.22 Safety Question


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Comanche04
March 3, 2012, 06:50 PM
Hello everyone. I'm new to the forums, but I've perused some of the threads occasionally. I have a .22 safety question I'm hoping to have answered.

I was at a small outdoor range this morning in a mostly rural area, and shooting my Ruger 10/22 at the 100-yard range between firing some other rifles I brought. The owner of the range appeared after awhile and seemed irritated that I was shooting a .22 at the 100-yard range and violating the rapid-fire rule, referencing the fact that there were houses nearby several times. This is a typical outdoor range, with large earthen berms surrounding it on three sides. The targets are stapled on large plywood sheets. I probably was shooting a little fast - maybe one round every two seconds or so.

I have always been told that .22 rounds can travel a great distance and ricochet easily. Was this what the owner was concerned about? I was under the impression that the large berms were sufficient, but I have heard that many ranges don't allow .22 caliber rifles on hundred-yard ranges. Is there a safety consideration I'm missing?

Thanks for your input.

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LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
March 3, 2012, 06:56 PM
I doubt it to be honest. But then again, I do shoot on DNR land.

deadin
March 3, 2012, 06:57 PM
The owner of the range appeared after awhile and seemed irritated that I was shooting a .22 at the 100-yard range and violating the rapid-fire rule

His range, his rules. Doesn't really need a reason.
Were the rules posted anywhere? If so, you have no excuse. If not, now you know for the next time. If you try to argue with him don't be upset that you may be told not to return.:cuss:

Comanche04
March 3, 2012, 07:49 PM
I agree completely that it is their range and not my place to argue, so I stopped shooting the .22 on the hundred yard range. I'm not upset about it, I'm genuinely just wondering if there was something I missed regarding safety.

LJ-MosinFreak-Buck
March 3, 2012, 07:53 PM
I'd say you were fine, if there were no rules posted, he can jus stay mad, or be an upstanding person and inform you if you were doing something wrong.

But there is a possibly of him being mad that you could shoot better than him with a .22 at 100yds.

deadin
March 3, 2012, 08:24 PM
I'm genuinely just wondering if there was something I missed regarding safety.

Possibly a combination of the rapid fire and the fact that a .22 at 100 yds requires quite a bit of "hold over" and if overdone can miss the berm.

beatledog7
March 3, 2012, 08:26 PM
Comanche04:

You admit you were violating a rule on rapid shooting, and that the range owner told you "several times" that there are nearby houses.

You certainly did miss something. You missed being told to stop what you were doing. Perhaps you were a bit slow on the uptake?

EddieNFL
March 3, 2012, 08:32 PM
I probably was shooting a little fast - maybe one round every two seconds or so.

Wow!

I have always been told that .22 rounds can travel a great distance and ricochet easily.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/learning/hunter_education/homestudy/firearms/bullets.phtml

Comanche04
March 3, 2012, 08:51 PM
beatledog7:

I don't think I made this very clear in my original post, but the owner mentioned the houses several times for emphasis within the same warning. There was only one conversation on the issue and I did not repeat the behavior. I will fault myself with not clarifying in my original post, but I don't appreciate the insinuation that I am unintelligent.

Deadin:
The "holdover" suggestion sounds like a legitimate concern. I did not think of that.

EddieNFL:
That confirms what I had been told before. .22 rounds can travel over a mile. Thanks for the information.

50 cal
March 3, 2012, 09:24 PM
Sounds like the guy owned a glorified airgun range.

mgkdrgn
March 3, 2012, 09:33 PM
Next time put up the .22 and get out your Mosin ... see if he thinks that is any "safer".

Tim37
March 3, 2012, 09:42 PM
I probably was shooting a little fast - maybe one round every two seconds or so.
i personaly wouldnt consider that rapid fire. when you say rapid fire i think pulling the trigger as fast as possible.

also what does he expect people to shoot on the 100 yard range? sling shots, bows, maybe throw rocks at targets?

beatledog7
March 3, 2012, 09:50 PM
Comanche04:

My apologies, and no offense intended.

I didn't say you were unintelligent. You clearly are not. Being slow on the uptake happens to all of us, and is not a measure of intelligence. It's more closely related to being distracted or incredulous.

Comanche04
March 3, 2012, 09:57 PM
I'm sorry, beatledog. It is really difficult to determine tone on the Internet. :)

russ69
March 3, 2012, 10:36 PM
I'm sure the rapid fire (local rules, I guess) got the owners attention, that's what put you behind the 8 ball. Shooting a 22LR at 100 yards is not uncommon but the skill to do it accurately is. He may of had some concern for his target frames. At any rate, now you know not to do anything that will attract unwanted attention from the RO when shooting on a rifle range.

