Recent school shooting question.


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CSestp
March 1, 2012, 03:10 PM
I had a couple questions with the shooting that took place at Chardon High School by the accused gunman T.J. Lane. Where did he get the ruger Mk 3 from? I have not followed this story close, but I have not heard anything about where the pistol came from. The second question is along the lines of prevention. Being I don't know how he got the firearm I couldn't say how to prevent this from happening.

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jfh
March 1, 2012, 08:02 PM
It appears he may have stolen it from his grandparents' barn. IIRC, it was purchased by an uncle perhaps in 2010. The rest of the story about his access to it, theft, and so on, haven't been determined yet, I think.

Jim H.

Telekinesis
March 1, 2012, 08:33 PM
I'm not up on the specifics of this case, but I can address the issue of keeping guns out of the hands of kids.

If someone really wants a handgun (even someone prohibited form possessing it like a felon or a minor) they will eventually end up getting one. And it would be difficult to effectively prevent it without creating a system that would hinder nearly all other legitimate gun owners. The best (read: most effective) way I could think to do it would be to treat it like NFA weapons. Register the gun and then make it a felony to give the gun to anyone else without proper documentation/paperwork and taxes etc. And even that wouldn't completely eliminate the problem, it would just make it more expensive for the buyers.

You don't even have to hide it. Not all arms deals take place on abandoned piers at midnight ;) Right after I turned 18 I bought several pistols in FTF transactions from people at gun shows and off forums. out of maybe 3 or 4 purchases, I was only asked for ID once. I could have gotten those guns a year or two earlier (illegally) and no one would have been the wiser. Now if we're talking about young kids, I agree that this isn't really plausible. But younger kids have friends who are older who may be able to look like they're legal.

To put it another way, drugs are essentially completely illegal for anyone in the US to use, possess, or manufacture (lets forget about medical marijuana for the sake of this example), but it would be nearly impossible to find any city in the US that didn't have at least some form of drug trade. Taking that one step further, lots of kids can get drugs if they want them through friends or friends of friends etc.
Now take an item (like a gun) that is completely legal for the vast majority of people in the US to have, possess, carry, and trade as they please without any regulation. Is it any surprise that a dedicated kid could get his hands on a gun?

bearcreek
March 1, 2012, 09:07 PM
Only way to prevent something like that is partly for the kid to be raised right and partly luck of the draw. I live near Chardon, my girlfriend went to school there and her brother will graduate from there this year. He was in the classroom next to the cafeteria when the shooting started. This is a small rural community, many of the kids hunt and shoot on a regular basis. As a general rule they're very familiar with firearms. It would be extremely unusual here for someone to lock up a gun away from a 17 year old. A 9 year old, maybe, 17 is ridiculous under normal circumstances. They can legally deer hunt without supervision with a handgun or shotgun at 16. The real, long term solution to these kinds of things has nothing to do with locks or safes. It's not a gun or gun safety issue, it's a moral issue.

jfh
March 1, 2012, 09:38 PM
Thread drift. Let's stay to answering the question posted, please.

Jim H.

Telekinesis
March 1, 2012, 09:44 PM
Jim, we're answering the OP's second question.

The second question is along the lines of prevention. Being I don't know how he got the firearm I couldn't say how to prevent this from happening.

I'll give you that my post is pretty long, but if you'll allow me to simplify it into one sentence: there is no reasonable way to keep prohibited persons (like minors) from obtaining firearms short of very drastic measures that would be very unpopular with nearly every gun owner in America.

You've pretty much covered the first question. There's not much more we can say about that one until the police investigation is complete.

303tom
March 1, 2012, 09:55 PM
I want to make ONE suggestion; Education, Education, Education................

303tom
March 1, 2012, 10:01 PM
Oh & some damn DISCIPLINE could`nt hurt, if I would have even thought of something like that when I was a kid, I would not have been able to sit down for a month................

lizziedog1
March 1, 2012, 10:09 PM
I work at a school for teenage deliquents. I have heard from them over and over that no gun law has or will stop them from getting a gun.

raz-0
March 1, 2012, 10:51 PM
You can have all the laws you like, there will still be illegal firearms around. The uk banned them, and instead of illegal stolen guns, you have illegal smuggled guns. There are more smuggled ones on the street, even full auto, and the price is lower than before.

