[Kodiak AK]

Fired into a 5 gal bucket of water from 5 feet above the bucket . ZERO expansion . That can't be good can it?

[Kodiak AK]

Close up.

[mrvickery]

Wow that really sucks. Try the 230 gr. hydra-shock. Where you using their personal defense ammo or full power loads? I've heard the personal defese stuff is pretty anemic.

[Lennyjoe]

Thats why I use Speer Gold Dots;)

[Kodiak AK]

Up until today I was useing the PDA.

[Wiley]

I question if water has the density to cause expansion. As I understand sample bullets are fired into a water tank to get a 'clean' bullet for comparison.

I'm sure someone here has the reciept for ballistic geletin that would provide a better test.

[BluesBear]

Which is why Federal is now advertising the 165gr .45 Hydra-Shok as "Low Recoil".

Nothing has changed except the packaging.

[Lone_Gunman]

I question if water has the density to cause expansion.

Water is dense enough to cause expansion. The bullet just failed to expand.

I'd pick another JHP, or just use FMJ.

[foghornl]

Wow.

Except for the rifling marks, looks unfired.

My .45ACP SD/HD load is the 230Gr Remington "Golden Sabre".

[VaughnT]

The hard lead post in the center is supposed to act as a cylindrical wedge, forcing the water out to the sides and thereby maximizing the chances of expansion, even in less than optimal conditions. Personally, I never subscribed to this theory as the post takes up a lot of room thus minimizing the room available for water to enter.

If you think about it logically, you're just as well off with an open cavity that a lot of water can enter as you are with a cavity that has a built-in obstruction.

I've always liked Speer Gold Dots and have seen them expand reliably in every test done.

[DigMe]

Federal Hydra Shok has shown to have less than reliable expansion in testing through 4-layer denim into a gelatin medium (yes, yes....I know humans are not made of gelatin and blah blah).

brad cook

[clubsoda22]

Switch to Ranger Talons or Gold Dots in 230gr,

[Poodleshooter]

Just because no one else has said it: "This is why you have a .45". :D

[Chupacabra]

ACK! :what:

I have a box of those!

I wouldn't feel "under-gunned" using them (They're still just as good as ball ammo eh?) but I think I'll stick with 230gr Golden Sabres during the next carry ammo rotation.

[shooter1]

Wow!!
If they won't expand in water, they won't expand! I remember the last time I fired a bullet into a five gallon bucket of water. I stood on a step ladder and fired straight down into it. I was using one of the old Silvertips, .45 of course. I got a shower, a bullet expanded to the size of a
nickel, and busted the bottom of the plastic bucket. I would have expected no less from the Hydra Shoks!
Will

[Kodiak AK]

shooter1 I do the same test .:D

In fact I have done this with these same type of rounds before and they worked OK . This one must have been defective , but it is enough to make me not use it anymore . I don't want a defective round showing up when I need it to work.

[George Hill]

You could reload that slug and try it again. ;)

Those Personal Defense loads... not enough grunt behind them. That was apparent to me the first time I saw them. Spendy plinking rounds.

I don't consider these rounds to have any advantage in expansion, but they are some of the more accurate loads available.

[Lone_Gunman]

They're still just as good as ball ammo eh?


Ah, I don't think so for two reasons.

First, they only weight 165 grains and have less cross sectional density than a 230 g FMJ.

Second, JHPs have a higher chance of misfeeding than FMJ's. So if the potential benefit of expansion is removed, you are just stuck with the potentia for poor feeding.

[spacemanspiff]

kodiak, how about this:
shoot into the 5 gallons of water, but have a washcloth floating on surface. that might give it enough resistance to start expansion. would probably also give a better simulation of shooting into flesh. obviously skin/fat/muscle are quite a bit denser than water.
also, what temp was the water? maybe warm it up a bit?

[The Tourist]

George Hill beat me to it.

I'd 'pull' another cartridge with an enertial bullet puller, and then load the original non-expanded slug using the components from the pulled cartridge.

Then I'd fire a few of the original cartridges as a 'control group.'

You might as well. Most places will not accept returns on ammunition. If none of the cartridges expand, I'd rotate the whole box out and put it into your case of 'plinkers.'

I must admit, I use factory hardball, Golden Sabers and Gold Dots for defense. Never had a bad test.

I also reloaded some 185 Noslers, and they flatten. Boy, do they!

