The proper weapon for Appleseed courses


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The Grand Baboon
March 2, 2012, 01:08 AM
I'm signing up for an Appleseed course this coming April in my home state of Utah. I regularly use a well broken in, bolt-action CZ-452 chambered in 22. LR. With open sights this rifle is more than capable of quarter sized groups at fifty yards and less than a dime if I have a decent scope mounted. Unfortunately, I'm under the impression that this weapon will be somewhat of a burden during the course of the Appleseed class due to its low magazine capacity and the fact that it's bolt-action. I have another 22. LR which is semi-automatic and has a removable magazine (a S&W 15-22 to be specific), but is no where near the CZ-452 in terms of accuracy. What rifle would should I take to the course?

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sixgunner455
March 2, 2012, 01:33 AM
Both.

Pick one to be your primary, and the other is your backup. The standard "LTR" is semiauto, but people take whatever they have, and whatever they like of what they have.

The CZ has ten-round magazines available for it, but they are expensive. My buddy bought several of them when he got his 452.

I am going to an Appleseed for the first time this weekend. I am taking both of my kids, so I am going to use my Savage .22lr bolt while my daughter uses my 10/22 - I think it'll be easier to use the 10/22, and I know she'll have an easier time running it, so that's what the plan is. I have a couple of ten-round magazines for the Savage, and a handful of them for the 10/22.

I figure, I hunt with a bolt rifle, so I ought to get more familiar with running one under pressure, like I did with the semiauto when I was in the Army. If there is a disadvantage at the course to running a bolt, I'm just accepting whatever it is for that reason.

henschman
March 2, 2012, 06:30 AM
I am an Appleseed Shoot Boss, and also own a CZ-452. I have shot multiple Expert scores on the 25m AQT with it... in fact, I have never shot anything but an Expert score with it. That rifle makes me look good!

As long as you have at least 2 mags for it, you should be fine, even if they are both 5 round mags. The usual rules for the AQT require mags of 2 and 8 for the mag change stages; but in the old days, the military used to let the guys with 1903s use clips of 5 and 5 when shooting this course of fire. So at Appleseeds, I have never had a problem with bolt guns using clips/mags of 5 and 5. That was how I was taught to do it by my mentor Shoot Boss, and I assume other Shoot Bosses across the country would allow this too; but I don't really know for sure. You might try sending a PM or e-mail to the Idaho State Coordinator, who goes by "Reformed Redneck" on the Appleseed forum; or e-mail him at ID@appleseedinfo.org, to make sure they do it that way up there too.

You will want a good shooting sling on that CZ if you're going to use it at an Appleseed... either a GI web sling or a 1907 leather sling. For either one of those, you will need to replace the factory 1" swivels with 1.25" swivels. I swapped mine out for Uncle Mike's swivels. The new swivels fit a little tight in the factory sling studs, but I was able to work them in.

The stages with significant time pressure are a little more of a challenge with a bolt gun, but you will do fine as long as you learn to get your NPOA quickly and get a good cadence going... it is also important to keep your support elbow planted and keep the stock in your shoulder pocket while working the bolt, and to keep your cheek weld, if you can.

You might as well bring your M&P-22 as well. Hell, if you qualify on one, you can switch to the other and do it with it too! IIRC the M&P's don't come from the factory with a front sling stud or swivel, so if you want to use it, you'll need to get some sort of picatinny attachment that will let you mount a sling to the railed handguard... either a sling stud or a QD socket, and a swivel to go with it. For the rear swivel, I think they have a standard sling stud on the stock that you can put an Uncle Mike's swivel in. Also you will want an extra mag for that rifle, too.

Have fun, and good luck getting that Rifleman's patch!

GCBurner
March 2, 2012, 10:57 AM
I used a bolt action Mossberg in my first Appleseed last month. It was a little slower on the timed stages, but I've been practicing some, and I'll be taking it back to the next one this month. I got some 10-round magazines for it, and replaced the factory 1" sling swivels with 1 1/4" QD swivels, so I could add a USGI web sling. The sling, swivels, and mags are the only upgrades I've done, as I've had this rifle a long time, and I know it will shoot straight, if I do my part. I didn't feel the need to spend big bucks on a new rifle with LTR upgrades just for the Appleseed shoot. The best thing you can do is get in a lot of dry-fire practice working the bolt.

MythBuster
March 2, 2012, 11:34 AM
I see Appleseed has turned into a rimfire sporter match. That is sort of sad but then again if it is getting people off the bench it is still a good thing.

The Grand Baboon
March 2, 2012, 01:57 PM
Awesome, I'll just bring both rifles then.

You will want a good shooting sling on that CZ if you're going to use it at an Appleseed... either a GI web sling or a 1907 leather sling.