Safetychain
March 3, 2012, 10:54 PM
What is 'hold over'? I assume that you are saying that this the time it takes to re-sight your target. My goodness. This is a 22 caliber rifle that essentially has no recoil. The last time I had my little Remington 22 With its 2 power Daisy scope at the local National Forest range, I was putting 100% in a 3 inch circle at 50 yds while firing around 2 rounds per second or a tube of 16/18 (I can't remember its capacity) in around 10 seconds. That is why they are so fun to shoot.

beatledog7
March 3, 2012, 11:22 PM
Comanche,

No blood, no foul.

Tim the student
March 3, 2012, 11:23 PM
As it sounds like we all agree on, his range, his rules, and yours to abide by.

However, 1 round every two seconds doesn't sound very rapid to me, nor do I see anything strange with doing it with a .22.

22-rimfire
March 3, 2012, 11:45 PM
It almost sounds like you were shooting at the Garland TX range. They had a problem a while back.

230RN
March 4, 2012, 01:00 AM
Let's remember that this is a private range and he is extending a courtesy to folks. He was probably concerned with the Public Relations involved with his "many houses" nearby. He probably made an arrangement with some of the people in the "many houses" that people would "take it easy" on the range, however ill-defined that might be.

So take it easy. His range, his rules, and be thankful he lets folks shoot there on occasion.

By the way, did you know beforehand that it was a private range? Did you aks permission first?

A six-pack (or other little token) now and again for him might be appropriate, too. (This might even guarantee a spot to shoot even if he closes it to general access. I'm sure he shoots there, too.)

I shot prairie rats for many years on the farms around the Superior-Louisville-Lafayette areas, thinning out (you'll never get rid of them) their prairie rat population. The even let me shoot around their livestock because they trusted me, and every once in a while they'd slip me a ten for ammunition or whatever.

But they knew I was a responsible shooter, and they knew (I told them so) that the ammo I was using hardly ricocheted at all. I was using 52 or so grain SX (Super Explosive) Hornady bullets at high velocity in my .223, and basically, if one of those bullets even hit a blade of grass*, it would just shatter, and the particles did not go very far after that.

Terry, 230RN

* The "blade of grass" imagery is for the sake of illustration, but I never heard one single "pwaaang" of a ricochet in the ten years I used this load. These bullets had a very thin, almost foil-like, jacket and would not hold together at all even on a glancing impact, especially since they were spinning at about 190,000 RPM. On the other hand, .22s do not have enough velocity or spin (~70,000 RPM) to break up (unless they hit something like a steel plate head-on), and the whole bullet will ricochet for long distances.

The Lone Haranguer
March 4, 2012, 08:08 AM
Possibly a combination of the rapid fire and the fact that a .22 at 100 yds requires quite a bit of "hold over" and if overdone can miss the berm.
A plausible explanation. And a .22 can travel a mile. It may not have much power when it gets there, but can still cause personal injury or property damage.

The "houses nearby" part still doesn't add up. Are they directly downrange?

JohnBT
March 4, 2012, 08:19 AM
Rapid fire is probably a noise issue with the homeowners. He's probably had careless people with .22s shooting up the target holders at 100 yards while trying to figure out the holdover and decided to outlaw it.

Ask him.

Gun Geezer
March 4, 2012, 08:57 AM
Everybody has an opinion. Mine would be that 1 shot every 2 seconds is NOT rapid fire. Not even close.

The "hold over" needed for a 100-yd shot would depend on many things, but average ammo with a rifle zero'd at about 50 yards would only need a hold over of 5 to 6 inches. Even if zero'd at the muzzle, hold over would be only about 12 to 14 inches. Again, this all depends on the ammo's ballistics, but these are fairly reasonable hold over estimates. That berm would have to be awfully short for this to be an issue.

His range, but based on your comments, the owner is being a bit of goof.

bhk
March 4, 2012, 09:16 AM
My guess is that the landowner is less worried about 'hold over' than he is about bullets hitting short of the berm and richocheting over it. Bullets hitting the ground can easily leave the ground at an angle exceeding the angle they hit with. I have witnessed bullets 'bouncing' over berms many, many times.

My club uses a single berm for both the 100 and 200 yard target frames on one of its ranges. We cannot shoot pistol caliber rifles on this range for this very reason. We must use a separate range at the club (with 100 yard berms) for those rifles.

