Do armed criminals usually fight or run when the intended victim pulls a firearm?


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soonerboomer
March 2, 2012, 07:04 PM
Through news sources I'll hear of people, home owners, shop owners, etc who defend themselves with a firearm. It seems to me, more often than not, that once a firearm is presented in self defense that most criminals run away.
Anyone have the facts on this? Do armed criminals usually fight or run when their intended victim presents a firearm in self-defense?

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heeler
March 2, 2012, 07:10 PM
Depends on the criminal really.
I just read a very lengthy thread over at AR15.com in which the criminal at nearly point blank range engaged the armed good guy until the bad guy was out of ammo.
Good guy was shot up pretty good but did manage to at least wound the bad guy which lead to his arrest after the police followed his blood trail to his hideout.

JustinJ
March 2, 2012, 07:19 PM
Most of the accounts i've read of criminals firing back were as they tried to make their exit such as when when attempting to rob a store. A criminal's number one goal is to not get caught so i think most fight when its needed to make an escape. The NRA has a website full of accounts of citizens using guns to defend themselves and the criminals flee ASAP in the vast majority. Of course thats not a universal rule and one shouldn't count on it.

jscott
March 2, 2012, 07:34 PM
Many years of experience in law enforcement tells me that there is a significant percentage of the criminal population that cares not one bit about whether or not you are armed. Not a majority mind you, but significant enough to be a factor.

You can attribute it to drugs in many cases, but truly it is simply that the established criminal is used to getting into fights and confrontations. Your pointing a weapon at them is not likely to be their first. They are not like us. They do not consider consequences nor contemplate the implications of losing a life. Criminals generally don't have a lot to live for. Many don't care if they live another day. Even when they do, many are still inclined to call your bluff.

Many criminals are simply not persuaded, nor intimidated, by the prospect of looking down the business end of a firearm. This is especially true if your firearm is dimunitive in size. It may still be effective in all regards, but it is even less likely to have a persuasive psychological effect on an adversary who is not easily persuaded to begin with. Like it or not, your opponents immediate evaluation of you, including the weapon you possess, dictates the way that they will respond to you. Sometimes it doesn't matter and they stick around anyway.

I remember chasing down a suspect that had just assaulted another officer and attempted to take his firearm. I caught up to him in an open field and drew down on him. He turned, stared me down, and said, "Shoot...... shoot. I'm not scared," only perhaps not as politely as that. He advanced on me, undeterred by a .40 caliber Glock. As he kept advancing on me another officer snuck up behind him and helped him to the ground.

That is only to say that, while I would agree that most indeed turn tail and run like the cowards that they are, that is not true in all cases. The number that are willing to stick it out and see what you are made of is significant enough to not be an anomaly.

mgkdrgn
March 2, 2012, 07:35 PM
Criminals are by nature cowards, and much prefer to prey on the weak and defenseless.

When confronted with forceful resistance, esp armed resistance, most will book. Doesn't mean they won't try and get off a cheap shot on the way out though. Don't pull a gun unless you intend to use it, then don't stop using it until the job is done (ie, stop the attack/threat)

Loosedhorse
March 2, 2012, 07:53 PM
If the answer is run, does that mean I should carry my gun unloaded? ;):D

Companion question: do most criminals give up or keep trying to kill you when you shoot them? Hey, I'm a fan of idle curiosity: if we're just guessing on a question, the answer for which has no practical significance, well, fine.

chhodge69
March 2, 2012, 07:56 PM
nvm

ThorinNNY
March 2, 2012, 08:01 PM
I`d say all bets as to likely behavior are off if the criminal is drunk,on drugs or crazy or often either crazy and drunk or crazy and on drugs or crazy, drunk AND on drugs.

Murphy4570
March 2, 2012, 08:14 PM
Some men just want to watch the world burn.

http://youtu.be/5q3z4IP_nNU

CheckFire
March 2, 2012, 08:36 PM
Initial response: "Shoot faster!"
I didn't KNOW if he was gonna run or fight, and I chose not to give him the luxury of making that decision at my peril.

Jscott--- Useful Assessment and of High Value, Sir!

Panzercat
March 2, 2012, 08:38 PM
Many years of experience in law enforcement tells me that there is a significant percentage of the criminal population that cares not one bit about whether or not you are armed. Not a majority mind you, but significant enough to be a factor.

...I remember chasing down a suspect that had just assaulted another officer and attempted to take his firearm. I caught up to him in an open field and drew down on him. He turned, stared me down, and said, "Shoot...... shoot. I'm not scared," only perhaps not as politely as that. He advanced on me, undeterred by a .40 caliber Glock. As he kept advancing on me another officer snuck up behind him and helped him to the ground.

Not to contradict your direct experience, but I have to note the anecdote provided has you chasing down the perp first and forcing a confrontation second, all but supporting the op's supposition even as you attempt to provide an example of alternate behavior. You chased the perp into a field- fleeing against your force of arms -until he was in the open and ran out of tactical options. Confronting you was his only choice after running failed.

"When you surround an army, leave an outlet free. Do not press a desperate foe too hard.”
― Sun Tzu

Applies to 600bc Chinese hordes and modern day criminals alike.

Teachu2
March 2, 2012, 08:52 PM
And he was fleeing arrest. Most perps have no desire to shoot it out with cops - it never ends well for them.

allaroundhunter
March 2, 2012, 08:58 PM
I forget the exact number, but there have been studies done where a large percentage (over 80% I believe) of criminals said they would completely avoid a target if they knew said target was armed. If the criminal is also armed, most of what I have heard/read is that they also fire their weapon as they are trying to escape....so even if they are fleeing, be prepared to have to fire.

Criminals do not want to be shot any more than we do, and they make their money by preying on those who cannot defend themselves. They will take the easy money over the visit to the hospital or morgue any day.

That is only to say that, while I would agree that most indeed turn tail and run like the cowards that they are, that is not true in all cases. The number that are willing to stick it out and see what you are made of is significant enough to not be an anomaly.

jscott, he did run, but being an LEO you were tasked with chasing him. That changes the scenario completely. He did not want your gun pointed at him at all or to be arrested, that is why he ran in the first place. If it was a civilian that he had the confrontation with, as soon as a firearm came out that guy would have been long gone, and the civilian would not have been legally allowed to follow.

Countryboy7
March 2, 2012, 08:59 PM
Im doing research for a school paper over how gun control is bad and I found that Switzerland is the safest place in the world. That website also told me most households there have a assault rifle and pretty much everybody has Atleast 1 firearm

X-Rap
March 2, 2012, 09:00 PM
There are sociopaths in the criminal element that have no aversion at all to shooting, stabbing or lighting you on fire. I try to prepare for these and if they run instead it's a bonus.
These people aren't like us and killing and maiming doesn't have an effect on them.

allaroundhunter
March 2, 2012, 09:08 PM
Im doing research for a school paper over how gun control is bad and I found that Switzerland is the safest place in the world. That website also told me most households there have a assault rifle and pretty much everybody has Atleast 1 firearm

This is true, and it is very good reasoning against gun control. It is evidence that is very hard for the Brady Bunch to refute

ConstitutionCowboy
March 2, 2012, 09:09 PM
Do armed criminals usually fight or run when the intended victim pulls a firearm?