I have a "leather" military strap that I picked up at Sportsman's after I bought the CZ. Should I look into getting a better one, or is this close to the 1907 sling you mentioned?
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m522/zreed042/0b233420.jpg
http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m522/zreed042/261fde37.jpg

henschman
March 2, 2012, 02:16 PM
Yeah, that is a 1907 sling. It is cool that you found one that would fit through the factory swivels. Just make sure you know how to run it as a loop sling. There are some guides and videos online.

I see Appleseed has turned into a rimfire sporter match. That is sort of sad but then again if it is getting people off the bench it is still a good thing.

What makes you say that -- the fact that a couple guys were on here talking about .22s to use at an Appleseed?

Come to Grandfield, OK this Patriot's Day weekend and you'll see what a "rimfire match" we're running. We usually get a crowd of 50 or more, and we shoot out to 1,000 yards on Sunday.

Not to disparage rimfires... if you can't shoot Expert at 25m with a .22, then you sure as hell won't be able to do it at full distance with a .30 cal battle rifle. It makes sense to qualify on a .22 first, to learn the fundamentals while ammo is cheap, and then once you have that Rifleman's patch, step it up to a battle rifle and qualify with it too.

The Grand Baboon
March 2, 2012, 03:41 PM
Just make sure you know how to run it as a loop sling

Indeed! The way it came from the factory is as shown in the picture. I've been playing around with the proper loop configuration for the past hour or so and I'm blown away by how much it helps in all positions.

mac66
March 2, 2012, 03:55 PM
Two things. Bolt actions can be used for Appleseed. We had a 16 year old last weekend at our shoot score a patch with a bolt action mossberg w/scope. That kid could work that bolt like nobody I ever saw. He said he had been practicing for hours working the bolt. I could tell. He never ran out of time or missed a stage.

Second...the reason Appleseed has so many rimfires in it now is because of the cost of centerfire ammo and the fact they were are getting many more new shooters than before. We used to get mostly gun guys, now we get lots of newbies. It is just easier to learn on rimfires than on big boy guns.

armoredman
March 2, 2012, 04:06 PM
I never have the time or money to get to an Appleseed, dagnabbit. I'd love to shoot one with my vz-58, just for grins and giggles.

henschman
March 2, 2012, 04:40 PM
Heck, the ammo you'd use in your VZ for the weekend would cost more than the Appleseed admission fee! Just sign up for one already! ;)

We always do some extra special stuff for the April 19th weekend, so that would be a great time to go to one.

Yeah zreed, it's a trip the first time you sling up right and see how stable you can be from an unsupported prone position, huh?

ScrapMetalSlug
March 2, 2012, 04:46 PM
You can run any rifle through an appleseed shoot. Preferable, are rifles that are easy to load fast (detachable mags), but a sling is a necessity. A good USGI web sling is preferred but any sling will work. Most of the technique taught is shooting with a sling, so you need one.

A bolt gun will be fine if you are comfortable with it. I went to an Appleseed shoot a couple years ago with a Mosin Nagant 91/30 using 5 round stripper clips and the dog collar sling. The barrel got so hot I could have cooked bacon off of it.:D

IMHO the most ideal and easiest to use rifles in the course would be a semi auto 22 or an AR type rifle.

MythBuster
March 2, 2012, 05:30 PM
"What makes you say that -- the fact that a couple guys were on here talking about .22s to use at an Appleseed?'

Not exactly. Every thread I have seen in the last year or so about Appleseed has been about .22 rifles.

Mostly the Ruger 10-22 and the Marlin that takes detachable mags.

BDrinkard
March 2, 2012, 05:47 PM
I'm also an Appleseed Shoot Boss. There are a lot of good points here. The .22's are getting to be the norm due to cost of ammo and all the new shooters we have. I have literally have had people buy their first rifle friday night and show up on saturday. Most of those people have done great. We always have about 20% centerfire rifles on the line.

I always highly recommend that if you can afford the ammo, bring your AR, AK, M1A HK91 or whatever. You'll roll thru 400-500 rounds in the weekend,but by the end you'll be able to run your "real" rifle hard and reload it in your sleep. It's a great way to get to know our rifle.

I have shot a few Appleseeds with my Garand and a few with a bolt action 8mm Mauser. The bolt gun won't slow you down as much as you think. As long as you can reload it quickly with a box magazine or with stripper clips, you'll be fine.

Have a great time - both the guy who started the thread and the guy bringing his family. It's a great way to spend a weekend. Anybody else reading this thread - sign up for one! You won't regret it.

armoredman
March 2, 2012, 07:05 PM
henschman, I reload 7.62x39mm, so while it would be expensive, not as much as buying a case of Wolf. If I used my CZ527M with it's detachable 5 round mags it would be even cheaper, as I also cast my own bullets that caliber. ;) Cast just doesn't work perfectly in the vz-58 yet.
But enough about that, no Appleseeds around here, was going to try to organize one at the local range, idea fell apart. Oh well.

