengthened version of the .45 Long Colt. So both of those cartridges can be fired in a revolver chambered for the .460 Magnum.

http://www.reloadammo.com/454casull.htm

The .454 came out in the late 50's and was the big, bad boy in town, till the advent of the .500 S&W mag and now, the .460S&W magnum. This caliber, designed by Dick Casull, is great for us who have lots of .45 Colt ammo (I reload for cowboy shooting, but want a gun that can handle everything up to this magnum with very heavy lead bullets moving out at speeds in the 1300-2000 fps range.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Colt (actually only checked this as an afterthought)

The .45 Colt became the basis for the much more powerful .454 Casull cartridge, with the .454 Casull having a slightly longer and stronger case. Any .454 Casull revolver will chamber and fire .45 Colt, but not the inverse due to the Casull's longer case. The .460 S&W Magnum is a longer version of the .454 Casull and the .45 Colt. Likewise, .460 Magnum revolvers can chamber and fire the two lesser cartridges, but again, not the reverse


But I agree with you otherwise, use the proper length brass for the proper caliber gun, except where unavoidable.

oldfool
February 28, 2012, 07:51 AM
".38's tend not to be as accurate out of a .357 because of the gap between the bullet and the barrel/chamber."

inclined to respectfully disagree, friend
38 target wadcutters are generally regarded as the "best" round for consistent accuracy out of 38 sp guns, and there is obviously more bullet jump with target wadcutters vs. other bullet styles

I see no differences in group sizes out of my 38/357s for 38 vs 357 (just minor difference in POI vs POA, which is affected by multiple variables, of course). Pretty sure I am not the only one who would say that.
Methinks throats and alignment far outweigh bullet jump on all that.

Sam1911
February 28, 2012, 07:57 AM
But I agree with you otherwise, use the proper length brass for the proper caliber gun, except where unavoidable.


If you are playing any kind of speed game (IDPA, USPSA, Steel Challenge, etc.) where reloads will be a factor, using shorter brass consistently provides smoother, more positive reloads than using full-length brass, which tends to get hung between the stocks and star, or not quite clear, and otherwise hang up the works at the worst possible time.

Short brass gets popped clear and just flies away -- more or less every time. HUGE benefit.

kludge
February 28, 2012, 09:57 AM
Not according to the manual for my Model 83:

The use of .45 Long Colt ammunition in 454 Casull chambers is NOT recommended. An optional .45 Long Colt cylinder is available for your Freedom ArmsŪ revolver chambered in 454 Casull.

Dan

The .45 Colt loads that people tend to shoot out of FA revolvers are quite different than standard .45 Colt loads, even even Ruger Only loads... 5-shot revolver .45 colt loads approach .454 Casull loads and pressures... packing the case full of H110.

In a FA gun, you "might" end up with some flame cutting in the extra 0.1" of chamber... after a while this can lead to hard extraction for .454 cases as the brass fills the area of the cut.

And even with standard .45 Colt loads, if you don't get all the crud out, you can get stuck cases, or worse - and overpressure situation, since FA revolvers' chambers are not as generous as most in their dimensions.

1911Tuner
February 28, 2012, 12:02 PM
At the risk of bringing on a storm of controversy, I'll relate a little story.

Circa mid-1980s, if memory serves me. The gun was probably 25 years old.

An older gentleman who owned a Model 27 and dearly loved to shoot but couldn't tolerate much .357 ammunition due to arthritis fired only .38 Special in it. This went on for years, and...because he reloaded for his only handgun...he shot it a lot.

When he died, his son came into possession of the revolver, and one day he naturally decided to limber it up. The call came, and the visit followed shortly after. Six cases firmly frozen in the chambers. After driving them out, I noticed that they all had narrow expanded rings about a 10th inch from the mouths. Close examination revealed mating rings in the chambers, about a 10th inch behind the shoulders. Really close examination revealed indication of flame cutting and erosion...which makes sense. If the frame will flame cut over the B/C gap...why wouldn't it cut the chambers? It did.

Smith & Wesson replaced the cylinder and returned the gun. I haven't fired .38 Special in a .357 chamber from that day to this. I download .357 cases.

Dr_B
February 28, 2012, 12:54 PM
Responding to the OP, .357 and .38 special cartridges use the same sized bullet, so I don't see any issue with barrel wear. I would be more concerned about the bullet material causing build-up rather than the type of cartridge causing a problem.

