Simunitions? Anyone Done 'Live-Fire' Training?

[Skunkabilly]

Anyone train with Simunitions? How are the ballistics, i.e. effective range, do they get blown around easily, etc.?

Any further info would be 'preciated.

[CWL]

Simunitions training is usually done indoors in some sort of "shoot house" and at CQB range. You hit where you aim at. The velocities of the round is slower than real ammo, but you are so close that it doesn't affect the outcome. Everyone is usually wearing protection so you don't feel it much anyways. I have managed to duck out of simfire before, but I don't know if it was due to lower velocities, or just plain luck/speed.

Simunitions uses real guns with different barrels so feel is the same as real weapons. I've used .45 pistol and 12ga.

When you train with simunitions, you are so 'into the zone' that you take everything life or death serious. Your adrenaline & tunnelvision is in full effect. It isn't a game and it isn't like paintball.

I have talked to some who complain that too much simunition usage will train one to "flinch" when practicing, but I haven't encountered it.

Demi Debartolo and Walt Marshall use simunitions in CA courses.

[M1911]

If you do take a course with Simunitions, make sure that those running it are paranoid in terms of safety. The folks at SigArms Academy certainly are. No ammo allowed in the training area. Each person in gets searched with metal detector wand and frisked.

Each year there are police officers who die in training accidents because their trainers weren't paranoid enough.

Some civilian trainers are turning to Airsoft because of 1) cost and 2) safety.

[PATH]

Where on the east coast can you do this?

[sam3]

skunk simms travel about 100 f.p.s. faster than most paintball safety equip. is rated for. on unprotected skin or skin just covered by light clothing hits will cause a welt and a bruise. face,throat and groin protection is mandatory , i work not far from were someone was not using groin protection he is somewhat less of a man now ! the handgun conversions are fairly accurate at the close ranges they are intended for. the shotgun conversions, that are just a 38 simm round put in a 12 gauge simm shotgun shell hull, are somewhat less accurate and not very consistant as to were the rounds go , if you shoot them at a target down range they may have a "group" of more than a foot or more wide. as cwl posted it is very close to being in a real gunfight. the paintballs are launched by a real primer so the guns go bang,have muzzle flash and recoil .
safety is very important you can explain the rules of no live guns,ammo, mags etc. to a group of people and go to the training site and some brain surgeon will try coming in with something they were just told not to bring inside. thats why simms preachs about safety and having a designated safety officer so much.

[M1911]

Where on the east coast can you do this?The more advanced courses at Sigarms Academy (http://www.sigarmsacademy.com) do some simunitions excercises. They're about 1 1/2 hours north of Boston.

[PATH]

M1911,

Thanks for the heads up!

PATH

[10-Ring]

Sinsei, are you crossing over to the Ubertactical?

[Titan]

Skunk, CWL had it right about being in the"zone' The big difference is the first time you shoot you are expecting recoil and the usual loud noise.Sims are toned way down but are the best force on force.Hope you get to play one day.


BTW.....LOVED YOUR GRADUATION PICTURE :D

[doseyclwn]

Team Virginia
PO Box 1361
Chesterfield, VA 23832
804-931-4554

Glenn Blandford, Instructor

Team Virginia (http://teamvirginia.tripod.com)

I took a class there and it was awesome. The instructors are very paranoid about safety. Before each simulation, we had to have the rounds checked by 3 different people before we could proceed. And the simunitions did hurt a bit, especially if you get hit in the willy.

[Skunkabilly]

I'll have to check on how paranoid my people are on safety. They want me as a volunteer (i.e. target), but if I'm not happy with their safety standards, I'm out.

The guy was gone on Friday, guess I'll ask him tomorrow.

[voilsb]

anyone know where on the west coast does this training? preferably in OR/WA

[M1911]

I'll have to check on how paranoid my people are on safety. They want me as a volunteer (i.e. target), but if I'm not happy with their safety standards, I'm out.Don't hesitate to walk out. Each year cops are killed in Simuntions training because some bonehead does not enforce/follow the rules. There can be no live ammo in the training area. None, nadda, zippo. EVERYONE going into the training area must be searched. EVERYONE. If someone leaves, they don't come back without getting searched. No exceptions.