GCBurner
March 2, 2012, 10:02 PM
I see Appleseed has turned into a rimfire sporter match. That is sort of sad but then again if it is getting people off the bench it is still a good thing.
Recommended ammo supply for the weekend is 400-500 rounds. compare the price of 500 rounds of .22LR to 500 rounds of commercial .308 or .30-06, and you'll see why the small bores are more popular.

Sniderman
March 2, 2012, 10:24 PM
I went to an Appleseed last spring, took my 10-22 with 4 magazines. Our shot count for the weekend was 768 rounds. :what:
( Yeah, one of the insructors kept a tally)
The 4 mags came in very handy when we shot 40 rounds in 4 minutes.
I'm planning another Appleseed this summer & taking the Ruger again...:D

cheesebigot
March 2, 2012, 11:36 PM
Good luck with the Appleseed, hope you get your patch!

Since 7.62x39 is fairly cheap, I considered attending an Appleseed with an SKS. Semi-auto, swivels already installed, "detachable" box magazine, a pile of stripper clips, and a sight adjustment tool might make my Yugo warhorse a nice candidate.

sixgunner455
March 4, 2012, 12:07 PM
We did go yesterday - could only do the one day. My kids had a good time and both learned a lot. My smaller one shot mostly from prone, but did try the transitions and did pretty well. My older one did better on her groups than she's done before when not shooting from a bench.

I ran my Savage MKII bolt action, and it was really interesting. I'd never run a bolt action against the clock before, and so I took too much time on the first stage and didn't get 3 shots off. Running through the second stage as fast as I could run the bolt, I pulled one shot out of the scoring rings. All the rest were solid, and I scored a 208, so ... if I'd gotten off one more shot on stage one and made a 3, I'd have gotten the patch.

I was a bit disappointed that they only had us do one AQT yesterday. They said that they would be spending most of today doing them over and over, and invited me to show up this morning to try again, but I can't go. The shoot boss gave me a card for free entry into any Appleseed until I get the patch, so that was pretty cool of him.

Nice people, very helpful, kids learned a lot about history and shooting. I learned stuff about how better to use a sling, and running my rifle against the clock.

Pat4x4
March 4, 2012, 11:19 PM
Apple-seeds are freaking awesome.. Was not sure what to expect the first time I went but what a good time.. My kids had a good time and it was a such a learning experience other than the marksmanship

CHALK22
March 5, 2012, 12:03 AM
I did my first (and so far only) Appleseed about 2 years ago. I shot a 16" AR-15 with a Dreadnaught muzzle break on it. Yeah, the shooters to the sides ended up farther away from me than when they started....... I am glad I used it. I learned a ton about the gun, and earned my patch, and an orange hat. Funny thing was that NONE of the 10/22s ran reliably all weekend long. Stoppages, misfeeds, jammed mags, you name it. People started swapping ammo all over the place, nobody knew which ammo they brought at the end of the weekend. It was pretty funny. Amazingly enough my AR that everybody scoffed at at the beginning ran over 450 rounds of handloads with nary a problem. She was dirty, but she was happy! two guys had brought M1 Garands! And one lady shot the second day with a Mini-14, and lucky me, she did not want her brass!! At the end of the weekend, an instructor brought out his suppressed .308 bolt gun and shot full size targets @ 300 yds. Headshots.....that guy could shoot.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 01:41 PM
"At the end of the weekend, an instructor brought out his suppressed .308 bolt gun and shot full size targets @ 300 yds. Headshots.....that guy could shoot."

Compared to the bench only shooters trying to shoot appleseed he was good but what he did would be something entirely normal and unnoticed in a group of shooters that have long ago given up bench shooting.

Once you decide to stay off the bench and you spend a lot of time learning real world shooting you will progress to the point to where the things he did would not impress you.

The point I am trying to make is YOU can do the same thing. It is not that hard to do.

henschman
March 5, 2012, 02:00 PM
Sixgunner, sounds like it was a good time had by all. Stick with it... if you shot a 208 on your very first AQT ever, you should be able to get that Rifleman's score without too much trouble at all. Keep doing some dry fire practice at home, and hit the range a little, and I bet the next Appleseed you go to you patch out on your first AQT of the weekend.

You ought to bring a center fire to qualify with for after you do it with your .22. Then you too can be ringing the head-size plate at 300 with ease!

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 04:05 PM
Sometimes the bench only shooters show up to watch one of our smallbore matches or one of our service rifle matches.

They see the tiny prone 100 yard groups we shoot in smallbore with iron sights and the results of our service rifle matches and they think we are some sort of really amazingly gifted shooters.

What they fail to understand is if they got off their bench and sandbags and got used to iron sights and tried to learn real shooting skills they could do it also.

As long as one is addicted to the bench you will never learn real shooting skills.

