what do u think is a timeless firearm?


PDA






beehlebf
March 1, 2012, 10:35 PM
Im wondering about what all you guys consider as a timeless firearm. A design that really cant be outdated with a few cosmetic changes and has and will maintain capable at what it does. I would say the ruger 10/22 for sure as it has been and always will be an efficient 22 rifle and then i would say a remington 870 or mossberg 500 b/c they will always be effective. Idk about the 1911 as tried and true as it is i think limited mag size and bullet technology in wonder nines have dropped it down in its glory just a bit.

If you enjoyed reading about "what do u think is a timeless firearm?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
jcwit
March 1, 2012, 10:41 PM
Winchester 94

fallingbird
March 1, 2012, 10:42 PM
Colt SAA. Always has and always will be the quintessential six-shooter.

Flintknapper
March 1, 2012, 10:47 PM
I'd have to agree with Remington 870, Browning superposed.... and Marlin 39 (for a .22) are ones that come to mind immediately.

Onmilo
March 1, 2012, 11:05 PM
1911 .45 acp
101 years and still going strong

56hawk
March 1, 2012, 11:16 PM
98 Mauser. Pretty much the standard bolt action design and not likely to change anytime soon.

MrDig
March 1, 2012, 11:17 PM
I tend to consider Actions more so than firearms themselves. Revolvers are timeless. The Henry Rifle started the Lever Action ball rolling for all the other Timeless Lever Actions that will be mentioned so I guess the Henry is a Timeless firearm.
The Mauser Action was a watershed for Battle rifles of its era so the Mauser 98 has to be right up there.
Then there is the 1911, without it most other Semi Automatic Pistols would not have happened.
The Garand and the Kalashnikov, are two more weapons that revolutionized firearm design.
Not certain what else I would add to the list. But those cover modern era weapons pretty well.

GuysModel94
March 1, 2012, 11:26 PM
American made Lever Actions and Smith&Wesson revolvers.

TurkeyOak
March 1, 2012, 11:31 PM
We are lucky for classic guns to go with the 2nd A. My list of classics are:

The flintlock Longrifle
The lever action rifle
Colt Single Action Army
Colt 1911
Thompson submachine gun
Browning .50 cal machine gun
S&W .38 special snubnose
M14
12 gauge pump shotgun
12 gauge coach gun

Some of these are categories rather than specific, like (Henry, Winchester and Marlins) for levers and the (Rem 870 and Moss 500) for pump.

But the are guns that when I see then I saw "Hooray for our side!"

TurkeyOak
March 1, 2012, 11:33 PM
^when I see them I say...

nyrifleman
March 1, 2012, 11:36 PM
I guess I'll be the first one to say it: AK-47.

medalguy
March 1, 2012, 11:37 PM
Definitely would name the Browning .50 cal M2HB. That gun has been made essentially unchanged since 1921 with the exception of the elimination of the water jacket, and it is still being used by our military forces around the world today.

TurkeyOak
March 1, 2012, 11:37 PM
Internationally I'd go:

British Brown Bess
Napoleon 12 pounder
Mauser 98
Broomstick Mauser
Luger 08
Enfield .303
Walther PPK
AK47
88 mm Panzer cannon
Glock 17

CSestp
March 1, 2012, 11:38 PM
PPK started the trend of a easy to carry pistol.

TurkeyOak
March 1, 2012, 11:38 PM
Maybe drop the Enfield for the Maxim or Lewis?

Countryboy7
March 1, 2012, 11:43 PM
I'll be another to say AK47. And also any single shot 22. They are handy little rifles

mgmorden
March 1, 2012, 11:56 PM
You can almost answer this by looking at the platforms with the most aftermarket accessory support.

Ruger 10/22, AR-15, 1911, Remington 870, Mauser 98, and the Glock.

With the exception of the Glock, all of those are 50+ years old, and the Glock is 30 years old, yet all remain popular and commonly used. I personally think all (including the Glock) have been technologically improved upon by other designs, but none have been so outmoded as to make them useless.

Dr.Rob
March 1, 2012, 11:57 PM
Mauser bolt action of 1898. Became the Kar 98k and the pre 64 model Winchester. THE hunting rifle.

1911 because so many of its features are still used.