[mrvickery]

I thought they all fall to hardball????????????;)

[rdbrowning]

"obviously skin/fat/muscle are quite a bit denser than water"

If this were true, we wouldn't be able to float in water. Muscle is very nearly the same density as water, fat some what less.

[Tim Burke]

My understanding is that water is one of the better mediums for bullet expansion.

[Kcustom45]

Cordex and I enjoy shooting 230gr Hydra-Shoks into a creek that is behind my house. Every one of them have expanded. Some have lost their jackets, but all expanded.

Here is a picture of some of them.
http://24.208.209.169/images/archive/45HydraShokBullets-Water.jpg

[cordex]

Sorry for the poor photography on those ...

[George Hill]

Not much in the way of expansion... and the loss of the jackets is a concern.

This thread is making the Gold Dot all the more attractive.

[BluesBear]

I wouldn't worry about shedding the jackets in water. There;s just not enough material density surrounding the bullet.

Actually, after looking at the expanded bullets I wouldn't worry about the shed jackets in a self defense situation. Just more sharp bits to slice and dice.

[The Tourist]

Mrvickery,

Humor aside, I should have explained myself a bit better.

Yes, I believe that they 'all fall to hardball.' The .45 ACP pistols that guard my home are, in fact, loaded with hardball. My pistols have been given reliability packages by noted gunsmiths, but having one round for them all seemed like a good inventory issue.

My SW .40's all use Golden Sabers. In a trade, I received about a dozen boxes of their 25 per box packs. I'm set for life.

The only good hollowpoint I could find at the time of purchase for my .380 ACP pistol was Gold Dots. I still have about 1/2 box of Blazer Gold Dots in .40 SW.

The thread is about .45's and I should have constrained my comments to that calibre. I'm sorry.

[cratz2]

Personal bias and gut feelings are against the HydraShoks - esp the Personal Defense Loads - for serious use. They are known to be of questionable expansion. Not saying they never expand, but Rangers, Gold Dots, Golden Sabers, CorBons etc tend to expand much more reliably and that is what I would carry if given the choice.

The thing with the HydraShoks is they tend to penetrate as well as ball ammo (at least the 230 Gr HSs) and still have a decent chance of expansion. They also tend to feed pretty well in many guns like early 90s Colt 1991s and Hi Points that aren't known for feeding every single HP around. And many agencies still issue them.

I don't think they're a terrible choice though they would be chosen after the loads I listed above. And I would rather have them in 230 Gr.

[Moondancer]

I have always used a series of plastic gallon milk jugs filled with water in a row. Other than some hot-loaded .45 LC semi-wadcutters (hot enough I couldn't crimp them enough to keep them in the case under recoil :what: ) I've never needed more than six to stop handgun bullets.

[Kodiak AK]

spacemanspiff and Kcustom45

The other six in the mag expanded OK , but this one did not . Like I said this one must have been defective or something . I Personaly don't want to take the chance that another defective one will be in the pipe when I need them protect me .Call me weird , but I like the deck stack as far in my favor as I can get .:o

[shooter1]

The more I hear about bullet expansion, penetration tests, blended metal technology and all the other hype, the more I just want to load up with ball and forget it! You can pretty wll count on two holes anyway!
Will

[tex_n_cal]

What length barrel was the subject bullet fired from?

It is known that short barrels give marginal expansion in .45's, compared to the 1911 standard 5"

[Kodiak AK]

tex_n_cal
Comander length . Marginal expasion I could deal with but zero?:scrutiny:

[Double Maduro]

Water has a density of 1. This means you cannot compress it. You can put it under pressure but you can't make it smaller. This is from a hydrologist friend of mine.

The human body is about 80% water, should be a good test for expansion.

Putting a washcloth on top of the water may actually slow down expansion. The cloth can clog up the hole and prevent water from entering. This is why so many rounds that perform well in bare geletin don't work if it is covered with cloth.

I also believe that if you fire enough rounds from any manufacturer that you will eventually get a bad one.

DM

[sumpnz]

Water is compressible. It just takes about 200 atms to see 5% compression (that's the threshold for what's considered measurable). Assuming that the tip of a 230gr .45 gives a .225" effective bearing surface, a velocity of 1000 fps and .005 sec implus time, the pressure at the time of initial imapct would be ~60 atms.

[Jim March]

I've been complaining about Federal horsepower levels for some time now, esp. in 38+P, 44Spl, 32Mag and 357. Looks like we can add 45ACP to the list?