[Skunkabilly]

Each year cops are killed in Simuntions training because some bonehead does not enforce/follow the rules.

How many?

I'll make sure I ask. Thanks for the heads up.

I think girls will like me even less with a bunch of .45 sized holes in me.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Skunk-

Off the top of my head, I couldn't tell you. I know that it seems like the last two years have been really horrible in regards to stupid training accidents. This is both civilian LE and in the military.

I'm aware of a couple incidents involving blanks (one LE & one mil) and at least two involving live ammo in Sims scenarios. I know there were more but I can only recall the specifics of the above four.

Gunsite does Sims training in all of their intermediate & advanced classes and has for quite some time now. Due to the degree in which safety is emphasized & enforced, we have not had the problems that have occured elsewhere. This is one area where no one, anywhere, should ever get a pass.

Erick

[CWL]

A cop just got killed recently in CA (Central Valley?) during a Simunitions run. Apparently somebody brought their real gun into the shoot-area.

This is a much more common occurence with 'some' LE Agencies that do Simunitions, they are just more lax than private training places.

Privately-run Simunitions places are typically beyond paranoid and very stringent regarding safety, ie. no knives, keys, metal allowed into area. The place I've run at has us wearing bodyarmor as well. Some will even use a metal-detector.

[M1911]

Skunk - seems to be around 1 - 4 each year. You can find them with a google search. Here's one:
http://www.thedentlawfirm.com/officer.inquiry.html
Privately-run Simunitions places are typically beyond paranoid and very stringent regarding safety, ie. no knives, keys, metal allowed into area. The place I've run at has us wearing bodyarmor as well. Some will even use a metal-detector.That describes my experience at SigArms Academy. They did use a handheld metal detector AND hand-checked your waistband. You CANNOT cut corners on safety with Simunitions. If you do, people can get killed.

[10-Ring]

Skunk - sounds like this could be potentially more dangerous that 1st impressions may suggest. But, anything worth while will carry w/ it a certain amount of risk. As long as safety of everyone is strictly pursued, everyone will be ok.

[SIGarmed]

Skunk If its the same stuff that I've seen used and I've actually used it, the simmunition barrels or firing mechanisms should be a different color than the real parts that make the gun work. I mean you have to switch the barrel lets say on a Berreta M9 in order to shoot simmunition. So the barrel on a simmunition equipped gun will be blue. Every kind of firearms is different so I'm not sure if this is true for every gun. The MP5's and service type pistols should have the different color. You can tell they're equipped to shoot simmunition by looking at them. I'm pretty sure you can't shoot real ammo out of a simmunition equipped gun. You might want to ask about your specific situation though.

As for the projectile? Its a real brass cased round and the bullet is a soft plastic that encases a colored substance with the consistency of woman's red lipstick. The stuff I used only had a couple of squirts of the lipstick inside and I could see it because the plastic was see through. Its really soft. It just really hurts when you get shot directly on skin from close range. I haven't seen it break the skin though. I've seen paintball injuries that are worse. I don't know what you'll be shooting so it might not be the same for every firearm. Better to ask those in charge of the range and find out before you partake in this training to make sure if you're worried about it.

[CWL]

I was told that the 'paint' is actually liquid soap. Makes sense since it doesn't stain.

A Simunitions gun will not be able to chamber real ammo in that caliber. The barrel is a smaller diameter. Even though this is true, you are not allowed to bring live ammo into the shoot area.

While the barrels are painted blue, I've never been able to identify gun color during a sim run. You see "gun" or you don't.

People are hurt in sims by people using real weapons loaded with real bullets. I do not believe that anyone has been hurt by live fire from out of a Simunitions gun.