Yes.

Woody

hermannr
March 2, 2012, 09:14 PM
There has only been one time in the over 40 years I have carried that my carry (OC) may have influenced the outcome. The BG reached into my car and if to grab me and pull me out, but then very quickly thought better of it and ran...

Was it because he saw my carry? Can't say for sure, but I do know a very baligerant BG changed his mind awful fast. (I never did pull the gun out of the holster...I am of the opinion, if it ever comes out of the holster, it will go bang...and I wasn't quite to that point of fear for my life yet)

Countryboy7
March 2, 2012, 09:15 PM
Yes I have a lot of good points against gun control in this paper. But I think it would cause civil war? But my teacher told me I was crazy haha. What do you all think?

DHJenkins
March 2, 2012, 09:17 PM
It really makes no difference how "most", "some", "a few" or "hardly any" armed criminals react to being drawn down on, because their are always exceptions.

The golden rule is simple: Never, ever, expect a BG to be impressed, frightened or deterred by your firearm.

When you draw your weapon, you must do so with the will and intent to use it if necessary; drawing to scare or intimidate is pure folly.

hermannr
March 2, 2012, 09:17 PM
There has only been one time in the over 40 years I have carried that my carry (OC) may have influenced the outcome. The BG reached into my car as if to grab me and pull me out, but then very quickly thought better of it and ran...

Was it because he saw my carry? Can't say for sure, but I do know one very baligerant BG changed his mind awful fast. (I never did pull the gun out of the holster...I am of the opinion, if it ever comes out of the holster, it will go bang...and I wasn't quite to that point of fear for my life yet)

SaxonPig
March 2, 2012, 09:21 PM
Vast majority of criminals are cowards. From what I see and read crooks run and at best snap a shot or two over the shoulder as they run. I have never heard of a criminal standing his ground in a firefight.

Countryboy7
March 2, 2012, 09:24 PM
Around here if someone is stealing out of the barn or something we just shoot one off and they take off running.

alsaqr
March 2, 2012, 09:41 PM
Sometimes they fight, sometimes they run and sometimes they get shot.

exbrit49
March 2, 2012, 09:44 PM
My own experience was that the would be robber ran.
About 15 years ago I was on an interstate about 11:30 PM one night returning from a business meeting. I had drunk an overabundance of coffee and finally had to make a pit stop at a remote rest area. Two truckers were just leaving the menís room as I walked in. There was another individual in the restroom, bent over tying a shoelace. I took care of my business, but as I turned round; the guy stood up and said "Got change for a twenty?" My answer was "Sorry, I donít carry cash." He then asked if I could change a ten". Hairs were standing up on my neck by this time and I stood right where I was and said again " I donít carry any cash!" The response was ďI want money!" at the same time, he pulled a knife. Despite being scared out of my wits I immediately pulled my Charter Arms .357 from my shoulder holster from under my suit jacket.
It was a standoff for about a second or so, I already had the hammer cocked back and the barrel aimed right at his forehead and I was ready to fire if he moved an inch closer.
Luckily he screamed M.F. and ran like a bat out of hell for the door.
I stood there for what seemed an eternity with my heart beating so fast I thought it would pop out of my chest. I gradually calmed down and then had to figure out where he was. I slowly went to the door and opened it and watching very carefully, got back to my car.
I was able to give the police a good description of the individual and statement about what had happened. I never heard any more, so I assume that he probably wasnít caught. In discussing this with the police, they said it probably scared the heck out of him and he might be unlikely to try it again. There was no comment about my carrying and my response to the threat. Although nothing was said, it seemed that they were pleased that I had been able to fend off a potential robbery or worse. I have to admit I think I was still shaking 15 minutes later.
So yes, in this instance, the bad guy stopped and ran. I felt lucky and was thankful for all the hours I have spent on the range and familiarity with firearms. One last thing, at that time I had held a CCW permit for well over 10 years. When I first got that CCW, I remember thinking, if you ever have to pull it in defense, be prepared to use it! I was, and I think that on that night, it showed on my face.
Not a pleasant experience and one that I would rather not go through again. I was grateful that I didnít have to pull the trigger but I would have done if needed! It felt good to know that all those hours on the target range had prepared me for whatever I needed to do!

Countryboy7
March 2, 2012, 09:49 PM
Interesting story exbrit, must have been one hell of a adrenaline rush

Ignition Override
March 2, 2012, 09:53 PM
jscott:

It's always interesting to read comments from any officer who spends his working days trying to control society's leeches, and get the more dangerous two-legged animals off of our streets, back into their cages.

Thank you very much.

Zombiphobia
March 2, 2012, 10:05 PM
Criminals are by nature cowards

Someone watches America's Most Wanted a bit too much.

To risk being shot by a store owner, or slashed with a razor by the girl who's car they're jacking, or shot by guards when they rob an armored car, or even the enforcers working for organized crime groups. Yeah, they're cowards too, the whole lot of 'em. None of it requires nerve.

Criminals may be alot of things, but to say they're all cowards by nature is a bit ignorant.

Edit: The guy who mentioned the sociopath/psychopath factor; good job.

Panzercat
March 2, 2012, 10:30 PM
Yeah, don't mistake expediency for cowardliness. Criminals are there to get a paid by employing the least amount of effort possible in order to do so. The moment you increase the effort required- in this case to lethal outcomes -the risk vs reward benefits becomes vastly skewed against them. A firearm means possibly getting shot at, possibly getting wounded, possibly getting killed. A firearm being discharged attracts attention to their activities; up to and including police. Engaging somebody with a firearm simply isn't worth the trouble or consequences. Risk vs reward is a parallel that can be drawn in crime and sales.

Swap that scenario out with a baseball bat or a stungun might change the perp's outlook on whether he can take you or not. Or maybe you just don't look confident enough to pull the trigger in some cases. Your firearm works by and large because it represents an overwhelming and supremely lethal advantage. There are other fish in the sea that won't shoot back, so why bother?

For a criminal to continue his assault in the face of firearms generally indicates:
-Natural or chemically induced mental instability.
-You not looking confident enough to pull down (roll for charisma and initiative).
-Payday worth the risk (you know who you are, or should).
-No avenue of retreat.
-Any combination of the above.

jbrown50
March 2, 2012, 11:48 PM
It's extremely naive to think that all criminals are going to turn and run at the mere sight of your gun or it's bullets coming at them.

If your plan is to just scare an attacker with your gun, and you're counting on that to work every time, then you need to put your gun up. There are plenty of psychopaths and sociopaths out there who won't hesitate to call your bluff.

jscott
March 2, 2012, 11:53 PM
Not to contradict your direct experience, but I have to note the anecdote provided has you chasing down the perp first and forcing a confrontation second, all but supporting the op's supposition even as you attempt to provide an example of alternate behavior.

Not so. He was not fleeing the prospect of being shot. He was fleeing the prospect of going to jail. He didn't care if he was to be shot. He was inviting it. He simply didn't want to lose his freedom.