CraigC
March 5, 2012, 04:21 PM
It's not ideal, as the course was setup around autoloaders but you can certainly take a boltgun and shoot Rifleman with it. You will have certainly earned it, having brought your proficiency at manipulating the rifle quickly up to match your accuracy. I would strongly suggest a good peep sight like the Tech Sights and a good sling. If you use a 1907, which is what I prefer, I would also suggest being accustomed to getting looped up in before your event. I've been to two and have yet to see an instructor teach a student how to use one.


I see Appleseed has turned into a rimfire sporter match.
Not really, you're only competing with yourself.

IMHO, all the constant harping about bench shooters is probably not very productive.

MythBuster
March 5, 2012, 05:38 PM
Does Appleseed teach bench shooting? No they do not.

Why not? Could it be that the whole point of Appleseed is to teach real shooting skills?

If not what is the point? Everyone already knows how to sit on a bench and shoot.

They come to Appleseed to learn something different.

The Grand Baboon
March 6, 2012, 12:40 AM
So I took my M&P 15-22 out to the range on Saturday to get it dialed in...or at least try. For the life of me I couldn't get any groups, even with a great bench rest, less than a minute of an apple at 25 yards. Maybe it's the 40 year old Winchester Super X ammo I'm using, I don't know. I think I'm going to go out on a limb and try some new CCI Blazer and see how it goes. Using my CZ seems more appealing every time I think about it. I would just have to take the plunge and purchase the extra 5 round mag.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 6, 2012, 12:48 AM
What kind of "real shooting skills" are we talking about? And for whom? Hunters? Snipers? Combat? 1916 across the trenches combat or 2012 running through houses and clearing rooms combat?

sixgunner455
March 6, 2012, 12:50 AM
I don't know anything about 40yo .22LR ammo. I ran my Savage with a brand-new brick of Blazer, since it groups that stuff quite well. Right on par with Aguila SuperExtra subsonic, not nearly as good as my little stash of Eley, but more than well enough that the lack of getting the expert score was me, time, and so forth, not the rifle, ammo, or zero.

The thing I learned about doing an AQT with a bolt action, from my vast experience of one, was - on stage one, don't waste time. If you have a shot, don't wait for the wobbles to settle after you hit your natural pause. If it's there, let the shot break. If it's not, then wait, but you don't have a lot of time. You have even less on 2 and 3, and you have to really run that bolt to get all your shots done in time.

A CZ is an accurate rifle. So is my Savage. Accurate beyond what is required, really. If you like your CZ, you should try it. But your MP22 should group, I would think, so don't give up on it, either.

Pat4x4
March 6, 2012, 12:52 AM
Skilled riflemen teach the course.. Skills would be natural point of aim, Correct breathing cadence, Proper body stance in all positions, Proper use of a sling as a tool for more consistent shooting and a better shooting platform, Also How the MOA and MIl system works plus a lot more.. to me the best part is the history lesson that goes along with it.. Makes you feel like a American and proud of it..

Pat4x4
March 6, 2012, 12:58 AM
I like to think about it this way.. Lets hope you never have to be in a situation where you need to defend yourself, Family, or Country.. But Are you going to only take a shot to protect yourself or others if you have a nice steady bench to shoot from? And how about making the most of every shot you have? Skills taught in a Appleseed will make you more proficient and hitting the intended target.. I feel like I have had great skills for many years but I picked up stuff from a Appleseed even though I was just intending it for my kids to learn.. Worth the weekend or even the first day IMO

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 6, 2012, 01:01 AM
So mostly Sniper/SDM stuff? Does Appleseed teach any close quarters combat skills? The last couple times I shot at people, they were pretty close. Granted most of the time they were far away, but that's why we had crew served.

Pat4x4
March 6, 2012, 01:13 AM
No as stated it is about rifle training.. no close quarters combat training and no sniper training.. that goes far beyond rifle training..

sixgunner455
March 6, 2012, 01:15 AM
I think there may be a semantics issue: it's marksmanship training, not tactics training. Though both activities may involve rifles, neither has exclusive rights to call itself rifle training.

Pat4x4
March 6, 2012, 01:15 AM
Check out the link in my sig.. might answer a few questions.. trust me though it is worth going advanced or beginner.. good people, good times..

Pat4x4
March 6, 2012, 01:18 AM
I guess you can call it what ever.. the tool used is a rifle and at a appleseed it teaches proper technique on how to use that tool effectively ..

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 6, 2012, 01:31 AM
I'm not trying to argue, but effectively against whom and where? I've never been, so I can't really be one to judge. But proper stance, uses of a sling, reloading are all tactic-based skills. How one uses a sling while in the prone as an SDM is not how one would use a sling clearing a building. Proper stance is a great thing when shooting qualification tables, but when shooting from a turret or from behind a vehicle tire, mud wall, or around a corner the "proper stance" is the one that gives you the most cover while you can lob rounds at the enemy.

