February 11, 2004, 10:59 PM
hi, i was wondering if anybody made a double barrel shotgun pistol? like the one the guy had in the mummy returns i've seen them in a bunch of movies and was curious about what gauge they came in? anbody shot one? i bet recoil is very stiff:D
thanks for any info
February 11, 2004, 11:10 PM
I've wished for one of these for as long as ummm....ever :)
February 11, 2004, 11:13 PM
Not since 1934.
The Ithaca Auto and Burglar
By L. Neil Smith
Exclusive to The Libertarian Enterprise
The faded magazine ad haunts us across six long decades of stupidity and corruption:
"Here's the Ithaca Auto and Burglar gun, the so-called "Sawed Off Shot Gun" which holdup men fear because its load of sixteen buckshot spread over such a wide circle that a poor gun pointer, who would miss with a revolver or pistol ... is very sure to hit ... handy to carry in the pocket of an auto or in a holster ... Detective Harry Loose ... first induced the banks in and around Chicago to use it, then its use spread to sheriffs, police departments, paymasters, watchmen, express messengers, and it's a wonderful home protector. The U.S. Army demonstrated what American shotguns ... would do during the late war. This Ithaca Auto and Burglar Gun weighs about 1 1/4 pounds, it has 20 gauge 12 1/4" barrels, cylinder bore ... Price, including excise tax, $40.55."
The Ithaca Auto and Burglar was a veritable marvel in its time, a near-perfect blue steel and walnut "magic wand" of self-defense, against strong-arm artists and protection racketeers in the age in which it was introduced, ideal -- because of its light weight, moderate caliber, limited range, and short length -- for women, the elderly, and children who might require it, not only against house burglars, muggers, and the like, but against an abusive or incestuous parent.
If John Lennon had been carrying an Ithaca Auto and Burglar under his coat, the Fab Four would be selling live albums of their fifth reunion concert by now.
It is illegal -- or, more accurately and revealingly, placed beyond the reach of all but an economic and political elite -- and has been since 1934, because its 12 1/4" barrels are 5 3/4" shorter than federal law mandates, and its overall length -- roughly 20" -- is shy, by about the same amount, of the minimum length specified by a statute that should never have been passed or judicially upheld in a nation with something like a Second Amendment in its Constitution.
When I was a kid, my first lesson in politics arose from the fact that my home town, Fort Collins, Colorado, was "dry" -- which is to say that it was illegal to sell "adult beverages" within the city limits, and had been since Prohibition. What made it educational was that this imbecilic situation was maintained at the polls every year by a tacit coalition of self-righteously muttering church ladies like my own grandmother, and -- to begin with -- by bootleggers who plied their trade inside the town, and later on, by proprietors of bars and liquor stores that came to surround the "Choice City" in a tight ring.
If you understand that, you understand the politics of victim disarmament -- commonly and improperly known as "gun control". National politics of the 1930s were dominated by an unprecedented violence and corruption that sprang directly from trying to outlaw production, distribution, and consumption of ethanol. Every bit of the criminal activity -- gang-wars, drive-by shootings, summary search and seizure, asset forfeiture -- that we have come to associate in our times with drug prohibition arose, to begin with, in the "Roaring Twenties".
In those days, Al Capone was the most politically powerful individual in Chicago, in the Midwest, and possibly in the United States. He purchased city councilmen, state legislators, congressmen and senators the same way that I (the daddy of an electronic-age seven-year-old) purchase AA batteries. Others of his kind did as much of the same thing as they could. I leave it to you to figure out whose interests were really being represented in Congress in 1934.
The "weapon of choice" for creatures like Al Capone was hardly the Ithaca and Auto Burglar, or even the infamous Thompson Submachinegun, it was the lives of countless revolver-carrying cannon-fodder thugs, and the influence of crooked politicians.
Who was really protected by the Ithaca and Auto Burglar and the Tommy Gun? Shopkeepers, householders, and especially truck drivers whose vehicles were often stopped and stolen (just as Florida pleasure boats are today) to serve as disposable conveyances for illicit alcohol. One store proprietor with a "sawed off" scattergun could discourage three or four goons who'd come to collect. One truck driver with a "Chicago Piano" could run off a dozen highwaymen.
As surely as the Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed to disarm the militant non-nonviolent blacks who were threatening to overturn the political apple cart ...
As surely as the Brady Bill was passed because a certain variety of men -- well-represented in politics -- are mortally afraid to see women begin to arm themselves ...
As surely as Bill Bennett and Bill Clinton's rifle and magazine law was passed because -- in this dangerous age of multiple assailants, when a single individual's only chance against a gang is often firepower, and the ideal weapons of self-defense are semiautomatic rifles and pistols -- both right wing and left wing socialists couldn't bear the humiliation of Korean store owners successfully defending themselves against their clients during the LA riots ...
The Ithaca Auto and Burglar was stamped out because it threatened gangsters and hijackers who were the real constituency of the congressmen who outlawed it.
Now Daniel Patrick Moynihan crawls dripping out of his butt of Malmsey to attack expanding handgun bullets with a proposed 10,000 percent tax, exactly as he earlier attacked small caliber cartridges. Why? Could it be because they're effective for use by ordinary productive class people against the freelance thieves and muggers who, as a statist, Moynihan naturally identifies with?