That may sound odd to you but it's the truth and it is a rather common theme amongst the criminal element. Since criminals have little fear of a private citizen arresting them, you need only be concerned with whether or not they care about being shot. Many don't.

exavid
March 3, 2012, 12:20 AM
Seems like a useless question, you'll find out when you face the situation. In the meantime one had better expect the robber to be armed and ready to shoot you so act accordingly. If you're wrong, you'll still be standing. If you're right and lucky you'll still be standing. With a mindset of anything else you may not be standing.

Panzercat
March 3, 2012, 01:29 AM
Not so. He was not fleeing the prospect of being shot. He was fleeing the prospect of going to jail. He didn't care if he was to be shot. He was inviting it. He simply didn't want to lose his freedom.

That may sound odd to you but it's the truth and it is a rather common theme amongst the criminal element. Since criminals have little fear of a private citizen arresting them, you need only be concerned with whether or not they care about being shot. Many don't.
Fair enough, but that's also implicit in the average citizen pulling a firearm on any criminal. The moment a gun is brought into play, he faces injury, death and at very least immediate exposure that will potential land him in jail.

More to the point, it's not your good looks the perp is running from in that field. The threat of jail is backed up by force of arms. That pistol strapped to your belt. He's running because you have imminent and immediate authority to enforce your will upon his person all the way up to lethal measures. I'm sure "jail! jail! jail!" is humming in the back of their mind, but you are the manifestation of that. Likewise, it's really more complicated than that as a LEO. Being experienced as you say these people are, he undoubtedly knows that until he makes a big enough nuisance of himself, you won't- sometimes can't -fire upon him. Why not try his luck in getting away? Even when he was stopped in the field and out of options, you chose to allow another officer the risk of bodily harm to apprehend him instead of choosing the safer alternative for both of you; that is to say drop him with a bullet. I'd risk a confrontation too if I knew you couldn't or wouldn't fire upon me; at very least to buy time.

Before we go any further, I would like to make it clear there's nothing wrong with that nor am I making a judgement call.

I would, however, submit that your experience colors you to a different type of engagement than the average citizen has to face as your last statement indicates. I would also submit that any perp would be less willing to run if you didn't have a gun. The threat of jail is only worth something if you can back it up and I'm willing to bet a significantly higher chunk of the criminal population would take there chances in a physical confrontation with a minimally armed police force before feeling the need to run in the first place. Again, if that wasn't so, logic says you wouldn't need a sidearm in the first place. You could simply admonish them with a stern warning concerning jail time and be on your way. You have far more complex rules of engagement than the average citizen. You know it. Your experienced criminal knows it. It changes the setup radically.

Anyway, no need to beat my POV into the ground. I only saw drunks on shore patrol; hardly real law enforcement experience :p

murf
March 3, 2012, 01:48 AM
not one mention of the miami shootout.

murf

Trunk Monkey
March 3, 2012, 11:53 AM
I would think it would be safer to assume that the criminal is going to fight, that way you're not caught off guard if he does.

BSA1
March 3, 2012, 12:19 PM
Do armed criminals usually fight or run when the intended victim pulls a firearm?

Absolutely! Wolves prefer unarmed sheep. exbrit49 story is a good example of a typical armed encounter. The only thing I would have done different is not waste my time calling the police and get back on the road.

Research is hard to come by in this area since most civilian armed encounters end without shots being fired and the civiliangoing back to his businessw oithout calling the police. Dr. Gary Kleck has done some research in this are which you may find of interest.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html

The Lone Haranguer
March 3, 2012, 01:42 PM
I think it is probable, but don't count on it. To use an analogy, the sound of a pump shotgun racking may scare them off, but that doesn't mean you don't need shells in it. Be ready to take appropriate followup action (aka Condition Red).

gym
March 3, 2012, 01:50 PM
Don't assume that a bad guy is going to run away, you could be "dead wrong". If you are dealing with a "predicate felon", who if caught will do life on his multiple felonies, he will not go quietlly. Be ready to fire, don't engage in a discussion, just something like, drop your weapon now, or I will shoot you. Sit down, keep your hands where I can see them, and sit on them, if you move, you will get shot. Secure him if possible.
Don't get into a conversation as you don't know if he's stalling for time while his buddy flanks you, and your done for. If he's smart, he may drop the gun and run away, which puts you in a bad position, he's now unarmed and there is no threat, "unless he's in your house or on your property". It's still hard to convince anyone you had to shoot a fleeing suspect.
There are a lot of bad guys out there with a big set. They don't all give up, they probe your weakness,while one is talking, if they can engage you, they may con you into taking your mind off what you were doing, and turn the tables, also, they may think after sizing you up, that they can still take you, gun or not. Plus the drug thing, irrational people do irrational things. He may have a knife "usually do" or a spare gun. Distracting you or engaging in conversation, is the worse thing to do. You want to state your orders loud and clear, "like you see in every cop show", Drop the weapon now, get down on the ground and let me see your hands at all times. That's it. Just because you have a gun, doesn't impress some people. They have been doing this a long time, and have had numerous guns pointed at them, they know, you may miss,"if they rush you" and many will take the chance, especially if they see your hand shaking, or if you appear unsure as what to do next.
Never assume that because you got the advantage for the moment, that it's over. You may have to use your head more than your weapon, if he doesn't sit or start to comply while trying to move in on you, a warning, "stop or I will shoot" followed by a shot to the leg, or next to his foot, may be in order. Many will disagree, but you need him to do what you say when you say it. If there are no consequences, he will try to take you. You may forget that this guy would have killed you and possiblly your friends or family a few minutes ago. He is the enemy, and will try untill he no longer sees an escape is possible.
All this time, depending on where this happens, other things are going on, you may not know his friend is right there someware in the crowd or pretending to be a passerby, or even offering to help. keep everyone at a distance until you have a clear picture or Police arrive.Please stay back, he may be armed, police are on route.
That video that was up a few days ago, showed a guy with a knife, wound 3 or 4 cops, while they were shooting at him the whole time. He may have killed one,running back and forth, possiblly died after, but the damage was done.

Trunk Monkey
March 3, 2012, 02:00 PM
Don't assume that a bad guy is going to run away, you could be "dead wrong". If you are dealing with a "predicate felon", who if caught will do life on his multiple felonies, he will not go quietlly. Be ready to fire, don't engage in a discussion, just something like, drop your weapon now, or I will shoot you. Sit down, keep your hands where I can see them, and sit on them, if you move, you will get shot. Secure him if possible.

I know we can’t possibly prepare for every eventuality but I can not conceive of a circumstance that would lead me to draw against an armed criminal and simply order him to drop his weapon. If the situation has gone that far the time for talk is over.

There will be no warning commands. Unless the criminal stands down between the time I draw and my sights are on the target I will fire.

if he doesn't sit or start to comply while trying to move in on you, a warning, "stop or I will shoot" followed by a shot to the leg, or next to his foot, may be in order.