Marlin Model 60. It's been through a number of cosmetic changes but primarily still the same internally as ever.

tryshoot
March 1, 2012, 11:59 PM
m107 never found a target i could not miss. not gun

doc2rn
March 2, 2012, 12:04 AM
Each brand has some iconic hold overs that are solid pieces. Marlin 39a and 60, Ruger GPs and Mark series, Colt 1911s and Snake guns, S&W mod 10s. You just have to know what you like.

50 cal
March 2, 2012, 12:18 AM
+1 for the browning 50 cal machine gun. To my knowledge, its the longest serving weopon in our military history. I'm glad I got one. Lol.

Shimitup
March 2, 2012, 12:22 AM
For shotguns I have to throw in Winchester model 12 and Browning A5 as my favs.

whalerman
March 2, 2012, 12:24 AM
Remington Rolling Block.

Break open shotguns.

rojocorsa
March 2, 2012, 12:39 AM
The Mauser action and anything that basically uses Browning delayed blow-back locking system.

tryshoot
March 2, 2012, 12:46 AM
Marlin mod 60 is a tough gun and usually accur.

Countryboy7
March 2, 2012, 12:49 AM
It's been a long time since there was a completely new design of a firearm. By design I mean like lever action, automatic, you all know what I mean.

tryshoot
March 2, 2012, 12:52 AM
I mean i can miss everything, sorry

Tim37
March 2, 2012, 12:53 AM
lots of good choices out there. but i would have to say a nice side by side double barrel shot gun.

tryshoot
March 2, 2012, 01:05 AM
kel-tec p3at

SpringfieldArmoryXD
March 2, 2012, 01:10 AM
M1 Garrand

JRH6856
March 2, 2012, 01:58 AM
Colt SAA
S&W .44 Russian
Colt 1911
S&W Triple Lock (.44 Hand Ejector 1st Model 'New Century')
Browning Hi Power
Ruger Mk 1

1874-pattern Sharps
Winchester 94
03-A3 Springfield
Marlin 60

Winchester Model 12

Dnaltrop
March 2, 2012, 02:27 AM
The Volcanic, (Father of the Henry Lever-action if I'm not mistaken)
The Schofield,
The Registered Magnum,
The Model 10.

2 of 4 collected... sadly the easy ones. I have some work ahead of me.

1911Tuner
March 2, 2012, 03:55 AM
Another vote for the '94 Winchester...and of course, the Marlin lever-action carbines. Probably the most underrated smallarm in the country, if not the world. If I'm to face an armed adversary, I much prefer that he's the AR/AK spray'n'pray practitioner than the country boy with his grandpa's old Thutty-Thutty.

The 1911, of course. Magazine capacity is fine. The pistol has been in continuous production for over a century, and they sell as fast as they can be produced.

The SAA and DA revolver. They remain, in spite of the Wondernines.

The '98 Mauser, which inspired all modern bolt-action rifles. Old faithful.

Arkansas Paul
March 2, 2012, 04:08 AM
Colt SAA and 1911

1911Tuner
March 2, 2012, 05:37 AM
After a little consideration, I'd like to add the AK47 to my short list. While I'm not overly fond of it, you really can't argue with it. The thing flat works, and it works under conditions that would shut several others down.

It's cheap and fast to make in great numbers, and it's wickedly effective. The AK is the symbol of the revolutionary. I think that it will be produced for as long as there's anybody who has the ability and the will to produce it. Love it or hate it, the AK is here, and it'll be part of the picture for a very long time, even in the face of more advanced smallarms technology.

bannockburn
March 2, 2012, 06:04 AM
1) Kentucky Long Rifle
2) Colt Model 1860
3) Colt Single Action Army
4) Winchester Model 1894
5) Mauser Model 1898
6) Luger P08
7) Colt M1911
8) S&W Model 10
9) M1 Garand
10) Colt M-16
11) AK 47
12) Remington Model 870

Morgo
March 2, 2012, 07:04 AM
Sig P49

Tcruse
March 2, 2012, 07:30 AM
Colt 1911
Glock 17

Loosedhorse
March 2, 2012, 07:40 AM
I don't think in terms of "timeless." I think in terms of "classic"--an item that epitomizes its particular time.