Flame cutting from lots of .38's. Yes, I can envision that happening over enough time and use. Personally, I don't think I should worry much about it. I suspect I will wear out before my revolver does.

I'm considering using my GP100 in the next steel match in my area. Thinking about .38 specials because magnum loads are not allowed in the match, and because they will be easier to control and eject in a hurry.

rcmodel
February 28, 2012, 01:17 PM
Has anyone ever seen an old K-38 with a gazillion rounds through it suffer from flame cut chamber throats??

I sure haven't, and I seen a lot of old K-38 match guns with a gazillion rounds through them.

I just have a hard time believing you could shoot enough .38's in a .357 in a lifetime to do that.

I could see corrosion under the hard carbon rings from never cleaning them out etching into the chambers though.

rc

45_auto
February 28, 2012, 01:37 PM
If the frame will flame cut over the B/C gap...why wouldn't it cut the chambers?

Probably because when the bullet passes the flash gap the pressure almost instantly drops from chamber pressure to atmospheric (from somewhere around 10,000 to 40,000 PSI to 14 PSI atmospheric) and the hot gases expand violently at that point, impinging on the top strap and eventually eroding it. You don't have the same situation inside the chamber.

None of my handguns or rifles have flame cutting in the chamber in front of the cartridge case. I've been shooting some of them for over 40 years, no telling how many thousands of rounds. Never seen any flame cutting on any of the full-auto class 3 stuff with MANY thousands of rounds through them either. Plenty of worn out barrels though! ;)

rcmodel
February 28, 2012, 01:53 PM
IMO: Flame cutting on top straps is actually bead-blast cutting from powder granules being blasted out of the B/C gap at very high velocity.
Just like a waterjet cutting motorcycle parts on American Chopper!

There is not enough flame duration at the flash from the gap to heat steel hot enough fast enough to burn it away like a cutting torch.

It doesn't happen in the chamber throats because the powder granules are going through them, not 90 degrees against them with a running start.

rc

Guillermo
February 28, 2012, 01:57 PM
RC's explanation is perfectly logical.

My guess is that something else was going on in that Model 27.

Corrosive powder perhaps?

svtruth
February 28, 2012, 02:04 PM
I'm with 1911 Tuner. The story is that a lot of .45s result in flame cutting a shallow groove at the mouth of the cartridge. when a .454 is fired the brass fireforms into thje annular ring, resulting in difficult extraction. And unless you are very recoil resistant, you will fire many more .45s than .454s.
I bought a levergun in .45 as a kid brother to my .454 for that very reason, now I'll have to get a Blackhawk to keep it company.

USSR
February 28, 2012, 02:15 PM
I tend to agree with rcmodels assessment; corrosion underneath the built up carbon. Both the .38 Spl and .45 Colt are not normally high pressure loads that are likely to cause excessive steel erosion.

Don

Hamilton Felix
February 28, 2012, 02:27 PM
I find 1911Tuner's story enlightening. As he said, that M27 was fired a LOT with .38 Specials. And we don't know the original owner's cleaning habits.

I don't worry too much about firing a modest quantity of .38 ammo and being thorough with my cleaning. I'd especially avoid the "cheap reloader" trick of loading .357 loads in .38 brass because it's cheap and available. At those pressures, chamber erosion might become a bit more of an issue.

BTW, regarding bullet jump and accuracy: Some of us will have read recently published tests of Smith & Wesson's "Judge copy," the Governor, which will fire .410 shotshells, .45 Colt and .45 ACP. Interestingly, the .45 ACP showed better accuracy. I think firing .45 Auto from chambers designed to handle .410 shotshells must be one heck of a bullet jump.

rcmodel
February 28, 2012, 03:05 PM
Somebodys got so splaning to do.

Splane to me if gas cutting can cut a hard steel chamber?
Then how come it didn't flame cut much softer & lower melting point brass cases that have been reloaded so many times you can't read the headstamp on them any more?
Not even a little bit.

rc

Dnaltrop
February 28, 2012, 04:43 PM
I forgot about that part Sam, thanks for the reminder.

Use proper length brass when unavoidable, OR when the situation dictates otherwise. ;)

1911Tuner
February 28, 2012, 05:42 PM
Has anyone ever seen an old K-38 with a gazillion rounds through it suffer from flame cut chamber throats??

