Best tactical rifle choice


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precisionrifle14
February 29, 2012, 10:35 PM
In an earlier thread I narrowed my ar-15 choice to the Daniel Defense m4v7.
Now, I have some other options for my final choice. I would like any and all opinions, especially from owners of any of these rifles.
My options are:
DDm4v7
FN SCAR 17s
FN SCAR 16s
FN FS2000 Tactical
HK MR556
Kriss Super V Vector rifle
Springfield Scout M1A
Sig Sauer SIG556
Bushmaster ACR Enhanced
FN Herstal PS90 Tri-rail
FN PS90 Standard
HK USC .45acp

I know some of these rifles have different philosophies as to their employment, but I'm OK with that. I simply want to know which of these would be best in terms of:
1. reliability (what will it take to stop the rifle from firing, not break it)
2. accuracy (realistic accuracy, not 1/4moa groups, but all shots in brain stem at 25-50 yards)
3. ruggedness ( what will it take to break the rifle)
4. ergonomics (can I hand the rifle to a large guy, small guy, righty, or lefty and have them effectively use it?)
5. durability (if I couldn't change out parts, how long would the rifle go before absolutely failing)
6. weight (anything under 8-9lbs. is acceptable, but lighter is better)
7. aftermarket support (stock, handguard, grip, or rail space for different accessories)

I'm also getting either a Saiga 7.62 or a Kel tec sub 2k.


Sure I could always use google or something, and I already have, but I'm looking for real shooters experience with the rifles in question. Am I the only one who would much rather have actual real-world knowledge and info on the systems in question? Please don't read the title and say something about this thread being too general, that's why I narrowed it down with the numbered points.

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proven
February 29, 2012, 10:40 PM
"best" is a relative, and rather silly term. perhaps you should do more research on the platforms before asking. google is your friend and most, if not all, of the answers to your questions can be found quickly.

henschman
February 29, 2012, 10:58 PM
I think they are all more or less pretty good on items 1-6, but item 7 is what will set them apart. The AR-15 and the M1A are the only ones that really have any kind of aftermarket support and available spare parts. Of the two, the AR would be quite a bit cheaper to accumulate spare parts for.

precisionrifle14
February 29, 2012, 11:24 PM
I am really interested in #'s 1&3, any personal stories would be greatly appreciated.

valnar
February 29, 2012, 11:36 PM
Since you are opening the gates to all makes, models and price-points, have you considered the piston options of LWRC, PWS and POF? Or did you previously eliminate them? Just curious.

kwelz
February 29, 2012, 11:54 PM
Of what you listed I would go with the DDM4 or the SCAR16.

The DDM4 is probably the best choices since it leaves more money for ammo, mags, and training. In addition it will have a lot more aftermarket support and parts availability. Don't get me wrong. I like the SCAR, and even the ACR (if you replace the barrel) but I would not pick either as my first or even primary carbine.

I actually asked Larry Vickers this very question in December. His response was that right now there isn't anything "better enough" on the market than the AR. Sure each one has it's own benefits. And may or may not do something better than the AR. But when you factor in cost, parts availability, etc there just isn't a way to justify them.

And the DDM4 you mentioned is a great choice for an AR. I have had a couple of DD guns and they have been great.

Some of the others you mentioned were not bad but I will run down a couple of them.


FN SCAR 17s Great gun. But heavy and expensive. Lack of aftermarket parts. .308 round is overkill in a defensive carbine

FN SCAR 16s Great gun as well. Short rail and extending it adds a lot of weight. Heavy bolt has caused some very high quality optics to malfunction.

FN FS2000 Tactical Parts can be hard to get but an interesting design. Bullpup design has some inherent flaws. Trigger is... Well not that nice.

HK MR556 An abortion that makes nobody happy. Took away most of the nice things about the HK416. Heavy, non chrome lined barrel. Just different enough from a normal AR to make parts an issue.

Kriss Super V Vector riflePistol caliber weapon in a rifle sized body. It looks cool but I would stick with something using a better cartridge like 5.56 in a more proven platform.

Springfield Scout M1A Proven over the years. But heavy and in the end it is essentially a 1930s design with a few modifications. Nothing wrong with this but it isn't that practical. Saw a guy try to run one in a Carbine class. Lasted about an hour before he borrowed an AR. Also see my comments about .308 in the SCAR above

Sig Sauer SIG556 Not terrible but once again Hard to get parts and a lot heavier than it looks. Buddy of mine replaced his with a Noveske N4 for everyday use.


Bushmaster ACR Enhanced Bushmaster Borked this one up the moment they got it. I am getting one as a project gun but it is simply that. A project. The barrel is terrible and they added a couple pounds that never needed to be there.

FN Herstal PS90 Tri-rail
FN PS90 Standard Nice if you SBR them but the round is a bit anemic compared to 5.56 and if you have large hands you will have trouble with the stock on this.

HK USC .45acp Expensive and takes a lot of money to get them up to par. Also shoots a pistol caliber in a rifle package.

precisionrifle14
March 1, 2012, 12:01 AM
Since you are opening the gates to all makes, models and price-points, have you considered the piston options of LWRC, PWS and POF? Or did you previously eliminate them? Just curious.
I wasn't even thinking, yes I've seen some piston rifles out there.
Which of the following piston ar-15's do you think would be best in terms of my above criteria?
HK MR556
LWRC M6A2 Carbine
LWRC M6A2 SPR
LWRC M6A3
Sig Sauer SIG516

CSestp
March 1, 2012, 12:07 AM
RPG-7

JHenry
March 1, 2012, 12:46 AM
Scar-17 is my dream gun lol

Dr.Rob
March 1, 2012, 04:33 AM
I'd wipe the Kriss and the P90 off for limited range and utility.

valnar
March 1, 2012, 06:56 AM
I wasn't even thinking, yes I've seen some piston rifles out there.
Which of the following piston ar-15's do you think would be best in terms of my above criteria?

I hear LWRC makes a nice gun, but google some reviews of the PWS MK116 (http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=173&idcategory=15). Like most AR designs, except for the obvious proprietary piston, I believe it passes all your tests. You can step up to the MK2 (http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=25) series if you want a .308.

precisionrifle14
March 1, 2012, 09:25 PM
I hear LWRC makes a nice gun, but google some reviews of the PWS MK116 (http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=173&idcategory=15). Like most AR designs, except for the obvious proprietary piston, I believe it passes all your tests. You can step up to the MK2 (http://primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=25) series if you want a .308.
Could the LWRC stand up to the DDM4 torture test

precisionrifle14
March 1, 2012, 09:53 PM
Are Wilson Combat, ADCOR, PARA USA, or Anderson Manufacturing any good?

kwelz
March 1, 2012, 10:16 PM
Are Wilson Combat, ADCOR, PARA USA, or Anderson Manufacturing any good?

No.