Funny that a lot of the guns you all are picking as "timeless" are ones I'd consider "classics." Just classics with a lot of longevity, I guess.

But most of my classics have had their time.

ZCORR Jay
March 2, 2012, 07:42 AM
Timeless? The Mosin Nagant. There are so many of those things we'll never see the last of them.

T.R.
March 2, 2012, 07:47 AM
H & R has built this action for wide diversity of applications from shotgun barrels to high power rifles.

TR

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c146/rushmoreman/HR.jpg

303tom
March 2, 2012, 08:03 AM
The old Single Shots...................Yeah buddy.

Sav .250
March 2, 2012, 08:22 AM
Savage 99. Pre million manufactured.

Pilot
March 2, 2012, 08:38 AM
Colt 1911
Browning Hi Power
Model 94 Winchester
Colt SAA



Hi Point :evil:

trailgator
March 2, 2012, 09:58 AM
another vote for the Colt SAA

ApacheCoTodd
March 2, 2012, 10:18 AM
All the iterations of the Henry/Winchester levers.

1911 format semis.

SAA platform revolvers.

Browning pattern slide action shotguns.

KodeFore
March 2, 2012, 10:53 AM
Ma deuce (m2) , the 1911, marlin 39, rem 870 & moss 500 equally and AR15/M16 gets my vote because of its modularity & adaptability

SaxonPig
March 2, 2012, 02:28 PM
http://www.fototime.com/BC1384834047019/standard.jpg


http://www.fototime.com/E95DA3ABABF6EB1/standard.jpg


http://www.fototime.com/CD60409C0D38CBB/standard.jpg


http://www.fototime.com/2A08C3CF1A7EAF6/standard.jpg


http://www.fototime.com/5CEEF8D30C654A5/standard.jpg


http://www.fototime.com/F0C843DA4DB9715/standard.jpg

iLikeOldgunsIlikeNewGuns
March 2, 2012, 07:01 PM
I must limit my response to guns I enjoy on a regular basis, otherwise the list would be wwaaaaaay too long, and many have been previously mentioned.

1911!
SAA/clones
Henry Goldenboy lever-.22
Marlin 336
mosin 91/30
AK-47
DA S&W revolvers (pre lock)
remington 521-style bolt action .22s
rem 870/moss 500
I also must say cap n ball guns, obsolete technology, but so fun (therapeutic even) that I still shoot them quite often!

that was my quick answer, I know I'm forgetting some already, and there are others that I don't use as often that also certainly fit the bill.

EnfieldEnthusiast
March 2, 2012, 07:27 PM
Well Id have to say that I think that there are several types of firearms that fit the term 'timeless firearm'.

Colt 1911 models,from 1911 to present

Model 92,94& 95 lever-action rifles.

Remington 870 pump-action shotgun/

Colt Pythons & Anacondas

Smith & Wesson revolvers.

Bolt-action rifles (Particulary the Mausers,Remingtons,Winchesters & Steyrs:-)

MP5 submachine gun.

FN P90.I think that will be around for a long time too.

beehlebf
March 2, 2012, 10:42 PM
Many of you are saying the colt SAA and although its iconic is it really that effective in modern day compared to double action revolvers. It may ne nostalgic and beautiful but its design and ergonimics cant keep up with modern day. An old levergun however is still very effective

ApacheCoTodd
March 2, 2012, 10:47 PM
Many of you are saying the colt SAA and although its iconic is it really that effective in modern day compared to double action revolvers. It may ne nostalgic and beautiful but its design and ergonimics cant keep up with modern day. An old levergun however is still very effective
I think the "timeless" aspect of it is that not only does Colt still make a version but many, many others pay tribute to the format by continually updating and releasing new versions of the same.

wlewisiii
March 2, 2012, 10:59 PM
1899 Military & Police (aka K Frame)
113 years and still going strong

:evil:

Winchester 94, Mauser K98, Parker shotguns are all good examples as well.

mossguy
March 2, 2012, 11:01 PM
M-1 Carbine

Hurricane
March 3, 2012, 12:18 AM
Smith and Wesson 29-2 with 6.5" barrel.

Marlin Model 60.

Winchester 94 in .30-30.