Which brings me back to it just being marksmanship skills. That implies it's about putting a round in a target in the most accurate manner. So why are slings and reloads taught at all?

I get the impression from the Appleseed link in your sig, as well as discussion about it, that there are a number of pseudo-military aspects to Applseed. Offering "boot camps", using Army type qualifications, the focus on "real shooting skills" as opposed to pure-accuracy bench-rest shooting, etc. Why the so many commonalities with military-type training? I support that fully, but if it is going to have a combat-shooting tone, why only teach combat rifle skills of 50 years ago? Is it just for beginners who have never touched a rifle before, with the implication that if one wants to truly learn to fight with their rifle, more true modern combat shooting courses should be considered?

I love long range shooting, and if the my MP company had Designated Marksmen, I would have loved to be one. But for the average soldier, the 300m prone/kneeling qualification table is pretty much the most useless thing they can do with their rifle. It just doesn't have much bearing on anything one actually does when shooting at other people in real life. I guess I'm having a hard time seeing why a course that seems to be trying to teach everyday people pseudo-combat skills, why the least* useful form of combat shooting is the one chosen.

*not useless, just least useful in modern combat for most shooters.

sixgunner455
March 6, 2012, 04:10 AM
Ragnar -

I would say, effectively against targets, no particular target implied. I also don't want to be argumentative, and I'm probably the least qualified guy around to explain Appleseed, but: slings, stances, and reloading are, like putting rounds on targets, not about tactics in any exclusive sense. They are basic shooting skills. Familiarity with the weapon, facility with it, requires you to be able to load, fire, hit your target, reload and do it again. The sling usage taught enhances the hitting. The positions taught are basic: standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone. No mud walls or logs are to be found on the range - but they do discuss how to adapt the basic positions to those situations.

All of the skills taught are basic, perishable skills that many people today do not know. For myself, I personally cannot say that I shot better at the end of the day than I arrived shooting. But there was a young lady who'd never shot before who had clearly improved. My small son's groups shrank to a third their original size, though he still needs to work on consistency. My daughter improved as well, though she is still struggling with something I haven't been able to diagnose as yet.

For myself, my shooting speed with the bolt action improved a bit, but I honestly mostly went for my kids, so that they could experience some things that they never have before.

Appleseed isn't about the highest level of marksmanship possible, nor is it about the highest level of tactical combat skills possible. Both of those require quite a bit of further training, as I am certain that you well know. A one or two-day course can't possibly teach those things to the standards an MP or an infantryman must achieve. It is about basic riflery and marksmanship being taught to the Joe/Jane Average citizen: how to put rounds on target with his/her rifle (not an issued one), to do it well, and how to really run his/her rifle under very mild pressure, with time limits and standards of performance expected.

For you, and honestly for me, the pressure to be found at Appleseed is nothing like what the loud men wearing brown rounds gave us at basic, nor what we got in pre-deployment training, combat warmups for support and combat troops in Kuwait or Fort Bragg, and certainly nothing like what one feels in a guard tower that is taking hostile rounds from without the mud walls and Hescos, or on a patrol that is breaking an ambush.

Military combat training and discipline is not the focus here. Trying to understand it from a combat veteran's perspective is a bit of a stretch until you change your glasses - your focus. In spite of all my previous experience, I did learn things - but one of the IITs asked me, while she was looking at my first and second targets of the day, why I was there, because I clearly already knew how to put rounds on target and manipulate a weapon.

They have a target they call the "redcoat" target. They tell you about what it may have been like for farmers and tradesmen in the colonial militia to come out to protect their munitions from seizure by the British Army, and how someone in that position may have needed to hit a target at various ranges that day, cold and without much advance preparation, and then have you shoot at their "redcoat" target, cold, without zeroing, checking the weapon, or any advance preparation, putting each citizen in that proverbial citizen-militia member's buckled shoes and tri-cornered hat.

I cleaned it. I was the only one on the line to do so. So, when that instructor asked me why I was there, I could see her point. But I had a ready answer in the form of the 15 year old girl and 12 year old boy to my left and right. I was there primarily for my kids, so that they could experience some things that I have experienced, without having to get yelled at or shot at, and without a great deal of financial investment. And by the way, this was some of the least expensive, competent instruction I have ever heard of: all of the cadre are unpaid volunteers, and there are more exceptions to paying or means of paying reduced costs than there are requirements to pay the full tuition - which is cheap, anyway.

I will probably go back and try to get a Rifleman patch. It is, honestly, a small pride thing for me. I have nothing to prove to anyone, really. I have been in the Army, I have an Expert rifle pin, I have been downrange and been shot at, and were it just me, I might let it go. But when I go back, I will be taking my kids, with the hope that they will learn more and improve at the same time as I try to run the bolt on my .22 just a little bit faster and shoot just a little bit straighter, and deal with my sore back just a little bit better, and maybe come away with a patch that says I showed up and did my best to accomplish a goal - and, most importantly, maybe inspire my kids to some competence with arms as well.