From a revolver forum post by me just a few days ago:

---------
I can't explain it, except that maybe the Federal ammo intended for law enforcement is WAY hotter than "civilian issue" (and yes, I know that's an improper term, it expresses how some think).

Example: Federal used to make a lead hollowpoint 158 38+P load, as Winnie and Remmie do now. Federal's version can't break 800fps from a 2" barrel, some reports have clocked it down around 750. The Winnies usually pull 825 - 850ish depending on the gun, Remmies another 25fps or so.

This makes a difference, folks. A big difference.

Another example: Federal made up a 110 Hydrashock in 38spl standard pressure with a big JHP cavity, advertized as "tuned for max performance in snubbies". Yea, RIGHT. The crap needed a tailwind to see 775fps. That is just GODAWFUL performance, folks. It LOOKED great, and probably spawned the Winnie 130 Supreme +P and Gold Dot 135 as "visual copycats" - but Winchester and Speer offer honest performance, I'd trust my life to either load with the 135 looking better mebbe.

I could go on for days. Federal *stinks*. They're rolling along on the Hydrashock's reputation, back when it was the first really state-of-the-art JHP. The Gold Dot and MANY others have since kicked it's butt, esp. when combined with honest powder charges instead of whateverthehell they're sticking in there instead of bangstuff.

Sorry if I sound "heated" but there's NO excuse for what they're doing and they're gonna get people killed with failures to stop. They're profiting from the sales of shoddily designed garbage.
---------

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83763

Upshot: I've seen too many horror stories now. I will *never* load a Federal bullet in any gun of mine that might be fired "in anger" and I'm even mad enough to boycott their practice ammo at this point just in protest.

:fire:

[WonderNine]

Hydra-Shoks don't expand, they just look nasty, that's about all.

[BluesBear]

I agree with Jim's observations that some Federal ammo is lacking in stamina.

In the 2004 Federal Law Enforcement Ammunition catalogue some of their ammo, such as the .45acp 165gr Hydra-Shok, is now labeled "Reduced Recoil" in their new packaging.

We all know that "reduced recoil" really means "reduced muzzle velocity".


Personally I still think there are some good Federal loadings available.
You just have to search to find out which ones.

[mete]

The HS 230 in 45acp is a very popular police round so it can't be so bad . I carry 40cal 155 HS and it certainly works on things like woodchucks. Maybe you should try these rounds on live things instead of water unless you really fear attack by water buckets !!

[MrPink]

Well, look at it this way, its 45 cal. so its starting out with a bigger hole to begin with. I use to use Federal 230HS, but now pretty much use Golddot 200+P

[halvey]

Interesing reading. It's too bad about this since I was going to switch over to the 165 gr Federal as soon as I could make it to the gunstore.

I happened upon a site last night that tested ammo in much the same way as Ammolab. Can't remember the site, but I can check at home and post it later. Anyway, they used milkjugs of water and the diagram even pointed out the way the bullet entered and the direction the fragments broke off. They tested some super light .45 ammo (90 gr and 117 gr) and although they had a ton of speed, penetration was minimal in many cases.

One of the better results came from Hornandy 185 JHP which had 23" of penetration, retained 182 gr of it's weight and expanded pretty well. I'm sure there were better results, but since I reload for this one, I'll stick with it :D

I did feel a little uneasy about 23" of penetration since I would think one would have to worry about OVERpenetration, but I rememger reading a thread on this board about 230gr ball ammo. It was some ER doctors who basically they said the ball ammo enters and bounces around the body cavity causing a lot more damage than expanding bullets. Very rarely does it go through the body. FWIW.

[WonderNine]

Somebody here was involved in a shooting in which their 230gr. Hydra-Shoks did not expand. I believe they switched to Gold Dots.

[Kodiak AK]

Wow I haven't posted here in four months .:o


So far all I have switched to is Hard ball . At least it is 230grains instead of 165. Everybody in town only caries Federal holow points . I wsh I could find some of the Blazer flying ashtrays but it is not happeneing . Next time I pop over to Anchorage I am going to have to go bug Wild an pick up some decent ammo .

[OF]

Federal HS was all the rage many years ago, but it's an old design, has always had expansion problems and has been surpassed by better modern designs. 230gr. Gold Dot (ProLoad or Speer) or Winchester Ranger Talon (not the SXT crap) in standard or +P pressures is what you want to be carrying in .45

The Ranger T is pretty much the stuff to have in any caliber.