Quite possibly the very worst advice I have ever read on the internet. We do not shoot to enforce compliance we shoot to defend life or we do not shoot at all. Your “advice” could very well lead to you sharing a cell with the criminal you shot.

Pilot
March 3, 2012, 02:08 PM
Well I know one thing. He's NOT going to run if I am unarmed. At least if I am armed there is a chance he will run.

baylorattorney
March 3, 2012, 03:10 PM
If I pull it, the armed criminal won't run. His blood certainly will tho.


Judge a man not by the answers he gives, but by the questions he asks. - Voltaire

X-Rap
March 3, 2012, 03:29 PM
I suggest getting acquainted with someone involved in the prison system if you want serious insight into the criminal mind set. Their views will be biased but in this case that is probably better. They see daily what we can only speculate on and case managers and such who have years of experience will tell you that while by nature criminals are cowards but some of them are also very ruthless and evil.

browningguy
March 3, 2012, 03:49 PM
Criminals are by nature cowards,

That's the sort of thinking that can lead to you getting killed. If a bad guy is going after you, you better be thinking about putting him out of hs misery pretty quickly, otherwise you may be the one lying on the ground bleeding out.

GLOOB
March 3, 2012, 04:01 PM
I think most criminals are too stupid to predict. A smart robber would flee, knowing that 95% of the time their victim knows and follows the law and just wants to be left alone, thus the victim probably won't shoot if you have an immediate attitude adjustment. That's probably the best odds he's going to get. If he opens fire, chances are he's going to get some return fire before either party goes down. People who get shot usually have to go to the hospital, and that means getting caught. But you never know. A lot of them probably think that you'll drop with one shot like a sack of potatoes, like what happens in the movies and videogames.

CountryUgly
March 3, 2012, 04:17 PM
IMO if you carry a firearm and are presented with an armed attacker and you pull your weapon and don't fire I would consider that brandishing a firearm which is illegal but if you fire that is self defense and perfectly legal...so please don't be a criminal and pull the trigger.. This way of thinking is based on personal experience with an armed attacker and from what I've seen these thugs don't run, at least not until after they have shot you.

floydster
March 3, 2012, 04:19 PM
Trunk Monkey--thank you for your post, it made my day--and you are absolutley correct,how long does it take for BG to cover 20 feet with a knife--seconds--a lot shorter time then for you to say, "sit down and keep your hands where I can see them", I'm still laughing:)
Floydster

Certaindeaf
March 3, 2012, 04:55 PM
Through news sources I'll hear of people, home owners, shop owners, etc who defend themselves with a firearm. It seems to me, more often than not, that once a firearm is presented in self defense that most criminals run away.
Anyone have the facts on this? Do armed criminals usually fight or run when their intended victim presents a firearm in self-defense?
I wouldn't bet on nothing. I think the Cooper said to say perhaps something (to ropeadope their braincell) and then do a certain thing, given a certain situation. never know

jad0110
March 3, 2012, 10:56 PM
I think it is probable, but don't count on it. To use an analogy, the sound of a pump shotgun racking may scare them off, but that doesn't mean you don't need shells in it. Be ready to take appropriate followup action (aka Condition Red).

Agreed. Likely, but don't bet your life on it.

Panzercat,

Excellent, thougthful post. Very well said.

abq87120
March 4, 2012, 12:08 AM
I cannot cite the study but in a promenent one, convicts were interviewed. 40% stated that they had avoided commiting a particular crime because they thought the victim was probably armed. If I were a BG type, I don't think I would seek out a victim who could probably effectively fight back. That said, my EDC is hot 24/365.

Ignition Override
March 4, 2012, 12:12 AM
The vast majority of criminals don't expect victims to potentially be armed, do they?

This excludes people near gun ranges, shops, shows, or LEOs.

Jaymo
March 4, 2012, 12:18 AM
Some people are too stupid to be scared.

I had a couple of situations occur years ago.
In one, a HUGE dude tried to pull me from my car by my throat.
I drew my .357 because I WAS in fear for my life, and was getting lightheaded from his big hand squeezing my throat.
He exited, stage left, immediately.

The other time, my dad and I were at the car wash. I was under the hood of the car, spraying the engine down with degreaser.
I heard a car pull up behind our car, and heard car doors shut. Two "gentleman" had gotten out.
One had approached my dad and was asking him repeated questions about how much the car was worth and how much could he (the asker of the questions, not my dad) could get for the car.
I saw the other one walk into the wash stall next to us. I figured he was going to get behind my dad while the other distracted him. They had been so focused on my dad, that they didn't see me peeking out from behind the hood.
I was carrying my Makarov back then. That was back when you could get Cor Bon loads for them, 1996.
When the other "gentleman" stepped out from the next stall, he walked right into the muzzle of my Mak.
I had drawn it as soon as the hair on the back of my neck stood up.
He looked like he didn't know whether to scat or go blind. He turned around and ran back to his car.
His partner did the same.
A man had been carjacked and murdered a mile from that spot, only a week before, as a gang initiation.
My dad was lucky that I was there.
I was lucky that I was armed with a reliable pistol and was willing to use it if I needed to, to protect myself and my family.

Are my cases indicative of what any other criminal would do?
I have no idea. I hope I never find out. I didn't enjoy either situation and I don't want to experience them again.
IF necessary, I will protect myself and my family.
I sure hope it never comes to that.

Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.

BTW, I was very lucky in both situations. I escaped unharmed, with the exception of bruises on my throat in the first case, and my dad and I both were unharmed in the latter case.
I was also very lucky, in that I didn't have to shoot anyone.

It easily could have turned out very differently.

sigpro
March 4, 2012, 06:23 AM
I think we have to assume that they won't run.

MuleRyder
March 4, 2012, 09:20 AM
a warning, "stop or I will shoot" followed by a shot to the leg, or next to his foot, may be in order.

Please stop giving advice...your post is full of bad advice and this is probably the worst advice I've seen in a long time

Fred Fuller
March 4, 2012, 12:04 PM
There are a number of people who analyze the backgrounds, motivations, psychological makeup and mindset of the "opposition," those people we often dismiss with little thought. And that easy dismissal is, IMHO, a mistake.

Heinlein was quoted as saying that "Your enemy is never a villain in his own mind." The work of professionals like William Aprill, Dr. Glenn Meyer, Skip Gochenour and others offer some insight into what makes VCAs (violent criminal actors) tick, and how those of us on the other side of the mirror image can better adjust our own mindset. For example, the blogger at http://blog.ryjones.org/2012/02/13/on-being-aware/ apparently spent last weekend in the same place I did (http://www.rangemaster.com/events/the-tactical-conference.html).

Lightly dismissing VCAs as "stupid" or whatever isn't going to help much. The reality is often a good bit more complex than that. And some basis of understanding of that reality can help those of us who consider ourselves "the good guys" to better maintain our own situational awareness in order to avoid confrontation with VCAs, and to better cope with an offer of violence from VCAs if our awareness fails.