[ahenry]

A buddy of mine with a PD did some active shooter training with simunitions. He told me about it afterwards and my impression was that it was an incredibly impressive way to practice. It sounds to me like its about as real as you can get without real lead flying downrange. He also said hits hurt...a lot. After hearing him talk about it, I’d like to get myself some simunitions training, but for the time being it doesn’t look like I’ll get the chance. If you're happy with the safety aspect (and don't compromise on that issue) then I'd jump at it.

[fastbolt]

Here's a review of a Simunitions training session I participated in a couple of years ago ... which I originally wrote in answer to a question on another forum ...

Once during a Simunitions exercise I found myself suddenly under fire by 2 armed attackers, instead of the "expected" single armed attacker, while I was seated in a chair behind a table. As I reacted, drew my pistol and started to return fire, my SIG equipped Simunitions pistol malfunctioned. This situation caused me to do something totally unexpected. I threw myself out of my chair to the ground.

I distinctly remember seeing one of the attackers from the waist down as I hit the floor under the table, while clearing the malfunction with a TRB. I returned fire with a double tap at the exposed lower torso. I then located the other attacker, seeing his head above a table surface as he was hiding behind another table, and returned fire in that direction. I later saw I'd hit the table edge with a pair of tightly spaced splats, just below where the attacker's head had been visible. The exercise ended and I got up from the floor.

The wall directly behind where I'd been sitting when the shooting started had a nicely grouped double splat about where my upper torso/head would've been if I'd remained stationary, and the table surface had taken a hit near my arm as I'd thrown myself from the chair.

I remember several thoughts occuring to me ...

I don't like Simunitions training. My "partner" suffered two nasty lacerations to his exposed arms.

SIGs aren't my usual weapon, as I don't own one and don't carry one on duty, and it felt "unfamiliar" and not as "comfortable" in my hands during the situation. I carry different DA/SA pistols. Of course, the fact that I was wearing ridged finger motocross gloves might've had something to do with it, as well. I was wearing the knuckle & finger protecting gloves in anticipation of the phenomena of incoming rounds striking the weapon hand ... so I'm a sissy, I already knew that ...

I don't remember deciding to throw myself out of the chair to the floor. But I do remember not wanting to face 2 armed attackers within 2-5 yards while sitting still, and it didn't seem I had the time to get up from the chair and start running, not that there was anywhere to run in that particular scenario.

I don't remember when I realized my pistol had suffered a feeding malfunction. I just remember watching my hands bring my pistol in front of my vision, so I could locate my attackers (who were moving themselves, smart fellows that they were) while also identifying the nature of the malfunction. I remember watching the lower body of the closest attacker moving across my field of vision, while seeing my hands perform a modified TRB to clear the malfunction (a magazine & ammunition related feeding malfunction. Gotta love Simunitions ...), and then watching the pistol's front sight float over the lower torso of the closest attacker ... and seeing 2 bright pink splats appear next to each other on his lower torso. I was lying on my right side, which is my dominant side, with my back against the wall behind me, as I cleared the malfunction and returned fire. I didn't have much room in which to go anywhere else.

Now, while I practice to be able to reload on the move without looking at my weapon, if at all possible, this incident caused me to realize something ...

Under the induced stress of a Simunitions exercise, which involved not only more than the "expected" number of people suddenly shooting at me, but a malfunction with a weapon I only have a passing familiarity with ... some part of my mind relied upon training to not only continue to watch the threat, but to take that time & position necessary to diagnose and correct the malfunction. I remember being more of an "observer" than consciously directing my actions during this incident. I believe I would've reloaded in the same manner as I diagnosed and cleared the malfunction. This is a guess, but one based upon conclusions and lessons learned from "watching" myself under "mild" stress.

I know some folks believe you should be able to clear malfunctions without diagnosing them ... All I can say is some part of my mind did it and got the weapon back in action before I had time to consciously think about it ... and fortunately, before the attackers realized I wasn't down because I'd been "hit". It was all over in several seconds.

Now ... having been warned about Simunitions training by someone else, I'd picked up a couple of things to wear for the training. The leather gloves with the ridged & padded knuckle protection, some plastic youth shin guards to cover the outside of my forearms, some elbow pads, and ... of course, my ballistic vest worn under a sweat shirt and my fatigue shirt. The folks hosting the training provided the neck, face & head protection.