I don't think Appleseed is about my kids, honestly, at least, I don't think it is for the program as a whole, or for the staff that ran the Appleseed I went to. But for me, it is. I think it is a program that is about accommodating the needs of each person who comes, and teaching them something about our American heritage in the process.

My son, whose groups shrank so much (and we don't say this out loud, but so much more than his sister's, too), told me this morning that his favorite parts were the discussions of the events of April 19th, 1775. As a kid growing up in Virginia, I got that kind of discussion frequently - pass a battlefield or two on the way to school, and that tends to happen. Around here, we talk about post-Civil War Indian wars, and don't usually even think about the U.S. revolution. Now, my kids are thinking about it, and talking about it, and carrying around patches with drummer boys on them.

I like that, too. I can't think of anything about this experience that I didn't like.

CraigC
March 6, 2012, 08:02 AM
Does Appleseed teach bench shooting? No they do not.

Why not? Could it be that the whole point of Appleseed is to teach real shooting skills?

If not what is the point? Everyone already knows how to sit on a bench and shoot.

They come to Appleseed to learn something different.
I agree with your basic sentiment, all I'm trying to say is that to constantly harp on bench shooting is not productive. People generally don't respond well to ridicule.


I'm not trying to argue...
Are you sure? Appleseed is about basic marksmanship. Not clearing houses or squad tactics. Basic marksmanship. There are a lot of shooters who have never had any formal training, myself included up until two years ago. Appleseed is for them. Appleseed is for relatively new shooters to learn the right way the first time. Appleseed is not for tactics training, paramilitary types, or to prepare you for the SWAT team. However, if you take with you a proper rifle and a teachable atittude, you WILL learn something. I've been shooting all my life and I learned a lot at my first event.


I've never been, so I can't really be one to judge.
Yes, it is always those who have NOT been who are the loudest critics. You probably shouldn't go because you seem to lack the most important component, a teachable attitude. :rolleyes:

Pat4x4
March 6, 2012, 09:16 AM
It sure seems like folks want to argue and make it much more difficult than it needs to be..it is about basic rifle marksmenship, and a interesting history lesson with a opprotunity to meet some real nice people..Don't go if you are expecting anything else!!!!!!! If you shoot well enough you get a rifleman patch.. just that simple..

dovedescending
March 6, 2012, 10:43 AM
I for one can't wait to attend an Appleseed. I hope to go later this year. I know next to nothing about how to manipulate a long arm, having spent all my time studying handguns, and I see Appleseed as a cheap and fun way to get some real training. :)

sixgunner455
March 6, 2012, 11:12 AM
Dove -
90% of the people at my Appleseed had a 10/22, including my daughter. I know of at least 2 people who came with something else who have bought one since.

Just make sure you've got at least 2, 10 round mags, ammo yours functions with, and a sling, and you'll be set - as far as the rifle goes, anyway. :D

I'm going again next month.

henschman
March 6, 2012, 12:45 PM
Ragnar,

Appleseed is a course on the fundamentals of rifle marksmanship. It is pretty much the same curriculum as Marine Corps basic rifle marksmanship, and is also extremely similar to the Army's SDM curriculum. It is designed to teach everyone the skills needed to shoot 4 MOA or better from field positions, which translates into the ability to hit man-sized targets out to 500 yards.

Others might describe it as a course on the "basics," but I think it is more accurate to call it a course on the "fundamentals." Some of the concepts taught are fairly advanced, and are things that most people who go through the military or law enforcement never hear, such as natural point of aim.

Appleseed does not teach close quarters combat techniques. It is geared more toward precision and distance shooting. Kind of like how the Marines start out teaching the course on fundamentals on the square range, and THEN teaches the more dynamic close quarters stuff... Appleseed gives you a strong basis in the fundamentals for wherever else you want to go, whether it would be with close quarters training like a carbine class, or long range precision training, or hunting, or competition, or whatever else you want to do with a rifle. Most of the same fundamentals apply no matter what you're doing... turning your body into the most stable platform possible, natural point of aim, sight alignment, sight picture, respiratory pause, focus on the front sight, trigger squeeze, follow through, target shifts, shooting under time pressure... that type of thing.

And it is not just a course for beginners. Experienced shooters benefit a lot from it too. Everyone can benefit from a good brushing-up on the fundamentals, and from the coaching of experienced instructors. The best shooters in the world will still have bad habits creep into their fundamentals if they don't have regular drilling and coaching. I've had experienced high power competitors tell me Appleseed has helped raise their scores. I've had 3-gun competitors say Appleseed helps them do better, especially on the smaller and longer-range targets. I've heard guys in the military say it made them more effective in combat.