Most of the time, an offer of violence from a VCA is actually the opening round in a negotiation, even though the motivation is the offer of violence. "Give it up" means give me your money/whatever so I don't have to hurt you. The VCA may well look at the situation as 'just getting paid' by someone who owes him for a lifetime of getting taken advantage of by 'tha man' or 'tha system.' You might disagree, but his perception, whatever it is, constitutes his reality. And appearing to thwart the VCA's attempt to 'get paid' is not going to go over very well, unless you are ready and able to thwart it decisively.

Some old Chinese general is reported to have opined, It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

Know your enemy, and do not take him lightly...

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics.html&page=1
Street Robberies And You - The Basics
-discussed here at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=642205

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/Feature/2007/07_Feature.htm

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/04_StudyDay.htm

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/08_StudyDay.htm

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2007/ResponsetoPredation.pdf

http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2008/ManagingEncounters.pdf

gunsNgearguy
March 5, 2012, 12:39 AM
Criminals by definition tend to make bad decisions. If they have a gun it would be a safe bet to assume they are willing to use it. Even if they run they will most likely hold their gun out behind them, blasting as they go. And dont listen to anyone that advises you to shoot someone in the leg. If you have to shoot, shoot center mass.

gym
March 5, 2012, 01:32 AM
He may not have his weapon at that point or it could be hidden in his belt, I have been in these situations,Monkey, and you just can't gun somone down on broadway if he's running away. You can however warn him to stop and if he doesn't you can shoot, to stop a threat,if he turns the gun on you, or let him go, you aren't a cop. You can't just shoot a purse snatcher in the head, unless he has a gun pointed at you. Unless you are in your house or on your property, I have been involved in several of these. You may think your john Wayne, but after he sues you in civil court and his family gets you house, you will learn why only a shoot to kill when it's necesary. You aren't a cop. You are supposed to stop the threat. Go shoot a guy in front of 20 or thirty people who isn't pointing a gun at you, or running away, and you will be going to jail.
The op said he has a firearm not that it's in his hand or pointed at you. After a few shootouts you learn the difference.
On the internet everone is a tough guy, when your out on the street and you don't know how many guys your facing you want to disable the one you get, either by cuffing him, or using ties if your alone, until you figure out what just happened. When you have 5 come through your front door, PM me and let me know how you did.
Criminals are not all stupid, some are and some are not, it's a cross section of society. They do this for a living, if they work a crew, chances are they are better at it than you are.
Let a guy draw you into a side street or alley, suddenlly there are 3 more there waiting for you.
You may have to shoot guy to stop him if he dosen't drop the weapon, if he doesn't take commands well. Even cops don' shoot until the weapon is leveled up at them in many situations. The judge is going to ask you why you chased down a guy who wasn't causing you a threat? What's your answer goingto be, because I have a gun and I read it on the internet. Too many people talk through their butt when it comes to what they would do if.They would do nothing most of the time, unless it concerned them. Your license is for self protection only, not to capture criminals. Once he is past that danger point 25 feet out the door, you better not take target practice on him, ot it's a manslaughter rap.

Zoogster
March 5, 2012, 07:12 AM
Most do, yours might not.
It also depends on what type of crime we are talking about.
Was it a dispute with posturing and peer pressure involving an argument, or an attempted robbery.



Most common criminals operate on risk and reward to a large extent. It is not a one time event for them, they want to get easy money on a regular basis.
They also have no ego involved in the fight in a common robbery scenario.
They want to get away more than anything.
If something may prevent that then that changes things dramatically.


Now some do fire as they run, or fire reflexively.
A percent also kill cooperative victims, and you may not have the option to choose to fight back effectively after cooperating.



Guns do not discourage all criminals. They are less often discouraged if macho posturing is involved beforehand, or their ego or reputation amongst gang members or peers is on the line.
Gang members routinely target and kill other gang members they know are armed. (Gang crime has been decreasing dramatically though.) So they will attack people they know have a gun and are willing to use it.
Many similarly target drug dealers they know are armed, along with high value targets they think will have a lot of cash, drugs, and some other valuables.
Being armed by itself does not stop all criminals, but it deters.




As for the news portraying a lot of crime. It is strange but our nation actually has a lower violent crime rate than it has in decades.
A lot of this is the decline in gang violence, dropping so much that even if there is some increase in other segments of the population it is a net loss.
As the economy has become worse, more people are presumably desperate, and desperation generally increases crime, yet we are still dropping in violent crime significantly.
The media and scare mongering for ratings may give the appearance of a violent dangerous society, but violent crime is lower than it has been since the 1960s in most of the country.

Many are out to take undeserved credit for the drop too. As they have laid off police in several local cities, and reduce presence dramatically due to the economy the violent crime has still dropped in the last few years.
Politicians scramble to claim credit, claiming various policies, crackdowns, etc
But its not generally responsible either.
The dramatic decrease in violent crime is interesting.

Of course gang members generally targeted each other. So the dramatic reduction in gang members attacking gang members does not impact most citizens.
So a reduced overall violent crime rate may still actually be an increased violent crime rate against regular people.

beatledog7
March 5, 2012, 08:31 AM
Statistics tend to show that the most effective deterrent to violent crimes committed on the individual and home invasion crimes is the Second Amendment.

People are almost universally afraid of getting shot, and a smart criminal knows that having a gun himself is no assurance that he won't take a bullet. Wherever the citizens are allowed to be armed, crime rates fall.

There is no way to accurately predict whether a perp's level of commitment will wain if his victim presents a viable defense against attack. Every situation is completely and wholly isolated from every other situation.

In short, regarding violent crimes, there is no "usually."

Fred Fuller
March 5, 2012, 10:30 AM
I would strongly suggest spending some time reading at http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/ , and buying Miller's books Meditations On Violence and Facing Violence -

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594391181?tag=chirontrainin-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=1594391181&adid=12NG7QSQ32CRR13AMXYD&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fchirontraining.blogspot.com%2F

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594392137?tag=chirontrainin-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=1594392137&adid=0EY1D4CRH7ZNNN8JD2N5&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fchirontraining.com%2FSite%2F%2FHome_files%2Fwidget3_markup.html

There is also a bad guy in a fight (or many) and you must understand him. If he is a predator he is there neither to test you nor to help you develop skills. He is there to take something from you and do it as safely and efficiently as possible. To let you know anything in advance or to feed you the type of attacks you have trained against would be stupid. Do not count on the threat being stupid. You should know, as much as possible, how threats think and feel and plan as well as how all humans move and how they break. -- Rory Miller, from Drills: Training for Sudden Violence (sample at https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/44993 )

Baba Louie
March 5, 2012, 11:59 AM
Would be interesting to note whatever numbers can be derived in statistic form, but anecdotally, on the local front, this BG, when faced with armed victim decided to shoot it out... and lost.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/man-killed-in-pawn-shop-shooting-identified-136399458.html

Plan on the worst, hope for the best, check your six, everyones hands and eyes, never give up, never surrender (too much Galaxy Quest there, sorry)

GeoInSD
March 5, 2012, 10:28 PM
This is great information. It really helps to know this.