No, but I've seen'em worn to the point that a bullet falls through without touching the sides. Gauge a new chamber throat, and then gauge it again after 10,000 rounds.

The story is that a lot of .45s result in flame cutting a shallow groove at the mouth of the cartridge.

I had a GI Colt barrel cut clear through just ahead of the chamber shoulder about 8 years ago. There I was...bangin' away...when all of a sudden, I watched the front 2/3rds of the barrel arc toward the steel plate I was bangin' on. Hit it, too. The bullet nose was peekin' out of the muzzle. The kicker was that the slide chambered another round into the stubby remnant of the barrel and went to full battery. If I'd pulled the trigger, it would have fired.

Estimated count on the barrel was in the neighborhood of 15,000 rounds.

Don't tell me that powder gases won't cut a chamber. I know they will.

1911Tuner
February 28, 2012, 05:52 PM
It doesn't happen in the chamber throats because the powder granules are going through them, not 90 degrees against them with a running start.

You've never seen throat erosion in a rifle or pistol barrel? Forcing cone erosion in a revolver barrel?

Frank V
February 28, 2012, 05:54 PM
4KBeard
Welcome to the forum!!
I regularly shoot .38s through a .357 without any worries. I run a cleaning brush through the cambers as several have said, & don't worry about it. It won't hurt!
Frank

rcmodel
February 28, 2012, 08:28 PM
You've never seen throat erosion in a rifle or pistol barrel? Forcing cone erosion in a revolver barrel?Sure I have seen it in forcing cones and barrels. Especially ones running 40,000 PSI with ball powder and called Magnuns
Not much in .38 Special low pressure loads the OP ask about

Again, I think the forcing cone gets bead blasted away by heavy charge ball powder granules while escaping the B/C gap, and trying to straighten up and fly right again to go down the barrel in a slightly different direction.

Not cut away by the fires of hell coming out of the cylinder throats.
But espacially the fires of hell in a .38 Special load the OP ask about

rc

Jim K
February 28, 2012, 08:39 PM
Well, flame cutting (throat erosion) is more common in rifles than handguns due to the larger charge and the hotter and longer burning powder, but here is what happens in a rifle, and a lot is applicable to a handgun as well.

As pressure builds, the first thing that happens is that the thin front of the case begins to expand. The bullet, kept motionless for an instant by its own inertia, just sits there, while the burning gas and partially burned powder go around it. Because of the constriction in the small gap, the gas speeds up and the combination of gas and solids moving at high speed eat at the sides of the barrel throat. Eventually, the bullet moves and plugs the gap, stopping that erosive force. But each time the gun is fired, the erosion moves an infinitesmal distance forward until eventually the start of the rifling is well away from the bullet of an unfired round. So the bullet starts moving, but instead of finding rifling, it finds an open space which allows it to skew and try to move sideways, doing damage that will cause the bullet to be inaccurate when it exits the barrel.

The same basic thing can happen in an auto pistol, though the damage takes a lot longer to happen, and in a revolver, mostly in the forcing cone.

As to the barrel of a 1911 type pistol separating due to gas cutting, I doubt that was the cause. It seems much more likely that the barrel was defective to begin with. At one time, someone was making 1911 barrels by casting the back end, then reaming out the stub and inserting a piece of turned down SMG barrel. That occurrence sounds like the shooter encountered one of those barrels.

Jim

CajunBass
February 28, 2012, 08:50 PM
I'm not smart enough to know if you can wear out a 357 shooting 38's in it or not, but I'd like to have the time and the money to try to do it.

I'd brag about it if I did.

rcmodel
February 28, 2012, 08:56 PM
Still working to do it on a 6" Model 19 since 1968.

No luck yet!

Looks like at 68 in April, I won't live long enough to see any signs of chamber erosion in it from shooting .38 Spl in my lifetime.

rc

bergmen
February 28, 2012, 09:27 PM
Interesting, but I think that's a flawed argument Bergmen.


Just citing the manual (which I follow, by the way). Freedom Arms knows exactly what they are doing, have been the authority on .454 Casull single actions for decades.

The current owner expanded on the reasons for this (cannot find the link to save me) and IIRC there was measurable erosion in cylinders that fired hot .45 Colt loads and this caused the subsequent firing of .454 Casull cartridges to stick in the cylinder (much like 1911Tuner indicated with the .357).