Countryboy7
March 1, 2012, 10:45 PM
The ps90's bullet just seems like a fancy designed 22 mag bullet to me. Lol I'm sure it's equivalent in power as the 22 mag. So forget it

35 Whelen
March 1, 2012, 11:12 PM
You've opened yourself to everyones opinion as it's highly unlikely anyone here has tried ALL the rifles. Rather than try to find one that will do any and everything, why don't you just buy something and try it out...like a cheap, run of the mill AR. If you don't like it, you can sell it and move on.

I'm a new AR owner and though I really don't care for them or tacti-cool rifles in general, (I built one because it was soooo cheap) they appear to be pretty close to a one size fits all rifle. I've fired a couple of High Power matches with mine and it's been pretty much reliable so long as I keep it oiled a little.

About the same time I bought a Mini-14 to keep around here for stray dogs and chicken eating coyotes. Mine, a 581 Series has been a bit more reliable (as in 100% feeding and ejecting) than my AR and I've never put a drop of oil anywhere in it. Disassembling one makes it easy to understand why they're so reliable and rugged. After bedding it and fire lapping the barrel I tried it this evening and was rewarded with a 1" 5-shot group using handloadeds with ordinary Prvi 62 gr. FMJBT bullets. I know you didn't ask about a Mini, but it's pretty much the same as an M1A...just smaller.

I have to agree about the silly 5.7 cartridge. It really is on just about the same power level and a 22 magnum rimfire.

.308 round is overkill in a defensive carbine

What's "overkill"? Is it possible to "over-eliminate" a threat? I've never read an account of an individual defending themselves when they stated "I wish I'd have used a less powerful cartridge.".

35W

henschman
March 2, 2012, 08:01 AM
I agree with eliminating the pistol-caliber choices. The only thing I would ever want a 5.7x28 for is a very short barreled carbine that is strictly for close quarters. And the only thing I would want a .45 ACP for is a pistol or a short submachine gun.

I agree with 35 Whelen... just get a good AR-15 and start shooting. Take it to an Appleseed, take it to a carbine course, shoot a little 3-gun with it... and as you get more experience with it you will start to know more what you want, and can customize it to fit your preferences. The nice thing about an AR is that you can set it up in all sorts of different configurations, and can have different uppers for different roles. It would be the perfect rifle for someone like you, who doesn't seem to know exactly what he wants in a rifle!

As for which ones could pass DD's torture test, really a DD doesn't have any magic properties... they are one of several companies who make a high quality AR that meets or exceeds the mil specs. I would think any of the rifles that have similar QC and features, like M4 feed ramps, chrome lined barrel, MPI and HPT barrel and bolt, and staked gas key would be every bit as reliable. So if that level of reliability is your goal, you might widen your search to include Noveske, Colt, BCM, PSA, and Spike's, to name a few.

If that is your standard for reliability (which is as good as any), it would also be met or exceeded by just about any AK, and by just about any M-14 or FAL platform with good GI parts. Also, the tests and reviews I have seen seem to show that the SCAR is at least as reliable as a good AR.

I can't really speak as to any of the others.

briansmithwins
March 2, 2012, 08:25 AM
7.62 NATO is overkill in a defensive* rifle.*

Sure, that .30 caliber has more energy than 5.56 NATO but that power comes at the expense of a heavier, longer weapon (which can be a bad thing in and of itself) and increased recoil.*

Increased recoil is bad because it increases the time between shots. Maybe you missed with the first shot or maybe there was more than one had guy, but sometimes you need to shoot rapidly and 7.62x51 is not comdusive to that.*

Humans are not bears or buffalo. Locally, the people that are shot by the police with their 5.56 rifles loaded with thin jacked HP bullets die, and almost always die from one round being fired into the head or torso.*

It would be great to get the power of 7.62 NATO in a weapon with the size of a AR and the recoil of a 9mmP subgun but it can't be done. Light weight, recoil, power: pick any two.*

BSW*

*Weapon for killing men within 200 yards.

gotigers
March 2, 2012, 09:19 AM
I would go with a good name AR, 16", midlength, FF tube, Battle comp, Eotech or Aimpoint.

Daniel Defense
Novske
LaRue
etc.

tarosean
March 2, 2012, 10:56 AM
What's "overkill"? Is it possible to "over-eliminate" a threat?

To me, the definition of Overkill would be the possibility that a round could end up in a neighbors home.

Tirod
March 2, 2012, 11:29 AM
1. reliability (what will it take to stop the rifle from firing, not break it)
Magazines, ammo, and operator error are #1,2,3 in order of making a rifle malfunction.
2. accuracy (realistic accuracy, not 1/4moa groups, but all shots in brain stem at 25-50 yards)
Most tactical rifles are 2MOA - a ten inch circle at 500m, which is 1/2 the size of a lethal kill zone.
3. ruggedness ( what will it take to break the rifle)
Varies a bit, but most guns made for combat use can hoist a soldier with gear with two men lifting him to a window. Beyond that - any will break.
4. ergonomics (can I hand the rifle to a large guy, small guy, righty, or lefty and have them effectively use it?)
Varies - an adjustable stock helps, even a small guy can shoot a fixed stock rifle accurately. Wearing a chest plate carrier and shooting square, long rifles have a disadvantage.
5. durability (if I couldn't change out parts, how long would the rifle go before absolutely failing)
Most combat rifles will shoot 8-10 combat loads without cleaning, and have a service life of 25,000 to 50,000 rounds. Full auto fire reduces that considerably.
6. weight (anything under 8-9lbs. is acceptable, but lighter is better)
Depends on what accessories are added, whether it has a heavy target barrel, etc.
7. aftermarket support (stock, handguard, grip, or rail space for different accessories)
Only the most popular that have been on the market long enough to generate demand. In other words, all of these except the M1A are a huge step below the AR15.

The issue is market demand and who's selling proprietary parts. HK's, FN's etc are generally a single source contract situation. You basically buy it the way it is and use it. Aside from clamping gear on picitinny rails - and all that gear is interchangeable - the existence of alternate parts to modify a gun is largely based on it's popularity.

HK91 custom parts were notoriously hard to get, even factory in the day. It was a situation of going to a gun show and finding maybe two tables in 1,000 with reasonably priced parts, like a claw mount or Euro handguard. The newer and more proprietary the design, the less likely the industry has bothered to tool up. Most of what you see is adapted AR parts - a check of what's available for the AK shows that. Except for a rail mount on the gas block, it's just AR parts worked over. Shotguns, too.

If there is a specific reason to open the floodgates and consider just any tactical gun offered out there, prioritize it's importance. Some overwork where the piston is located, or make much about a folding stock, or that it has a charging handle that changes sides. In most cases, it has really nothing to do with what the gun is meant to do - launch a projectile downrange in a reasonably accurate manner at a target.

If there's some confusion, step back and consider: What distances are going to be shot at - realistiically, 85-90% of the time, and what target? Match the cartridge FIRST, then move on to which platform offers the most cost effective solution, in the closest configuration that meets the task.

AR is likely it - there are alternative cartridges, and there's a plethora of parts.

jem375
March 2, 2012, 11:40 AM
7.62 NATO is overkill in a defensive* rifle.*

Sure, that .30 caliber has more energy than 5.56 NATO but that power comes at the expense of a heavier, longer weapon (which can be a bad thing in and of itself) and increased recoil.*

Increased recoil is bad because it increases the time between shots. Maybe you missed with the first shot or maybe there was more than one had guy, but sometimes you need to shoot rapidly and 7.62x51 is not comdusive to that.*

Humans are not bears or buffalo. Locally, the people that are shot by the police with their 5.56 rifles loaded with thin jacked HP bullets die, and almost always die from one round being fired into the head or torso.*

It would be great to get the power of 7.62 NATO in a weapon with the size of a AR and the recoil of a 9mmP subgun but it can't be done. Light weight, recoil, power: pick any two.*

BSW*

*Weapon for killing men within 200 yards.
Yeah, it's a wonder we got through WW2 and the Korean War with those M1 Garands and that 30-06 caliber... lol... and the M1A is a great defensive rifle also...

HKGuns
March 2, 2012, 11:46 AM
HK MR556 An abortion that makes nobody happy. Took away most of the nice things about the HK416. Heavy, non chrome lined barrel. Just different enough from a normal AR to make parts an issue.

Say what? It is nearly identical to the HK416, you don't know what you are talking about.

Here, educate yourself with pictures of all the "nice" things HK took away between the two rifles.:banghead:

Click (http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk416-hk417-hq/148788-comparison-mr556-hk416-pics.html)

35 Whelen
March 2, 2012, 11:53 AM
Yeah, it's a wonder we got through WW2 and the Korean War with those M1 Garands and that 30-06 caliber... lol... and the M1A is a great defensive rifle also...
Now THAT'S funny!!! And also true!!!

35W

briansmithwins
March 2, 2012, 11:55 AM
Yeah, it's a wonder we got through WW2 and the Korean War with those M1 Garands and that 30-06 caliber... lol... and the M1A is a great defensive rifle also...

It's a good thing we had the Garand because Army Ordnance completely missed the boat in developing a GPMG.

Army Ordnance's addiction to machined steel and .30-06 killing power also got out guys killed in Viet-Nam when unsuitable M14s were withdrawn and the M16 was rushed into service w/o having the bugs worked out.

If full power battle rifles are of military utility then please name one country that's developed and adopted one since 1970. Give away G3's and FAL's don't count.

BSW

jem375
March 2, 2012, 12:16 PM
It's a good thing we had the Garand because Army Ordnance completely missed the boat in developing a GPMG.

Army Ordnance's addiction to machined steel and .30-06 killing power also got out guys killed in Viet-Nam when unsuitable M14s were withdrawn and the M16 was rushed into service w/o having the bugs worked out.

If full power battle rifles are of military utility then please name one country that's developed and adopted one since 1970. Give away G3's and FAL's don't count.

BSW
The only reason the M14's were put out of service in the Vietnam War was more and lighter ammo in the 5.56.. 3 shot bursts would have solved the problem, and the Marines didn't want the 5.56, they wanted the M14 back.... later when the problems with the M16 were solved because of the ammo used , it worked out... but, I think the boys in the mountains over in Afghanistan would like to have the M14's for longer distance shooting in the mountains...

JustinJ
March 2, 2012, 12:38 PM
I know some of these rifles have different philosophies as to their employment, but I'm OK with that. I simply want to know which of these would be best in terms of:
1. reliability (what will it take to stop the rifle from firing, not break it)
2. accuracy (realistic accuracy, not 1/4moa groups, but all shots in brain stem at 25-50 yards)
3. ruggedness ( what will it take to break the rifle)
4. ergonomics (can I hand the rifle to a large guy, small guy, righty, or lefty and have them effectively use it?)
5. durability (if I couldn't change out parts, how long would the rifle go before absolutely failing)
6. weight (anything under 8-9lbs. is acceptable, but lighter is better)
7. aftermarket support (stock, handguard, grip, or rail space for different accessories)

Aresenal AK74 with MI quad rail and side scope rail. If you want an adjustable stock you can have it. If you want a folding stock you can have it. It is number one in categories 1, 3 and 5, which are really the most important. There are rifles with better ergonomics but in a realistic scenario the AKs are plenty adequate. Accuracy more than meets your requirements. Weight is about average and aftermarket parts are fair and continuing to grow.

Another option would be a Steyr AUG A3.

From you list i'd probably go with the SCAR.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 2, 2012, 12:42 PM
The ps90's bullet just seems like a fancy designed 22 mag bullet to me. Lol I'm sure it's equivalent in power as the 22 mag. So forget it

Words of the ignorant. 5.7 x 28 is as powerful as 9mm and will do the job just as good.

C-grunt
March 2, 2012, 01:34 PM
Yeah, it's a wonder we got through WW2 and the Korean War with those M1 Garands and that 30-06 caliber... lol... and the M1A is a great defensive rifle also...


We also won the Revolutionary War with muzzle loaders. That doesn't make it the ideal weapon today as lessons from combat evolve the weapons. The M1 Garand was arguably the best rifle of its time. But that time was a long time ago and combat weapons have progressed since then. I do believe the M1A is a good defensive weapon of you can handle the weight and recoil.

JustinJ
March 2, 2012, 02:21 PM
MIA, FAL, AR10, G3, SCAR H seem like very poor defensive weapons, IMO. I'd suggest shooting one indoors if you don't agree. Just for fun use a 16" or shorter barrel and do it in the dark. Get back to use when you regain hearing and sight.

unit91
March 2, 2012, 04:44 PM
M1A is a good defensive weapon of you can handle the weight and recoil

GREAT point about any weapon. To this I would also add think of your family situation, where applicable. I love my AK/Ultimak/EOTech setup but it's WAY too front-heavy for my wife. Keeping a spare AR around is the way to go for us in case some peckerwood breaks in, gets a lucky shot off, and the Mrs has to fight after I'm dead.

precisionrifle14
March 2, 2012, 06:36 PM
Guys can we just cut of the whole full power battle rifle argument? come on now...
I'm still looking for anyone to answer the key points about an LWRC M6A2 piston rifle with 16" barrel. Any real life stories which can attest to thee weapons reliability would be great. Not something you 'think' a rifle can do, but something you have personally seen or done.

P.S. Thanks for the advice so far, I'll avoid the pistol calibers and stick to the real guns. :neener:

JustinJ
March 2, 2012, 07:14 PM
Don't be so quick to dismiss pistol caliber. Firing any gun(minus silencer) inside a home can be disorienting, deafening, blinding and even set off a smoke alarm but this is much less so with pistol calibers. I have a HK USC to UMP conversion that i have no doubt would make an extremely effective home defense weapon with far less muzzle blast than a 5.56. A good hollowpoint .45, ecspecially +P, with the accuracy of a rifle will provide one with an excellent home defense weapon.