BBDartCA
March 6, 2012, 12:22 AM
This is true, and it is very good reasoning against gun control. It is evidence that is very hard for the Brady Bunch to refute
Shopping in Switzerland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

brigadier
March 6, 2012, 12:29 AM
It seams I've enjoyed and suffered a little bit or allot of just about every walk of life, from ghetto to backwood towns, wealthy to poverty. And frankly, I went to high school during the California gang wars of the 1990s which I had to live through and today live in an area that's a checkerboard of good and bad neighborhoods where ranches and horse riding schools are found less then a mile from crack houses and biker bars. Needless to say, I've seen plenty of the different worlds being discussed on this thread.

I am strongly with jscott, though it seams to me that it has more to do with emotional self-control. Though my experience is that violent criminals tend to have no less self-control then your average Joe. To put it bluntly, average people seam to think they have more self-control then they actually do while violent criminals are about what they seam or at least usually are. The difference is what sets them off and how they behave when set-off. Criminals and average people have the same amounts of fears, but are afraid of different things, as where the hardened criminal's fears are usually based within the criminal element while the average man's fears of the same type are of the law and going to jail. So your average Joe might make an effort to refrain from responding to offense with violence out of fear of the law. On the other side, your seasoned criminal may be afraid of local hierarchy or mafia elements in the criminal world and watch his behavior as to not offend them but has little or no fear of the law and won't hesitate to resort to violence towards law abiding citizens over the slightest offense.

The coward criminals tend to be of the young age range while the more daring ones tend to be; as jscott put it, the more experienced ones. Among this crowd, the question is mainly whether or not pointing a gun at them will set them off. I've seen allot of criminals in their 30s and 40s who would leave me surprised if they got scared and retreated if someone pointed a gun at them. I'd sooner expect them to go off the deep end and become even more violent.

Statistically, I don't know if there has ever been a study on the probability but experience of seeing how these people behave up close and personal tells me that I'm not going to pull a gun on anyone unless I'm prepared to kill them because there's a very good chance I will. I'd say that's a very good rule to live by.

Don't ever point a gun at anyone unless you're prepared to use it.

whalerman
March 6, 2012, 12:43 AM
I believe this kind of discussion is comparable to another situation. As a law enforcement officer, we have many custody situations. This can be compared to whether the suspect fights or submits to being taken into custody without resisting. All I can say is the response of the suspect many times depends on your approach. There is a fine line between being belligerent and inciting escalation. You don't want to infuriate your target. But on the other hand you have to present yourself as a very prepared, practiced, capable adversary. You also have to appear calm. My advice to anyone who has made the decision to resist with armed force is to do so with firmness and confidence. Once you make the decision, FOLLOW THROUGH. That is the best way to ensure you come out of it uninjured. You want that guy to run away. That's the best win you can have as a civilian defending yourself. Tell the guy that it is not in his interest to test you, because you are ready. If you are solid in your resistance, he will run. And never, ever belittle your adversary. No implication of age, race, if he's a fat guy etc. keep your mouth shut. Tell him with your actions that you respect him but you are ready to kill him. He may very well believe his friends are watching. Don't give him a stage.

Certaindeaf
March 6, 2012, 12:48 AM
Hey soonerboomer, do you have a thought or an "aha" moment you'd like to share?

brigadier
March 6, 2012, 01:12 AM
Well said whalerman. I would go so far as to say someone with poor self-control is more afraid of someone with very good self control then weapons. At least, that's the impression I get from most people. Now ARMED people with good self-control got a (minimum) 50 to 1 kill ratio in Somalia and people can sense why when they encounter such folks. If you're armed, confident and unafraid to put a criminal down, criminals tend to realize that they are going to die if they attempt to threaten your life. But if you draw your gun shaking frantically and sounding like you got kicked in your manhood, don't be surprised if you get laughed at and your gun taken away.

Certaindeaf
March 6, 2012, 01:33 AM
^
What happened to that Cooperman? Maybe I'd better re-study up like that'd even matter. It was probably just an example I forget.

SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE
March 6, 2012, 02:42 AM
It is my opinion that if the occasion demands that I draw my weapon ,I plan to be firing that weapon once drawn ! If the criminal runs or drops it makes little difference as long as he stops doing what it is I decided to shoot him for doing ! We shoot to stop ! Kevin

lemaymiami
March 6, 2012, 09:34 AM
Tried to read every single post in this thread before speaking up and it was pretty easy to note the ones operating from theory as opposed to experience.... Street life is a jungle plain and simple. Predators are always on the fine edge of attack or flight. Weakness or the appearance of weakness invites a predator... strength, confidence or at least the appearance of same is a real deterrent in most cases, in my experience.

Now for my point of view. Violent confrontations or armed confrontations are so volatile and unpredictable (on both sides of the equation) that you can never be sure how they'll play out... No matter how well you're trained or armed - they're best avoided if at all possible. If you have to act to save your life or someone else's then act decisively and don't back off until the threat is ended or the opponent flees. You won't like the alternative. I've had many, many occasions to point a firearm at someone that we were going to arrest and could never predict whether they'd submit, flee, or attack (many times you're just not dealing with anyone in their right mind....). In 22 years on the street I only fired one shot (and wish I hadn't - but that's another story). The vast majority of the time the offender submitted and was taken into custody without incident. I do know that I had many ignore a pistol pointed at them but no one ever ignored a shotgun.... Violent offenders that would try to face down an armed male officer behaved completely differently when a female officer was the one pointing a gun at them (I'd guess that in their world a woman with a gun was going to use it most of the time....). I can remember more than one really bad dude that was visibly frightened when a female pointed a gun at him (who knew? I never would have guessed that reaction if I hadn't seen it more than once...). These were the kind of guys that would assault an officer in a heartbeat if the opportunity was there...

Everything I'm talking about here is based on police work - ordinary citizens (armed or not) are at a real disadvantage in a real life armed confrontation since you have no support or backup and no way other than your demeanor and self confidence to show a predator that you might be the wrong victim... Most of what I trained and practiced on the street involved minimizing any one on one situations. What the public considers bravery on the part of an officer might easily be considered foolishness by professionals. We did everything we could using sound tactics and pre-planning to make sure the odds were heavily in our favor in any confrontation...

Like I said, an armed confrontation is so un-predictable that they're best avoided if at all possible. I've been retired from police work for about sixteen years now and I'd like to spend the rest of my life without that kind of excitement....

AOK
March 6, 2012, 09:59 AM
I think if the criminal already has the initiative and has the gun drawn I personally have a few options. 1. Comply 2. If there is enough distance get to cover at speed and in the process draw and return fire (if possible) 3. Disarm him. Drawing just standing there hoping they run is not even in my thought process. That sounds like similar thinking along the lines of "racking a shotgun will scare the bad guy away." Poor and dangerous mindset(s) IMHO.

jbrown50
March 6, 2012, 11:40 AM
If there's one thing i've learned during my years of growing up in a high crime inner city, the military, as a inner city cop and through martial arts/self defense training is that you never underestimate the capabilities mindset or resolve of your opponent.

I've seen too many dead bodies whereas their adversary had taken a lowly .32or 380 and put several shots on center mass. I've seen too many good guys who've either gotten their gun taken away and used upon them or have gotten carved up like a Christmas turkey with their gun in hand or still in the holster. I've seen too many 'expert' hand to hand fighters and boxers get their butts kicked by an angry hopped up thug.