Beretta 92fs.

Remington 870 Wingmaster.

I can't think of a single complaint for any of the above, and to me they represent the top tier if not the best in their own respective categories of action OR caliber.

premier1
March 3, 2012, 07:32 AM
The Walther PPK,The Colt 1911,Mauser K98,Winchester Mod 70,Remington 870,Colt AR-15,AK47,Glock 17,Winchester94,S&W Mod.29,Colt Detective Special,and Remington 700.

Lee D
March 3, 2012, 07:41 AM
"The greatest battle implement ever devised".
General George S. Patton



http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/6044/02m1garand.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/02m1garand.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Hunt480
March 3, 2012, 08:07 AM
[QUOTE]"The greatest battle implement ever devised".
General George S. Patton[/QUOTE

I don't think that can be topped...

Legionnaire
March 3, 2012, 08:12 AM
I'm surprised not to see a Remington 700 BDL on the list ... so I'll put it there.
Along with the Ruger Single Six ...
Concur with the 1911 (even though I don't own one)
And add any good S&W, Colt, or Ruger .357 mag revolver.

Loosedhorse
March 3, 2012, 08:16 AM
I believe Patton stole that line from Ogg, Chief of Ogg's Tribe of Cavepeople. Ogg was holding a very impressive rock at the time.

Patton's assessment, like Ogg's, is an interesting history footnote--but that's all. ;)

highlander 5
March 3, 2012, 08:42 AM
SMLE,Walther PPK,p 38,Luger,almost anything Colt,Sharps 1874,03a3.

lono
March 3, 2012, 10:28 AM
1911 and ak47

CountryUgly
March 3, 2012, 04:49 PM
Savage model 110

1911Tuner
March 3, 2012, 05:11 PM
Many of you are saying the colt SAA and although its iconic is it really that effective in modern day compared to double action revolvers.

While that may be true for most people, there are several who have honed their SAA skills to a level that make the old Peacemaker a surprisingly effective arm...but the question was more about design than tactical superiority. One man, operating alone, can put any of these aforementioned weapons to frightening effect. In that respect, they're just as good today as they were a hundred years ago. Timeless.

LawScholar
March 3, 2012, 05:16 PM
Colt 1911
Smith & Wesson J-Frame Snubnose
Remington 870
AR-15/M16
AK-47/74
Glock (some might bristle at this as heresy, but it's probably the most widely recognized gun worldwide save the AK)

Route666
March 3, 2012, 05:20 PM
For me, definitely the 1911, as when I was around 20 and starting to seriously think about getting into shooting, I liked 1911s, didn't know what they were called, and thought they were just another modern firearm.

I think the Beretta 92FS will also have a similar story, maybe not as long as technology, trends, etc now change a lot quicker than they did through the 20th century, but barring a revolution in firearm ammunition development, I think it will be around for a long time and looking good alongside the 1911 in whatever era.

tryshoot
March 3, 2012, 05:52 PM
savage 99 First lever to shoot pointed bullet.

libertygun
March 3, 2012, 08:43 PM
winchester 61/62A

richie
March 3, 2012, 09:41 PM
Win.model 12, Browning A-5,Colt single action army, Colt 1911, Mauser 98, Win. 94 and AK-47.

FROGO207
March 4, 2012, 09:29 AM
I would think that this is timeless............

The SAA style revolver
Any single or double, break open type rifle/shotty
Any bolt action rifle

Both simplistic in design and few moving parts to go bad.
They tend to last for generations without much help.

VTHokiesDuckhunter
March 4, 2012, 06:16 PM
All Smith & Wesson3rd generation pistols like the 5906, 3913, 4014
Smith & Wesson Revolvers like the 29 and 686
Browning BPS pumps
Browning Superposed and Citori's
Browning Auto-5's
Ithaca M37 pumps
1911 pistols
Remington Wingmaster
Remington 1100
Winchester lever action rifles, and of course the
Remington 700 BDL bolt action in .30-06
Winchester Model 70 bolt action rifles
Winchester 101's made by FN - a new Classic
Walther PPK
Browning Hi-Power
Browning Buckmark
Ruger 10/22
Ruger MK III pistols

bowman1962
March 4, 2012, 06:23 PM
I 2nd the Remington 700 BDL. in 30-06 iconic and timeless!

skoro
March 4, 2012, 06:43 PM
For me, it's the Colt 1911.

hermannr
March 4, 2012, 11:56 PM
Ones I regularly shoot?