Write Moynihan. Ask him. And while you're at it, ask the (expletive deleted) why he shouldn't spend his long-overdue retirement behind bars, for having tried to deprive every man, woman, and responsible child in this country of their unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon -- rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission.
Permission to redistribute this article is hereby granted by the author, provided it is reproduced unedited, in its entirety, and appropriate credit given.
L. Neil Smith's award-winning The Probability Broach opens a window onto a Libertarian civilization. More of his books (see The Webley Page: http://www.lneilsmith.com//) are available at bookstores everywhere, at http://www.amazon.com, at Laissez Faire Books, (800) 326-0996, or Frugal Muse Bookstore, (608) 833-8668. Neil will speak at the AZLP annual convention in Phoenix, 4/19/97.
February 11, 2004, 11:24 PM
I've seen new short double barrel 410ga/.45-70's at gun shows. Sticker price is usually under $200. I know nothing of the quality of these. (Also saw a 5 shot 410ga/.45-70 short barreled revolver.)
February 11, 2004, 11:49 PM
That thing looks like a busted lip waiting to happen. What's with the horn on the back?
February 12, 2004, 05:06 AM
The "horn" on the Ithaca is the prawl. It is there to better enable a one handed grip. The frame on the A&B was the same as used on their standard 20ga shotgun The Standard stock was inletted for curved tangs as was the A&B grip. Without the prawl the hand would ride up on the grip far enough for the action lever to slam into the web between the thumb and index finger. When a shotgun lever hit that and splits it open you will bleed a lot.
Ask me how I know and I'll show you the scar. A Rossi Coach Gun modified into an A&B and carry by a fellow officer back home had no protective "horn". Until that time I never saw the need for it either.
As for the original question of why there are no shotgun pistols. Unless you have a Federal Tax Stamp for an Any Other Weapon the barrels must be rifled. And before you ask why no one makes a 12 gauge with a screw in choke like the Thompson Center Contender, F-troop has this distinct dislike for any pistol with a rifled barrel over ½", screw in choke or not. Which is why S&W didn't make the X-frame a .600.
February 12, 2004, 06:16 AM
Does anyone else think it's funny that the ad talks about how the gun lets bad shots get hits, and then goes on to talk about how many cops are using it? Talk about yer truth in advertising!
February 12, 2004, 10:27 AM
and it's not even a NFA. :)
February 12, 2004, 11:25 AM
To avoid NFA* status the shotgun pistol would have to have a bore <= .500 and be rifled. That pretty much leaves .410's which pattern poorly.
* Actually I think its more ATF adminsitrative policy but it is based on their interpretation of the NFA. Others will probably know the legal history better than me.
February 12, 2004, 05:19 PM
That same policy is why Howdah pistols aren't readily available in the US.. imagine a double barrel .577 designed for close quarters combat with an angry tiger.
A "Howdah" is the saddle basket on the back of an elephant.. it was at one time common practice to hunt tigers from the back of an elephant.
A long time ago.. I fired a double barrel Stevens that was professionally sawed off and carried by a Union Dues collector for the UMW. He had lost his left arm just below the elbow in a mining accident. "Uncle Lije" carried his in a coat, barrels down and he wore a special leather cuff over the stump of his arm. He could draw, fire and reload with alarming speed. He used the stump of his left arm to hold the barrels down as he fired, then would crack the action and re-load with the barrels caught in the crook of his arm. Recoil was IMPRESSIVE to say the least.
Uncle Lije was likely a gangster, and a "heavy". But he was also a pretty cool old man who let an 8 year old kid shoot an old barn door in half with a sawed off.
I have no idea what happened to the gun, I'd bet its long since dissapeared down a well or river system in southern West Virginia.
February 12, 2004, 05:35 PM
You can get close to that, and do it legally. Several companies make 12gauge pistol-grip pump shotguns with a 12 inch tube. The Marshall's service uses them a lot. Since they are manufactured that way, it only takes a $5 NFA tax stamp to own one. I've seen some at the gun shows.
February 12, 2004, 06:08 PM
There's always the Thunder Five, too.
February 12, 2004, 09:23 PM
What about black powder?
A Duble barrel .58 cal or (gulp) .75 cal muzzle loader.
I'd take a shot with it!
is it legal despite/because of it being black powder?
February 12, 2004, 11:52 PM
thanks for all the info
hey. Hkmp5sd. what's recoil like with that .410 is it manageable? also is it a three finger grip?:)
February 13, 2004, 12:09 AM
I've seen something like the Ithica before. I was in Uzbekistan a few years back unloading "passengers" off of a transport from Afganistan. I think these guys were in the Army but over there you just weren't sure. They were wearing DCU's but looked more like taliban. Sticking out of one of their cargo pockets was a sawed off double barrel shotgun with hand made pistol grip. It was a real butcher job. I heard they would use it to breach doors. I guess it would work.
February 13, 2004, 12:24 AM
It's an "almost" three finger grip. The barrels have a lot of mass, so recoil isn't all that bad. I don't really like the rounded grip. They should have made it a little less curved and slightly longer. It makes a pretty good snake gun to carry while fishing.
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