Your gun is not a prop. It's to be used to defend innocent life and, that means you may have to kill someone in the process. If you can't stomach that then you need to leave it home in the safe.

Double Naught Spy
March 6, 2012, 11:57 AM
Vast majority of criminals are cowards. From what I see and read crooks run and at best snap a shot or two over the shoulder as they run. I have never heard of a criminal standing his ground in a firefight.

Really?
North Hollywood bank robbers
Platt and Matix
Columbine
Charles Whitman
Tyler Courthouse Square
Florida School board shooting
Branch Davidians
Fort Hood Shooting
Symbionese Liberation Army gun battle

Criminals may not frequently stand their ground in gun battles, but this is not out of cowardice. More often than not, retreating is the most pragmatic thing to do. In many cases, the criminals don't stand their ground because the ground they are on isn't theirs and they have no reason to occupy it longer than necessary. In some of the cases noted above, when criminals do stand their ground, it is often because they are on their own ground.

From a logic perspective for most criminals, there is no profit in staying and fighting. Usually their goals are to accomplish some task and to get away without being caught. Staying to fight a gun battle increases their chances of of being injured, killed, or caught. They also realize that the longer a battle progresses, the less chance they will have for escape.

I find it interesting that when such tactics are used by the good guys, we consider the tactics to be a smart, prudent course of action to minimize risk and maximize reward.

SharkHat
March 6, 2012, 12:04 PM
I generally believe that it's a bad idea to assume that people who are already involved in irrational behavior are going to suddenly be capable of making rational decisions.

Zoogster
March 6, 2012, 08:50 PM
brigadier said:


went to high school during the California gang wars of the 1990s which I had to live through

The coward criminals tend to be of the young age range while the more daring ones tend to be; as jscott put it, the more experienced ones.


Actually I observed that quite often the opposite was true.


The young ones tend to be the most dangerous because they are often out to prove something to the older ones and their peers.
They have not yet earned the respect that was so important to most of the violent ones.
They would do things that are foolish, 'put in work', and commit excessive violence or react to even the slightest offense in the most excessive manner because they care more about what other gang members will think.
The young ones were the foot soldiers.
Not the brand new ones, but the ones that had been doing it just a few years, and wanted to be known as 'down' 'riders' and various other slang terms and have a reputation for being willing to kill or seriously injure anyone that disrespected them or the gang.
They compensated for not really being tough or experienced by being as vicious, ruthless, and excessive as possible.
These were the age groups that did the most killing and were the most killed.
They died for 'respect'.
Trying to prove something to others.

Even with common criminals it is the young inexperienced one that comes up with ideas like killing all witnesses in a robbery. So instead of being just another common robbery in a bad area and a higher chance of getting away with it, they get a team of detectives and high amount of resources trying to track them down because they are murders, while ruining lives and bringing suffering to families. It actually makes them less likely to get away with it, but they are young and stupid and improvising as they go along. So they come up with stupid ideas.
Likewise they are the ones more apt to just shoot an uncooperative victim after an order is not obeyed, or even if the reward they got was less than expected.
They are less predictable and have not learned methods that allow them to operate outside of jail/prison/ or a graveyard for longer stretches of time yet.
So they do things more likely to get them caught, sent to prison, or killed, like react in unpredictable and excessive ways.


The older gang members and organized crime members in their mid 20-40s by contrast were more reserved, calculating, and certainly predatory, but slower to excessive reaction. Someone only gets to react excessively so many times before they end up dead, and if they lived that long and were not serving life already it was because they didn't do that or learned not to before it caught up with them.
They still care a lot about ego and reputation as a member of organized crime, and so would make an example of those who were blatant and put them on the spot in front of others, but they had a more tempered predatory perspective.
They may plot a hit later for something they consider worth it, but don't generally over react to a slight offense and kill someone in public in front of witnesses that know who they are insuring a conviction for example. But the younger ones would just go full attack mode immediately in the heat of the moment, evidence or longevity be damned.
The young ones reacted on emotion, and a desire to be seen as tough guys which in their minds meant being the most violent.

So generally the young stupid ones tended to be the most dangerous to other people.
That may not fit the romantic fictional notions of Hollywood, glamorizing sophisticated criminals, where smart and sophisticated correlate with more dangerous, but it was true more often than not.

gallo
March 7, 2012, 12:37 AM
Can't assume Your criminal will run away. What matters most is your reaction to the encounter as that will most likely determine your assailant's course of action.

EvilGenius
March 7, 2012, 01:14 AM
...And never, ever belittle your adversary. No implication of age, race, if he's a fat guy etc. keep your mouth shut. Tell him with your actions that you respect him but you are ready to kill him. He may very well believe his friends are watching. Don't give him a stage.

+1

One of Miller's sayings is "Be rude, don't be a dick."

Meaning, dont be afraid or hesitant to tell someone to back off or leave, close the door in their face, etc.

But DO NOT insult them. The initial contact (assuming its not a blindside) is the beginning of the negotiation of your victimization. If youre deliberate and confident most will move on to easier targets. But as soon as you make it personal with some errant remark or judgement. Its no longer a negotiation, it's a power struggle/dance and they have much much more on the line as far as defending their image, manliness, whatever than you do. It's no longer about them getting money or items, it's about scaring, hurting or killing you to prove a point.

orionengnr
March 7, 2012, 01:26 AM
Post #4 was the most worthwhile in this thread.
Close second to post #74.
Well thought out and well articulated.

Among candidates for the most idiotic:
It was a standoff for about a second or so, I already had the hammer cocked back and the barrel aimed right at his forehead and I was ready to fire if he moved an inch closer.
Piss-poor tactics, and looking for an ND and a civil case. Assuming that this was a revolver--for a 1911, a cocked hammer is not worthy of note (the positions of the thumb safety and of the trigger finger would be, though)... :)

And then, posted by an (alleged) attorney:
If I pull it, the armed criminal won't run. His blood certainly will tho.
Really? Is this what THR has devolved to recently?

Certaindeaf
March 7, 2012, 01:53 AM
Most judgemental, post #77.

soonerboomer
March 7, 2012, 02:37 AM
Posted by Certaindeaf...
Hey soonerboomer, do you have a thought or an "aha" moment you'd like to share?

Thanks for asking. Honestly, nothing in particular. I just find the thread discussion informative (especially the sociology side of things).
Of late I've been thinking about potential self defense situations and probabilities. And, while I do not advocate negligence in preparedness, it does seem to me that the likelihood of an escalating violent engagement is rare once a defensive firearm (and posture) is brought into readiness.

Zoogster
March 7, 2012, 02:57 AM
soonerboomer said: it does seem to me that the likelihood of an escalating violent engagement is rare once a defensive firearm (and posture) is brought into readiness.

Fortunately it is rare, but should not be relied upon.

For example some people were compiling stories of where a full auto firearm had been used in self-defense.