And the fact is that it is not exactly easy to shoot an Expert score on the 25m Army Qual. Test that we use. We use an older version of the test from the 50s and 60s, and it is a little harder than the current one. So if you are a skilled shooter, come out and see how your skills stack up. VERY few shooters qualify on their first test of the weekend, no matter how skilled they are. Even if you qualify fairly easily, I'm sure you will learn at least a few things, and will improve your shooting.

And one of the greatest things about Appleseed is that it is a pro-liberty organization (though it isn't a political organization). We teach some Rev War history with every shoot, and we always emphasize the importance of staying active and involved in promoting liberty, so that we hopefully don't ever wind up in the same place our founding fathers did, with no effective peaceful way of fighting for our liberty.

CraigC
March 6, 2012, 12:49 PM
Exactly! :)

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 6, 2012, 07:06 PM
CraigC:

Don't assume you know anything about me.

CraigC
March 6, 2012, 11:15 PM
I assume nothing, all I go by are the words on the screen. I can tell from your posts that you think you already know everything you need to so don't bother going to an Appleseed.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 6, 2012, 11:36 PM
I can tell from your posts that you think

Care to explain the mechanics of mind reading through internet forums?

CraigC
March 7, 2012, 07:35 AM
I'm reading your words, I don't have to read your mind. :rolleyes:

The Grand Baboon
March 7, 2012, 04:25 PM
So if I do end up taking my bolt gun to the Appleseed course, how many mags should I have? That is, if I have only 5 round magazines.

henschman
March 7, 2012, 05:05 PM
You can get by with 2 mags, if they let you load 5 and 5 on the mag change stages. The most you'll ever shoot in a string of fire is 10 rounds.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 7, 2012, 05:12 PM
These two statements...

I'm reading your words, I don't have to read your mind.

I can tell from your posts that you think...

...cannot both be true.

Mac Attack
March 7, 2012, 05:16 PM
I have been wanting to do a Appleseed event for a couple of years but could not fit one in. Can tube fed rifles be used?

henschman
March 7, 2012, 05:40 PM
Yes, you can use a tube feed... we let you go ahead and fill your tube during the preparation period, so all you have to do when the "load" command is given is put your spring rod in and chamber a round (otherwise tube feeds would fall behind because they are slow to load). Also, on the stages that require a mag change, we let you simulate a mag change by loading one extra round during the preparation period, and when it comes time for the mag change, you break position and eject one round.

Most tube feed rifles have poor factory sights that are short radius and not easily adjustable, so I would recommend some Tech Sights or a scope if you want to get the most out of the weekend. And don't forget a sling. The Uncle Mike's magazine band swivels are a good option for a front swivel. You have to buy some 1 1/4" swivels for it though if you want to be able to use a GI sling.

mac66
March 8, 2012, 03:54 PM
Ragnar,

I see you are in Ann Arbor. We have a number of shoots not too far from you, east of Battle Creek (Bellevue) and one out in Brooklyn (Irish Hills) also a couple in Fenton. Check it out sometime. If you are still active duty/or national guard, law enforcement or a disabled vet it is free.

Ragnar Danneskjold
March 8, 2012, 04:10 PM
Thanks, I think I might do that. Though I don't believe it taking something for free ;)

henschman
March 8, 2012, 04:23 PM
Don't worry Ragnar, we now charge everyone at least a $5 registration fee, so you don't have to worry about feeling like a moocher! ;)

Clipper
March 8, 2012, 05:59 PM
Do you HAVE to use a sling? I hate the things (and yes, I've had military training in their use...Still avoid 'em). I was also going to ask about tube mags (Browning BL-22), but I see it can work.

Caliper_RWVA
March 8, 2012, 08:31 PM
I suppose you don't HAVE to use a sling, but a large portion of the instruction centers around using the sling to steady your shooting position. So expect some kind encouragement to give it another try.

Honestly, I expect you would find it difficult to score an expert, or Riflemans score on the AQT without a sling. There is a reason you will always see a sling on rifles at NRA high power or CMP service rifle matches ;)

BTW: if you are using a tube mag rifle, try and find some sort of speedloader. A straw of the right diameter, or a metal tube from Home Depot or Lowes is all you really need. It just needs to be big enough for a 22LR to slide easily through, and long enough to hold at least 11 cartridges. Just "pour" the rounds into the end of your rifles outer tube and then put the inner tube in.

henschman
March 8, 2012, 09:14 PM
Yeah you can go without a sling, but like BluEyes said, it is pretty hard to get stable enough to shoot Expert without one. Remember, this is a harder AQT than the one the Army uses nowadays. You can try it without one and see how you do, but I would bring one along, just in case.