Old Dog Man
March 4, 2012, 10:39 AM
What bothers me is some guy that willl take and empty a clip as fast as he can, whem i'm trying to shoot ity-bity groups. Ranges should not allow that kind of shooting, just controlled firing. Al

TurtlePhish
March 4, 2012, 10:45 AM
Old Dog Man, why not? Some people like to shoot differently than others. If someone does something that bothers you, ask them nicely to stop or move to a different port.

deadin
March 4, 2012, 11:04 AM
Common definition of "Rapid Fire" is taken from Bullseye pistol as "5 shots in 10 seconds" i.e. 1 shot every 2 sec.
Actually it is even slower because if you get the first shot off at the "Fire" command, you have 10 seconds for the remaining 4 shots, so it comes out to be 2 1/2 sec. per shot...:p

Captains1911
March 4, 2012, 06:39 PM
Oops

Captains1911
March 4, 2012, 06:40 PM
What is 'hold over'? I assume that you are saying that this the time it takes to re-sight your target. My goodness. This is a 22 caliber rifle that essentially has no recoil. The last time I had my little Remington 22 With its 2 power Daisy scope at the local National Forest range, I was putting 100% in a 3 inch circle at 50 yds while firing around 2 rounds per second or a tube of 16/18 (I can't remember its capacity) in around 10 seconds. That is why they are so fun to shoot.
Hold over is basically the distance above point of impact you must aim to account for bullet drop at longer distances, assuming you haven't adjusted your sighting system for it.

bartman
March 6, 2012, 01:30 PM
So, it seems that it has been ascertained (and acknowledged) that it is, in fact, a private range. It also has been ascertained (and acknowledged) the the owner can come up with his own set of rules.

Ia anyone going to address the OP's question? Here it is again for those who might have missed it:
"I have always been told that .22 rounds can travel a great distance and ricochet easily. Was this what the owner was concerned about? I was under the impression that the large berms were sufficient, but I have heard that many ranges don't allow .22 caliber rifles on hundred-yard ranges. Is there a safety consideration I'm missing?"

So, can .22s travel a great distance and ricochet easily? Is there a safety concern that the OP is missing?

Flintknapper
March 6, 2012, 01:41 PM
I imagine his concern was fostered by several elements.

1. His perception that there was rapid fire going on.

2. His concern for hold over (and the ability of the shooter to judge it correctly)

3. The possibility that a fired round would end up "short" thus hitting the ground in front of the berm and possibly ricocheting over it. A valid concern for any cartridge.... but more likely with a short range weapon like .22 rimfire.

Captains1911
March 6, 2012, 02:18 PM
So, it seems that it has been ascertained (and acknowledged) that it is, in fact, a private range. It also has been ascertained (and acknowledged) the the owner can come up with his own set of rules.

Ia anyone going to address the OP's question? Here it is again for those who might have missed it:
"I have always been told that .22 rounds can travel a great distance and ricochet easily. Was this what the owner was concerned about? I was under the impression that the large berms were sufficient, but I have heard that many ranges don't allow .22 caliber rifles on hundred-yard ranges. Is there a safety consideration I'm missing?"

So, can .22s travel a great distance and ricochet easily? Is there a safety concern that the OP is missing?
I think several people here have addressed his questions.

Certaindeaf
March 6, 2012, 02:28 PM
Was that a rifle range or what? Or just a .22 range? I'd unlimber a boomer and boom boom. What kind of moustache was he wearing?

ny32182
March 6, 2012, 02:30 PM
You did not miss anything, there is no safety issue. No particular skill is required to hit the paper with a .22 at 100 yards.

I'd find another place to shoot.

230RN
March 13, 2012, 09:11 AM
Captains1911 noted,

Hold over is basically the distance above point of impact you must aim to account for bullet drop at longer distances, assuming you haven't adjusted your sighting system for it.
Otherwise known as Kentucky Elevationage.

As I mentioned (post 20), .22s are notorious for ricochets.

Terry, 230RN

murdoc rose
March 13, 2012, 09:22 AM
Best to look for a different place to shoot

230RN
March 14, 2012, 07:49 PM
^ "Best to look for a different place to shoot."

I respectfully disagree. With the constant shrinking of places to shoot, I would probably curry favor with that landowner. As I mentioned, if he has to close it to "public" access, it might be possible to retain the privileges for yourself.

JohnBT
March 15, 2012, 09:07 AM
"Ia anyone going to address the OP's question? Here it is again for those who might have missed it:"

"I have always been told that .22 rounds can travel a great distance..."


When I was a kid in the '50s and '60s every single box of 50 rounds of .22 rimfire had a statement on the end flap pointing out that you needed to be careful because the bullet could travel 1 1/2 miles. Have they stopped doing that?

Is google broken? Come on people, it's a gun and fires real ammo.

http://rivrdog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d834520df569e2014e88930746970d-800wi

Look at the box on the right. The statement across the bottom says: WARNING: Range 1.5 miles...etc. (It's easy to read if you bump the zoom setting to 200%.)