High Standard Sport King, Olympic and Trophy. (would like to find a Longhorn to go with the autos...all from Connecticut)
Marlin 60
Win 1897
First issue Colt Officers model .38.
Rem 700

wishn4more
March 5, 2012, 12:03 AM
BHP, 1911, Model 94, Model 870. All still just a beautiful and functional as ever.

thefamcnaj
March 5, 2012, 12:08 AM
The trust ole 870 is a classic that just keeps on going. Tough as nails and never let you down.
The 1911, 101 years later still gets produced in large volumes. People will always want that classic look. There is no better looking gun than the 1911, when done right. Some people say their magezine capasity holds them back, but Para makes some higher cap 1911's but I guess a double stack is getting away from the purity of it.

Buck Nekkid
March 5, 2012, 10:31 PM
Timeless Euro craftsmanship, one of the first "wonder nines" and still going strong...THE CZ 75B!

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/ottonsure/75thAnniv75.jpg

gyvel
March 5, 2012, 10:39 PM
Definite icons are the:

Mauser Model 1896 "Broomhandle"
Parabellum pistol
Colt 1911
Browning High-Power
No. 1 Mk III Lee-Enfield
1903 Springfield
98k Mauser
Colt SAA
Smith & Wesson Military & Police + successors
M1 Garand
AK 47
Winchester Model 12
Winchester Model 94
FN FAL
M1 Carbine

gyvel
March 5, 2012, 10:44 PM
Wow! I see that CZ is remaking the old, original CZ75. Ironically, that model ended up with today's more familiar beefed up slide front and longer rails because of cracking.

rugerman07
March 6, 2012, 04:08 AM
Ruger's Single Six & Blackhawks.

harrygunner
March 6, 2012, 04:23 AM
It's legit to see a 1911 in a cowboy western, a silent movie, all the world war movies and in a movie that premieres next week.

Same strong utility in daily life, over the last century, for the 1911.

CaliCoastie
March 6, 2012, 11:06 AM
marlin 39a(from 1891)

pockets
March 6, 2012, 12:34 PM
Who is 'U' ?

.

CZguy
March 6, 2012, 01:13 PM
Who is 'U' ?


What post # are you referring to?

dubya450
March 25, 2012, 09:37 AM
Oh I'd say any classic 1911, a lever action Marlin 336 or Winchester 94, or a Remington 700 or Winchester m70

bushmaster1313
March 25, 2012, 09:41 AM
Winchester Model 70:
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/bushmaster1313/CIMG0530.jpg
Smith and Wesson .357 Magnum
http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/bushmaster1313/CIMG0813.jpg

I call this photo: "Living In The Past and Loving It"
Alternate name: "All The Guns I Ever Needed To Know Were Made Before I Went To Kindergarden

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww6/bushmaster1313/CIMG0566.jpg

Nushif
March 25, 2012, 10:19 AM
If we only look at American guns we could talk about 1911s and lever actions and all that, but I think you will find very few people in the workd who have not seen a double barrel shotgun in their life. Ever.

Next to a musket, my nomination goes to the SxS double barrel.

CZguy
March 25, 2012, 02:01 PM
There are many classic timeless guns. Here is one that I like, a 1943 Remington 1903 A3.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/03A3II.jpg

Ala Dan
March 25, 2012, 06:21 PM
Looks like you named 'em all - Ruger 10/22, Remington 870, and John Browning's
1911~! Add to that a Smith & Wesson M&P model 10, and there you have it. ;)

Silent Bob
March 26, 2012, 05:56 PM
Didn't read the whole thread but my vote goes toward many of the designs of John Moses Browning used for decades or even still in widespead use today, such as the 1911, Browning Hi-Power, M2 .50-caliber machine gun, A-5 shotgun, the Superposed shotgun, the Winchester 1897, Model 94 lever-action, the Pocket Hammerless auto, and so on.

Honorable mention would be Smith & Wesson double action revolvers from the Model 10 up until the '80s or so.