While most folks probably won't care to wear the protection I did, you ought to at least wear long sleeves. My partner for the scenario wore just a t-shirt, and after taking a hit on each outer forearm he suffered a nasty laceration on each arm. Shallow, but nasty ... The Simunition rounds can break your skin when delivered to unprotected skin at close range ...

You will most likely be able to experience some of the psychological and physiological states that frequently occur under stressful conditions, depending on the nature and duration of your scenario. Since mine involved 4 people exchanging fire within close proximity, using movement & the "cover" of furniture, it allowed for several seconds of heightened perception and responses.

If it's convenient to attend, you'll probably enjoy the experience ... although I'm not exactly a "fan", I learned some interesting things about myself and the results of some of my training.

And, while I'd naturally prefer to attend such training with a familiar weapon ... as would most of us ... I discovered it didn't really matter what weapon I was using as soon as the scenario's intensity "kicked in", so to speak. If our training is successful, we're actually training ourselves more to adapt to potential encounters with whatever weapon is available at hand ... issued, on-duty, off-duty, confiscated, appropriated, etc ... than we are to react with a specific, "favorite" weapon. At least, that's one of the thoughts that occurred to me afterward.

As an example, since I didn't have a holster for the provided SIG, having brought a different make of weapon to the week's course, I was forced to place the weapon in one of my thigh cargo pockets for the Simunitions session that afternoon. This placed it at a reasonably awkward position to access while seated ... and yet, I don't even remember how, or even when, I drew it after the shooting started.

Listening to some other folks that have attended Simunition training, and how functionally reliable the modifed pistols can often be ... you might want to brush up on your malfunction clearance skills before attending.:) And be prepared to be "open-minded" when it comes to the weapons provided ...

Have fun ... wear some protection ... and make absolutely sure that NOBODY has any real (Non-Sim modified) weapons or ammunition anywhere near the exercise, even if they're only "observing".

[Skunkabilly]

My guy says they search everyone at the range. Don't know if this is prior to the shooting, or on entry to the facility.

[sw442642]

Done it around 5 times now. I highly recommend it for the serious student. Punching paper and IDPA is nothing like it. You can get hurt. I did have some impressive bruises and the movement in the scenario can cause you to get banged up. Not for the armchair commando.

[Wilhelm]

A friend of mine is an Orange County deputy. He got to play bad guy against the S.W.A.T. team once. He still talks about it with a gleam in his eye. I am hoping to give it a try some time this year.



Wilhelm

[jsalcedo]

My friends and I would load wax plugs in our 357's (primer, tiny circle of paper and parafin and chase each other around a homemade area. Speedloader reloading was very stressful when
you are under attack. That wax hurt like hell when it hit.

We never had any real ammo available
but I can see where it was much more dangerous than I had previously thought.

Thanks for the info on simmunitions I have a new found respect.

[DT Guy]

For the record, I have scars from Simunition training. They can certainly break the skin!

Larry

[Harold Mayo]

Find someplace and take a course with Simunitions.

If someone who is serious about self-defense with firearms DOESN'T take a Simunitions course, I liken it to someone who takes a martial art for self-defense but never practices any full-contact fighting. You might be able to defend yourself but, with more realistic training and experience, you'll be a hell of a lot more capable.

[ERT6]

If you have the time, I would suggest reading "Training at the speed of life" by Ken Murray. Murray is one of the founders of the Simunition products which are based in Canada. I have read the book and have found it very informational as far as safety protocals for simunition FX marking cartridges.

Also, Simunition makes several different types of ammunition, most of it is lethal ammunition. Only the "FX" marking cartridges are to be used for Non-Lethal projectile force on force training scenario's better known as reality based training. It is my understadning that Glcok makes a handgun that is to use only the "FX" cartridges and all other weapons that can be, must be converted.

I have been shot and hit several times as a role player in RBT training with Simunition FX marking cartridges and it does hurt a little. Face, Throat and groin protection are mandatory if you don't want to loose everything you have. (Law suit). Simunition FX marking cartridges are deffinately a very good training tool if used properly.