As for being raised properly, it helps, but some people are just wired wrong, and all the responsible parenting doesn't mean much. Best you can do is pay attention to your kids and get them help if they need it. It still may not do much good.

wannabeagunsmith
March 1, 2012, 10:58 PM
He actually stole it from his uncle's house.... his grandparents 'lost' a gun prior to the shooting, so that was an idea for a short time.

Ed N.
March 2, 2012, 10:36 AM
There are very few shootings in airport terminals. Instituting airport-style security (metal detectors, xray machines, body scanners, strip searches) at school entrances would eliminate most (probably not all) school shootings.

And turn them into church shootings, ballfield shootings, school bus shootings, bus stop shootings, shopping mall shootings, restaurant shootings, .....

Access and possession controls won't solve the fundamental problem, which is the desire to murder in the first place. And that's been going on since Cane and Abel.

The only thing that's been proven to help is for the intended victims to be capable of defending themselves.

Owen Sparks
March 2, 2012, 10:41 AM
A vwey small percentage of people are NUTS and there is no way to control them in a free society until they have proven themselves to be dangerous.

average_shooter
March 2, 2012, 10:45 AM
Instituting airport-style security (metal detectors, xray machines, body scanners, strip searches) at school entrances would eliminate most (probably not all) school shootings.

That would just shift the shootings from being inside the school to outside the school. It wasn't too long ago that kids pulled the fire alarm and shot from the bushes as everyone came out of the building. Having everyone kegged up outside the building waiting to go through security lines is just asking for more trouble.

To answer the OP's question more directly, there's no good answer that will be effective and make everyone happy.

Ed N.
March 2, 2012, 08:48 PM
That would just shift the shootings from being inside the school to outside the school.

If you read my entire post, I believe that's what I said. The shootings will just happen elsewhere.

azgard
March 2, 2012, 10:02 PM
Albany High school in NYS has metal detector's and police on site constantly from what I heard from a coworker that attended back in 2003 and guns easily made it into the school regardless. More law's aren't the solution it's the culture that need's to be addressed, someone mentioned the drug trade earlier and that is a great example, prohibition is another.

tyeo098
March 2, 2012, 10:11 PM
Why don't we just make it illegal to murder people?

Oh, wait...

Remllez
March 3, 2012, 10:09 AM
What has changed in our country?

I went to school in the 50's and 60's and for the life of me I can't remember a student/school shooting ever!, I even took my gun safety training in school, granted it was after school hours. Guns at show and tell were quite common and no one freaked out at the sight of a gun.

A fist fight usually ended up with the combatants becoming friends. Almost every boy I knew had a pocketknife in their jeans yet no one was stabbed that I recall. During deer hunting season even some of the teachers took time off and the Friday before opening the school was devoid of boy students.

Guns were just as available to kids then and In fact most guns were displayed in the home in cabinets or hanging on the wall in a rack. Our own government sold military surplus pistols to ordinary people who had an extra $30.00 dollars in their pockets. It is amazing to me that a student would even consider mass murder as a solution to any problem they encounter at their age!

As you may have guessed by now I don't believe "guns" are the cause of these events that take place in our schools or workplaces for that matter. Something else has changed fundamentally in our culture, gun control laws only affect law abiding, morally decent people, it's not that difficult to understand, is it? Gun free school zones are safest for the shooter not the students! If a teacher had a weapon the outcome of the Chardon High shooting may well have had a happier ending.

I welcome discussion and opinions on this matter. This post is just my opinion and hope it makes sense to someone besides me. At the least it may get us thinking about why these things happen.