One incident involved a guy who worked for Heckler & Koch.
After upsetting some guys in traffic they followed him shooting at him with a handgun. Two individuals in the vehicle, a passenger and driver.


The H&K employee finally drove to his workplace. They pulled in to the same area and the driver I think it was got out of the vehicle. The H&K employee got out of his vehicle with a rifle in his hands and fired several rounds on full auto into the air.

The brilliant criminal's response? To charge at the guy firing a full auto rifle with two knives in his hands.
If he had had a gun he presumably would have fired it at him just as readily (the gun was still in the vehicle with the passenger if I recall.)


You cannot rely on them doing what they are more likely to do.
Most criminals flee most of the time, to try again another day. But a good percentage also do something else entirely.
The only safe presumption if they have a firearm themselves is that they will react in a deadly manner.
So any course of action taken must assume as soon as they realize a victim has a gun they will open fire instead of or in addition to fleeing.

gallo
March 7, 2012, 12:25 PM
A criminal cannot afford the luxury, if we can call it that, of getting shot. If he is not killed, he will end up in a hospital sooner or later for treatment where he will be asked questions and put into custody. So the presence of the gun raises the stakes for the criminal to a point that if the motive of the crime is $50 bucks and watch it simply isn’t worth it. But the criminal has got to have a way out physically and emotionally. As it has been mentioned already it is not good business to make such a transaction personal by insulting the criminal or attempting to hold him. As a civilian, our only responsibility is for the safe keeping of ourselves and family or friends, i.e. a fleeing criminal is the best possible outcome. Holding a criminal at gun point is like getting inside a car with a feral cat.

If the criminal is stupid or acting irrationally, then the mere presence of a gun may enrage him further. Who knows what will happen. Best practice: the moment you feel your life is in danger put your front sight on the criminal. If he flees that’s a plus. If he doesn’t, may God help you and carry through.

crracer_712
March 7, 2012, 01:41 PM
Criminals don't pick on the elderly, they run away if threatened with force and they gladly pay for any wrong doing.

Deanimator
March 7, 2012, 05:50 PM
As with most things, "It depends".

Most armed robbers are hardly "brave". They seek the weak and unaware. If they wanted to work for their money they'd get jobs.

On the other hand, stupid people, crazy people and people with bad judgment don't know when to call it a day. The other night, I saw video of a bar shootout in Toledo, Ohio. A patron got the boot for trying to sell dope in the bar. He came back with a gun. One of the bar employees "found" a gun on the floor. When the ejected patron started shooting into the bar, the employee and a random patron sought cover behind and under a pool table and returned fire. Not only did the nitwit who started the gunfight NOT leave, he actually entered the bar AFTER the shooting started. Had either of his opponents had even MINIMAL shooting ability, he'd have been one dead moron.

It's nice when a would be predator flees at the sight of a gun. It's even common.

Just don't take it as a given.

Deanimator
March 7, 2012, 06:09 PM
Lightly dismissing VCAs as "stupid" or whatever isn't going to help much.
A snapping turtle is "stupid".

It doesn't take much brains to bite your finger off.

Your average criminal is stupid.

It doesn't take much brains to pull a trigger.

Stupid people are more dangerous in many cases than smart ones. A smart criminal can do at least a minimal cost benefit analysis. A stupid one can't. He's apt to do something virtually GUARANTEED to end badly for him. Whether it ends badly for YOU is a function of your situational awareness and your ruthless capacity to do ANYTHING to survive the encounter.

When guns/knives come out, the negotiations are at an end. There's nothing to discuss, no bargains to be struck, no mercy to be offered as long as there's a threat in play. Once you put me in reasonable fear of life and limb, there are no threats, no warnings, just the unswerving effort to eliminate the threat expeditiously and at minimum danger to myself.

From news reports, it seems that a LOT of the people who end up getting hurt or killed by criminal assailants issue threats or warnings, try to reason, etc., etc., etc. If you put me in reasonable and immediate fear of life and limb, I'm going to assume that you mean it. That means that the next step is the overwhelming and unhesitating application of the utmost force and violence to end the threat. You get no warnings. I don't try to talk you out of it. I assume that you're every bit as serious as I am.

In a deadly force encounter I can choose my own welfare or that of my assailant. It's not a hard choice.

MuleRyder
March 7, 2012, 09:59 PM
On the other hand, stupid people, crazy people and people with bad judgment don't know when to call it a day.

Reminds me of a shooting in Maine years ago and underscores the unpredictability of people

Two women were working in a convenience store and a guy known to one or both women kept hanging around, being a nuisance generally. I believe he was interested in one of them, finally they grew tired of him and told him to leave. They had words and he got mad and left. He went out to his truck and got a .357 or he went home and got it, I can't remember, but either way he went back into the store and shot and killed both women behind the counter. 2 shots each as I remember, just because they enraged him by hurting his feelings by telling him to leave. You never know what is going on in someones head and how they will react to something most would consider minor in nature.

Certaindeaf
March 7, 2012, 11:29 PM
.it seems that a LOT of the people who end up getting hurt or killed by criminal assailants issue threats or warnings, try to reason, etc., etc., etc..
Except for those poor souls essentially snuffed on a whim and within a blink.

exbrit49
April 1, 2012, 12:17 AM
In response to post 77. Yes I held off fire for a split second to give the guy a chance to back off, which he did and he was still 5 feet away! It saved me from perhaps a lengthy Civil Suit and ended on a good note. I carry for defence and will fire if needed.
The poster questioned as to whether I was using a revolver or an auto and references having the hammer cocked. He didnt know and I had even named the weapon I was carrying in my post!
I think the guy just likes to spout off!
He wasnt there and to make judgements of this type shows a total lack of thought process.
Let there be no mistake, had the guy moved an inch closer, there would have been a very different outcome!
In closing I will express my disapointment that this person even carries for self defense as it sounds like he is saying once the threat is there, he is going to shoot. Not me, I dont want to have to defend a shot in the back! a good way to find yoursef in jail facing civil and possible arrest.
In closing , I had thought it would be good to share the experience but now I am not so sure.
I have been a member for a few months but after watching not just this thread , but many others, it would appear that some respondees just sit and wait to pick on someone and pontificate. I dont need to, I experienced it first hand and dont need any one to tell me how to react to that type of situation.
Well posting is not for me, I will not be posting again.
Roger

exavid
April 1, 2012, 12:52 AM
No reason not to post, I found your post quite creditable and think you did the right thing. Right thing because you were ready and the end result was in your favor. Forums like these do attract boorish comments, and worse from those who haven't experienced a similar situation, unfortunately it's to be expected. Rather than withdrawing from the forum simply ignore the rude and confrontational atittude of the ignorant.

grilledcheese
April 1, 2012, 01:06 AM
I'll second that motion---no need to leave. Just don't feed the trolls and try to ignore them.



Jeffrey

4v50 Gary
April 1, 2012, 01:11 AM
My Latino friend noticed three NMs maneuvering to surround him. This was in Oakland, CA. He put down his duffle bag and was pulling out his pistol. One saw the glow of the night sights. He shouted gun and they fled. My friend didn't even brandish it yet.

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