Clipper
March 9, 2012, 06:48 AM
If I went to one with the Browning it would be to have fun, not to impress anyone with my score (though I'm pretty hot with it and might just do that anyway) and would never consider defacing it with sling swivel studs...Did that with my first BL-22 when I was young and dumb. Never again.

henschman
March 9, 2012, 03:34 PM
You could bring the Browning, and then if you want to try some sling supported shooting, most Instructors have some extra rifles to loan out. That or you could just buy a Marlin 795 for $100, to use at the Appleseed and to give yourself more of a beater .22. They are a pretty decent rifle for the money, and they come with sling studs. Just add swivels, a sling, a cheap scope or Tech Sights, and an extra mag and you are all set.

Clipper
March 9, 2012, 09:09 PM
I repeat...I don't like 'em. Avoid 'em like the veritable PLAGUE.

CraigC
March 10, 2012, 12:51 AM
Then you'll be at a disadvantage as Appleseed teaches use of the sling as a shooting aid and it helps tremendously. You might want to take the opportunity to get over whatever hangup it is you have about slings.

Usagi
March 11, 2012, 03:24 PM
Clipper,

As a man who earned his patch without the sling (and on a tube feed of all things), I suggest bringing one along. AS is completely enamored with sling use. Folks on here and other sites overstate the uses of the sling as a shooting tool. Much of the instruction at an AS event is geared completely around the sling.

The reality is, the sling has only one practical use outside of marksmanship practice, that is highpower competition or similar.

Can you use a sling for other endeavors? Sure.
And you can eat ice cream with a fork, too. Doesn't make it the best tool for the job.

That said, if you do not bring a sling to AS, there is still a lot you can learn. And yes, with proper training, you can easily shoot 210+ without the use of the sling. It is much easier to shoot the score with the sling.

CraigC
March 11, 2012, 03:30 PM
Yes well, I thought that I could shoot just fine without a sling. Until I learned how to shoot with one. The use of the hasty sling can be utilized with virtually any rifle and in virtually any situation.

shrewd
March 11, 2012, 08:14 PM
a plain jane 10/22, marlin, remi...any of the standard semi .22s work just fine.


put some sling studs on there, and but some cheap 50 round boxes of various ammo. High velocity, regular, a few dif grains, brands, just to see what your rifle likes.

mine does just fine with the federal auto match (15ish for 325 rounds)

i put tech sights on it and it was great fun, though frustrating the first time when i didnt get rifleman. i put a cheap scope on it (i still need to do it with irons, though) and just today shot a 226 for rifleman.

have fun dude?

Clipper
March 11, 2012, 10:01 PM
Well guys, I own 1 .22 rifle. I'm not gonna drill holes in that Browning stock for a butt swivel, nor am I gonna put a clamp on my mag tube. Been there, done that with my first BL-22 and never forgave myself. I don't have anything to prove, as I can head shoot squirrels and rabbits from field positions with this rifle at 50 yards as it is. I just thought it might be a fun game to try but I gotta say too many of these posts remind me of the milsurp guys who think it's a sin to sporterize a Mosin (which I also do). Leaves a bad taste in my mouth, so I guess I'll leave it to those who 'know how it's done'.

GCBurner
March 12, 2012, 12:50 AM
People get too hung up on equipment issues. You don't need a custom rifle with a special stock and trigger and expensive sights and match ammo. The basic marksmanship skills taught are designed to apply to any type of rifle, open sights, receiver sights, or scoped, and get the shooter able to shoot a 4 Minute Of Angle group out to 500 meters. The Army Qualification Target was designed around a standard M1 Service Rifle with issue ammo, hence the timed stages that require a mag change with 2 rounds and 8 rounds. A sling certainly makes it easier to hit a 1" target at 25 meters consistently (or a 4" target at 100 meters, or a 20" target at 500), but anybody who can do it without one has my admiration. Part of the history taught at the Appleseed matches is that the original Revolutionary War riflemen were selected for a Rifle company on their ability to hit a head-sized wooden shingle, offhand, no sling, with a flintlock rifle at 250 yards. Those guys could really shoot, and a big part of that was being completely familiar with their own rifles. If you've got a rifle that shoots well for you, that's the one to bring; no need to shell out big bucks for a shiny new toy, unless you just want one. I'm using my old bolt-action Mossberg, which I also used for head shots on squirrels as a kid.

mac66
March 12, 2012, 01:58 PM
Clipper,

What you have would work fine at Appleseed. Seeing that you are in Mt. Morris, we have numerous events in Lapeer Co. & Fenton and one at Linwood Bay/Munger this year. We also have loaner rifles if you want to try something else. The history is pretty cool and it is a fun weekend for the whole family.

Still some openings at Lapeer on March 24-25, Fenton Apr 21-22 and June 16-17. The shoot in Linden is in August.

CraigC
March 12, 2012, 02:45 PM
You don't need a custom rifle with a special stock and trigger and expensive sights and match ammo.
Of course not and no one here suggested anything even remotely so. :confused:

However, it is a major part of the course to learn to shoot with a sling. You can surely shoot without one and that is fine. You'll still learn something but you will be missing a major component of the training. You're better off to go without one than not at all.

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