Fishslayer
March 26, 2012, 10:37 PM
Idk about the 1911 as tried and true as it is i think limited mag size and bullet technology in wonder nines have dropped it down in its glory just a bit.

There are a whole bunch of us who will heartily disagree. I would even venture to say a statement like that will really make the corn grow!

I own one plastic nine, a SIG. An OK gun but it, nor any other "wonder nine," will not in any way, shape or form, diminish the 1911.

Now... get back to cleaning yer plastic blocks...:evil:

If I had to pick a timeless nine, it would be a tie between the Luger & BHP.

Ruger556
March 26, 2012, 11:45 PM
Springfield 1911 .45 ACP....

JTJones
March 27, 2012, 02:00 AM
I would say the sturmgewehr 44 the father of all assault weapons.:evil:

BlackSky
March 27, 2012, 02:11 AM
The S&W Masterpiece series revolvers.

7Lug
March 27, 2012, 03:42 AM
Rifle:
Winchester Model 70

Handgun:
Browning Hi Power

Shotgun:
Remington 870

Rimfire:
Marlin Glenfield Model 60

Oh and a Daisy Red Rider!

hang fire
March 27, 2012, 06:25 AM
The American flintlock longrifle.

Odd Job
March 27, 2012, 06:46 AM
Any break open shotgun. It could have been manufactured yesterday or 100 years ago, it is still the same deal.

Searcher4851
March 27, 2012, 03:37 PM
winchester lever
SAA
97 pump shotgun
98 mauser
DA S&W
1911
Garand
and the ever recognizable side by side shotgun

PinoyInFL
March 27, 2012, 03:41 PM
I agree with the 10/22 and rem 870 and moss 500. I'll add smith & wesson revolvers, M1 garand and the M14.

ConstitutionCowboy
March 27, 2012, 03:44 PM
Marlin mod 60 is a tough gun and usually accur.

Good. I just bought one.

As for timeless, I'd have to go with the 1911. It's as modern now as it was in 1911, and I predict it'll be as venerated and popular in another hundred years. (I just hope that in 2111, our great-grandkids can say the same and make the same prediction.)

Woody

searcher451
March 27, 2012, 05:04 PM
At least two Walthers: The PPK and the P.38.

Holland&Holland
March 27, 2012, 08:14 PM
Lee-Enfield SMLE
Browning-Winchester 1897 shotgun
S&W M&P of 1899 .38 Special
Mauser 1898
Browning-FN Auto 5 shotgun
Browning-Colt 1911
Walther PP
S&W .357 Magnum 9f 1935
Dieudonne Saive P-35 HiPower
Winchester M70
Sturmgewehr 44
Remington 870/1100
Glock 17

Old Time Hunter
March 27, 2012, 11:55 PM
Winchester Model 94

Remington 870

Both of these are required under the unwritten American law that says all real Americans should have these or their equivalents during their life time.

Pistol:

Toss up between the 1911 and a SA

Tomcat47
March 28, 2012, 12:05 AM
Marlin / Winny Lever Actions....

Rem 700 Bolt....

1911 Auto.....

Beretta 92....

Sharps 1874 Rolling Block.....

Marlin Golden 39 ( I know I said Marlin Levers..but it deserves its own line in the thread!)...:D

And I have to add M1 Garand and M1 Carbine and Luger P08 for WW2 era military pieces

tekarra
March 28, 2012, 08:10 PM
Well, let's see now: Colt SAA, S&W K frame, Browning P35, Colt 1911, Luger P08, Mauser 98, Winchester 94, SMLE and SxS shotgun.

trex1310
March 28, 2012, 08:13 PM
The Smith & Wesson Model 27.

Redneck with a 40
March 28, 2012, 08:13 PM
1911

Browning Hi-Power

Winchester Model 70

monet61
March 28, 2012, 08:51 PM
Colt SAA. 1911 .45 Auto. Rem 870.

PaulKersey3
March 30, 2012, 12:58 AM
The AK platform is and will remain timeless and ubiquitous in human conflict and defense for generations to come.

"The AK47: The reason Aliens see earth as a bad neighborhood, and speed right through."

If you enjoyed reading about "what do u think is a timeless firearm?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!