eibar 455/spanish webley


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murdoc rose
February 27, 2012, 04:34 PM
Ran across one in the lgs but wanted to do a bit more research first. Its the m1914 as the grips display and has a uncut cylinder id say 60-70%. So whats a rough value on one of these I'm not having much luck finding it in any book or online.

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Ron James
February 28, 2012, 12:28 AM
What other markings are on it.

murdoc rose
February 28, 2012, 01:27 PM
I believe its a Trocaola if your looking for a factory, I do not remember seeing if it had the broad arrow mark or not think I'll run down and look at it later if I get a chance.

Anything else I should be looking for ron?

Ron James
February 28, 2012, 03:53 PM
British markings is what I was interested in, as you probably know the British did contract for Spanish guns in WW I

murdoc rose
February 28, 2012, 06:50 PM
oh yes its covered in British proofs its a london gun with the arm/sword over np for nitro parabellum pistols. I believe there suppose to have a arrow proof if they where issued (correct me if im wrong) and it does not appear to have this.


I guess I should have been a little more descriptive in my first post it is a gun made in Spain and shipped to London sometime around the first world war. If I had to guess it was used as a guard or mp gun until sold off as surplus. The sticker price is 850 and obviously overpriced I talked to them for a while and was told best they could do was 700 after I offered 400 for it. I stop by the place about once a week and more than likely will get a better number as it sits there. I did manage to find a little info on price and it seems to be 3-5. It does have the advantage of coming with a holster but not one with any connection to the war.

Ron James
February 28, 2012, 09:32 PM
All non English made guns sold in England will be covered in Proof marks regardless of caliber or size ( The English loved their stamps ). The Spanish made guns in the Old Pattern No 1 MK 1 by Garate and the No2 MK one by Trocaola should have the Broad Arrow stamp ( TTBOMK ) if they were used by United Kingdom. 800 seems high to me, perhaps some one else has some input. If it is a WWI contract gun, they are scarce, in fact I've never seen one other than in pictures.

Jim K
February 28, 2012, 10:37 PM
The Spanish revolver used by the British was made by Garate y Anitua, and was a copy, not of the Webley, but of the S&W .44 Double Action First Model, which the Spanish company had been copying for a number of years. The British called it the Pistol, Revolver, Old Pattern, No. 1 Mk. 1.

The only one I have seen did have the Broad Arrow as well as the regular commercial proofs applied when it was sold out of government storage. It seemed to me to be a well made revolver and yes, I should have bought it!

Jim

murdoc rose
February 29, 2012, 09:34 AM
jims right it really has little to nothing to do with webleys besides the caliber and is at heart a modified smith. I believe garate, trocaola, as well as orbea made a couple different models in 455 for the brits as well as some 8mms for the french. Its a neat piece for various reasons and am slightly disappointed I couldn't come to a deal with it.

Jim K
February 29, 2012, 02:01 PM
Maybe I am looking in the wrong places, but I don't find that any company but Garate made revolvers for the British in .455. Orbea made revolvers for Italy in their 10.6mm and TAC made an S&W copy for Romania in .44, but AFAIK, only Garate made a .455.

Reading Gangarosa's book, I wonder about the meaning of one sentence on Page 42, where he says TAC sold Romania their Model 1914 "similar to the .455 caliber revolver being made concurrently for the British." Note that it doesn't actuall say "made by TAC" so the reference could be to the revolvers being made by Garate.

Thoughts?

Jim

murdoc rose
February 29, 2012, 05:36 PM
The one I saw at the lgs the other day clearly said trocaola on the barrel. If I'm not mistaken I ran across a few orbeas in 455 in my research online the other day. As to exactly what they where I'm not sure. As for the french, Italian, and Romanian guns there seems to be even less info on them.

Dr.Rob
February 29, 2012, 08:26 PM
Shotgun News swears that Eibar 455's were common in the early days of WW1 due to shortages of revolvers of all kinds. But I agree with Jim what I've seen was a copy of a S&W, not a Webly.

Jim K
March 2, 2012, 01:18 AM
All I know is that the one Spanish .455 with the Broad Arrow that I saw and handled was a Garate, and a British reference to the "Old Pattern" says it was made by Garate. Of course that does not mean others (TAC, Orbea, or some other company) didn't make them also.