Dan

Encoreman
February 28, 2012, 09:31 PM
I'm with ya CajunBass, I would be happy to say "yep I done it boys wore that dang 65 out but it cost me $10k worth of ammo"!!! time to get another one.

rcmodel
February 28, 2012, 09:34 PM
But, the OP's question was about firing standard pressure .38 Spl in a .357.

It had nothing to do with high-pressure +P+ .45 Colt in an even higher pressure Freedon Arms .454 Casull.

rc

PRM
February 28, 2012, 09:50 PM
I'm not smart enough to know if you can wear out a 357 shooting 38's in it or not, but I'd like to have the time and the money to try to do it.

I'd brag about it if I did. - CajunBass

+1 on that...

I've carried and shot .38s out of my S&W Model 60-9 (.357) since 1997. No ~ I don't have a round count. Its certainly not in the tens of thousands, but has seen some regular use. So far it looks pristine. At this rate it will certainly out last me.

Cornerpost
February 28, 2012, 10:19 PM
This is an interesting discussion. It brings to mind an article I read several years ago. It was about the old gallery guns used at fairs and carnivals, 1906 Winchester's I believe. Anyhow, long story short, the use of tons of .22 shorts ruined the chambers to where they could only shoot .22 shorts.

I'm sure those guns were severely neglected. Keep them clean, you'll be fine! Otherwise face the music. It can happen.

MrDig
February 28, 2012, 11:46 PM
I don't do it for the very reasons already cited.
I don't want the 38's cutting into the chambers. I shoot 357 in my Marlin and my Ruger simply because I want to keep shooting them for a long time.

fiftybmg
February 28, 2012, 11:54 PM
Makes no difference to the gun at all. You just need a bit of extra time to clean out the cylinder fouling at the end of the cylinders.

skidder
February 28, 2012, 11:54 PM
A solution to the debate is a Ruger 38 :D. The GP 100 and Six Series 38s are identical to the 357s except for the cylinder bore length . You can load your 38s to 357 specs without the worry, just make sure you mark them Ruger only ;). With these guns you don't have to worry about sticky 357 brass after shooting a ton of 38s. I was bummed at first when the only Service Six at the gun show was a 38, until I realized its potential :).

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc456/exlogger/Service%20Six/service2.jpg

oldfool
February 29, 2012, 08:06 AM
real good exchange of perspectives here from some of the most knowledgeable shooters on the internet (not me, but several here are)

but I vote with rcmodel

I ain't reached a gazillion rounds yet (but half a gazillion maybe), and pretty certain mine will out wear me. Do know for a fact mine will last long enough to burn up enough ammo count for 10X the cost of the gun, and then a lot more, and still throw both off-the shelf 357 and 38 sp, just as well and accurately. YMMV.

just keep 'em clean

PS
them old k-frames are a lot tougher than some people give 'em credit for
(just like them old Rugers) ;)

303tom
February 29, 2012, 09:26 AM
I read somewhere in some article that I can't recall that constantly shooting 38s out of a 357 can or will cause them to become less accurate. Did I read (or remember) wrong? Is this so? Say it aint so, as that is the round that I can afford to shoot more oft than not.
I don`t know how it could...........The only difference between the .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 Special & the .357 Magnum is case length.

Guillermo
February 29, 2012, 09:42 AM
Everything that RC has said is either
A- spot on or
B- follows logically those things which we know.

Fishslayer
March 1, 2012, 01:41 PM
Well.... I dunno. I load my light target loads in .357 cases but have a stash of shorties just in case.

As for my bottom feeders, I think what I need to do is go buy a few more in .45ACP so I'm not putting a gazillion rounds through just one or two. Ya just can't be too careful. When 1911tuner speaks, I listen. :D


You can load your 38s to 357 specs without the worry, just make sure you mark them Ruger only

The potential for disaster is strong here... There's a reason they made the Magnum case longer.

Hamilton Felix
March 1, 2012, 04:39 PM
I had a GI Colt barrel cut clear through just ahead of the chamber shoulder about 8 years ago. There I was...bangin' away...when all of a sudden, I watched the front 2/3rds of the barrel arc toward the steel plate I was bangin' on. Hit it, too. The bullet nose was peekin' out of the muzzle. The kicker was that the slide chambered another round into the stubby remnant of the barrel and went to full battery. If I'd pulled the trigger, it would have fired.