ERT6

[trueblue1776]

yes, they can make you bleed, but they are so much fun. Way more fun than paintball!!! :D

[444]

"Gunsite does Sims training in all of their intermediate & advanced classes and has for quite some time now."

I did two sims senarios when I took Gunsite's Advanced Carbine. I was horrible and almost certainly would have been killed in both senarios. In one of them, I got triple tapped in the right side and it hurt like hell.

Something that is interesting about that senario where I got shot, as a civilian, is that it wasn't a clear cut SHOOT situation. Who the bad guy was, wasn't obvious. In fact, the person that shot me was a "sleeper". This wasn't just a game where we hunted and shot each other.

[trueblue1776]

I've done three live fire classes so far, the one that comes to mind is this one:

My team had to clear a 10,000 sq ft office/wherehouse deal. There were two or three BG trainers in there, and one "observer" up on a catwalk probably 25' above the floor. We apprehended one armed suspect safely, then the "observer" started taking shots at us! I walked underneath him and shot him in the cornhole. It was HILARIOUS!!!! Ex-marine tough guy got a soap round enema. That was the last time my squad went to that "school". :D

If you get the chance I say go for it, it's run, and way more realistic than miles gear or paintball

[.45Guy]

The force on force exercise at NTA/JWTC, Camp Gonzalves used simunitions when I went through in '99. Of course the reaction course had us using Daisy bb guns. Go figure.

[Bob F.]

I was an "actor" in an F-R-I level III class. Trainee popped me from across the room, from "retention", smack in the middle of the sternum. I was wearing a paintball mask and throat protector and "cup", along with jeans and a heavy t-shirt. Hit scuffed the skin off a 9mm sized spot and I had a mark for months. Didn't really hurt that much, but would recommend at least a piece of foam carpet padding under your shirt, along with the required protection. Even though I wasn't a trainee, I learned a lot that weekend. Try it, with a competent instructor.

Stay safer.
Bob

[ShackleMeNot]

Structured, professional Force on Force training is the single most important thing you can do to start to apply all the square range shooting concepts. Too many people stop their development at trying to shoot smaller and smaller groups. Marksmanship is important but only as a function of your ability to get quality hits while someone is trying to kill you. The other large component that is missing from the square range is decision making. Deciding what you need to do before you have to do it for real will put you light years ahead of the game when the stakes are real. Getting to work out the bugs and make your major errors in training will save your life on the street.

[possum]

I have only trained with simunitions in a MOUT trainning which was conducted in Kuwait before we crossed the border. It was pretty cool, We would have went live, but the MOUT site wasn't set up for live rds!

[hso]

Anyone train with Simunitions? How are the ballistics, i.e. effective range, do they get blown around easily, etc.?

Any further info would be 'preciated.

I've seen Simunitions used in SWAT competitions first hand and I went through training with Simunitions at Guncraft and was assistant instructor (designated BG/target) as well. The instructor and I did not allow any outside weapons in the training area during Simunition training. We made everyone turn all their pockets out and any ammo or mags were put into a locked box. We loaded all the guns ourselves and handed them to the students only after we got to the shoot house area. This was to prevent any real ammunition from coming close to the Simuntion Glocks and to keep us alive.

Simunitions can break unprotected skin (nice little scar on my left middle finger from forgetting my gloves) if it hits at an oblique angle. It will leave a nice welt and bruise if it hits lightly covered parts. Face, neck and hands have to be protected. We used paintball masks that we tested before use and throat protectors. Gloves, as I said, were priceless. I've seen padded Carharts, sno-mo suites, special pad jackets all used. We used special padded chest/groin protetors with the mask and other gear.

Over short distances it's amazingly accurate when you think about what it is.

