Am I doing right?


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wannabeagunsmith
February 28, 2012, 02:55 PM
I have posted two comments on a video posted by a police dept. of a gun buyback program they have led. The comments go as follows :

(THEM):While we realize there will always be critics for everything we do, wed like to make a couple of points. First, no tax money was used to carry out this program. The gift cards were purchased using seizure funds (what we confiscate from drug dealers, etc.) not tax payer money. The second point is that this program took 324 guns off the street that could have been potentially used for criminal activity- including replica guns (there were restrictions on who could turn them in and how many).

(ME): off the street? Weren't they safe in lawful citizen's houses? (I meant to say law-abiding, oops)

(THEM): guns are often targeted in residential burglaries - which then can be used for illegal activity.

(ME):I know what you are getting at, but if a robber wants to steal someone's guns, how are they going to get past a gun-weilding homeowner? If they (the homeowner) are on vacation they are most often always locked away in a safe.

Have my answers been correct as far as defending my point, and should I include anything else? It is really simple logic.... He will most likely reply soon, so I will keep you all posted. Here is a link to the video (remove the space in the www.)

http://ww w.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Pg2rdiF2c&lc=YY-FhX7TaPIG4FUuSqrPE2jk7E-pIsZ1zWBh911s-0w&feature=inbox

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Bovice
February 28, 2012, 03:07 PM
the gun wielding homeowner isn't always home, and a safe can be broken into given enough time. It doesn't take a professional safe cracker to open a safe if you have enough time. You need an alarm system, that way all of your neighbors will know something is up and if it's monitored, the police will at least be notified automatically. Home security is achieved in layers.

I'm not disagreeing with you, that's just the truth.

firesky101
February 28, 2012, 03:13 PM
Difficult to change opinion. They likely discussed the issue at length before announcing. You are not wrong, just talking to a wall. You need to talk to your legislators and convince them it is a waste of time for the pd.

MtnCreek
February 28, 2012, 03:14 PM
It is really simple logic....
You’re not married, are you? Some arguments cannot be won with logic.

wannabeagunsmith
February 28, 2012, 03:18 PM
You’re not married, are you? Some arguments cannot be won with logic. HAha no, I am not married lol but frequently get into arguments that " cannot be won with logic"..

ApacheCoTodd
February 28, 2012, 03:18 PM
While you're not completely correct, you're in no way too far outa line with your personal point of view.

I don't think I've known any of the firearms burglaries of which I'm aware, to have taken place while the owner was home so at least in my experience getting past a gun owner to steal his guns has not been an issue.

Of the firearms thefts that I'm aware of - several have either gotten into the safes present or simply stolen the entire safe to deal with elsewhere.

Their use of the phrase "off the streets" was a good point for you to make but their use of the words "can" and "potentially" leaves them a lot of wiggle room.

Fortunately they do not use the same connective potentiality with cars to DUI/wrongful death, medicine cabinets to the illegal drug trade etc...

I should think your exchange would at least cause them to better hone their public presentation of the program and for that they are doing well to discuss it with you and you're doing well to remain a concerned citizen. Just have a care to not present as a "cold dead fingers" type.

GoWolfpack
February 28, 2012, 03:18 PM
Better to make your point as concisely as possible and bow out of the discussion. Just like here, protracted arguments rarely do anything to prove a point and mostly just make the participants feel smug.

TheDriver
February 28, 2012, 03:51 PM
Don't no-questions-asked gun buybacks create a market (increase demand) for stolen guns? What happens when demand goes up?

ApacheCoTodd
February 28, 2012, 03:57 PM
Don't no-questions-asked gun buybacks create a market (increase demand) for stolen guns? What happens when demand goes up?
Well now, there's an interesting and pertinent question that I've never heard asked.

Panzercat
February 28, 2012, 04:03 PM
Of note, how do these ninja burglers know there's a gun in the house to begin with? Where is this statistic? I would start calling BS on that point alone.

The Mayor
February 28, 2012, 04:06 PM
I take exception to the 'no tax dollars' part, any money the department takes in could be used to buy more equipment or hire more personnel. Or it could be used to offset their budgit and lower our tax bill.
Any time the government spends, it affects the taxes.

ApacheCoTodd
February 28, 2012, 04:07 PM
""Of note, how do these ninja burglers know there's a gun in the house to begin with? ""

A guy shows off his bang sticks or brags about his ability to either defend hearth and home and/or shoot gnats at 100 meters, then the fella he brags/shows off to tells a guy who tells a guy and so on.

Or maybe he just shows off pictures of his racks of guns on the internet...:evil:

Owen Sparks
February 28, 2012, 04:11 PM
Hasn't it been proven that more guns equal less crime? Therefore by logical extention shouldn't the police be trying to get more guns "on the street" to deter crime?
After all... It's for the children!

wannabeagunsmith
February 28, 2012, 04:45 PM
Thanks for the replies guys, I really appreciate it!

TX1911fan
February 28, 2012, 05:15 PM
#1, Panzercat's point. #2, with this guy's logic, the PD should be buying "back" cars, knives, bats, bows and arrows and all sorts of other things that can be stolen and used in crimes. Just because a gun is in the home does not mean it will be stolen, and just because the PD buys it "back" doesn't mean it won't end up being used in a crime anyway. Lots of stuff makes its way out of a PD evidence locker and onto the street.

I put "back" in quotes because the PD didn't sell the gun in the first place, so how can they buy it back?

FROGO207
February 28, 2012, 05:15 PM
I learned a long time ago that logic rarely wins an argument where the other participant uses emotions to frame their point. Mostly they will not sway from their skewed beliefs so I lay out the facts and let them deal with it when they can process it without my further involvement. This will sometimes work but not all that often. The no questions buyback creating a market for stolen guns is a good point for them to think about IMHO. Good thought.:)

armoredman
February 28, 2012, 06:01 PM
It's not a "buy back" as they cannot buy back property that they never legally owned. It's a partially compensated voluntary confiscation. A friend used to have a US Revolver Co .32 in pieces waiting for such an event...never happened in Tucson while I was there. :)

Hardtarget
February 28, 2012, 07:39 PM
I've got a piece of junk that I MAY do next time Metro tries this.

What I wonder about is what happens to these guns. Metro is not allowed to melt or otherwise destroy confiscated guns. They have been whin-nniing-g-g about this for some time. Seems they've run out of storage space. Too bad. Start selling to gun shops or to the honest citizens. If the attitude is just "get them off the street" ...well....selling would just make their heads explode!:what::D Too bad.

Mark

oneounceload
February 28, 2012, 07:50 PM
Keeping bad guys locked away instead of using catch and release would cut down on crime a lot

hso
February 28, 2012, 08:17 PM
It is a myth that most guns used in crimes are stolen from residences so the idea that they're preventing crime by getting people to bring guns from home is false.

c1ogden
February 28, 2012, 08:31 PM
The gift cards were purchased using seizure funds (what we confiscate from drug dealers, etc.) not tax payer money.


Another line of BS. Seizure funds ARE taxpayer money. It didn't come from them but it does belong to them. And it IS the same as spending tax money because, were it not wasted on vote buying publicity stunts like this one, it would have been used to offset (lower) future taxes.

ATBackPackin
February 28, 2012, 09:19 PM
These things are a JOKE. Firstly, I would like to know how many illegal guns or guns used in a crime have been taken "off the streets" with these voluntary confiscations??? Secondly, do you really think a criminal is going to turn in his/her gun for a lousy fifty dollar gift card to target??? Or even better, an "assault weapon" for $100???

A JOKE. All they do is rip of widows who do not know what to do with their late husbands guns. Or either an old junk gun that you cannot sell for fifty dollars.

Actually I take that back, they are not a joke. They are going perfectly according to the plan. GET LEGAL GUNS OFF THE STREET.

exavid
February 28, 2012, 09:51 PM
There have been buy backs in Oregon where people were on the sidewalk checking out the guns going in and buying them for a bit more than the cops were paying. It's legal here for a resident to sell to another resident with no background check. The article I read said that some pretty nice guns were junked for $50. Makes me wonder what I could have gotten for $55.

Millwright
February 28, 2012, 09:55 PM
FWIW,

A "gun safe" is safe only so long as it remains concealed from casual observaton. >MW

NavyLCDR
February 28, 2012, 10:03 PM
Left my comment:

I would think that a better use of resources would be to remove criminals from the streets rather than inanimate objects. Your program took 324 guns off the street that could have been used by law abiding citizens to defend themselves from criminal attacks. Here's an idea...take those 324 guns and donate to an FFL to transfer to law abiding citizens for self-defense and volunteer your time to teach them safe firearm handling and self-defense techniques. Guns don't commit crimes, criminals do.

Steel Horse Rider
February 28, 2012, 10:11 PM
How can they spend evidence?

Panzercat
February 28, 2012, 10:23 PM
""Of note, how do these ninja burglers know there's a gun in the house to begin with? ""

A guy shows off his bang sticks or brags about his ability to either defend hearth and home and/or shoot gnats at 100 meters, then the fella he brags/shows off to tells a guy who tells a guy and so on. Or maybe he just shows off pictures of his racks of guns on the internet...:evil:
Rhetorical question really ;)
Obviously they would have to make it known to the world, but realistically? I'm kinda doubting the statistic.

medalguy
February 29, 2012, 01:39 AM
Recently in Austin Texas a buyback was done. The APD spokesman told a reporter they "ran all the serial numbers to determine if any of the firearms had been used in the commission of a crime. We got no positive reports."

Well, how in the world would they be able to check serial numbers to see if any had been used in crime? I can see the clerk at the local stop-n-rob asking the criminal to let him write down the serial number of the gun he carried. D'oh!!

Ignition Override
February 29, 2012, 02:01 AM
Panzercat:
A national network had a short news episode with a convicted, experienced burglar, who went into a house with a pillow case.

Most go straight to the master bedroom.

Where else do most residents keep handguns and jewelry? This guy was out in less than five minutes with some valuable objects.

The really sad part is that vast numbers of adults are not aware that their young boys have figured out where handguns are stashed, or that they have a motive to search, and they are so often loaded.

MtnCreek
February 29, 2012, 08:05 AM
It is a myth that most guns used in crimes are stolen from residences so the idea that they're preventing crime by getting people to bring guns from home is false.

Where do most come from?

Panzercat
February 29, 2012, 08:18 AM
Panzercat:
A national network had a short news episode with a convicted, experienced burglar, who went into a house with a pillow case.

Most go straight to the master bedroom.

Where else do most residents keep handguns and jewelry? This guy was out in less than five minutes with some valuable objects.

The really sad part is that vast numbers of adults are not aware that their young boys have figured out where handguns are stashed, or that they have a motive to search, and they are so often loaded.
Oh yeah, I'm not saying that an experienced burglar doesn't know where to look for valuables; I'm only questioning the premise insisting they target specific individuals solely for their firearms and that keeping a firearm in the home is any sort of major contributor in how illegal firearms are obtained. I'd wager to say that most guns obtained in a burglary were found while looking for other valuables and certainly not as statistically rampant as the argument being pushed on the op.

And your comment on kids is especially poignant for me since I've now got a 3wk old. I know for a fact that I was exploring every nook and cranny of our house growing up and have no doubt as to the inability to keep a firearm in the house a secret for long :)

Where do most come from?
The government, apparently :D

NavyLCDR
February 29, 2012, 10:54 AM
Where do most come from?