Estimated count on the barrel was in the neighborhood of 15,000 rounds.


1911Tuner, I have had a barrel come apart, too, with most of the barrel landing 37 yards downrange. Glad it was the last shot in the rapid fire string and I didn't fire another. But it was a two piece barrel. Remember Fed Ord? Cheap parts??? I had one of their "hammer forged" barrels, along with their cheezy "NM" collet type bushing (rough, cheap blued collet style bushing, stamped "NM"). Bushing broke a finger and tied up the gun. Got a solid bushing. Barrel was, in my guesstimation, some sort of surplus tube they got cheap - maybe old de-milled grease gun barrels or something - and then mated to a chamber (probably cheap 1911 chambers from de-milled 1911 barrels) by brazing.

This event led to a third barrel in my old AMT Hardballer. BTW, the first barrel was also two piece, but put together differently. You could see the seam at the chamber mouth. I retired that one when the lugs holding the link started to crack.

I would not feel bad about a Ruger Service Six or Security Six .38 Special loaded to .357 specifications. Those are the only revolvers I know of where the .38 version and the .357 version are identical except for chamber length. And since cartridge maximum overall length is the same for .38 and .357, the only difference a handloader might face is which bullet groove he crimps in.

dwatts5250
March 2, 2012, 01:13 PM
@ 4kbeard : I heard you dont own a cleaning kit, that you've been using the wifes toothbrush when she's not looking.

Dnaltrop
March 2, 2012, 06:01 PM
It is Indeed wise to follow the manual Bergmen. :)

It is/was Mr Casull's company in the first place...

When I finally have the good fortune to collect an Octagonal Barreled one, I'll respect his wishes and will be using the longer brass myself, regardless of load.

So very jealous ;) So many guns to collect...

TGReaper
March 3, 2012, 12:30 PM
My Python is 45 years old,and has shot many thousands of .38s. Because it gets cleaned regular I still can not detect a chamber ring where the .38 cases end.I don't expect I will shoot another 45 years worth of .38s but the old Colt would.
TGR

rcmodel
March 3, 2012, 12:39 PM
1906 Winchester's I believe. Anyhow, long story short, the use of tons of .22 shorts ruined the chambers to where they could only shoot .22 shortsCorrosive ammo they used back then, infrequent cleaning, and storage in a carnival truck will do that.

Flame cutting the chamber with modern .22 Shorts won't.

rc

Guillermo
March 4, 2012, 11:58 AM
When 1911tuner speaks, I listen

He is worthy of respect

But fallible

RC is also a smart guy, and on this one, he is right

oldfool
March 4, 2012, 12:14 PM
worthy of respect and then some

Me, I always derive extra enjoyment (and generally always learn something) whenever multiple members of the Curmudgeon Club (aka as "extremely well experienced gun hands & gunsmiths, the best of the best, earned the old fashioned way") post together on any one thread

That includes, though not exclusively so on this board, 1911Tuner, Jim Keenan, Old Fuff, rcmodel, and a host of others. Even the best can disagree with one another, it's permitted.
(you could ask Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton about that; IIRC, they did not always agree)
Me, although a self confessed curmudgeon, not a member, just a wannabe, but gimme another 40 years, I am workin' on it !

awgrizzly
March 5, 2012, 01:46 AM
Somebodys got so splaning to do.

Splane to me if gas cutting can cut a hard steel chamber?
Then how come it didn't flame cut much softer & lower melting point brass cases that have been reloaded so many times you can't read the headstamp on them any more?
Not even a little bit.

rc
HEHE

Shoot a gun long enough and something will wear out.

My Ruger Redhawk specifies .454 Casull & .45 Colt on the frame and cylinder. That's all you need to know. Shooting an airsoft will free you of the embarrassment of gas cutting. =o) Some gun companies are just anal... like Colt SP1s with weird pins, blocks and stuff, S&Ws with their cute little flags, and Ruger engraving instructions to read the damned manual.

hariph creek
March 5, 2012, 02:51 PM
I lean a little more towards rsmodel's summation on this.
I load .38 level loads in .357 cases. I don't worry, too much, about corrosion, I clean my guns. I only use .357 cases because I'm a bit obsessive. I HATE scrubbing out ''ring around the chamber!''

If you enjoyed reading about "Dangers in shooting 38s out of a 357??" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!