- Gabe

[WonderNine]

I always wondered what kind of penetration a 165gr. .45ACP hollowpoint has. Must be incredibly low...

[84B20]

I'm coming in late to this thread; I just recently joined the board. I glad to read the comments about Federal Hydra Shoks, because that's what I've been using lately. Probably no more. I was lead to believe they were among the best self defense round available. I guess not, from what I've been reading.

I haven't had these for a long time and won't still because of the mystique around them, but I thought it would be interesting to show anyway:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a75/ricklevine/BlackTalon.jpg
This is what a Black Talon .45ACP looks like after being shot into a 55 gallon drum of water.

[JohnKSa]

The HS 230 in 45acp is a very popular police round so it can't be so bad .NYPD, one of the largest PDs in the U.S., was using FMJ as late as the 1990s. I don't really think that what LE does or doesn't use is a great measure of effectiveness.I carry 40cal 155 HS and it certainly works on things like woodchucks. Maybe you should try these rounds on live things instead of water unless you really fear attack by water buckets !!Well, I wouldn't say I fear water bucket attacks, but they do kill a lot more toddlers each year than woodchucks do... :D

[ShelbyV8]

The post was supposed to keep the bullet going straight after it expanded. In the FBI tests they had to remove the post to get it to expand. All LE agencies I know of use Gold Dots in what ever caliber they use.

[Hypnogator]

165-gr .45 = Flying Flapjack :D

Personal Defense Ammo = I'm too much of a wussy to handle a real load. :evil:

[bpisler]

Years ago i took some 230gr hydra
shoks and removed the posts.I shot
these into some really soaked wet
pack along with unaltered rounds.
The altered rounds seemed to
expand better than the others.All
rounds were fired at 10 ft at a
slight downward angle.

[RavenVT100]

Jacket shedding may not be high on the priority list, but as an interesting bit of trivia, it is a big concern among trauma surgeons: Especially in places like South Africa, where the rate of HIV infection is enormous. The shed jacket is very sharp and can easily cut an operating surgeon's hand. It must be handled with extreme caution.

[Double Naught Spy]

I have seen a variety of expansion tests over the years and have come up with these considerations concerning hollowpoint or EFMJ expansion. When trying to determine if a given type of hollowpoint or EFMJ is going to expand, there is no substitute for real flesh, but folks keep trying new things or repeating old things with the assumption that such materials are a reasonable, adequate, or representative substitute. Most of the time, these alternatives seemed to be used because the person doing the testing doesn't know about ballistic gel, known how to make it, or doesn't want to go to the trouble. Properly calibrated ballistic gel is about the best substitute and even then it has shortcomings. Problematic materials include...

Water
Telephone poles
Railroad ties
Dry newspaper
Wet newspaper
Dry telephone books
Wet telephone books
Dry cardboard
Wet cardboard
Rubber
Rubber foam
Multiple plastic milk jugs with water (of all things, recent issues of Gun Tests have the shooters using plastic milk jugs to determine performance and they have made the claim that plastic milk jugs are a good substitute for ballistic gel...which is a load of pooh)
Mulitple cardboard milk just with water
Drywall
Plywood
Modeling clay
Sand bags of sand
Dirt (shooting into ground)

Besides, do you really want defensive ammo that expands in water? Think about all the SHTF scenarios and threats from the water. You may need to shooting invading frogmen as they attempt to surface near you home on the coast. You may need to shoot an alligator in the water. If you go with Speer Gold Dots, then you get all that expansion and the slug hits the intended target already expanded and then fails to penetrate. Now what good is that?

[StrikeEagle]

Ok, this is evil news to me. HS 230 is my standard .45 defense load, and has been for years. :p

If I move to Gold Dot, I'd be inclined to bite on the 230 grain stuff. In the back of my aging bald head I have the idea that the .45 was designed for that weight and the recoil impulses will give more reliable functioning.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=695547

or do you folks favor the 200 +P

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=636613

Has anyone here chronied these? Or the HS 230 for that matter?

StrikeEagle

[BluesBear]

Years ago... 230gr hydra
shoks and removed the posts... really soaked wet
pack... altered rounds seemed to
expand better than the others.Wet pack bears absolutely no resemblance to human tissue.
And the fact that they "seemed" to perform better is immaterial unless we know how far the pentrated.