LWRC experiences are probably limited due to the gun's cost.

Squeaky Wheel
March 2, 2012, 10:30 PM
It might be best to define the parameters of what "battle" means for you. In one situation, an AK might be best; perhaps an AR in some other scenario; M1A might be best for something else. This may sound evasive, but really "it depends". In most of these kinds of decisions, you're often making tradeoffs. If your expected battle scenarios are CQ, I wouldn't be so quick about ruling out pistol calibers. In my opinion, an M-1 Carbine makes a very nice "battle" rifle (I realize it's "just" a carbine!), if your expected battles are CQ.

precisionrifle14
March 3, 2012, 12:13 PM
It might be best to define the parameters of what "battle" means for you. In one situation, an AK might be best; perhaps an AR in some other scenario; M1A might be best for something else. This may sound evasive, but really "it depends". In most of these kinds of decisions, you're often making tradeoffs. If your expected battle scenarios are CQ, I wouldn't be so quick about ruling out pistol calibers. In my opinion, an M-1 Carbine makes a very nice "battle" rifle (I realize it's "just" a carbine!), if your expected battles are CQ.
This would be a rifle that I could keep by the bed for home defense, throw it in the truck in case something were to happen, and grab it on the way out of my house in a WROL/SHTF situation without worrying about the gun jamming because I forgot the cleaning kit and dropped the gun in the dirt.

P.S. the local police department here is very very small, and they are slightly unequipped to handle anything much past a crazy guy with a handgun. Any scenario with multiple hostiles and long guns, and they wouldn't have the proper equipment at hand to handle that situation. 1 or 2 out of all of the police might have patrol rifle's, and there's no telling where they'll be when something happens. If something were to happen anywhere near my residence, I wouldn't want to solely trust the police to have the right gear.

valnar
March 3, 2012, 12:22 PM
Any legal or semi-legal urban defense situation will happen within 50 yards or less, so I'd leave out the .308 options - not to mention their massive penetration power for nearby houses or bystanders.

At MOST, I would pick a .30-30 or 7.62x39 option (AK47 or Vz.58), but you'd probably be best served by an AR or semi-auto pistol caliber carbine.

Lee D
March 3, 2012, 02:13 PM
like it was mentioned before, it all depends on your situation. if i lived in town, my choice gun wouldnt be the Socom16, id probably switch over to one of my Mini14s due to the overpenetration the .308 is notorious for. but, since i live in the middle of nowhere i like big time firepower. here in rural Iowa we have meth freaks that target farms to steal anhydrous and will run you down with a car to get away. scary stuff

Sam1911
March 3, 2012, 02:37 PM
here in rural Iowa we have meth freaks that target farms to steal anhydrous and will run you down with a car to get away. scary stuff


Seems to me the risk presented by someone trying to run you down with a car while fleeing the scene of a theft is not best met by firepower, but by not being in the road.

Rifles don't STOP cars in their tracks, and firing any weapon at someone attempting to flee is not lawful. Make sure you understand what constitutes lawful "self-defense," and what does not.

Ar180shooter
March 3, 2012, 03:01 PM
What about the Sig 551-A1?

Lee D
March 3, 2012, 04:11 PM
"Seems to me the risk presented by someone trying to run you down with a car while fleeing the scene of a theft is not best met by firepower, but by not being in the road."


im not talking about in the roads at all....these crazy SOBs pulled this stunt on a farmer checking on his tanks in the field after seeing headlights at 2 am. they drove thru a fenceline, turned around and made 2nd pass at him! i wasnt saying a .308 would stop a car, but if it was me, i wouldnt have hesitated to punch the guys clock thru the windshield. something i wouldnt wanna trust a .223 to do.

briansmithwins
March 3, 2012, 04:33 PM
What about the Sig 551-A1?

Not cheap for a real one. The closest way I know to get one is buy a Sig 556 rifle upper and put it on one of these: http://www.cogunsales.com/index.php/Swiss-Made/SIG-550/551-Lower-Receiver-w/Swiss-Internals/flypage.pbv.v1.tpl.html

Bring your Swiss bank account.

BSW

precisionrifle14
March 3, 2012, 05:00 PM
Not cheap for a real one. The closest way I know to get one is buy a Sig 556 rifle upper and put it on one of these: http://www.cogunsales.com/index.php/Swiss-Made/SIG-550/551-Lower-Receiver-w/Swiss-Internals/flypage.pbv.v1.tpl.html

Bring your Swiss bank account.

BSW
The Sig 551-A1 is an option if it would out-perform the other options I listed.

It's not that expensive compared to the other rifles I listed, I found one online for $1500.

Ar180shooter
March 3, 2012, 05:04 PM
Not cheap for a real one. The closest way I know to get one is buy a Sig 556 rifle upper and put it on one of these: http://www.cogunsales.com/index.php/Swiss-Made/SIG-550/551-Lower-Receiver-w/Swiss-Internals/flypage.pbv.v1.tpl.html

Bring your Swiss bank account.

BSW
Not referring to the Swiss made Sig 55X series of rifles, but the new American made ones.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/07/12/new-sig-sig551a1/

I've heard they're a great improvement over the Sig Sauer 556 rifles.

The only thing lacking would be aftermarket support, but that's the case for pretty much everything that isn't an AR/AK/M1A.

Sam1911
March 3, 2012, 05:26 PM
The Sig 551-A1 is an option if it would out-perform the other options I listed.


"Outperform?" How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Can YOU shoot beyond the speed and accuracy of either platform? Will YOU use one in conditions that would stop another rifle from functioning? Will YOU run one so many rounds between cleanings that it ceases to function (Google "Filthy 14" to see what an AR-15 can do...so far). Will YOU inflict damage to it that will destroy one but not another?

This thread reads like gear-head idolatry, for lack of willingness to use a less-THR-appropriate (but more apt) term.

You aren't picking a WIFE, you're picking a rifle. Just pick one. Smart money says you should choose one that will allow you the budget to buy what you REALLY need -- which is ammo, training, and range time. Then go shoot it until you wear it out. By the time you're done with that, you won't need so much advice. ;)

Sheepdog1968
March 3, 2012, 05:35 PM
What it sounds like is you want a reliable rifle that goes bang every time you pull the trigger. There is something to be said for the AK and the round is hard hitting. You wont need many midifications (ghost ring on rear and a mount to attach a light). In fact the less you do the better. There are some companies out there that sell reliable packages. Id go that direction based on OP.

Personally, as long as it is reliable and you are well trained to use it, just about any weapon will do.

precisionrifle14
March 3, 2012, 05:42 PM
"Outperform?" How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Can YOU shoot beyond the speed and accuracy of either platform? Will YOU use one in conditions that would stop another rifle from functioning? Will YOU run one so many rounds between cleanings that it ceases to function (Google "Filthy 14" to see what an AR-15 can do...so far). Will YOU inflict damage to it that will destroy one but not another?

This thread reads like gear-head idolatry, for lack of willingness to use a less-THR-appropriate (but more apt) term.

You aren't picking a WIFE, you're picking a rifle. Just pick one. Smart money says you should choose one that will allow you the budget to buy what you REALLY need -- which is ammo, training, and range time. Then go shoot it until you wear it out. By the time you're done with that, you won't need so much advice. ;)
I'm trying to find a rifle for everything from WROL/SHTF to home defense to truck gun, and then anything else I want to do with it. If the rifle is used in WROL/SHTF, then I won't necessarily have any means of cleaning the rifle at all, or anything to lube it with either. I know that I may be over-doing it here, but I just want to be sure that I get the right gun the first time. Considering it's expected uses, the rifle will take a hard beating, no question about it. I don't want to be defending myself/family and have my rifle jam or have a part break because I wasn't able to maintain the rifle. Sorry if I'm going overboard, I'm one of those people who shops around and asks lots of questions. I guess it's the thought of trusting the rifle to keep me and my family safe that's getting to me. ;)

The wife comment was pretty funny.


I know I'm doing it again, but is the 551-A1 any good, I haven't heard anything about it anywhere.

matty-vb
March 3, 2012, 05:49 PM
I'm trying to find a rifle for everything from WROL/SHTF to home defense to truck gun, and then anything else I want to do with it.

for the money you seem willing to spend you could get a solid RRA and a solid 870 and a solid glock and cover just about every base you are wanting to cover.....

Lee D
March 3, 2012, 06:26 PM
Colts are now selling at WalMart for a little over 1000. if an AR is your choice, it doesnt get much better than that

precisionrifle14
March 3, 2012, 06:31 PM
I've already got a Glock 22, and I'm getting an 870 with this rifle as well, but this is going to be my main weapon. This would be the go to rifle for any situation. The block is for when/if this failed. (doesn't mean I'm willing to have a gun that could fail from something little) The 870 is going to be used in a much more specialized role as shotgun shells are quite heavy and take up lots of space. I'll be using the different types of specialized ammunition available for the 12ga. to make the whole package even more rounded out. My only problem is the rifle. I can't decide, and I don't have any experience with any of the platforms, which is why I came here. :)

I 'm also considering getting a Kel-tec sub 2000 instead of the Saiga. That would allow me to interchange mags between my Glock and the sub 2k.

I'm also going to assemble a vest to carry everything, as well as another, lighter alternative bag.

precisionrifle14
March 3, 2012, 06:34 PM
Colts are now selling at WalMart for a little over 1000. if an AR is your choice, it doesnt get much better than that
I saw a video in which an HK416 and a Colt were both put through the "over the beach" test. The HK survived parts 1&2, but the Colt exploded during part 1. I just figured the colt wasn't very rugged or reliable

C-grunt
March 3, 2012, 06:39 PM
I'm trying to find a rifle for everything from WROL/SHTF to home defense to truck gun, and then anything else I want to do with it. If the rifle is used in WROL/SHTF, then I won't necessarily have any means of cleaning the rifle at all, or anything to lube it with either. I know that I may be over-doing it here, but I just want to be sure that I get the right gun the first time. Considering it's expected uses, the rifle will take a hard beating, no question about it. I don't want to be defending myself/family and have my rifle jam or have a part break because I wasn't able to maintain the rifle. Sorry if I'm going overboard, I'm one of those people who shops around and asks lots of questions. I guess it's the thought of trusting the rifle to keep me and my family safe that's getting to me. ;)

The wife comment was pretty funny.


I know I'm doing it again, but is the 551-A1 any good, I haven't heard anything about it anywhere.
Cleaning an AR or AK to be reliable just takes a rag and lube. In a end of the world situation lube can be found easily in the form of motor oil.

browningguy
March 3, 2012, 06:41 PM
All of the ones you list will meet all the requirments except number 7, which shouldn't matter anyway.

Some people may not like pistol caliber carbines but the HK USC will certainly make head shots out to 50 yards, mine does it every time I take it out to the range. I have shot every kind of crappie ammo through mine with never a problem, ergon0mics are good, the weight is reasonable, recoil is reasonable, it has enough rail space for a light.

Downsides for some people are cost, and magazines are expensive and hard to find in stock. But it is a superb carbine.

FourTeeFive
March 3, 2012, 06:45 PM
Your list to me sums up a higher-quality AK. My vote would be for a Robinson Arms VEPR K 7.62X39. Next would be a Krebs or Tromix 7.62X39 AK.

Ar180shooter
March 3, 2012, 07:42 PM
I'm trying to find a rifle for everything from WROL/SHTF to home defense to truck gun, and then anything else I want to do with it. If the rifle is used in WROL/SHTF, then I won't necessarily have any means of cleaning the rifle at all, or anything to lube it with either. I know that I may be over-doing it here, but I just want to be sure that I get the right gun the first time. Considering it's expected uses, the rifle will take a hard beating, no question about it. I don't want to be defending myself/family and have my rifle jam or have a part break because I wasn't able to maintain the rifle. Sorry if I'm going overboard, I'm one of those people who shops around and asks lots of questions. I guess it's the thought of trusting the rifle to keep me and my family safe that's getting to me. ;)

The wife comment was pretty funny.


I know I'm doing it again, but is the 551-A1 any good, I haven't heard anything about it anywhere.
I've heard that they're much better than the Sig Sauer 556, and even if it's only half the gun that its Swiss counterpart is, it's well worth it.

Sam1911
March 3, 2012, 07:50 PM
I'm trying to find a rifle for everything from WROL/SHTF to home defense to truck gun, and then anything else I want to do with it.If you're doing this right, you'll shoot this gun to pieces long before the world ends or any poo gets flung. Every choice on your list is far better than you, personally, will ever need it to be.

Here's an exercise: Go read Marcus Luttrell's Lone Survivor (http://www.amazon.com/Lone-Survivor-Eyewitness-Account-Operation/dp/0316044695/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330816937&sr=8-1), about his experiences in Operation Redwing. He was shooting an Mark 12 Mod 1 SPR. I believe another of his teammates was as well. The other two carried M4s. If you can stomach it, read what he lived through (and what his comrades did not). Their rifles did not let them down, even through multiple falls down rock escarpments, RPG explosions at devastatingly close range, and abuse the likes of which no piece of equipment -- let alone human being -- should ever be asked to withstand.

I would not have survived the first minute of their engagement. You would not, either. (Heck, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You'd have lasted two minutes. You're probably younger and tougher than me.) Their rifles did.

If the rifle is used in WROL/SHTF, then I won't necessarily have any means of cleaning the rifle at all, or anything to lube it with either.Patently untrue, as noted above. Anyone who depends on their weapon finds a way to clean and maintain it. It isn't rocket surgery. Unless when the "balloon goes up" it evaporates all the cloth and oily substances in the world -- you'll be able to clean your gun.

I know that I may be over-doing it here, but I just want to be sure that I get the right gun the first time.The RIGHT gun? There is no "RIGHT" gun. There is only sufficient to the task at hand, or not so. Considering the task you have any reason to believe you'll face, any of them would be. Something universal and easy to get parts for (hint, hint) would be plenty more than sufficient.

Considering it's expected uses, the rifle will take a hard beating, no question about it. Oh really? You're a civilian in the US of A. The odds that you'll ever have to depend on ANY gun to even save your life ONCE are pretty crazy scant. Your rifle will be called upon to accompany you to the range (hopefully often) and then you will come home and clean it and put it away. Maybe -- just maybe -- it will be called on to survive through a two or three day training class from time to time, living on nothing more than a squirt of oil every 1,000 rounds or so. Heck, if you're abnormally clumsy, you might just happen to trip and fall on it once. Any of these will live up to that kind of a "hard beating." If you choose to use it as a "truck gun" and that means leaving it behind the seat for months on end, well, yeah, it will survive that too. (And probably will survive being stolen, eventually recovered in a drug bust or gang shooting, and then waiting several years in a police evidence locker before being sent to the shredder. i.e. -- not a fan of the "truck gun" idea.)

I don't want to be defending myself/family and have my rifle jam or have a part break because I wasn't able to maintain the rifle.Get yourself something, shoot it a lot, learn what makes it tick and what bogs it down. Learn what spare parts you should have on hand. Learn how to maintain it under any circumstances. And then STOP fretting over it and shoot, shoot, shoot!

Learning to shoot up to your rifle's potential -- to really run that gun -- is much more critical than nitpicking between top-dollar boutique guns.

As certain top-level trainers are occasionally known to say, (paraphrasing) "If you're still concerned with what gear, what caliber, what rifle... you just aren't ready for this. Come back when you're over all that b.s. and you're ready to shoot."

LAK
March 3, 2012, 08:21 PM
Unless you really want an AR-15 style gun I would scratch all of them and go with the Saiga, 7.62x39 with the 16" barrel.

You are not going to find any consensus on the better AR-15s. The main thing is to keep them cleaned and properly lubed.

briansmithwinsIt's a good thing we had the Garand because Army Ordnance completely missed the boat in developing a GPMG.

Army Ordnance's addiction to machined steel and .30-06 killing power also got out guys killed in Viet-Nam when unsuitable M14s were withdrawn and the M16 was rushed into service w/o having the bugs worked out.

If full power battle rifles are of military utility then please name one country that's developed and adopted one since 1970. Give away G3's and FAL's don't count.
The M16 was developed for the Air Force - not the Army, not the Marine Corp - and was not intended as a replacement for the battle rifle.

The M16A1 did not have any bugs per se; rather the manual of arms and training did not adequately (if at all) address proper care and cleaning.

One reason no new battle rifles have been "developed" is that there are plenty of good designs on the shelf that pre-date the 70s. The smallbore rifles were universally accepted until we were involved in a protracted war in Iraq and Afghanistan and it's deficiences on the wide open expanses of the battlefield became apparent again.

proven
March 3, 2012, 08:32 PM
well said, sam1911. doing research to find an ideal platform is fine, but at some point you just have to choose and learn to shoot it.

op, your experience sounds lacking, and your fantasy shtf scenario is a bit misguided. you'd be best served to choose a reliable, common platform and learn to run it well. the ddm4 would be a great start. after you run through a few cases of ammo, you'll be in a better position to decide what is and isn't working for you. you can't just read a bunch of stuff on the internet and magically choose the be all end all rifle.

CountryUgly
March 3, 2012, 08:38 PM
I have a resolution to this .............buy an AK47 it covers all but #2 but with a lilttle TLC that can be taken care of.

C-grunt
March 3, 2012, 08:48 PM
One reason no new battle rifles have been "developed" is that there are plenty of good designs on the shelf that pre-date the 70s. The smallbore rifles were universally accepted until we were involved in a protracted war in Iraq and Afghanistan and it's deficiences on the wide open expanses of the battlefield became apparent again.

What engagements have you been involved in where the M16/M4 has failed to deliver rounds on target effectively. I personally and several people I know have had good results out to and beyond 400 meters.

dprice3844444
March 3, 2012, 08:52 PM
The M16A1 did not have any bugs per se; rather the manual of arms and training did not adequately (if at all) address proper care and cleaning.



with the exception of using a high fouling powder instead of ball powder, and not chrome lining the barrel/chamber. yea,no problem

C-grunt
March 3, 2012, 09:02 PM
with the exception of using a high fouling powder instead of ball powder, and not chrome lining the barrel/chamber. yea,no problem
That was the M16. The M16A1 was the fixed version.

Squeaky Wheel
March 3, 2012, 09:27 PM
won't necessarily have any means of cleaning the rifle at all, or anything to lube it with either

In my opinion, this narrows things down quite a bit. Also, in my opinion, it would rule out any AR (I'm liable to catch hell for this, but it's my opinion).

Recently, my son and I went to watch an IDPA carbine competition and 99.9% of the rifles there were AR/M4 varieties. We followed one group/team for the whole competition. About half-way into the competition, some of the ARs started to jam or get fouled up in one way or another. I was completely dumb-founded at the sight of guys who do these competitions all the time, and are very familiar with the AR/M4 platform, spend minutes trying to get the rifle back in service. This happened several times to different guys (different rifles) on the same team. Granted, these jams/foul-ups didn't happen right away (after a fair bit of shooting) -- but since you brought up the desire to have something go bang every time under harsh conditions you should be aware that AR/M4 type rifles (from everything I've ever seen and read) can't go for too long without proper cleaning. I'm sure there'll be those who say that they've never seen an AR/M4 jam, but you need to ask those folks how long (time and number of rounds) without cleaning.

This is not to say that an AR/M4 type rifle is not a good rifle (they are), but they are not nearly as forgiving as an AK once the rifle starts to get dirty.

If I wanted a rifle to satisfy your requirements for "go bang every time, even in harsh conditions", I would probably lean towards an SKS or AK for semi-auto action. I might also consider a lever action in .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, or .30-30.

C-grunt
March 3, 2012, 09:42 PM
A properly built AR is a very reliable weapon. They can run dirty all day long as long as they have some lube in them. They get a bad reputation because people use bad magazines and improperly built guns. There are too many complanies out there that build them to a price point, not to proper spec.

Ole Humpback
March 3, 2012, 10:32 PM
Seems to me the risk presented by someone trying to run you down with a car while fleeing the scene of a theft is not best met by firepower, but by not being in the road.

Sam, I just want to point out one small problem with this having lived in rural Iowa myself (read all roads were dirt): unless its rained hard, most any vehicle out there can drive off road fairly well. When I lived out there, I got about off road quite easily in my Camaro. A farmer walking his field to the anhydrous tanks would be easy prey for even a Civic wielding meth head.

Rifles don't STOP cars in their tracks, and firing any weapon at someone attempting to flee is not lawful. Make sure you understand what constitutes lawful "self-defense," and what does not.

This is true. However; a full-power rifle is far more useful in prosecuting the threat than just simply trying to evade the car driving meth head. Most people, even strung out ones, have some semblance of self preservation. But, given that some people will do anything for money, I'd be much more comfortable having a rifle at the ready in case someone tried to charge me with a car.

Sam1911
March 3, 2012, 10:54 PM
... most any vehicle out there can drive off road fairly well. ... A farmer walking his field to the anhydrous tanks would be easy prey for even a Civic wielding meth head.True enough. But a duel between a guy in a car and a guy with a rifle would be an ugly thing. The best bet would be to use mobility to get somewhere where the car can't go. If you're in the middle of a flat field without a vehicle of your own or some other plan ...well, that's a real problem! I think I'd try hard not to be in that position.

Rifles don't STOP cars in their tracks, and firing any weapon at someone attempting to flee is not lawful. Make sure you understand what constitutes lawful "self-defense," and what does not.
This is true. However; a full-power rifle is far more useful in prosecuting the threat than just simply trying to evade the car driving meth head. Most people, even strung out ones, have some semblance of self preservation. But, given that some people will do anything for money, I'd be much more comfortable having a rifle at the ready in case someone tried to charge me with a car. To be sure. Still...not plan "A." Of course, I'm also a big proponent of not going out alone -- armed or not -- to chase off bad guys. Stuff can be replaced. Defending your "stuff" or your "turf" ends badly for the defender (one way or another) far too often.

A farmer seeing headlights around his tanks at 2:00 am has plenty enough information already to know that some seriously unpleasant folks are doing something desperate and illegal. It ain't the cows loose again behind those headlights -- or a 'possum in the hen house. Walking out there to confront the meth heads is quite literally putting his life on the line for something that is a) replaceable, and b) covered by insurance anyway.

proven
March 3, 2012, 11:00 PM
squeaky wheel, i'm not sure what guys you wre following or what guns they were using, but an ar can run for quite some time without cleaning. i just read an account of a guy putting 10k rounds through his lmt with not a single cleaning. just lube. also check out this article to see what a well built ar can do.
http://www.slip2000.com/art-swat2.html

Sam1911
March 3, 2012, 11:06 PM
i just read an account of a guy putting 10k rounds through his lmt with not a single cleaning. just lube.
As I said before, google "Filthy 14" to see what an AR-15 can do.

Back in November of 2010 Pat Rogers & Co. broke the 40,000 round mark.

Wonder if they've got it to stop yet?

precisionrifle14
March 3, 2012, 11:24 PM
Thanks for the help guys, I guess I was over thinking it. I'm going with the LWRC M6A2 in FDE. I realize shooting experience will out weigh internet reading, so I'm ordering about 1000 rounds of 5.56.

proven
March 3, 2012, 11:37 PM
sam1911, you and i are on the same page. the article i posted the link to is about filthy 14.

Ole Humpback
March 3, 2012, 11:41 PM
The best bet would be to use mobility to get somewhere where the car can't go. If you're in the middle of a flat field without a vehicle of your own or some other plan ...well, that's a real problem! I think I'd try hard not to be in that position.

True enough. But when one is walking about, a car is far superior in agility & speed than a farmer.

To be sure. Still...not plan "A." Of course, I'm also a big proponent of not going out alone -- armed or not -- to chase off bad guys. Stuff can be replaced. Defending your "stuff" or your "turf" ends badly for the defender (one way or another) far too often.

A farmer seeing headlights around his tanks at 2:00 am has plenty enough information already to know that some seriously unpleasant folks are doing something desperate and illegal. It ain't the cows loose again behind those headlights -- or a 'possum in the hen house.

I was thinking of the morning walk where you go from barn to barn checking things out in the morning. Brazen broad daylight thefts of entire tanks happened when I lived out there. Some farmers walked up to their tanks only to find them being towed off the farm by some meth dealer in an F350. And while having a buddy system is good, it is by no means a good way of dealing with the problem.

Walking out there to confront the meth heads is quite literally putting his life on the line for something that is a) replaceable, and b) covered by insurance anyway.

Normally, I'd concur, but IMHO this is one of those exceptions to the rule thing. Farmers don't have that kind of insurance. They've got insurance for crop loss, drought, flood, swarms, storms, and other "Force Majuer" incidents. Property loss due to theft generally has low limits from what I've heard. Insurance companies just can't afford to replace 10k gal of anhydrous & towable tank every time some meth head steals a tank.

And while prudence demands a more fixed method of storing anhydrous, it all comes back to the "if they really want to steal it they will" thinking. At what point is it more hassle to the farmer than the meth heads are willing to put into stealing it? Anchor the tank in concrete, they steal your tractor to steal the tank & its anchor. Have multiple storage sites all over the farm to limit chances of the tanks being stolen from a single location, they drive all over the farm & do more damage than the tanks are worth. Store the tanks under ground and have a valve delivery system, they knock the heads off the valves and steal the anhydrous that flows out. That all happened while I was out there and I've not begun to scratch the surface.

So farmers are left in a precarious position. Do nothing and hopefully they have enough insurance to cover the lose, spend money that they don't have hardening their farm, or defend their property to the extents possible.

While I agree that using a rifle against a car is never an option A item, sometimes the avaliable option D (D as in Desperate) item is the only one that can be deemed feasible. I hate to say it, but this is definitely a no-win situation all round. Farmers can't afford to harden their farms, LEO's are way to thin for effective response, and insurance just can't cover it all. So its the least worst option avaliable that is the order of the day.

Seems this is one of those darned if you do & darned if you don't problems.

Sam1911
March 4, 2012, 12:44 AM
Seems this is one of those darned if you do & darned if you don't problems.

I certainly agree it is painful. However, there remains that old question: "What were you going to DO with that gun, anyway?" As it is, except in Texas, at night, under certain circumstances -- you CAN'T lawfully shoot someone for stealing property. Even if you don't have insurance to cover the loss. In many cases, you can't threaten to shoot them, either.

'Course, sometimes what happens on the farm stays on the farm...but the law isn't on your side if you use (or threaten) deadly force without an immediate threat to life.

Squeaky Wheel
March 4, 2012, 12:54 AM
Just read about 'Filthy 14' -- very impressive. There are still 2 big caveats: not all ARs (and AR parts) are the same, and must be properly lubed. This begs the questions: how does one know which ARs (and AR parts) are truly built to meet or exceed specs; and secondly, what are the particulars of proper lubing?

What I've often seen of 'truck guns' is terrible abuse and absolute neglect. This would likely mean no cleaning and no lubing. In such a case I would want either a well made AK or a well made lever action.

Sam1911
March 4, 2012, 12:55 AM
I realize shooting experience will out weigh internet reading, so I'm ordering about 1000 rounds of 5.56.


Awesome! :)

Next thread: Over in S&T -- who's class have you signed up to take? What matches are you going to shoot this summer? What drills are you practicing?

You got the EASY part figured out now! :D

benEzra
March 4, 2012, 02:04 AM
Yeah, it's a wonder we got through WW2 and the Korean War with those M1 Garands and that 30-06 caliber... lol... and the M1A is a great defensive rifle also...
Except the Garand wasn't very good at close-quarters engagements or inside buildings, which is why the U.S. issued the Thompson, the M3 "grease gun", etc. etc.

The M1 Garand made a great offensive rifle in the fields of Europe, but isn't necessarily the best choice as an HD rifle, due to length, power, and capacity.

Just read about 'Filthy 14' -- very impressive. There are still 2 big caveats: not all ARs (and AR parts) are the same, and must be properly lubed. This begs the questions: how does one know which ARs (and AR parts) are truly built to meet or exceed specs; and secondly, what are the particulars of proper lubing?
Lubing an AR: whenever is convenient, pop the rear pin and wet the bolt, carrier, and charging handle channel with any decent oil. (Even cheap motor oil will work fine, though synthetic lasts longer and smells better.)

If no time to pop any pins, squirt oil into the two gas discharge holes in the ejection port side of the bolt carrier, with the rifle assembled and the bolt forward. Repeat as needed.

awgrizzly
March 4, 2012, 02:10 AM
For defense, parts, durability, dependability and ease of ownership the AR should be fine. (If you want to shoot larger animals, get a .308.) The DDM4 should be fine, or just about any good quality AR like Colt, Bravo Company, Palmeto, S&W, to name a few. Also to be considered are the shotgun and handgun for carry and home defense... in addition to the AR. For durability get a chrome lined barrel, and for accuracy a stainless steel (for those elusive brain stem shots). What sets the ARs apart are the manufacturing tolerances and quality testing. Else there isn't that much difference... the mil spec design is the gun. Penetration might be an issue in a house. The 5.56 won't hardly penetrate hardwall without disintegrating while most hand gun calibers will penetrate. BTW, there is no excuse for not cleaning and lubing. You can get a AR grip that has a compartment for a cleaning kit and oil, so it will always be available for those short pauses while the zombies regroup. =o)

kopcicle
March 4, 2012, 06:31 PM
I think you need to more closely define "tactical rifle" and try again .
No I'm not trolling I'm just offering an opinion .
My choice would be a Belgian 50.61 , 50.63 , 50.64 .
It appears my tactics differ somewhat :-)

~kop

LAK
March 5, 2012, 10:03 AM
C-gruntWhat engagements have you been involved in where the M16/M4 has failed to deliver rounds on target effectively. I personally and several people I know have had good results out to and beyond 400 meters.
None, and I am equally sure that it has been used well beyond 400 - very common engagement distances.

That does not change the fact that the 5.56 is simply no equal to the 7.62 at longer ranges; it became obvious in both Iraq and Afghanistan that a heavier weapon was needed. Hence the M14 EBRs etc.

C-grunt
March 5, 2012, 01:33 PM
C-grunt.
None, and I am equally sure that it has been used well beyond 400 - very common engagement distances.

That does not change the fact that the 5.56 is simply no equal to the 7.62 at longer ranges; it became obvious in both Iraq and Afghanistan that a heavier weapon was needed. Hence the M14 EBRs etc.
What became obvious in these wars was the need for magnified optics to identify and locate the enemy at distance. Not all units used M14 EBRs and they are not as universally loved as some would lead people to believe.

You could give every Soldier and Marine a 308 rifle and it wouldn't increase the effectiveness of our rifle fire at long range. Our rifle fire is ineffective because your a average Soldier and Marine is not able to locate the enemy at those ranges let alone hit them with rifle fire.

The M16 is plenty accurate and the 5.56 is powerfull enough at 500 meters to drop bad guys. The problem is making the hits. But that why we have machine guns.

Lee D
March 5, 2012, 01:39 PM
well said^^^

LAK
March 5, 2012, 09:16 PM
There have been many optical sighting options for the M16 platform going back a long ways. If the EBR offered no overall improvement I do not believe they would have remained in use for so long in addition the squad MG.

C-grunt
March 5, 2012, 11:31 PM
There have been many optical sighting options for the M16 platform going back a long ways. If the EBR offered no overall improvement I do not believe they would have remained in use for so long in addition the squad MG.
They do offer an improvement over a standard rifle. But most of the improvement comes from the extra training that a DM recieves in distance shooting. You can't just give EBRs to everyone and expect distance kills to increase.

The 308 is always a better choice for long distance shooting. However in the situation of the SDM the newer match 5.56 works well. The DMR is not a sniper rifle, except in the case of the USMC issuing Mk12s as DMRs. It was implemented to give a squad a precision rifle to accurately engage targets at normal to extended rifle ranges.

LAK
March 6, 2012, 01:07 AM
No arguements with that.

SpeedAKL
March 6, 2012, 01:02 PM
For a primary defensive weapon, getting the DDM4, putting a good optic on top, and saving money for ammo and training is a common-sense way to go. Secondary recommendation would be the SCAR 16S. A solid argument can be made that it's a superior rifle to the AR. Having said that, the DD is far less expensive and (as others said) AR parts are everywhere.

kopcicle
March 15, 2012, 02:10 AM
They do offer an improvement over a standard rifle. But most of the improvement comes from the extra training that a DM recieves in distance shooting. You can't just give EBRs to everyone and expect distance kills to increase.


I'll put my trust in a Jarhead's rifle training . Some of course are better than others but all are a cut above the general GoPo . I've worked with both . I'll relate that my nephew on his return from Iraq feels that we gave him better instruction than he received prior to his deployment . However once deployed he ran into excellent instruction and better training . We're more than happy to have him home safe . A good sized care package was sent in return for the care , concern and excellent training he received .

Even though a rifle is nothing without the man behind it you can only be as good as the rifle will let you . My dinosaur choice is still .308 preferably in an FAL variant and I wouldn't squawk loud at all if forced to use an EBR (of any variant) .

Forgive me for being redundant, insistent or just a pain but I still have to ask just what is a "tactical rifle" ? My Bushmaster , an AK , My FN-FAL/STG , EBR ? Can I paint my .308 700BDL Heavy Barrel rattle can black and over scope it and call it a "tactical rifle"? . The term is over used , misinterpreted and is used by those without the knowledge or experience to express themselves effectively .

Lest you think I'm here to berate and taunt the membership look no farther than my sig line .

~kop

Art Eatman
March 15, 2012, 11:31 AM
See Post #68.

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