John

JohnBT
March 15, 2012, 09:09 AM
And see my earlier post where I said, "Ask him." We'd know why the owner had the rule. Don't challenge him, just ask. No whining.

hardluk1
March 15, 2012, 10:39 AM
If your 10/22 is capable of tight groups at 100 yards shooting 1 shot every 2 sconds walk him down to the target and let him see what controlled quick fireing is or can be. I had the same problem shooting a 357 revolver at 100 yards till the owner walked out and saw the groups. Show him the distance's used in most rimfire matchs that take shots out to 225 yards at steel plates.

It does burn my rearend at the dnr ranges when some one sets up at the 100 yard range and starts spray'n targets at ground level at 30 feet. Not what your doing. Most guys I see shooting .22lrs at 100 yards can shot groups many centerfire shooters would hope to be able to do.

bartman
March 15, 2012, 01:29 PM
I think several people here have addressed his questions.
Actually, not really, aside from "It's his range" and "He probably thinks...".

Other than the holdover issue, which seems to really be a non-issue, and the possibility of a squib load that Flintknapper referenced, are .22s more dangerous or more susceptible to ricochet than large caliber bullets? Or is that pretty much it?

tacdad
March 15, 2012, 01:54 PM
I don't see what the HUGE deal is over the "22 can go over a mile"......so what! He is allowing High caliber fire there (which can go MANY miles) then what is the big deal?

JohnBT
March 15, 2012, 07:37 PM
If someone would politely ask the owner everyone could stop guessing.

exavid
March 16, 2012, 01:28 AM
Yeah, if you had the wind at your back and elevate the barrel to about 45 degrees above the horizon a .22 slug could travel over a mile. What kind of energy it would have at that distance is debatable. As for rapid fire noise, it's hard to see why a .22 rifle's noise would even be noticed at a range where larger calibers are fired. Ricochet worse on .22s? Why? Physics should apply to bullets of all calibers pretty much the same.

JohnBT
March 16, 2012, 09:30 AM
"What kind of energy it would have at that distance is debatable."

It's not debatable, it is easily calculated.

exavid
March 16, 2012, 02:21 PM
Debatable in the amount of damage a .22 round could do at that distance. Energy can indeed be calculated but that hardly tells the whole story because at that distance and fired at such a high angle the round may have tumbled which is certainly going to reduce the energy at the end of its flight. Unstable flight is going to give up a goodly amount of energy to aerodynamic drag and increased heating due to more exposed area to it's slipstream.

JohnBT
March 16, 2012, 03:39 PM
Tumbled? Why do you think a round will tumble at a mile or more? If it tumbled at all at any point it wouldn't go that far. Couldn't go that far.

Heating? Slipstream? We haven't been reading the same external ballistics books and articles on rimfire ammo.

John

230RN
March 17, 2012, 01:05 PM
I think the questions of "how far" and "how much energy remains" and "how easily they ricochet" have been dealt with sufficiently.

The fact is, they will travel that far, do have sufficient remaining energy to do at least some damage, and yes, they will ricochet badly.

The more relevant fact, at this point, is that the landowner himself, as well as the neighbors, have genuine concerns about the above facts, and these genuine concerns must be considered in anyone's reaction to the landowner's request.

These genuine concerns must be dealt with regardless of the actual physics and numbers involved.

If the landowner and his neighbors "feel" that firing at a rate of a round every 2.4823 seconds is undesirable "rapid fire" shooting, so be it, and don't challenge them on it.

If the landowner wants you to keep a gallon of water handy while on his range, so be that, also.

In other words, be a "High Road Shooter," be smart, don't get all jaw-jutty and self-righteous about it, comply with the landowner's requests, and keep the place open for others.

There. I said it, and I ain't takin' it back.

Terry, 230RN

bhk
March 17, 2012, 01:48 PM
I think the questions of "how far" and "how much energy remains" and "how easily they ricochet" have been dealt with sufficiently.

The fact is, they will travel that far, do have sufficient remaining energy to do at least some damage, and yes, they will ricochet badly.

The more relevant fact, at this point, is that the landowner himself, as well as the neighbors, have genuine concerns about the above facts, and these genuine concerns must be considered in anyone's reaction to the landowner's request.

These genuine concerns must be dealt with regardless of the actual physics and numbers involved.

If the landowner and his neighbors "feel" that firing at a rate of a round every 2.4823 seconds is undesirable "rapid fire" shooting, so be it, and don't challenge them on it.

If the landowner wants you to keep a gallon of water handy while on his range, so be that, also.

In other words, be a "High Road Shooter," be smart, don't get all jaw-jutty and self-righteous about it, comply with the landowner's requests, and keep the place open for others.

There. I said it, and I ain't takin' it back.

Terry, 230RN
Very, very well said!!

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