I have found the Shotgun News stories interesting, but not always accurate.

Jim

murdoc rose
March 2, 2012, 01:23 AM
I wish there was a bit more solid info out there on them but I guess there is not that much collector interest or maybe there just isn't a need for it. Thanks for the post jim and rob. If I run across anything very concrete about them I'll post it.

Clermont
March 2, 2012, 08:10 AM
oh yes its covered in British proofs its a london gun with the arm/sword over np for nitro parabellum pistols.

The raised arm holding a scimitar over the letters NP indicate the pistol was proofed at the London Proof House. In addition to the letters NP, which indicate Nitro Proof, are the words NITRO PROOF included with the other proof marks? It is almost impossible to date London Proof House marks except when there is a change in the marks. Beginning in early 1954, the words NITRO PROOF, and the words NOT ENGLISH MAKE, were eliminated, so if the pistol has the words NITRO PROOF, it was proofed prior to 1954, if not, it was proofed in 1954 or later.

Ron James
March 2, 2012, 06:36 PM
:)Garate y Compania and Trocapaa Aranzabal y Compania, both contracted for the British and both in .455 Webley caliber.:)

murdoc rose
March 2, 2012, 08:02 PM
clermont these guns would have been produced during ww1 so dating them exactly is hard but you have a fairly small window to shoot at.

Ron James
March 2, 2012, 08:12 PM
Dates of WW 1, 28 July 1914 until 11 November 1918, They had to to be made in that 4 year window.
Added information, the window can be narrowed even more. The Sealed pattern was approved on 8 November 1915. I believe the Sealed means there is a pattern gun in the Tower of London where pattern guns are stored. There were two more Spanish companies approved but their contract was cancelled after only one year, because of the number of rejects. It seems doubtful that very many of Orbea's gun were ever issued to the military 29.500 total, contract was for 30.000 .The other maker Rexach & Urgoite made 500 but none have ever been seen with military markings. After the war the guns were used by various police agencies of the empire for example the Royal Irish Constabulary used the Eibar guns until the 1950's. Which ones, don't know.

Clermont
March 2, 2012, 08:27 PM
clermont these guns would have been produced during ww1 so dating them exactly is hard but you have a fairly small window to shoot at.

If the revolver has the words NITRO PROOF, it was proofed prior to 1954, if it doesn't, it was proofed later. If the revolver lacks the words NITRO PROOF, it may possibly have never been a military acquisition during WWI only because I doubt it would have remained in inventory to be released in 1954 or later, at which time it would have been proofed. British military firearms are commercially proofed when they're released into the commercial trade.

Jim K
March 2, 2012, 10:56 PM
If a gun does not have British military proofs and the broad arrow, it was not used in British military service. They did buy and store guns in both wars that were never issued and have no military proofs, only the commercial proofs put on when the gun was sold out of depot storage.

The problem is that there is no way to tell a gun that was sold from military stores that had never been military marked from a gun that was commercially imported into Britain. So some of those guns could have been imported and sold to British military officers but not purchased by the British government.

Jim

Dr.Rob
March 4, 2012, 04:15 PM
This is the type of Eibar in .455 SGN was talking about:

Jim K
March 5, 2012, 12:08 AM
Of course, the term "Eibar" could apply to any of the makes under discussion; all the companies were in the Basque region around that city.

As to the "sealed pattern", yes that means that there was a gun "sealed" (it literally had a wax seal put on it) and it became the standard for production guns. The maker(s) could change, but the product had to be as identical as possible to the sealed pattern. Given the state of Spanish arms production at that period, I would expect that only the maker of the sealed pattern revolver would be able to produce guns close enough to meet requirements (and maybe not then).

So, Ron, assuming you mean Orbea, not Obera, you have thrown yet another Spanish company, Rexach & Urgoite, into the discussion. I wonder how many companies made, or tried to make, revolvers in .455 for the British and how many actually were accepted.

Jim

Ron James
March 5, 2012, 12:41 AM
Don't know , Only two contract numbers still exist but only 4 makers have been identified. Rexach only made 500 firearms, most were rejected for defects.

murdoc rose
March 5, 2012, 12:52 AM
This has been an interesting topic. First I've heard of rexach. Does anyone know of guard gun or police markings on any of these guns? I'm shocked that the brits where so picky considering the war and all.

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