Every stress shooting response you read about is seen with Simunition training (I didn't take serious half of what I read until I went through the training). Vision tunnels. Hearing cuts out. Hands shake. Nausea. Sweats. Students will lock up and fail to draw. If they drew, they didn't present the weapon. If they presented, they didn't fire. If they fired, they fired too soon into the ground (or their leg). If they didn't shoot the ground they only shot once and then looked to see if they hit (as if I was a paper target). If they shot more than once, they turned away without seeing if I dropped or stayed down, some of them could hit me at 8 feet distance, and on and on. Some of them did not hesitate and shot COM until I was down in a heart-beat and keep the weapon on me while scanning for other threats.

It's the best training you can get and better the more you do it.

[hso]

Anyone train with Simunitions? How are the ballistics, i.e. effective range, do they get blown around easily, etc.?

Any further info would be 'preciated.

I've seen Simunitions used in SWAT competitions first hand and I went through training with Simunitions at Guncraft and was assistant instructor (designated BG/target) as well. The instructor and I did not allow any outside weapons in the training area during Simunition training. We made everyone turn all their pockets out and any ammo or mags were put into a locked box. We loaded all the guns ourselves and handed them to the students only after we got to the shoot house area. This was to prevent any real ammunition from coming close to the Simuntion Glocks and to keep us alive.

Simunitions can break unprotected skin (nice little scar on my left middle finger from forgetting my gloves) if it hits at an oblique angle. It will leave a nice welt and bruise if it hits lightly covered parts. Face, neck and hands have to be protected. We used paintball masks that we tested before use and throat protectors. Gloves, as I said, were priceless. I've seen padded Carharts, sno-mo suites, special pad jackets all used. We used special padded chest/groin protetors with the mask and the other gear.

Over short distances it's amazingly accurate when you think about what it is.

Every stress shooting response you read about is seen with Simunition training (I didn't take serious half of what I read until I went through the training). Vision tunnels. Hearing cuts out. Hands shake. Nausea. Sweats. Students will lock up and fail to draw. If they drew, they didn't present the weapon. If they presented, they didn't fire. If they fired, they fired too soon into the ground (or their leg). If they didn't shoot the ground they only shot once and then looked to see if they hit (as if I was a paper target). If they shot more than once, they turned away without seeing if I dropped or stayed down, some of them could hit me at 8 feet distance, and on and on. Some of them did not hesitate and shot COM until I was down in a heart-beat and keep the weapon on me while scanning for other threats.

It's the best training you can get and better the more you do it.

[444]

I did something that I can't believe to this day.
I had a guy in a hallway. I couldn't enter the hall way without him having me dead to rights. In a panic, I stuck the gun around the corner and sprayed shots down the hallway with my head and body outside the hall. :banghead:

I think about this every time I see that footage from Vietnam where the USGI holds his M16 up over his head above the rim of the foxhole and sprays the jungle.

[fastbolt]

Forgot to add in my original posting that yes, I wore a cup/groin protector.;)

I wouldn't consider attending the training without wearing a vest (I keep a couple of my older, previous vests on hand for such training needs), either.

One thing I was also glad to have devoted practice time to was malfunction-clearance skills. Sim-modified guns can be interesting.;)

When good instructors set up the scenarios the training can be invaluable. Not all of the scenarios involved during the class I attended were 'shoot situations', requiring sound judgment and knowledge of the laws involving deadly force.

The scenario I drew was a 'shoot' situation. Matter of fact, it was a deliberate ambush of my partner and I in a restaurant by a couple of fellows involved in a 'minor' verbal argument, intended to place us in a close range ambush while we were dining at the mock restaurant. It worked.

The only reason I survived the scenario is that as soon as the shooting started and my Sim-gun malfunctioned I dove for cover under the table. The suspects assumed I'd been shot and doubled up on my partner. Once I resolved the malfunction and surprised the closest suspect with a tightly spaced double tap at the bottom of his front vest panel (which was as high as I could see from under the damned table, since he was literally at the opposite edge of my table advancing on my partner, continuing to shoot him), I turned my attention to the more distant suspect, who had also apparently been surprised by my reappearance, and had taken 'cover' behind some other tables.