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.0/Gun-Facts-v6.0-screen.pdf

Printed page 26:
Fact: More than 70% of armed career criminals get their guns from "off-the-street sales" and "criminal acts" such as burglaries, and 71% of these firearms are stolen. Tracing these firearms will not lead to the criminals, as the trail stops at the last legal owner.

Printed page 30:
Fact: The majority of handguns in the possession of criminals are stolen, and not necessarily by the criminals in question. In fact, over 100,000 firearms are stolen in burglaries every year, and most of them likely enter the criminal market (i.e., sold or traded to criminals).

Panzercat
February 29, 2012, 02:47 PM
Only 100,000? No seriously. It sounds like a big number at first until you pair it against other statistics, and I'll even go out on a limb assuming its accurate. Here's a different take on where guns come from--



#1 Corrupt federally licensed gun dealers
Virtually every gun starts out as a legally manufactured product. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) points to three common ways guns move from legal distribution channels to the criminal market:

Case in Point: Kahr Arms of Worcester, MA lost 15 shipments of firearms between 1998-99, hired people with criminal histories to work inside its plant, and refused to install metal detectors. Kahr Arms guns have repeatedly turned up in Massachusetts gun assaults and homicides.

Other practices associated with corrupt dealers include: obliterating serial numbers; having a high number of crime gun traces within a short period; and selling multiple handguns to the same buyer repeatedly over the course of weeks, months, and sometimes years. Dealers have also been caught knowingly selling guns to felons.

Case in Point: One sting operation in Michigan captured a dealer on videotape admitting that what he was about to do—sell a gun to a straw purchaser—was “highly illegal.” He sold the gun anyway.

#2 Straw purchasing
Straw purchasing is the most common way criminals get guns, accounting for almost 50% of trafficking investigations. A straw purchaser is someone with a clean record who buys guns on behalf of someone legally prohibited from possessing guns. Straw purchasers are usually people hired by trafficking rings, or friends, relatives, spouses or girlfriends of prohibited purchasers.

Case in Point: The two Columbine High School shooters recruited friends to buy guns for them at Colorado gun shows. One of the buyers admitted she would not have bought the guns if she had been required to submit to a background check.

#3 Gun Shows and private gun sales
Gun shows have been called “Tupperware parties for criminals” because they attract large numbers of prohibited buyers. A loophole in federal law allows unlicensed or “private” sellers, many of whom work out of gun shows, to lawfully sell or transfer guns without conducting a criminal background check. According to former ATF spokesman Tom Mangan, in many cases, it’s simply a “cash and carry” transaction. Gun show dealers have been known to advertise to criminals with signs that read “no background checks required here.”

Case in Point: Charles Brown sold over one hundred semiautomatic pistols to felon James Bostic and his accomplices at a series of Ohio gun shows. The guns have been traced to dozens of shootings in New York.

Seriously. This whole notion that home robberies account for a major source of illegal gun traffic boarders on ridiculous, frankly.

wannabeagunsmith
February 29, 2012, 02:58 PM
There are new comments by me & the cop on the video

danez71
February 29, 2012, 08:02 PM
1) I dont like the 'gun weilding home owner' comment. Doesnt sound safe and responsible.

2) It does use tax dollars because we're paying the salary to stand around and collect guns.

3) I would rather their time be spent on catching the criminal than to take the object 'off the streets' because guns are often targeted by thiefs. By that logic, cars are target of thieves too... why dont they want to get rid of cars so criminals dont steal them... get in high speed chases.. and kill innocent people? Flawed logic at best.

JustinJ
February 29, 2012, 08:33 PM
(THEM): guns are often targeted in residential burglaries - which then can be used for illegal activity.

Isn't the logical conclusion of that arguement that all guns should be confiscated as the potential exists for all privately owned guns? Maybe bring that up and ask what their end goal is.

Owen Sparks
February 29, 2012, 09:14 PM
The entire premise of these “buy backs” is that guns in private hands results in more crime. This has been proven to be false. Guns in private hands deter crime. More guns on the street equals less crime.

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