FROGO207
March 4, 2012, 07:24 AM
If you train and requite all school personnel to carry firearms at work as a condition of employment I believe the school shootings would most likely end. This education would help the gun rights movement 100 fold I bet. Getting someone that treats a firearm like a handful of radioactive sewage to embrace their use would be impossible IMHO.:banghead: Yes the mindset of the collective education establishment needs to be changed. You would think that the exact things which are stressed when owning/using firearms responsibly/safely would also be good principles for other successful life lessons/results.
You can not remove firearms from society but you CAN teach safe responsible use and the educational entities are failing our children in that respect today.

Gun Geezer
March 4, 2012, 09:05 AM
If you read my entire post, I believe that's what I said. The shootings will just happen elsewhere.
This is exactly the logic that the anti's are using: The shootings cannot be stopped without eliminating ALL guns entirely.

lobo9er
March 4, 2012, 09:13 AM
treat it like NFA weapons
thats how handguns are treated in NY and plenty get stolen and used in crime so. Criminals commit crime and will do so until the earth crashed into the sun, which is coming up in december anyways, according to the myans.

lobo9er
March 4, 2012, 09:15 AM
Didnt read the whole thread but has anyone mentioned that schools ar a GUN FREE ZONE so school shootings cant happen.

xfyrfiter
March 4, 2012, 02:23 PM
The term latch key kids has a high responsibility for a lot of juvenile problems. Single parent homes and not making Jonny take responsibility for his actions. Dad and Mom both working just to provide for the kids.
All of these things contribute to the problem and we are not going to stop it till our kids are taught to respect the sanctity of life and respect for others. We have vid games that teach that killing others is ok and there are no consequences for your actions. The death penality needs to be reinstated and used if you kill another human with malice and forthought you should pay the price even if you are only 12 yo you need to be held accountable.
Ok that is enough of my rant but this is the only solution IMO keeping guns out of reach will not make a d####d bit of difference the pnly way to keep man from killing another is to cut off his hands and feet and knock all his teeth out.

CmdrSlander
March 4, 2012, 09:59 PM
We have vid games that teach that killing others is ok and there are no consequences for your actions

Video games are works of fiction and a sane person can distinguish between simulated/fake violence and the real thing. If the person playing is insane then that is another story. Not to mention, video games that actually allow the player to kill people are generally rated Mature, and require a parent or legal guardian to make the purchase if the buyer is under 17. If you are the parent of a disturbed child, you would not by them such a game. I have "killed" at least 1 Million people/creatures in video games and have never harmed another living person.

Full Disclosure: I am a Game Designer.

the iron horse
March 5, 2012, 05:12 PM
What has changed in our country?

I went to school in the 50's and 60's and for the life of me I can't remember a student/school shooting ever!, I even took my gun safety training in school, granted it was after school hours. Guns at show and tell were quite common and no one freaked out at the sight of a gun.

A fist fight usually ended up with the combatants becoming friends. Almost every boy I knew had a pocketknife in their jeans yet no one was stabbed that I recall.

~Remllez



I know what you mean.

I attended a rural high school in the early 1970s. Alomst every boy had
a pocket knife. I never saw one used in a fight.

In the parking lot, it was a common sight to see hunting rifles and shotguns
in the gun racks of student's trucks.

JustinJ
March 5, 2012, 05:22 PM
The term latch key kids has a high responsibility for a lot of juvenile problems. Single parent homes and not making Jonny take responsibility for his actions. Dad and Mom both working just to provide for the kids.

Somebody please correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure many school shootings have been by kids living with married parents and there were single parents long before school shootings were as common as they are today. Parental involvement is one key component; be it from one or two.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
March 5, 2012, 05:35 PM
I believe school shootings could be prevented if EVERYBODY in that building did their part to prevent bullying. Yes, I don't know the percentage of suicides caused by bullying, and I am no expert. But I do believe bullying to be the Number One Reason why we have school shootings.

Remllez
March 5, 2012, 09:43 PM
Mosin Freak....

I respectfully disagree, school shootings were nearly unheard of until the 1980's or so.
Bullying has been taking place since the first day of the first school. Something else is going on.

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