The distances started out at approx 5 yards in the beginning, and quickly decreased once the suspects started shooting at us. I defeated the first suspect from less than a yard distant, but only because he thought I'd been 'killed' and had fallen to the floor, out of the fight. He was quite surprised when he was unexpectedly hit from close range, after I'd finally gotten the double-feed cleared while rolling around under the damned table ... and the second suspect was forced to cover by my returning to the fight, approx 5-7 yards distant by the time the scenario was halted, because I was focusing aimed shots at the part of the table edge concealing the suspect's head as he crouched behind the table trying to shoot back at me.

My partner attempted to exchange gunfire with the suspects during the brief encounter, going from sitting to standing, in the 'open'. No cover whatsoever. I think he also received at least one torso hit, but it was the forearm hits that were bloody (his 2-handed shooting style obviously placing his weapon in his COM). I wouldn't have survived more than the first couple of seconds if I'd remained seated or attempted to stand and fight them.

Made me rethink some patterned responses in some of my training ... and I returned to my agency and thanked the head rangemaster for all of his emphasis on malfunction clearance and the timely usage of cover. I didn't remember consciously making the decision to take cover, though ... I just found myself doing it once I realized my pistol had experienced a malfunction after my first hasty shot (which apparently missed, BTW), rushed too quickly after fighting to somehow get the pistol from out of the BDU pocket I was forced to use as a 'holster'.

I soon after really increased my attention on malfunction drills and skills, as well as the use of any nearby cover and shooting while on the move either to cover, or advancing toward the targets, depending on the situations.

The instant debriefing and evaluation of the scenario by the experienced instructors was very useful, too ... and the looks on the rest of the cops attending the class, who had yet to go through their own scenarios, but were allowed to observe ours, was something to see. A bit of trepidation, perhaps? Nobody in their right mind ever wants to find themselves in that sort of situation, do they?

It's good training, but make sure the instructors are properly trained and very, very cognizant of all safety issues.

[ShackleMeNot]

Here's a link to an AAR from one of our Force on Force classes:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=157436

[Gocart]

There is no way to overstate the value of quality FoF training. The stress induced is not artificial, it is real. This training provides a realistic picture of how you will perform in a real lethal force confrontation.

[hso]

I did something that I can't believe to this day.
I had a guy in a hallway. I couldn't enter the hall way without him having me dead to rights. In a panic, I stuck the gun around the corner and sprayed shots down the hallway with my head and body outside the hall. :banghead:

I think about this every time I see that footage from Vietnam where the USGI holds his M16 up over his head above the rim of the foxhole and sprays the jungle.

I had a LEO in the class that was also a bullseye shooter. He was very confident of his skills and experience. I was backed up into a little 3 ft wide 6 ft deep dead end "corridor" when he pokes his head and surefire around the corner at knee level and ducks back around. A second later he jumps out into the T corridor intersection and starts to crank off rounds from the Simuniton Glock. Never checked his "6" and the instructor shot him in the back 3 times with him never feeling it. Afte having 7 Sim rounds zip past me to each side or high I got bored and raised my Sim revolver and put a round into his faceshield. He was not happy.

The smartest guy that we trained entered the shoot house on a return home scenario and spotted me as I changed rooms. He drew his weapon to cover the corridor he caught a glimps of me crossing and left the "home" to call the "cops" at the "neighbor's". We passed him on the spot. He never flinched and he never hesitated and his every response was nearly perfect.

[jungle]

The real value of Simunitions is being able to shoot at a live human. It shows you how quickly things can happen and how difficult it can be to plan for or counter an attack by a cunning or unpredictable advesary.
Yes, they can hurt, which adds a bit to the realism.

[sacp81170a]

One of the most important things I picked up in the Active Shooter class I took a couple months ago is that you've got to *see* the bad guy before you can shoot him. On several occasions, we would make entries into large, darkened rooms full of desks and assorted school furniture (we were using a local junior high school for our training) and fail to see one or more BG's while focussing on the most obvious threat. It don't matter how fast and accurately you can shoot if you don't see the BG and he kills you before you see him! That's what sims training drilled into my litte pea brain. :D