And don't forget that the Hydra-Shok bullet has been "refined" about three times during it's production life. The expansion characteristics are subtly changed each time.

[Dr.Rob]

Federal HS 230 gr clocks at 850fps from my 5 inch Government Model, 830-840 from my 1917 New Service, about the same from my Commander model.

Federal's ammo is some of the most consistant on the chrono.

The 230/45 HS is a good round... what I can't understand is why anyone would fire a bullet into a 5 gal. bucket and NOT expect it to go all the way through... a 55 gal drum I can understand.

I also find it unusual that the 230/45 load was a 'proven manstopper' in FBI/Cop tests etc. a few years back and now some are acting like it won't crack a walnut if you dropped it from orbit. That's Marketing hype.

[dasmi]

Crap. I've got 158 gr. Hydra-shocks in m Service Six right now. Guess it's time to go shopping again.

The more I hear about bullet expansion, penetration tests, blended metal technology and all the other hype, the more I just want to load up with ball and forget it!
+1 on that.

[MICHAEL T]

This is why I now use the DPX rounds by CorBon in my 45's

[possum]

I think if you are gonna carry a pistol or have one for self defense you should have the best stuff possible, because you want to make sure that they are gonna do the job. no box of ammo is to expensive to save you or the ones you love if God for bid the time comes. I use Hornaday xtp's in all my pistols my carry pistol is an xd. i would highly recomend them to anyone wanting good hd/sd ammo. The Golden Sabers are also very good from what I hear but I have not done any test of my own on them.

[jason10mm]

"obviously skin/fat/muscle are quite a bit denser than water"

If this were true, we wouldn't be able to float in water. Muscle is very nearly the same density as water, fat some what less.

Well, I don't know about you, but if I go swimming and empty my lungs, I SINK! I only float if I have pretty full lungs. Muscle is denser than water, but fat is not. But any piece of fabric "floating" on the surface is NOT denser than water :) Maybe slap a nice porterhouse on top, then shoot through that :evil:

[BluesBear]

There sure have been plenty of expanded Hydra-Shok bullets recovered during autopsies over the past twenty years.

Of course there have been some failures with XTP, Gold Dot and Golden Sabre as well.

There is no magic, works every time, penetrates any barrier, expands in every badguy but not in the good guy bullet.

Hell's Bells™ people get a clue. There ain't no perfect bullet. Pick one of the big name brands and learn to shoot it well enough that you can hit the bad guys G-spot again and again. (G is for GONE :evil: )

The sooner everyone stops relying on the bullet to magically compensate for poor shooting skills the sooner everyone will be safer.

And remember that, when using a handgun, anyone who needs to be shot usually needs to be shot more than once.


Practice Safe,
Practice Hard,
Practice Often
(and quit making excuses)

[Hypnogator]

The sooner everyone stops relying on the bullet to magically compensate for poor shooting skills the sooner everyone will be safer.
The ultimate piece of wisdom emerges in this thread. :D

[chris in va]

I really have to disagree though. It's not 'poor shooting skills' if a BG comes up to you for a nice carjacking and you have about a second to yank that sidearm out for defense and hit him...anywhere. Many, many accounts of actual shootings involve no aiming whatsoever. Point, pull.

[Double Maduro]

Many, many accounts of actual shootings involve no aiming whatsoever. Point, pull.

Chris,

That's why there are many, many accounts of good guys shooting their guns dry, without hitting the bad guy, and then being killed by the bg.

If you are aware of your surroundings you will not be surprised by a carjacker suddenly appearing at your window. And when you are stopped at a traffic light, your windows should be up and your doors locked. Yeah, it's inconvenient, but so are funerals.

I am enjoying the balistics in this thread. But it has me wondering.

If you want to shoot a 9mm weight projectile at 9mm speeds, why don't you just get a 9mm?:neener:

DM

[Missouri Mule]

Which is why Federal is now advertising the 165gr .45 Hydra-Shok as "Low Recoil".



Actually federal designed it for all of those HeMan types over at GT who are always whining about their G36's massive recoil.:evil:

[Longbow]

And don't forget that the Hydra-Shok bullet has been "refined" about three times during it's production life. The expansion characteristics are subtly changed each time.

' agree, I think the older HS (80's-early 90's) are the best ones. Stay away from those "Personal Defense" labels.

[meef]

Well, if I ever get shot, I hope I get shot with one of those because it obviously isn't going to put much of a hurting on me.

:rolleyes: