Marlin 1895 SBL vs. Benelli M4 H2O


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16n69
March 4, 2012, 12:38 PM
What would be a better primary defense weapon while in large bear country (as I will find myself often in while in MT & AK...moving near Glacier and going often to AK.)...
...Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70 w/ Garrett 540-gr SuperHardCast Hammerhead
vs. Benelli M4 H2O w/ Brenneke Black Magic 3" slugs.

What would be a better secondary backup to either above...
the Glock 10mm w/ Heavy 10mm Ammo - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)...or the 4" S&W .500 w/ Buffalo Bore .500 Smith & Wesson Ammo - 440 gr. L.F.N.-G.C.(1,625fps/M.E.2579ft.lbs.) ?

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headoftheholler
March 4, 2012, 12:44 PM
I've seen first hand how devestating the Garretts are in 45-70 on Whitetail and hogs. These things just dont stop going, penetration is superb. A few years ago I shot a 200 lbs buck quartering towards me with the 540g and it broke the nearside shoulder , through the gut, shattered the pelvic bone, exited and went through a small poplar tree. Not discounting a huge 12 ga. slug, but I doubt the slug will penetrate half as much.

Dane17
March 4, 2012, 01:02 PM
45-70 for sure.

Exit wound on a hog with just a 325gr hornady LE.
http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww157/lenardlex/c77cd106.jpg

Redlg155
March 4, 2012, 01:05 PM
I vote vote the shotgun. When I lived in Alaska we would carry alternating buckshot and slug, starting with buckshot in the chamber. Some buckshot to the face would be a serious deterrant. I also would not stake my life on an auto. Give me a good 18" 870.

An added plus is that you can keep some bird shot on hand to pot the occasional grouse or ptarmigan!

jmr40
March 4, 2012, 06:23 PM
Slugs have proven to be poor performers. If all you have is a shotgun then load it up with the best slugs you can find.

Of those 2 the 45-70 is the better choice, but I'm not a fan of it or the Marlin lever guns. For a lot less trouble, expense, and recoil, a short barreled bolt rifle in 30-06, 35 Whelen, 338 Mag or larger loaded with proper ammo would serve you better.

16n69
March 4, 2012, 07:06 PM
OK guys...not just any "slugs"...not your typical foster soft lead, Brennekes are WAY different...massive damage & penetration.
and the Benelli M4 is not your typical "semi-auto"...as reliable,if not MORE than any pump gun with their short stroke issues, among others, especially under duress.
The M4, especially the new H2O, will fire if submerged in H2O:cool:...and from any position, with any loads, EXTREMELY reliable & very fast and is what the U.S. Marines have chosen, among others to bet their lives on!

Also, always heard that a bolt action is too slow, too long, too heavy for defense in the brush? ( big difference between hunting/long range shots and being "hunted" / defense )

Just wondering if anybody here has used both rounds/guns (any M4 or similar)
to waste or at least stop a charging Brownie?:eek:
My odds of having to do this is about to drastically rise, although, even exposed to areas with high pop., I hear it is still low odds of encounters w/ a "charge":uhoh:

Redlg155
March 4, 2012, 09:06 PM
It sounds as if you are set in the Benelli, which is a good choice. As for short stroking pump actions, that is a training issue rather than a design flaw. I would definitely say "no" on a bolt, unless you are 100 percent sure you can work it flawlessly under stress.I'd take a look at African Professional Hunters and see what they use. A adult male grizzly or brownie can be scary as hell. I'd rather not have to shoot one at short range and the chances are you may have to fire a warning shot.

I've fortunate and did not have a violent encounter with one. It sounds strange, but here in NW Fl I've been just as concerned about black bears. I've seen a few at 400 plus.

Jalexander
March 4, 2012, 11:07 PM
I'd take the 1895 because A) I already have one and know how to shoot it and B) that Benelli is as ugly as a mud fence. On the other hand, current (Remington) production Marlin firearms have an inordinate number of problems, so get an older short barrel .45-70 and swap out the stocks for the plywood stocks.

And regarding the supposed slowness of a bolt gun, I know for an absolute fact that someone who has a gun with a good, slick bolt and is very accustomed to it can work the bolt very, very fast. I've done it and hit what I was aiming at, but I mostly shoot lever guns these days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

James

tundraotto
March 5, 2012, 12:53 PM
1895gbl or similar in 45-70 is pretty hard to beat...lots more firepower in a much smaller package.

16n69
March 5, 2012, 02:07 PM
I'd take the 1895 because A) I already have one and know how to shoot it and B) that Benelli is as ugly as a mud fence. On the other hand, current (Remington) production Marlin firearms have an inordinate number of problems, so get an older short barrel .45-70 and swap out the stocks for the plywood stocks.

And regarding the supposed slowness of a bolt gun, I know for an absolute fact that someone who has a gun with a good, slick bolt and is very accustomed to it can work the bolt very, very fast. I've done it and hit what I was aiming at, but I mostly shoot lever guns these days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute

James
Thanks to you a nd ALL for your input...as to "ugly" on the Benelli H2O M4...I think it is sexy in gun term "sexy", as guns go, especially SG's...Benelli is known for making some of the BEST SG's on the planet while designed with good looks compared to the other SG brands...and "looks" are subjective and WHO CARES anyway, function is all that matters.

I may just go ahead and get both (Marlin 1895SBL 45-70 & Benelli M4 H2O)...two very different guns that could serve the same purpose on any given day...and being weather proofed (extremely so in the M2 H2O's case...)...will hold up good in MT. & AK. , I would think.
In the end, I think(others seem to agree) that the great "custom" hi-caliber (pun intended, lol) quality ammo/loads & bullet design offered by Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly & Double Tap, and for SG, Brenneke & Dixie Slugs.

And...as to the BUG, I may just go with the S&W model 500 s&w .500 on my hip and the Glock 10mm in a cross-draw or shoulder rig...in case the bear is packing...I will have 20 rnds for the fire-fight...lol.
Seriously, I'm told the 4" S&W shoots & handles better than the 8" and recoil is not as bad as some make it out.

Jalexander
March 5, 2012, 07:49 PM
Glad we were able to help you decide. My remark about the Benelli was more or less tongue in cheek, because although *I* wouldn't have one, we all have different tastes.

James

16n69
March 6, 2012, 12:51 PM
Glad we were able to help you decide. My remark about the Benelli was more or less tongue in cheek, because although *I* wouldn't have one, we all have different tastes.

James
I am getting both...M4 & 1895SBL 45-70...can never have too many guns...lol, huh?;)

Guess I will have to make darn sure I have one or the other with me,cocked & locked and ready to ROCK...and never depend on ANY HG...but I sm ordering the S&W model 500 s&w.500 today, and will become as proficient for ONE good shot as possible for that last ditch wing-and-a-prayer effort. before the crunch:eek:

16n69
March 6, 2012, 12:57 PM
1895gbl or similar in 45-70 is pretty hard to beat...lots more firepower in a much smaller package.
BTW...do you have this rifle and have you used it against a Grizzly?

tundraotto
March 6, 2012, 02:10 PM
no I haven't,

but I do have the 1895GBL

16n69
March 10, 2012, 01:03 AM
Has anyone used a Benelli semi-auto w/Brenneke or Dixie slugs or similar and on other occasions a Marlin 45-70 or similar...to good effect on large grizzly & Brownies?

benderx4
March 10, 2012, 09:37 AM
Make sure you get the tube extension for your M4. When it comes to bears, I'd want to have every round possible at my disposal. My M4 has been totally reliable with all kinds of high power loads.
Having said that, I do own a 1895SBL as well, and it has been my go-to rifle for hunting hogs. (Using Hornady Leverevolution 325 grains) I doubt you'd to wrong with either weapon. Personally, I wouldn't trust myself with a bolt action for bear protection, but I have limited experience with one.

As for your sidearm, I would think that some well-placed 44 magnums would be a great deterrent for bears as well, and would be much easier to carry. Too small? Did you consider the 5" Smith 460V? It's not very easy to find any more, but it can be done. The ballistics of the 460 stack up very nicely to that of the 500 without breaking the bank, or your hand. Good luck!

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7066/6965771187_9db933abeb_z.jpg

My Benelli with some friends.

Gordon
March 10, 2012, 02:45 PM
I have had an 1895 or 2 or 3 since 1973 and here are my feelings: The 45-70 is a great round and gives you a 200 yard kill range, more than twice what a Brenneke 12 ga slug has on game hardier than deer, besides the accuracy issue.
I don't have an M4 Benelli but I've had an M-1 Super 90 for almost 20 years and it has been stone reliable with even 3" monster slug diets.
The 1895 sometimes can have feeding and extraction issues especially around snow and ice in my experience. Maybe that is why they sell the odd bits to help those issues! I sure wouldn't want to worry about smooth cycling the lever during a bear charge.
In a bear attack remember the bear is coming at you so the SG has the advantage as you aren't drawing a bead as in hunting.
Personally I would get a 12ga Super Nova for $1000 less than the M-4 as you can keep the Nova "cruiser ready" which is really a safe and ready carry mode the M-4 can't do as fast, the rare m-3 COULD of course. And with that $1000 I'd buy a 30-06 stainless bolt gun, like a Rem 700 or Savage with fixed iron sights and put a Leupold VX2 2-7 in Warne lever mounts. This combo could be done easily under $1000 and would give you everything you would ever need for any game in the States (or any where really) out to too far AND you have the $450 12ga Super Nova for all your shotgun uses and personall protection even against the biggest bears. BTW the bears around Glacier wake up really nasty and hungry IMHO from spring hunts around there. Even worse than the ones I've met in AK during hunting season. Still with either of what I suggested you would have adequate equipment with the right ammo. The 12ga better for defensive carry tho IMHO.

eldon519
March 10, 2012, 05:15 PM
I was in the position to make a similar choice this past August on a trip to the Brooks Range for a week-long rafting/fishing trip. I own both an 1895 .45-70 Guide Gun and a 18.5" Remington 870. After asking around, the Remington got picked for the trip loaded with none other than the 3" Brenneke Black Magics you ask about. I can't testify to its effectiveness as I never shot them at anything other than paper. We saw about 10 bears during the trip, including one coming in camp the first night out, and it was very reassuring to have along. If I went back, I think I'd take the same gun. The Brenneke has a much higher Taylor Knock-Out value if you believe in that kind of thing.

Here is the poll I posted if you wish to read the responses:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=578437

CraigC
March 10, 2012, 06:42 PM
I'll take the rifle any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

IMHO, this crap about slugs and bears is the biggest, goofiest myth that won't die, perpetuated by a lot of weird perception and little actual fact. Bottom line is that a 12ga pump with slugs is recommended because everybody has one and if not, they are cheap and plentiful. NOT because they are the best tool for the job. Slugs are terrible for penetration and most have a sectional density comparable to the lightest handgun bullets. None of which prevents well intending folk from perpetuating the myth that shotguns are best for bears. They are not. A big bore rifle, like the Marlin in question, loaded with heavy, toughly constructed bullets has vastly superior terminal ballistics and will always be the better choice. Wanna know how to stop big, angry and tough critters? Don't listen to a bunch of regurgitated nonsense on the internet, find out what's been used successfully in Africa for the last 150yrs. It ain't shotguns.

conrad427
March 10, 2012, 08:31 PM
i love these what if's! Man, a backup for a 45-70 using hot rod loads would have to be a 20MM cannon. If i was not sure if the 45-70 was going to hold up through one mag full of ammo i would carry another 45-70 as back up.

Redlg155
March 10, 2012, 09:05 PM
I believe there is a bit if misinformation concerning slugs. If you attempt to use the old foster soft lead slugs, then yes, they aren't that great. Hornady has a 300 grain FTX bullet loaded in the 12 ga at 2000 fps. That's 45-70 territory.

As for Africa, they definitely are not using 45-70 as the typical caliber of choice. What I can say is that I felt very confident with my shotgun when I lived in Alaska. I would also be happy with my Marlin 45-70.

CraigC
March 11, 2012, 01:31 AM
I believe there is a bit if misinformation concerning slugs.
The best you can hope for in a 12ga slug is the Dixie Terminator. Still, its sectional density is equal to a .44cal 250gr Keith bullet. Stomping recoil, big hole, not much penetration compared to something like a 400gr .458.


Hornady has a 300 grain FTX bullet loaded in the 12 ga at 2000 fps.
Great for deer, possibly elk, not much else. Certainly not for bear. :rolleyes:


What I can say is that I felt very confident with my shotgun when I lived in Alaska.
How many charging bears did you stop with your slugs?


As for Africa, they definitely are not using 45-70 as the typical caliber of choice.
No, they're not but proper African cartridges are FAR more comparable to the .45-70, heavy .444Marlin and .405WCF than a shotgun slug.

tundraotto
March 11, 2012, 01:38 AM
lol - havent you made up your mind yet? Have you held either gun? I think the ballistics are pretty easy to look up.....what do you feel like carrying on you? AND what did you get!!!! :-)

saturno_v
March 11, 2012, 03:16 AM
Craig I respect your experiece with bears but let me ask you...have you ever seen the penetration of a 3" Brenneke Black Magic??

I heard it is extremely popular in Alaska and extremely effective on problem brownies....

Foster slugs and Brenneke Black magic are two very different animals....

Sheepdog1968
March 11, 2012, 03:25 AM
Dont forget to sign up for some classes to really learn how to shoot. Its probably more important than your weapon choice. A four or five day class would be optimal.

CraigC
March 11, 2012, 01:37 PM
The Black Magic doesn't impress me much. Here it is pictured with two proper dangerous game bullets. A 355gr .44 and a 425gr .475, both have a sectional density of around ~.270 and both will penetrate like a freight train. The Black Magic 'may' look somewhat impressive until you realize that its base is hollow and that its sectional density is dismal at .161, which is comparable to a 215gr .44. Now I don't know about you guys, the .44 makes a big enough hole but if I'm gonna shoot a bear with one, it sure as hell won't be a 215gr. Likewise, I won't go after one with a Brenneke slug either. Despite its name and marketing, there's nothing "magic" about it. It is held to all the same rules as every other cartridge. In actual testing, it penetrates about how you would expect it to. I will give it this, it is vastly superior to the old Foster type slugs.

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/miscellaneous/large/IMG_8835b.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/newfrontier45/miscellaneous/large/IMG_8843b.jpg

Gordon
March 11, 2012, 05:52 PM
I have been shooting 450 grain wide lead gas checked flat points from my 2 cavity LBT mold for 25 years. They do go clean thru 300 pound eurasian boar we have around here in abundance, they do not seem to have the knock down that a 12 guage Brenneke (old school) has from the ones I've killed in cage traps.
The thing about the Marlin 1895 series is with out custom work I do NOT find them smooth feeding under stress. The old 1886 Winchester seems better in that respect BTW. I have an 1895 that was modified and smoothed up by a master, but still dragging it around in alder thickets or icy places I'll take a mauser type bolt gun in a heavy caliber or for strickly defense, a Remington 12 ga. 870 IMHO. I dunno about the Benelli stuff but they work well in duck blinds in all weather.

Redlg155
March 11, 2012, 07:00 PM
Craig...and you have extensive experience with stopping bear charges?

I only qualify my remarks by having lived in Alaska and carrying a 12 ga. Would it be a good choice to hunt bears? of course not. I also carried a .44 mag on occassion. I would not hunt a grizzly or brown bear with that either.

I wonder, does anyone know what Alaska Wildlife Troopers carry while on foot patrol in the bush? I suspect a 12 Ga shotgun, but then they would be only perpetuating a myth....

http://dnr.alaska.gov/parks/safety/bears.htm

Alaska state agencies also suggest a 12 ga for firearms protection. hmmm..

Rmiller31
March 11, 2012, 10:02 PM
A friend of mine who lives in canada and does lots of hunting there and in Ak swears by a flare gun as the best bear deterrent. I can't say I've had the opportunity to test it and kinda hope I never have to.

CraigC
March 12, 2012, 12:51 AM
I wonder, does anyone know what Alaska Wildlife Troopers carry while on foot patrol in the bush?
They issue mostly 12ga shotguns. Not because it's the best choice but because they're cheaper than .375's. Of which they do not have enough for everyone. Make no mistake, the .375 is their first choice. However, I wouldn't go making my decisions based on what the government does or suggests. :rolleyes:

GooseGestapo
March 12, 2012, 09:52 AM
Although I've not taken a bear with the Brenneke, I have shot quite a few of them (ammunition). I used them for deer hunting back in the late '70's and early 80's.
I carried a M870 for quite a few years as a patrol gun, and it would be an "acceptable" bear defense alternative, but not "optimum". The Brenneke is "better" than the foster style slugs, but is still a "long way" from matching a heavy loaded .45/70, or .375 (or heavier/larger).
My personal choice would be the .45/70, as I have one, and loaded with my handload. However, If I "KNEW" I would need to shoot a bear, it would be my .375.....(Ruger M77 Hawkeye "Alaskan" w/23"bbl, but aftermarket Hogue stock).

Another thing not discussed is "follow up" shots. The shotgun with the Brenneke slugs kicks worse than a .458 Lott w/510gr bullets... Ask me how I know !!!! (hint, I've shot both.....even same day within moments of each other.....). Shotgun was my Rem. M870 w/20"bbl RifleSighted bbl; Rifle was a rechambered Interarms MkX "African" in .458Lott. I got to fire the Lott for the owner through my Chronograph. The ammo chrono'd 2,250fps with Hornady 510gr S.Pts. and Solids... I was suprised at the recoil; though substantial, not as much as I'd have thought/expected... from a 9.5lb rifle...

FWIW; a co-worker of my older brother had the occasion to shoot a brown/grizzly with a 12ga... It was in the late '70's while my brother was stationed in AK at Elmendorf, AFB. While camping out and fishing on the Susitna river, the "co-worker" awoke to the suprise that a bear (approx. 500lb grizz/brown) was "chomping" on his foot through the sleeping bag he was sleeping in... Having "only" a M870 w/18.5"bbl as his only gun, he had taken it, loaded with the then new Winchester 1oz slugs (2 3/4"); he had it next to the sleeping bag, loaded as he'd seen bears earlier in the day.
He fired the first round into the bears head at near contact distance. The remaining 4rds were fired into the rear of the departing bear. Troopers found the bear the next day about 75yds from the camp in the dense alders, dead.... The teeth marks/saliva on the sleeping bag and powder burns on the head/face of the bear kept him out of jail.......
So, I know the 12ga will "work". Even with "foster" style slugs... But, given the situation, I'd prefer the .45/70 or .375..... As they penetrate better and KICK LESS......allowing faster follow-up shots...

CraigC
March 12, 2012, 11:09 AM
Another thing not discussed is "follow up" shots. The shotgun with the Brenneke slugs kicks worse than a .458 Lott w/510gr bullets...
That's one thing folks tend to forget. Lightweight pump shotguns aren't made for shooting slugs and have atrocious recoil with them. Make that slug a Dixie Terminator 870gr at 1200fps and recoil will be intolerable. That is, intolerable recoil for a round with the same propensity to penetrate as a 250gr .44Spl Keith load. A big bore rifle puts A LOT more on the target, will smash heavy bones while penetrating deeply and does so without beating you up unnecessarily.

This is not a new concept people. Heavy for caliber (which means high sectional density), toughly constructed bullets at moderate velocity have been proven to work the best on dangerous game. Not flying ashtrays. My uncle's 800lb bear soaked up five .416's before giving up and right up until he fell over, he never showed any reaction to being hit. Do you really want to try and stop one with a scattergun??? Shotguns are recommended because they are cheap and most people already have one. Most folks going to Alaska would have no problem spending $200 on a used pump shotgun. This is "why", not because it's the best tool for the job. IMHO, it would be extremely foolish to take a shotgun and leave the .45-70 at home.

Certaindeaf
March 12, 2012, 11:40 AM
I've heard good things about the DDupleks Monolit steel slug.

http://www.ddupleks.lv/data/downloads/military/redeles_v1_2.pdf

16n69
March 12, 2012, 02:26 PM
I have had an 1895 or 2 or 3 since 1973 and here are my feelings: The 45-70 is a great round and gives you a 200 yard kill range, more than twice what a Brenneke 12 ga slug has on game hardier than deer, besides the accuracy issue.
I don't have an M4 Benelli but I've had an M-1 Super 90 for almost 20 years and it has been stone reliable with even 3" monster slug diets.
The 1895 sometimes can have feeding and extraction issues especially around snow and ice in my experience. Maybe that is why they sell the odd bits to help those issues! I sure wouldn't want to worry about smooth cycling the lever during a bear charge.
In a bear attack remember the bear is coming at you so the SG has the advantage as you aren't drawing a bead as in hunting.
Personally I would get a 12ga Super Nova for $1000 less than the M-4 as you can keep the Nova "cruiser ready" which is really a safe and ready carry mode the M-4 can't do as fast, the rare m-3 COULD of course. And with that $1000 I'd buy a 30-06 stainless bolt gun, like a Rem 700 or Savage with fixed iron sights and put a Leupold VX2 2-7 in Warne lever mounts. This combo could be done easily under $1000 and would give you everything you would ever need for any game in the States (or any where really) out to too far AND you have the $450 12ga Super Nova for all your shotgun uses and personall protection even against the biggest bears. BTW the bears around Glacier wake up really nasty and hungry IMHO from spring hunts around there. Even worse than the ones I've met in AK during hunting season. Still with either of what I suggested you would have adequate equipment with the right ammo. The 12ga better for defensive carry tho IMHO.
"as you can keep the Nova "cruiser ready" which is really a safe and ready carry mode the M-4 can't do as fast, the rare m-3 COULD of course."
don't understand what you mean by this...both have safety and can have rnd in the chamber w/safety on???

Scrumbag
March 12, 2012, 03:30 PM
To throw another option into the mix: about a Ruger 77 African in 9.3x62... Reliable M98 action, express sights, good penetrating bullet.

Seem to be some good deals on gunbroker when compared to a Benelli M4 or a Serious lever action.

Just my 2c.

ATB,

Scrummy

Youngster
March 12, 2012, 03:33 PM
The .45-70 and other big thumper rifles may be better ballistically but shotgun hard slugs have proven themselves to be up to the task and the shotgun itself is going to be lighter to carry, handier and quicker to bring to bear in a close range defense situation than most big bore rifles.

Certaindeaf
March 12, 2012, 03:41 PM
^
True. Recoil goes hand in hand with power. I don't even think they make a nine shot semi-auto elephant rifle for less than $1000.

CraigC
March 12, 2012, 04:02 PM
...the shotgun itself is going to be lighter to carry, handier and quicker to bring to bear in a close range defense situation than most big bore rifles.
Pure nonsense. My 870 with its 20" barrel is 7.2lbs unloaded and 40.5" overall. Marlin .45/70's run 6.75-7.5lbs. The 22" 1895SS is also 40.5" but the 18.5" variants are 37". A good levergun will be 8lbs tops, most less than that. There is no quicker handling long gun than a leveraction carbine. Sorry but this regurgitated fluff just doesn't withstand scrutiny.


The .45-70 and other big thumper rifles may be better ballistically but shotgun hard slugs have proven themselves to be up to the task...
Proof, what proof?

16n69
March 12, 2012, 04:30 PM
hmmm...I have read ALL these really good points, a lot semm quite subjective to personal bias vs. what actually works best...and I guess, in the end, this is REALLY impossible to "nail down", so to speak, as EVERY bear attack/charge is going to involve sightly different dynamics & every bear is different to some degree (size, mood, level of commitment to kill...etc.?)...so as long as caliber/ballistics seem worthy of POWER & PENETRATION required for between 500-1500 lbs. of charging adrenaline filled heavy muscled, fat & boned BEAST, pissed, alarmed, protective,hungry, whatever...
...I guess, for me, it comes down to what I can deploy, kinda aim(from any awkward position and fire quickly and with the quickest FOLLOW UP shot (I do not think proper weight has been given to a SECOND very quick "2nd chance" shot , in case the 1st aint so good() ...
[I]I know, not much time for even one sometimes...but not ALWAYS, I would guess)...THIS K.I.S.S. principle, for ME, will be a HUGE determining factor, as to what I carry in BIG BEAR Land.
After ALL said and done, given this "criteria"...I say Benelli M4 H20 loaded with either, Brenneke, D Dupleks, or Dixie hi-perfomance slugs...with the .500 S&W 4" revolver as las ditch BUG, of if the SG is not near...( most HIGHLY exaggerate how bad the recoil is for that, especially for one last shot...I find it fine, as do even the women in my life... "girly-men" need to get-a-grrip, no pun intended...lol ).

I really think, for me, not having to "THINK"..or manipulate a LEVER-PUMP-BOLT...under extreme duress & stress...just point & fire as fast & sure on target as possible, in the SHORTEST time...(having practiced with weapon & rnds, extensively )...is the ticket, for me.
I do not have years & years, thousands of rnds. fired thru ONE "action", be it lever, pump or bolt...that it becomes "second nature" that I could cycle fast without possibly causing a jam myself, due to muscles tightening...or whatever.
A super reliable semi-auto good enough for the US Marines & L.E. that is battle proven... is something I'd rather bet my life on...
... the speed and simplicity of aiming and pulling that trigger repeatedly, putting as much lead on target in the shortest time, and YES of course doing the BEST to make that 1st shot REALLY count (shot placement ):)

CraigC
March 12, 2012, 04:41 PM
Good luck, because if you're not willing to spend the time necessary to become proficient with your chosen weapon, whatever that may be, you're certainly going to need it. Sorry but the semi-auto seems to be lending you a false sense of security that all you have to do is point and pull the trigger. If you think you're just gonna point & blast with that .500 you've got another thing coming. Girly men? Grow up and drop the macho rhetoric.

Certaindeaf
March 12, 2012, 04:51 PM
There's always something "better". Perhaps. Like that's new. Covetous and prideful creatures that we are. We all must/will make our own decisions in life. not really a rocket.
I'd whap a bear with a slug were it necessary and not whine about it were I to fail/die.

Youngster
March 13, 2012, 12:25 AM
Pure nonsense. My 870 with its 20" barrel is 7.2lbs unloaded and 40.5" overall. Marlin .45/70's run 6.75-7.5lbs. The 22" 1895SS is also 40.5" but the 18.5" variants are 37". A good levergun will be 8lbs tops, most less than that. There is no quicker handling long gun than a leveraction carbine. Sorry but this regurgitated fluff just doesn't withstand scrutiny.

I said "most", not "all". Also even a pump is likely going to be a bit quicker to deliver follow up shots than a lever, let alone a bolt, a good 12 gauge semiauto could probably empty the magazine before you got off a second shot with a big lever.

Proof, what proof?

I can't physically show up at your doorstep with a pile of dead bears, but I've spoken to enough folks who work in grizzly and polar bear country and have used them in self defense, that I would and *do* trust them during my own forays into bear country.

16n69
March 13, 2012, 12:30 AM
Good luck, because if you're not willing to spend the time necessary to become proficient with your chosen weapon, whatever that may be, you're certainly going to need it. Sorry but the semi-auto seems to be lending you a false sense of security that all you have to do is point and pull the trigger. If you think you're just gonna point & blast with that .500 you've got another thing coming. Girly men? Grow up and drop the macho rhetoric.
Where do you get..."you're not willing to spend the time necessary to become proficient with your chosen weapon, whatever that may be..."...did I say that I was NOT going to practice a bunch with what I chose???
No, I said that I have not spent the time I feel is required "WITH ANY ONE SYSTEM/ACTON...that that gun is second nature under stress...not that I will not when I figure what the BEST for this application will be...and I KNOW the possibility of encountering a bear attack is gonna be very possible where I am going to be,,,often.
What I was saying, and you may have misunderstood, as I kept prefacing my "ideas" with the phrase "for me"...so not to insult anyone else's ability or firearm preference...what I really believe is that anybody would be better off with a really good & reliable semi-auto shooting a hard hitting penetrating round, given those who have been there done that...describe the speed of these attacks and the stress put on you to respond quickly.
I have taken into account the varying "opinions" of all who responded to my 3 threads relating to this subject, which may sound like I am obsessed with this, but really I just need to be prepared as best I can. It is by choice and also by necessity that I will be in MT. most often, family stuff.

Also, you just seem to be down on shotguns maybe like to argue for your pet rifles and many here do not agree?
Modern "boutique" Hi-Power slug designs seem to test out to penetrate as well as the big bore rifle rnds & cast bullets and deliver as much energy close range where everyone seems to agree is where the bear will be...CLOSE.

dprice3844444
March 13, 2012, 12:38 AM
http://www.magnumresearch.com/Browse.asp?Category=BFR:Revolvers 45/70

Gordon
March 13, 2012, 01:05 AM
I'm with Craig C, and if you are going around with an M4 with one up the spout and relying on the safety, I'll put you on point . BTW cruiser ready is a full mag and the chamber empty. You would find stroking a pump about as fast as finding a safety. The M4 you would want a bigger bolt knob to carry in that sane mode if you are performing daily activities. The M4 is also pretty dang heavy burden compared to a Nova H20 say BTW. A rifle is the only wilderness tool that can do it all tho - hunt AND defense and I would find a 30-06 to a .375 about perfect for such chores, in the real world.

Certaindeaf
March 13, 2012, 01:16 AM
.A rifle is the only wilderness tool that can do it all..
If you stuff that .375 barrel flush to the crown with 9 shot, you'll be lucky to hit paper at ten yards. That's code for har.

Dane17
March 13, 2012, 01:33 AM
The 45-70 has killed the big 5 in Africa. Penetration with modern hard cast loads is 5-6 feet. In its lower powered original forum it eradicated the American buffalo.

I'm sure the 12 gauge has merits but it really does not compare to the 45-70 for killing large dangerous game.

Certaindeaf
March 13, 2012, 01:53 AM
The 45-70 has killed the big 5 in Africa. Penetration with modern hard cast loads is 5-6 feet..
So has the 7x57 and probably the .22.

Most handguns will penetrate 40".

CraigC
March 13, 2012, 08:42 AM
No, I said that I have not spent the time I feel is required "WITH ANY ONE SYSTEM/ACTON...that that gun is second nature under stress...not that I will not when I figure what the BEST for this application will be...and I KNOW the possibility of encountering a bear attack is gonna be very possible where I am going to be,,,often.
Then I misunderstood and apologize.


Also even a pump is likely going to be a bit quicker to deliver follow up shots than a lever, let alone a bolt, a good 12 gauge semiauto could probably empty the magazine before you got off a second shot with a big lever.
Wrong on all counts. The levergun in capable hands gives up very little, if any to even a semi-auto. Mainly because the lever is operated while coming down from recoil. Which is not something that can be hurried. So the actual time between controlled, aimed shots is going to be similar. This is well proven. Besides, it's the first shot that counts.


I've spoken to enough folks who work in grizzly and polar bear country and have used them in self defense, that I would and *do* trust them during my own forays into bear country.
Third-hand anecdotal information doesn't carry much weight.


Also, you just seem to be down on shotguns maybe like to argue for your pet rifles and many here do not agree?
I'm not down on shotguns, I've probably spent more on shotguns than 90% of the people here. I'm down on shotguns for this purpose, because it just doesn't compute. Period. At all. It seems to have this mystical quality that defies all laws of nature and physics. For whatever reason, people believe the 12ga slug can be bested by nothing short of a 20mm cannon. Fortunately for those of us in the real world, perception does not equal reality. I believed it too once and for the same reasons. Until one day I decided to think for myself and after doing some calculations and research, I changed my thinking. Because the slug is not magical. It has to abide by all the same rules. Those rules state that for deep penetration you need a toughly constructed projectile with a high sectional density. This is well-proven and beyond question over +100yrs of use in Africa. This rules out the Foster slug immediately. Because it's too soft and has a lower sectional density than roundball, if you can believe that. The Black Magic is certainly better, it's hardcast and heavier but still not heavy enough. Like I said, comparable to lighter jacketed pistol bullets. Finally, with the Dixie Terminator we're getting into range but it's still only comparable to standard weight pistol bullets. Not even in the same zip code as a 4050gr .45/70 or 355gr .444, let alone a 300gr .375, 400gr .416, .405 or .450/.400.


Modern "boutique" Hi-Power slug designs seem to test out to penetrate as well as the big bore rifle rnds & cast bullets and deliver as much energy close range where everyone seems to agree is where the bear will be...CLOSE.
But they do not penetrate as well. They penetrate how we should expect them to, according to their sectional density.


If you stuff that .375 barrel flush to the crown with 9 shot, you'll be lucky to hit paper at ten yards.
What does this even mean???


So has the 7x57 and probably the .22.
This is irrelevant and neither are legal.

16n69
March 13, 2012, 02:56 PM
Then I misunderstood and apologize.



Wrong on all counts. The levergun in capable hands gives up very little, if any to even a semi-auto. Mainly because the lever is operated while coming down from recoil. Which is not something that can be hurried. So the actual time between controlled, aimed shots is going to be similar. This is well proven. Besides, it's the first shot that counts.



Third-hand anecdotal information doesn't carry much weight.



I'm not down on shotguns, I've probably spent more on shotguns than 90% of the people here. I'm down on shotguns for this purpose, because it just doesn't compute. Period. At all. It seems to have this mystical quality that defies all laws of nature and physics. For whatever reason, people believe the 12ga slug can be bested by nothing short of a 20mm cannon. Fortunately for those of us in the real world, perception does not equal reality. I believed it too once and for the same reasons. Until one day I decided to think for myself and after doing some calculations and research, I changed my thinking. Because the slug is not magical. It has to abide by all the same rules. Those rules state that for deep penetration you need a toughly constructed projectile with a high sectional density. This is well-proven and beyond question over +100yrs of use in Africa. This rules out the Foster slug immediately. Because it's too soft and has a lower sectional density than roundball, if you can believe that. The Black Magic is certainly better, it's hardcast and heavier but still not heavy enough. Like I said, comparable to lighter jacketed pistol bullets. Finally, with the Dixie Terminator we're getting into range but it's still only comparable to standard weight pistol bullets. Not even in the same zip code as a 4050gr .45/70 or 355gr .444, let alone a 300gr .375, 400gr .416, .405 or .450/.400.



But they do not penetrate as well. They penetrate how we should expect them to, according to their sectional density.



What does this even mean???



This is irrelevant and neither are legal.
You make intelligent points...so do others...however, you keep repeating the terms "research & calculations and sectional density" , as if that is the be-all end-all?
On paper, you may be correct...numbers "show" etc., etc. , but what a bout the real world shootings?
Big bears are routinely dispatched, so those who have done it say, with good slugs..no apparent difference to the BEARs, apparently wether hit a few feet away by a hardcast or a slug...and NO respect as to the gun, caliber or bullet design...apparently.

It seems that reasonable power, penetration and the KING "placement" is all that REALLY matters?
Someone correct me if my logic based on ALL the opinions & advice given here...is in flawed or in error?

Youngster
March 13, 2012, 03:20 PM
CraigC

Folks, including highly paid professionals who can afford any system they want, favor the shotgun and hard slug combo in places where the bears tend to be a lot bigger and meaner than in Tennessee. That pretty much speaks for itself.

Anyway, there's no way one can run a lever as fast as a modern semi shotgun, especially in non optimal conditions, like being in an awkward position or what have you.

CraigC
March 13, 2012, 03:25 PM
...however, you keep repeating the terms "research & calculations and sectional density" , as if that is the be-all end-all?
It is, not by itself but because it is based on well proven knowledge from 100yrs of hunting in Africa. Until somebody writes a book like John Taylor's "African Rifles & Cartridges" about killing big bears and has positive things to say reinforced with a lot of real world experience with slugs on bears, I'll stand firmly.

Ever notice, nobody goes bear hunting with a shotgun? Famous gunwriter and bear guide Phil Shoemaker would rather have a .30-06 than a 12ga if that tells you anything. This is the only subject in which people have been brainwashed into thinking that a $200 pump shotgun is a dangerous game rifle.


Big bears are routinely dispatched...
Where is the information on these routine dispatches??? I can give you penetration testing results all day long but you shotgun guys never produce anything but a very limited, very misleading and very outdated USFS test.


there's no way one can run a lever as fast as a modern semi shotgun
For controlled, aimed fire you'll be proven wrong every time.


Folks, including highly paid professionals who can afford any system they want, favor the shotgun and hard slug combo ...
Name them! Oh, I forgot, this is the internet. All you need is an opinion and never have to actually prove anything. :rolleyes:


...where the bears tend to be a lot bigger and meaner than in Tennessee.
Why do people like to make the silly assumption that the current location listed in your profile is the only place you've ever been in your life. Two of the most prolific hunters I know and know of live in Florida and Arizona. :rolleyes:

CraigC
March 13, 2012, 03:32 PM
It never ceases to amaze me. No matter how often this discussion comes up, I always provide hard data (not going to the effort this time, try searching) the shotgun crowd always counters with in "they work, because people say so" with little more supporting......anything.

Welcome to the internet, where a shotgun slug that has the same propensity to penetrate as a 225gr pistol bullet is bear-stopper supreme. :rolleyes::barf:

tundraotto
March 13, 2012, 04:36 PM
I know the slugs from a shotgun are very prolific among all hunters and guides in Africa for dangerous game.....lmao

Dane17
March 13, 2012, 06:47 PM
So has the 7x57 and probably the .22.

Most handguns will penetrate 40".
They weren't up for discussion, neither were spears, slingshots, or well thrown rocks.

Redlg155
March 13, 2012, 09:40 PM
wow....I am suprised that this thread is still going back and forth.

It pretty much boils down to proficiency, confidence and mindset no matter what weapon or caliber/guage that you choose. I would bet that a confident man with a 12 ga would be more effective than one with a 45-70 believing it will fail...vice versa.

There are merits to both sides. I haven't seen any real life data in defensive situations to conclusively support either side. The majority of armed encounters with a bear will not end in a lethal encounter.

16n69
March 13, 2012, 11:53 PM
It is, not by itself but because it is based on well proven knowledge from 100yrs of hunting in Africa. Until somebody writes a book like John Taylor's "African Rifles & Cartridges" about killing big bears and has positive things to say reinforced with a lot of real world experience with slugs on bears, I'll stand firmly.

Ever notice, nobody goes bear hunting with a shotgun? Famous gunwriter and bear guide Phil Shoemaker would rather have a .30-06 than a 12ga if that tells you anything. This is the only subject in which people have been brainwashed into thinking that a $200 pump shotgun is a dangerous game rifle.



Where is the information on these routine dispatches??? I can give you penetration testing results all day long but you shotgun guys never produce anything but a very limited, very misleading and very outdated USFS test.



For controlled, aimed fire you'll be proven wrong every time.



Name them! Oh, I forgot, this is the internet. All you need is an opinion and never have to actually prove anything. :rolleyes:



Why do people like to make the silly assumption that the current location listed in your profile is the only place you've ever been in your life. Two of the most prolific hunters I know and know of live in Florida and Arizona. :rolleyes:
"Ever notice, nobody goes bear hunting with a shotgun? Famous gunwriter and bear guide Phil Shoemaker would rather have a .30-06 than a 12ga if that tells you anything. This is the only subject in which people have been brainwashed into thinking that a $200 pump shotgun is a dangerous game rifle."

...Oh com'n now Craig, that is just silly...you're slipping now, no one goes hunting bear with a shotgun...because shotguns with slugs, from a smoothbore gun are not flat shooting enough and the velocity at a distance drops as does the slug...
HUNTING vs. DEFENSE (at a very CLOSE range) are two VERY different propositions !

Here is an email to me from the owner of Brenneke ...he can back up his claims with research & hard facts...
"There is no doubt or question a slug at long range will not perform as well as a bullet designed for the type of animal it is intended. However, at a reasonable closer distance, a well designed 12 ga slug will provide better penetration, equal or possibly somewhat better accuracy for both hunting and defense purposes. Several years ago, as the slug market began to expand, most all of the ammunition companies increased their effort to have a better performing slug. They appeared to be more interested in attempting to prove accuracy and paying little to no attention to penetration. As this was taking place, Brenneke USA did not believe some the the claims being made and the law of gravity was not even being considered in some of their ads. BOA decided at that time to invest a rather substantial amount of money and went to one of the few ballistics experts in the industry and have some of our 12 ga slugs compared with competitive slugs being advertised by the major competitors. The tests were conducted outdoors, bench rest, during the Fall with varying winds. The slugs were purchased by them from dealers and distributors. You may or not be aware BOA offers an array of different slugs, designed for specific shooting needs - - some for closer range with lighter recoil and not as deep penetration and others for longer distances depending on their specific purpose. and having deep controlled penetration, weight retention, and accuracy. The tests proved without question all of the BOA slugs out performed all competitors. Most of their claims were either overstated and some not even possible. You have some of these files with the proven results documented using high speed photography professional lab tests using FBI ballistics gelatin and obviously a lot of shooting a various distances. Some of the blocks were thrown 3 to 4 feet in the air. Enough said, although there is much more that goes into the design of all BOA slugs before they are offered for sale - - one being actual field tests done on animals the slug was designed for, including large animals found in Africa and other European countries. Before BOA markets a slug a minimum of 1 to 2 years go into actual performance."

"As I pointed out above some of what is written has merit, showing different ways of attempting to evaluate the performance of a moving projectile after it hits the target. There other ways as well including Ballistic Coefficients, Hard Barriers, Soft Barriers, High Speed Photography, and in our case using the High Momentum Factor Average Terminal Velocity and comparing BOA slugs with various bullets. All of this was determined comparing weight, diameter, frontal area, velocity, energy, and momentum and supported with all of the above tests. Several facts were not represented with the BOA slugs designed for large and and dangerous animals. The article refers to Foster slugs now being used by our competitors Only one Foster slug is offered, the KO economy priced slug designed for hunters who hunt at close range - - optimum performance 50 to 60 yards.. BOA stopped using Foster slugs about 8 years ago and now use a patented Better Energy Transfer Wad (BET). You can read about in the hunting catalog. It is far more superior compared to a Foster slug. I do not believe the explanation of (SD) in the article includes the fact that BOA adds a very expensive alloy (Antimony) to their lead to harden the lead so it will maintain its original shape and weight throughout the wound channel.

In the article it states "a long, thin projectile penetrates better then a short fat projectile - - I have to disagree. When shooting a dangerous animal "big" is considered better. The massive frontal area of a BOA slug, with the designed knob on the front of the slug, opens to almost 80 caliber immediately on impact, retains almost all of its original shape and weight throughout the wound channel - - is far more devastating then a much smaller bullet in diameter with far less weight finding a vital area is not what I would want to have when faced with a Grizzly, Brown, mad Moose, or any other large animal coming at me. The article refers to 10 yards distance for a slug. If this was the case I most definitely would want the much larger slug rather then a thin longer bullet taking time to hopefully finding a vital organ. I can assure you the 10 yard distance for a slug maximum performance is also misstated with a BOA slug as the article points out.. The Alaska State Police, as well as almost all other government agencies in Alaska would not place their officers or people in a situation where they would have to dispose of a renegade bear and getting as close as 10 yards? All of the AK officers and cadets are trained at their academy using BOA slugs - - and all carry them on the job. They also are equipped with centerfire rifles but their choice for large animal control is a Brenneke USA slug. They shoot far more renegade animals in Alaska then they shoot people.

One last point - - also in the article the slug comparison is being made with a 1 oz Foster slug - - 437 oz. The BOA Heavy Field Short Magnum Green Lightning and the Special Forces Short Magnum are both 1 1/4 oz/525 grains - - non Foster slug. The 3 inch Black Magic 1 3/8 oz/600 grains is also not a Foster slug.

As I pointed out before - - what you decide to have on hand for protection is your choice - - a large caliber rifle or a shotgun with a high performance slug. If you want to shoot a Brown, Grizzly or Silver Tip at at 200 yards - - choose the rifle and make sure you have a large sized (SD) bullet to go with it.

Good luck and hope you are not placed in a situation where you have to protect your family.as well, as yourself but it is always best to be prepared."

Charlie.
-----Original Message-----
From: Louis Verardo III <luigi4160@gmail.com>
To: kaychaze <kaychaze@aol.com>
Sent: Wed, Feb 15, 2012 10:29 pm
Subject: Re: BrennekeUSA

16n69
March 14, 2012, 12:44 AM
I think for me it will be a semi-auto, either Benelli H2O (impossible to find right now) w/ Brennek-Dixie-Ddupleks vs. Browning BAR in .338 Win. mag. vs.
AR15 in .458 SOCOM.
I think the .458 SOCOM may have the edge in close quarter stopping power...
heavy wght. bullets, variety of bullet design, good sectional density and penetration...lots of quick followup firepower.

COR-BON 458 SOCOM 405gr JSP 1600fps/2303 ft.lbs. 16.0" B/L

COR-BON 45-70 Govt. 405gr FPPN 1600fps/2303 ft.lbs. 18.5" B/L

Although...it looks like these modern hi-tech "slugs" from these 3 mnftrs. Brennek-Dixie-Ddupleks...give up nothing to the beloved big bore hard-casts?

Here's an interesting article form The Dixie Slug site:
http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/Dangerous_Game_Single_Shot.pdf
or this one...http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/Force_Factor.pdf (Craig may like to read this one...lol)
...just a couple of excerpts from this second article above :

"So, have we defined killing power, not really! There are just too many variables to do that. What we have done it set up a method of comparing the Force generated by one bullet to another. If we were to recover a bullet from a cartridge that was accepted for a certain weight animal we could compare the Force Factor generated by another bullet (knowing the impact velocity, weight, and Area of the Meplat (expanded or not) of the recovered bullet. "...

..."Final Force Factor Calculation-Dixie Slugs Xterminator
For the last example: Let’s take the Dixie Slugs Xterminator and work it through. We have a .730” bullet/slug weighing 730 grs with a velocity of 1400’/”. .1043 X 1400 X .4185 equals a Factor of 61.11. Obviously a powerful load for heavy and/or dangerous game in dense cover! Dixie Slugs is re-introducing, and exceeding, the famous large bore Paradox loads in 12 bore and 20 bore for modern shotguns with rifled barrels and rifles chambered for 12 and 20 bore.
We have discussed (and maybe cussed) the importance of understanding the dynamics involved with terminal performance of bullets in living tissue. I hope this write-up has shed some new light on the importance of selecting a proper bullet shape, especially the meplat. We are just beginning to understand what really happens, and why it happens, when the various bullet designs are used. Testing will go on, revised designs will be born, and bullet efficiency will be increased. That's the nature of things!"

CraigC
March 14, 2012, 09:04 AM
Although...it looks like these modern hi-tech "slugs" from these 3 mnftrs. Brennek-Dixie-Ddupleks...give up nothing to the beloved big bore hard-casts?
Like I said, they penetrate how one 'should' expect them to. Linebaugh's penetration testing, which was posted on Dixie's own website, showed them to penetrate like a 250gr Keith bullet. Which is of comparable sectional density and run at similar velocity. But you go ahead and believe in the myth if you want. If a big fat red flag doesn't go up when the guy from Brenneke says "In the article it states a long, thin projectile penetrates better then a short fat projectile - - I have to disagree. When shooting a dangerous animal "big" is considered better.", then we have no more to talk about. This is complete nonsense and flies in the face of EVERYTHING we KNOW about dangerous game killing. He's a salesman, don't forget that.


I think the .458 SOCOM may have the edge in close quarter stopping power...

Ya think???


I know the slugs from a shotgun are very prolific among all hunters and guides in Africa for dangerous game....
If you believe that I've got some swampland in Arizona you might be interested in.

Gordon
March 14, 2012, 11:32 AM
I think this thread should be continued when you post pictures of the gun you BOUGHT , maybe being used in a firearms training class.:banghead:

16n69
March 14, 2012, 11:36 AM
wow....I am suprised that this thread is still going back and forth.

It pretty much boils down to proficiency, confidence and mindset no matter what weapon or caliber/guage that you choose. I would bet that a confident man with a 12 ga would be more effective than one with a 45-70 believing it will fail...vice versa.

There are merits to both sides. I haven't seen any real life data in defensive situations to conclusively support either side. The majority of armed encounters with a bear will not end in a lethal encounter.
Makes sense to me...

16n69
March 14, 2012, 11:47 AM
I think this thread should be continued when you post pictures of the gun you BOUGHT , maybe being used in a firearms training class.:banghead:
Why would I need to do that. I have had plenty of all around "training"...just need to hone it in on one specific gun/action/caliber so I can really focus on it and become proficient with this one gun or "action type", instead of the many I have had. When it comes to self defense for bears...I no longer want to be kinda a "jack of all trades and master of none"...
...but a "training class", I do not think I need that after 30 yrs. shooting.
Unless you are talking about a training class that has charging brown bears in a controlled environment willing to be shot;)

Anyway, unless someone like Craig...can find serious issue with the .458 SOCOM as a good bear defense rifle & round as he did with the SG & slugs...
....looks very viable to me, and AR15's are after all battle proven as well. And if the 45-70 is a "darling" of dangerous game defense...well the SOCOM matches it.

heavy wght. bullets, variety of bullet design, good sectional density and penetration...lots of quick followup firepower.

COR-BON 458 SOCOM 405gr JSP 1600fps/2303 ft.lbs. 16.0" B/L

COR-BON 45-70 Govt. 405gr FPPN 1600fps/2303 ft.lbs. 18.5" B/L

CraigC
March 14, 2012, 12:11 PM
The only problem with the .458SOCOM is that you have to use jacketed bullets. You definitely want to use something at least 400gr and toughly constructed. I'd prefer a levergun in .405WCF, .444Marlin (1-20" twist), .45/70 or bigger; or a boltgun in .375H&H or bigger but would take the .458SOCOM any day of the week over a shotgun.

I hope you handload.

tundraotto
March 14, 2012, 12:31 PM
your 45-70 energy seems low....

300 (Strong) JHP 2,275 ft/s (693 m/s) 3,449 ft·lbf (4,676 J)
Test barrel length: 24"
Source(s): Accurate Powder[2][3][4]

16n69
March 14, 2012, 12:46 PM
No Craig, incorrect, you can use ANY .458 bullet, the same used for any in this caliber.
"The only problem with the .458SOCOM is that you have to use jacketed bullets."
***See the attached photo Craig...notice the hardcast FN rnd in the center as well as some of the other non-FMJ rounds...

"I hope you handload."
Why?

I was hoping this thread would not degenerate into a contest between 2 members/posters...especially an "academic" debate with paper stats...as Craig is so fond of?
I really wanted to hear from the guys who have been charged, mauled, killed or are out there in AK. , MT. & WY. every day dealing with these massive predators. Especially those who are there out of need or career... instead of me, there by choice. The odds for them to be attacked go up dramatically.
As others have said, I doubt Craig, who has taken over this thread with ballistic stats and storybooks from African hunters/authors like Taylor...classic info for what works when HUNTING the BIG 5 and such, but have little to do with a 1-3 second charge. thru dense woods & growth, from a N.A. Brown Bear largest/strongest predator on Earth that Lions & Tigers can't even match...
...sitting there in TN. can tell me about what a charge will be like and what the "pros" use and have been successful with.

Can I please hear from the AK., MT., WY. members once and for all...so I can END this thread, instead of the Moderator getting fed up...before I can get the insight I sought?

Question:
Am I FOOLISH for going into BIG bear country with a battle proven very reliable, HIGH QUALITY, gunsmith checked & worked big bore SEMI-AUTO rifle such as the AR-15 in .458 SOCOM...( for you "ballistic" lovers...EQUAL to the 45-70 Govt. )
...or the AK. Guide, Police & Ranger approved SG with Brenneke-Dixie-Ddupleck MODERN hi-tech ballistic tested & proven slugs...
and use the Benelli M4 Military tested US Marine appropriated battle proven semi-auto SG.???



16n69
March 14, 2012, 01:10 PM
your 45-70 energy seems low....

300 (Strong) JHP 2,275 ft/s (693 m/s) 3,449 ft·lbf (4,676 J)
Test barrel length: 24"
Source(s): Accurate Powder[2][3][4]
I used the rifle load ballistic chart provided by Cor-Bon on thier site and CHOSE the heavy of the two bullets offered...405gr.

The other load they sell is closer to yours...but uses only a 350gr. bullet like your lighter 300gr.
Commercial cartridge from a high quality specialty ammo maker ( not a personal handload)...
and who wants a 24" barrel for bear defense in dense growth...find me those ballistics from a commercial rnd FROM a 18.5" barrel???

HT4570B350/20 45-70 Govt** 350gr BC 1800fps/2519ftlbs 18.5 –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
HT4570405FPN/20 45-70 Govt** 405gr FPPN 1600fps/2303ftlbs 18.5

CraigC
March 14, 2012, 01:43 PM
No Craig, incorrect, you can use ANY .458 bullet, the same used for any in this caliber.
Uh, bullet lube in the gas system???


"I hope you handload."
Why?
Because factory ammo is terribly expensive and I thought you wanted to shoot enough to be "proficient"?


...for you "ballistic" lovers...EQUAL to the 45-70 Govt...
Yeah, only 400fps slower.


who wants a 24" barrel for bear defense in dense growth
In the real world, barrel length is not as relevant as some would have you believe.


...or the AK. Guide, Police & Ranger approved SG with Brenneke-Dixie-Ddupleck MODERN hi-tech ballistic tested & proven slugs...
Make no mistake here whatsoever, the USFS would issue .375 boltguns to everyone if they could afford them. This is not speculation or conjecture.


I'm left wondering if this is a "real" discussion or just an academic exercise.

tundraotto
March 14, 2012, 03:00 PM
I used the rifle load ballistic chart provided by Cor-Bon on thier site and CHOSE the heavy of the two bullets offered...405gr.

The other load they sell is closer to yours...but uses only a 350gr. bullet like your lighter 300gr.
Commercial cartridge from a high quality specialty ammo maker ( not a personal handload)...
and who wants a 24" barrel for bear defense in dense growth...find me those ballistics from a commercial rnd FROM a 18.5" barrel???

HT4570B350/20 45-70 Govt** 350gr BC 1800fps/2519ftlbs 18.5 –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
HT4570405FPN/20 45-70 Govt** 405gr FPPN 1600fps/2303ftlbs 18.5
OK - read it and weep....

45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 430 gr. LBT-LFN (1925 fps/M.E.3,537 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box
Item 8A (430gr. Hard Cast penetrator)

1920 fps -- Marlin 1895, 22 inch barrel
1879 fps -- Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, 18.5 inch barrel

Item 8A -- for game where 5 to 6 feet of straight line non-expanded penetration is needed.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=150

Like I said...

Float Pilot
March 14, 2012, 05:06 PM
This argument often raises its ugly head here in Alaska.
Most often started by folks who just got here and live in Anchorage.

And it comes down to a blondes versus redheads type argument. Some folks think that the same type of rifle they use for hunting should also be their bear protection firearm.

( A VERY OVER-RATED FEAR, by the way. Based in part upon BS stories told by guys who have shot bears and needed to claim they were being charged to avoid penalties. )

Some folks like Brenneke or other solid slugs for close range protection.
Basically either will do.
It all depends on which action type and firearm type you can fire quickly and accurately at a 1,000 pound target which is closing in at around 30- 40 miles per hour.
And all this happens within 50 yards or less.

The Park Service, FWP troopers, Forest service folks and other assorted folks have all sorts of rifles and shotguns available. I have seen so day-glo orange plastic stocked 375 H&H mags that a couple federal groups had with them out in the sticks. But most go with slug shooting shotguns because they are simple and easy for rapid follow-up shots. Particularly since they have all sorts of different size folks they need to accommodate.

(And they are worried about max range and civil liability,,, ie the lawyers were involved)

By the way, you would be very hard pressed to find a guide who uses a Lever action as a client protection rifle. Let some blowing sand and glacier grit from a river-delta get into a Marlin action and you will see why.

Personally I carry a control round feed (claw extractor) bolt action. The cartridge I carry that day depends on the time of year and whatever else I am doing. I have lived here since Eisenhower was the President and have never been charged unless I did something stupid.

Redlg155
March 14, 2012, 08:31 PM
Waggghhhhhh!!!! Someone from Alaska speaks up!
Unfortunately we don't have the northern lights here in Fl, but I always enjoyed seeing them when I used to live at Delta Junction.

Any information supporting a shotgun will fall into one of these categories and treated as thus...
Anecdotal at best.
Flawed data.
Govt. purchasers/aka bean counters making weapon choices.
Lack of training.
No PH uses a shotgun in Africa.
A rifle is way more versatile.
The 870 is the weapon of the masses that don't know any better or at $200, can't afford any better.

CraigC
March 14, 2012, 10:26 PM
No, any information supporting the shotgun will be scrutinized like anything and everything else. Unfortunately, there is no real, usable data. Actually most of what is posted supports my theory that perception is based on legend alone.

16n69
March 15, 2012, 01:53 PM
"Because factory ammo is terribly expensive and I thought you wanted to shoot enough to be "proficient"?"
>well, when it come to life & death...money is no object, I am not hurting financially and will spend whatever it takes, no problem there!

"I'm left wondering if this is a "real" discussion or just an academic exercise."

That is funny, 'cause your posts are mostly "paper fact", with no "REAL WORLD" experience. I admit, when it comes to AK & bears, I am a "newb"...as my kids would say, lol...but that is why I am here!

I value what the guys facing the bears, year in & out have to say...;)

" March 7, 2012, 03:21 PM #37
KodiakBeer
Member

Join Date: April 10, 2010
Location: Kodiak, AK
Posts: 3,280
Quote:

"I think, and I could be wrong, that a short barreled 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck shot would be the best defensive weapon against bears of any size. You'd have a much better chance of hitting a charging bear in the face blinding him to ward off the attack.
I think you could be right, though 000 buck might be a better choice. If you hit the bear in the face, he's going down. There is very little bone between your shot and his brain.

For some reason, my coach shotgun throws buck high, but with old fashioned Foster slugs it hits under the golden bead. So, I use Foster slugs when I carry it. It also throws modern sabot slugs high, so go figure... Yet, throws birdshot right on the money. Even Dave McCracken was unable to figure that one out, and he's forgotten more about shotguns than any of us will ever know.

I feel pretty confident with a shotgun. I can hit a running rabbit or flying ptarmigan without much effort, so I don't think a bears face is a much greater challenge."
__________________
A Kodiak Bear Mauling: http://www.amazon.com/A-Kodiak-Bear-...910559&sr=1-13

March 7, 2012, 04:04 PM #39
rugerman07
Member

"Not to disagree for the sake of disagreement alone, but I don't believe buckshot is a great bear defense at all when you look at two issues: Penetration and spread.
If you look at tests for both, you see that buckshot is a very limited option even at close ranges."
I will stick with the biggest, fattest piece of lead I can throw at the critters as fast as they can go."

"I disagree. In a close encounter situation with a charging bear, I don't care how good of a shooter you are with a rifle, you're gonna be scared to death. Your chances of dropping him in his tracks is much better with a face shot of 00 or 000 buck shot."

March 7, 2012, 05:31 PM #40
KodiakBeer
Member

"I think a good case can be made for buck or slugs, depending on how you look at it.
If you miss that face shot, you'll sure wish you had a slug. However, you have a better chance of making that face shot with a ten or twelve inch spread of 000 buck.
Six of one, half dozen of another.
I carry slugs, because that's what hits under the bead of my preferred shotgun."

I don't want to start a debate on slugs vs buckshot, but I can at least see the reasoning behind buckshot.

A bears brain is about the thickness of a softball, but it's oblong in shape. In size, it's not much different than a skinned rabbit. A bears face, at least the central area behind the nose and mouth where the bulk of the brain lies, is not bulletproof by any means. A few thin sheets of bone is all that lies between you and the brain. So, if you can reliably hit a running bunny at 15 yards with #6 shot, you can reliably hit a bears nose at the same distance with 000.

So, I guess the question you'd ask yourself is how often you miss that running bunny because he's at an awkward angle when he breaks cover or there's brush between you and it, or you're just caught by surprise. There's no doubt in my mind that if you make the shot at close range with heavy buck (under 20 yards?) that bear is going down right there.

I'll stick with slugs because I think you get extra insurance with a near miss because of the great penetration, but I still think a shotgun with buckshot is a much better choice than a handgun, or the typical hunting rifle topped with a 3x9 for that matter.

"Dear Kodiakbeer,

I found a great study done a while back by Stephen Herrero that had some interesting stats:
Quote:
In 64% (14 of 22; G1 = 1.62, P = 0.203) of incidents involving grizzly bears, the inferred motivation was “startled”. Of these incidents where the bear’s inferred motivation was “startled,” the initial encounter distance was <50 m in 100% (11 of 11; G1 = 14.6, P < 0.001) of the incidents where the initial encounter distance was known.
http://www.macecanada.com/downloads/AB_injuries.pdf

Most attacks are by startle reaction of an unsuspecting bear. In this study, he used 50 meters or less as the measuring stick. 50 meters gives you 3-4 seconds of a headlong charge right at you to respond. That is not much time to comprehend and react as you have stated. Herrero didn't break down the distances less than 50 meters, but of course, many will be that type of distance and less in these startle attacks.

The take home message is to have more than one type of defense and more than one person running around in bear country.
Last edited by Alaska444; March 7, 2012 at 09:45 PM."

response: "Quote:

"Most attacks are by startle reaction of an unsuspecting bear.
I certainly agree. As to less than 50 meters, I also agree. I suspect if you broke those down in increments less than 50 meters, the great majority would be less than 20 meters.

When you break down the other 36% of attacks (at least where brown/grizzlies are the culprit) you'll find the majority of those are stalk or ambush attacks. You're packing out a deer or caribou and the bear stalks in and rushes you. Or, the bear is laid up on a game trail to ambush game and you happen along. Again, from very close range when the final rush begins.

The problem always, is that you have so many anecdotal "attacks" that are ended with a gun before they really begin. I could relate two or three of those told to me for every actual attack survivor I've spoken or emailed with.

I don't know how well this will illustrate the issue, but here's a short video I shot below my house a couple summers ago. This is about 5am and a bear is acting like an idiot in the surf. I decided I'd be an idiot and go down and film him. I was armed, but what I did at first was get in between him and the woods/brush behind me. I cut off his escape route.

So, if you watch closely, he gets nervous a couple times and begins to run at me. Just short lopes to tell me to back off - it's particularly apparent at 1.41 seconds into the vid. What you can't see is that during the entire vid I keep edging to the left to give him an exit route, but then he keeps running my way and cutting himself off.

I'm holding the camera to my eye, and every time he looks my way I drop my face in submission. When the camera pans to the ground or looks left or right, I'm turning my face or bowing my head to tell him I'm not a threat. Each time I do that, he immediately looses interest in me.

A different person having this bear take even a short lope at him might have shot him, and you'd have another case of someone being saved by a gun - at fairly long range, because the bear is at least 40 or 50 yards from me."

Anyway, typical bear behavior: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt86lKjaA7c

"March 7, 2012, 08:15 PM #45
Alaska444
Member

Join Date: October 2, 2010
Posts: 71
Dear Kodiakbeer,

I have great respect for your knowledge and your courage in the way that you handled your own bear mauling and I do look forward to the last free offer of your book that I believe has one more chance to come.

Grizzly bears are a frightful creature and I hope to only see them up close in a zoo. My only encounter with a bear was when I was three years old near Fairbanks when a black bear came and brushed up against our umbrella tent back in 1961. My dad yelled when he saw the bear paw come within a foot of his head. That is when I awoke and can still remember the silhouette of the bear standing on his hind legs with the ever present sun in early morning summer Alaska.

I am aware of many bear encounters documented in books and other sources and to say that you would not likely have a chance to shoot a bear in self defense at 25 yards and then be charged with hunting/poaching is not the case with several encounters documented. I don't wish to test any of these theories in person as you have, but bear attacks come in wide variety of shapes and presentations. Yes, the ambush attacks are pretty much impossible to defend against no matter what your choice of gun/pepper spray since you can't react and deploy that quickly. At 10 yards, you have 1-2 seconds at best.

Several factors come into play. Two of the most important are numbers of people in a group and visibility. Most attacks occur with only 1-2 people and in dense brush. Attacks on 4 or more people are rare, but do occur. The avoidance of these two factors increases the avoidance factor. Playing in dense brush in bear country is asking for an encounter. Unfortunately, there are many places where it can't be avoided, in that case, rule number two on numbers applies.

Once again, I have great respect for your knowledge on these issues, but attacks do come in a variety of circumstances and there are many documented attacks thwarted by shots at 25 yards and sometimes more that are ruled DLP's. Once again, 25 yards for a bear is 2-3 seconds, not much time at all.

My main issue with buckshot is the lack of penetration, the low sectional density and the need to still aim the gun."

RESpoNSE:
"March 7, 2012, 08:57 PM #46
KodiakBeer
Member
Join Date: April 10, 2010
Location: Kodiak, AK
Posts: 3,280
I just can say that over the last ten years I've personally talked with a variety of people who have had the experience, and read far more accounts than I can recall. When it comes to grizzly/browns, the attacks almost always unfold as I describe - from extreme close range. Some of those accounts are related in the book.

I'm not talking about legality or being charged if you shoot a bear doing his threat display at 30 yards, because for the most part the state will give you the benefit of a doubt. Yet, few (if any) of those are actual attacks or would have turned into attacks... in my opinion. It's only my opinion, based on my experiences. I take no offense with you or anyone else who disagrees."
__________________
A Kodiak Bear Mauling: http://www.amazon.com/A-Kodiak-Bear-...910559&sr=1-13
__________________

saturno_v
March 15, 2012, 05:27 PM
Craig


You are fundamentally correct in pointing how a large caliber rifle can obtain more penetration (is not rocket science, energy, SD and bullet construction) however any report about effectiveness of a given firearm compared to another in a bear (or any wildlife) defence situation is anecdotical, hard to prove, fruit of a legend, etc...including your experience...

Now, I never killed a bear however I did talk with many people that did and had the scars to prove it....it seems anyone has a pet ideal firearm/cartridge because that is what they used.......I had a fisherman swearing how effective a 35 Remington lever rifle is...he did put down a coastal brownie during a charge...with authority with 2 shots out of his Marlin lever action....

At some point I did want to add to my collection a bear defense rifle and during a discussion with a person that did work in the oil industry up there for over 20 years doing field security he told me "forget about a marlin 45/70, get a Remington pump in 30-06, more versatile and effective with the right loads".....and no, he did not try to sell me his rifle......this is what he used and did work for him very well in several hairy situations........Do not worry, I still plan to buy a Marlin 1895 in 45-70 to keep company to my Remington 7600 :D

Going back to the Brenneke Black Magic.....the advantage of this particular slug go beyond his mediocre SD.....the sholuder is particularly sharp and it is a .73 cal projectile....we are not talking about the difference between a .30 cal and a .35 or .38 cal.......we are talking almost double the diameter of a 375.....

In a defense situation we are talking extremely short distances.....and the only way to stop a real charge is to connect your bullet with the CNS (brain or spine) of the animal....everything else is just conversation.......this is the reason why when you say that your uncle's bear was soaking up 416 cal pills like candies that does not impress me much...I heard stories like that all the time.....Lions taking 458 bullets without any reaction, etc....a 458 to the guts is less effective in a charge than a 30-30 to the brain.....

A person that i respect a lot with a ton of knowledge told me how amazed he was when he saw a big bear still running uphill with his lungs and heart shot out.....

I personally saw the penetration of a Black Magic, a fun test we carried on layers upon layers of butcher shop large bones and wood panels.....if you think that slug is not very effective on a brownine (again connecting with the animal CNS) I have a bridge in New York to sell....


Granted, you are right that part of the appeal is how inexpensive and easy to obtain is a pump shottie.....but, again, that slug is one hell of a MF at close and personal range.....


There are people with ton of experience that literally laugh at the idea that a 375 H&H is the minimum acceptable for bears or lions (as some high tech hunting guides suggest in their web sites)

There is a recurrent phrase that I heard up there which states that the caliber necessary to put down a bear seems to increase as you get closer to Anchorage.....:D

The first reaction to poor markmanship is to think you need a bigger rifle.....

P.S.

You are right about the difference between a pump and a lever....many think the pump is even faster but I personally do not see much of that in trained hands....

saturno_v
March 15, 2012, 06:53 PM
Craig

Some food for thoughts....this article contains with some pics (it is a long web page, the story is almost at the end), a 70 yards complete pass through into a buffalo with the 3" Brenneke Black Magic....if that does not look to you like good penetration I don't know what.....

http://www.slugshooting.com/id6.html

Look how big was the animal......

CraigC
March 15, 2012, 10:58 PM
I value what the guys facing the bears, year in & out have to say...
I place more value on those who have actually killed critters have to say. Living in Alaska does not make one an expert. Although there's a guy on RugerForum who believes he is because his son killed one small bear with a 20ga slug. Which is statistically meaningless. You don't have to quote KodiakBeer, we've been around the block a time or two.

PS, I never said slugs wouldn't work. The question was which was better, a 12ga slug or a big bore rifle and the answer is that the big bore rifle wins every time.


Some food for thoughts....this article contains with some pics (it is a long web page, the story is almost at the end), a 70 yards complete pass through into a buffalo with the 3" Brenneke Black Magic....if that does not look to you like good penetration I don't know what.....
From the article:
"They indeed found two slugs and said that they were buried side by side just under the hide on the far side."

You actually do a very good job of illustrating my point. TWO of the three shots fired did NOT fully penetrate. Note, this is not a full frontal shot but a double lung shot with no heavy bone encountered. Illustrating perfectly that these slugs are not very good penetrators. The heavy big bore rifle loads I would recommend for bear would be guaranteed to exit on a lung-shot buffalo. Whether shoulders are encountered or not. These loads are proven on larger and tougher game than grizzlies and will penetrate 5-6ft of tough critter like Cape buffalo. Even heavy sixgun loads will penetrate better than your beloved Black Magic.

16n69
March 15, 2012, 11:03 PM
"Going back to the Brenneke Black Magic.....the advantage of this particular slug go beyond his mediocre SD.....the sholuder is particularly sharp and it is a .73 cal projectile....we are not talking about the difference between a .30 cal and a .35 or .38 cal.......we are talking almost double the diameter of a 375.....
In a defense situation we are talking extremely short distances.....and the only way to stop a real charge is to connect your bullet with the CNS (brain or spine) of the animal....everything else is just conversation...
A person that i respect a lot with a ton of knowledge told me how amazed he was when he saw a big bear still running uphill with his lungs and heart shot out.....
I personally saw the penetration of a Black Magic, a fun test we carried on layers upon layers of butcher shop large bones and wood panels.....if you think that slug is not very effective on a brownine (again connecting with the animal CNS) I have a bridge in New York to sell....
Thank you...brenneke may be a "salesman"...have an "agenda"...or rather, just a business, I realize this, however, they extensively TEST as do others, like Dixie & Ddulplek...and the fact for penetration, controlled expansion ( or just devastating tissue damage due to the design of slug and the act that it goes in, as you describe twice that of a .375 )...the FACTS as they can & will present...speak for themselves."

"I place more value on those who have actually killed critters have to say. Living in Alaska does not make one an expert."
>>>Just what did you think I meant when I said "those who face bears year in & out"...meeting them for coffee & a danish?

BTW...thought I would stop by the gun shop here in town, that is listed by Rock River Arms as their .458 SOCOM dealer here...and while they said they could "order" but they were bak-ordered 90 days or more...the had the Benelli M4 H2O that had just come in 2 days prior...and the salesman that sold me my M2...handed it to me...I was shocked, as even Benelli said they are back-ordered like everywhere 3-6 months and possibly at the end of this years "run"?
Turns out the owner of the shop ordered it 6 months ago at the show...price was right, I snapped it up.

Bottom line here, what I believe everyone can agree on, based on the experience of those charged, attacked, mauled, survived...
...is that [against BIG ANGRY charging BEARS, B]many, many types of calibers/bullets/slugs/SG/rifle/HG ALL may work at the EXTREMELY CLOSE range[/B] these REAL attacks take place, the "distance" that separates a REAL attack from long distance DLP or a 1st strike so to speak "preventive-Killing", hunting/poaching etc..
What has been impressed on me, self confessed "Bear-defense-newbie" ( but not new to firearms, mostly combat HG's)...is that;
1. Quick deployment of whatever weapon is CRUCIAL.
2. Shot placement RULES.
3. Reasonably powerful, well constructed flat/broad nosed large caliber projectiles of good sectional density that can penetrate thick skin/fur, fat, muscle crushing thru large bone and keep going deep and long while holing together & creating massive tissue damage/wound channel, which may "miss" brain & spinal cord, STILL slow down the animal for "MORE TIME" to make that effectively aimed "kill shot".
4. Don't hunt/fish/hike/camp alone in Grizzly/Brownie country...have others along with you armed with various firearms and bear spray.(or run very slow & not showered for days...just kidding)
5.Go out & move about in groups at least 2, preferably 3 or 4.
6.Make noise.
7.Avoid A.M.A.P., areas where bears hang out, ( often not possible... realized).

tundraotto
March 15, 2012, 11:22 PM
Just get your M4 and be happy. Why are you drawing this out? You want to love the slugs out of an M4 - GREAT - just get it already.

16n69
March 15, 2012, 11:41 PM
Yep!

16n69
March 15, 2012, 11:46 PM
Just get your M4 and be happy. Why are you drawing this out? You want to love the slugs out of an M4 - GREAT - just get it already.
Got it today...had given up on it and was out looking for a .458 SOCOM...there it was all of a sudden, in a shop I frequent often.

16n69
March 15, 2012, 11:53 PM
I place more value on those who have actually killed critters have to say. Living in Alaska does not make one an expert. Although there's a guy on RugerForum who believes he is because his son killed one small bear with a 20ga slug. Which is statistically meaningless. You don't have to quote KodiakBeer, we've been around the block a time or two.

PS, I never said slugs wouldn't work. The question was which was better, a 12ga slug or a big bore rifle and the answer is that the big bore rifle wins every time.



From the article:
"They indeed found two slugs and said that they were buried side by side just under the hide on the far side."

You actually do a very good job of illustrating my point. TWO of the three shots fired did NOT fully penetrate. Note, this is not a full frontal shot but a double lung shot with no heavy bone encountered. Illustrating perfectly that these slugs are not very good penetrators. The heavy big bore rifle loads I would recommend for bear would be guaranteed to exit on a lung-shot buffalo. Whether shoulders are encountered or not. These loads are proven on larger and tougher game than grizzlies and will penetrate 5-6ft of tough critter like Cape buffalo. Even heavy sixgun loads will penetrate better than your beloved Black Magic.
Save it ...??? You just don't get it?
Haven't you been listening to those there...
Real charge...REAL close...little chance...no matter WHAT projectile or gun, BEAR wins.
AVOID & live.
Carry ANYTHING that steps out fast and plows deep...anything, does not matter at pt. blank range.

[I]BTW...bought the M4 H2O today...ordered the Marlin 1895SBL 45-70 last week, should be in this week too.
I will take either w/confidence and see which I shoot better over time?
End of story...thanks to all !:)

saturno_v
March 16, 2012, 05:29 AM
You actually do a very good job of illustrating my point. TWO of the three shots fired did NOT fully penetrate. Note, this is not a full frontal shot but a double lung shot with no heavy bone encountered. Illustrating perfectly that these slugs are not very good penetrators. The heavy big bore rifle loads I would recommend for bear would be guaranteed to exit on a lung-shot buffalo. Whether shoulders are encountered or not. These loads are proven on larger and tougher game than grizzlies and will penetrate 5-6ft of tough critter like Cape buffalo. Even heavy sixgun loads will penetrate better than your beloved Black Magic.


Craig

Frankly I don't know how can you say that I proved your point....first of all according to the story the first two shots were fired at about 90 yards.......the Black Magic loses velocity and energy very very rapidly due to the horrendous aerodynamics...at 100 yards it retains less than 1/3 of the original energy.....

Second, these shots were found at the far side.....if these shots were in trajectory with the vitals or the CNS they definitely qualify as plenty penetration in my book.

If in a charge situation a bear is not stopped by one of these slugs it has nothing to do with their penetration capabilities and everything to do with countless other potential factors.

At charge distance, a Black Magic slug would probably literally split the skull of a brownie in half.....it did with a very big cow.....

Finally, if you think you are better armed with a 44 Mag than a shottie loaded with these slugs, more power to you....I take my Mossberg 500 over my S&W 29 for such task.....

buckhorn_cortez
March 16, 2012, 08:20 AM
I've owned and shot a Marlin 45-70 for over 30 years. It's a good round that can be used for a number of game applications at ranges of 100 yards and under. The problem with the 45-70 is the recoil generated in a relatively light weight (9lb) rifle. Rapid follow up shots with a 45-70 are difficult for an average size person.

When I could still shoot the gun regularly (I can't now because of medical reasons) I used to practice rapid fire with a full magazine. I can tell you that getting the gun back on target cannot be done rapidly because of the muzzle rise on the rifle. Jacking a full magazine load through the gun will leave you with a bruised shoulder, a headache, and a smile on your face from the recoil.

Conversely, I regularly shoot full magazine loads from my FN SLP - even with 3-inch shells and slugs with no problem - because of the gun's recoil management. Follow up shots with the FN are far easier than with the 45-70 as the gas operated action plus SureCycle recoil system I had installed in the SLP reduce the felt recoil to a level where the gun can be easily kept on target for rapid follow up shots.

To me, that would be a real consideration in this application. I am not advocating one approach over the other as I have never shot or tested the Brenneke round.

I know the massive damage the 45-70 can generate, and if the projected encounter with a bear is over about 30 yards, that would be my choice. Under 30 yards becomes problematic as bears are fast for short distances and multiple shots are going to be needed. In that scenario, I personally would rather rely on a well tested semi-auto shotgun as rapid fire of mulitple rounds will be far easier.

That being said, I would want to test the 12-gage with the Brenneke slugs under a number of conditions before making the choice to use a shotgun rather than a large bore rifle.

CraigC
March 16, 2012, 09:38 AM
You just don't get it?
Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread? Please, big bores have been my passion for most of my life. Grow up and go shoot something.


Frankly I don't know how can you say that I proved your point....
Well, if you think that not getting full penetration on a broadside lung-shot buffalo, without encountering any heavy bone is "enough penetration", go forth and be merry.


Seriously, who is comfortable with "good enough" when your life is on the line???

buckhorn_cortez
March 16, 2012, 10:44 AM
You just don't get it?

Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread? Please, big bores have been my passion for most of my life. Grow up and go shoot something.



Quote:
Frankly I don't know how can you say that I proved your point....

Well, if you think that not getting full penetration on a broadside lung-shot buffalo, without encountering any heavy bone is "enough penetration", go forth and be merry.


Seriously, who is comfortable with "good enough" when your life is on the line???

This has nothing to do with penetration on cape buffalo. I always enjoy the He-Man shooting threads with so much speculatium that there's a market shortage. You know, why not just defer to a .416 Rigby for every shooting situation? In fact, lets go beyond that. Why not always take a .50 BMG? I mean if proven stopping power is the single criteria - well, there you go...

I would NOT want to bet my life on a single shot with a short distance bear charge - don't care what your past experience is or the round. I would always bet that at least one follow up shot will be needed - but, that's just me.

There's also the problem of portability and handling. While large bore rifles provide the maximum stopping power, the problem then becomes carrying it and firing repetative shots - making using something like the .50 BMG problematic for all but a select few. Having carried a .338 Winchester Magnum for days on a couple of different hunts, schlepping a heavy rifle around in the field is a PITA. IF a lighter weight weapon is usable - that would be my choice

So far, we have a lot of speculation with little, if any, real information past unrelated experiences and theory-based conclusions.

Bears are not cape buffalos, elephants or rhinos - they're totally different and the round that is applicable for African big game may not be needed or even desirable in a completely different situation.

For me, I'd be looking at three things that need to be balanced to make the best choice for use with bears: stopping power, gun portability (size and weight), and rapid follow up shots.

I've found this interesting enough that I've just ordered a case of the Brenneke 3-inch Black Magic slugs. Hopefully, over the next month or so, I'll be able to confect enough test scenarios for the round that, at least for myself, will be able to make some type of performance-based conclusions as to the potential effectiveness of the round at short ranges (30 yards and under) on potentially hard to stop game animals.

CraigC
March 16, 2012, 12:00 PM
I always enjoy the He-Man shooting threads...
Looks to me like this is a serious discussion with very little or no macho-man rhetoric. That is, at least it was until your silly .50BMG reference.


You know, why not just defer to a .416 Rigby for every shooting situation?
Silliness like this adds nothing to the thread but conflict.


This has nothing to do with penetration on cape buffalo.
There's also the problem of portability and handling. While large bore rifles provide the maximum stopping power, the problem then becomes carrying it and firing repetative shots...
See, if you had actually read what you quoted, you would know that the "buffalo" statement was in reference to an article on hunting American bison with Black Magic slugs, not Cape buffalo. You would also know that the rifle in question, which is in the THREAD TITLE, is lighter and handier than your average 12ga shotgun. I guess some folks can't be bothered with reading the whole thread before throwing in their two cents.

chad1043
March 16, 2012, 12:50 PM
How much did you end up paying for the M4? I have seen numbers around 1700...

saturno_v
March 16, 2012, 03:09 PM
Craig


Next time you need to butcher a cow or a large pig, shoot it from 20-30 yards with a Brenneke BB and see for yourself what happens....shoulder bone or head......


In the story there was no mention at all if some bone was encountered by these shots....

16n69
March 16, 2012, 04:21 PM
[QUOTE=CraigC;8036188]Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread? Please, big bores have been my passion for most of my life. Grow up and go shoot something.

>"Grow up and go shoot something. "

I left combat shooting 30 yrs. ago, bought a Weatherby bolt action in .300 and began deer & elk hunting here in NV. I have "shot" plenty...just new to big bears / dangerous game.
YOU, however, seem to provide most of your opinions from ballistic charts & a Big Game hunting book...you live in TN., where probably the most dangerous game you have is a Country Music fan that has been banned from the Grand Ole Opry...?

>"How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread?

...uhhh, and quite a bit of "effort" which is why I knew to ask about a lever in 45-70 ( your beloved heavy bullet with hi-sectional density...with Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, Cor-Bon & Double Tap...loads in mind...) VS. SG with Brenneke, Dixie, Dduplek hi-tech mad penetrating slugs.
ALSO...read many accounts, like those from Kodiakbeer & others, of how the REAL Brown Bear attack goes down...in dense wet woods...not hunting the "Big Five" on the African Plain with plenty of yardage to shoot!

"Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread?"
So YES, some effort there !;)

16n69
March 16, 2012, 04:35 PM
How much did you end up paying for the M4? I have seen numbers around 1700...
$1700. for NEW H2O...not likely? NOT just any "M4"...read up on it, self lubricating loves to run dry, can leave it in the stream overnight and still fire it.
For a black or camo...maybe, I have seen H2O's go for $2700-3300. lately !!! (Sick).
List is $2399. and I would have been glad to pay that since that orders are 180 days B.O.
...and this years "limited allotment" is nearing or at the end...
but as it was I paid $2079. @ Discount FireArms here in Vegas...brand new in the box. came in on Tuesday got it yesterday!
Owner ordered it 6 months ago at the gun show.


http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli-m4.php

CraigC
March 16, 2012, 05:30 PM
Next time you need to butcher a cow or a large pig, shoot it from 20-30 yards with a Brenneke BB and see for yourself what happens....shoulder bone or head......

Unfortunately, butchers require them to walk into the shop or they do not process the meat. Now, I don't mind skinning a few deer through the course of a season but our last bull went 2100lbs. Don't think I'm up for that job. ;)


...you live in TN., where probably the most dangerous game you have is a Country Music fan that has been banned from the Grand Ole Opry...?
Statements like this are sooooo silly they are hardly even worth replying to. Especially twice in the same thread. I'm sorry but living in Tennessee doesn't preclude one from know, well, virtually anything as much as simply living in Alaska doesn't make one an expert in killing bears. Killing bears makes one an expert on killing bears.


...hunting here in NV...
And so this qualifies YOU to discredit me, how exactly???


YOU, however, seem to provide most of your opinions from ballistic charts & a Big Game hunting book...
I base my opinion on the experience of others. Which to me is a damn sight better than your internet legends, goofy perception and wishful thinking. I freely invite anybody to prove me wrong. However, as usual, you guys who think shotgun slugs strike like the hammer of Thor never seem to provide proof of anything at all. The "proof" you do provide, such as the lung shot buffalo, actually proves MY point.


ALSO...read many accounts, like those from Kodiakbeer & others
What accounts? KodiakBeer got mauled, that hardly makes him an expert on what it takes to kill bears. Do you really think that his choice is superior strictly because 'he' thinks it is? Is this what constitutes evidence to you guys?


...not hunting the "Big Five" on the African Plain with plenty of yardage to shoot!

Careful, your ignorance is shining here.


The bottom line is that this thread is nothing more than mental masturbation. Your mind was made up before you ever posted it and it's obvious that you won't be swayed by the facts. I'm not here to tell you what you want to hear and so here we are. Let us know how many bears you kill with that thing. :rolleyes:


You have received some good advice in this thread though, even if you choose to ignore it. Why you chose to single me out I have no idea:
"I've seen first hand how devestating the Garretts are in 45-70 on Whitetail and hogs. These things just dont stop going, penetration is superb. A few years ago I shot a 200 lbs buck quartering towards me with the 540g and it broke the nearside shoulder , through the gut, shattered the pelvic bone, exited and went through a small poplar tree. Not discounting a huge 12 ga. slug, but I doubt the slug will penetrate half as much."

"45-70 for sure."

"Slugs have proven to be poor performers....Of those 2 the 45-70 is the better choice"

"1895gbl or similar in 45-70 is pretty hard to beat...lots more firepower in a much smaller package."

"So, I know the 12ga will "work". Even with "foster" style slugs... But, given the situation, I'd prefer the .45/70 or .375..... As they penetrate better and KICK LESS......allowing faster follow-up shots..."

" rifle is the only wilderness tool that can do it all tho - hunt AND defense and I would find a 30-06 to a .375 about perfect for such chores, in the real world."

"The 45-70 has killed the big 5 in Africa. Penetration with modern hard cast loads is 5-6 feet. In its lower powered original forum it eradicated the American buffalo.

I'm sure the 12 gauge has merits but it really does not compare to the 45-70 for killing large dangerous game."

16n69
March 16, 2012, 05:57 PM
Really? How much effort had you put into this subject before you started this thread? Please, big bores have been my passion for most of my life. Grow up and go shoot something.



Well, if you think that not getting full penetration on a broadside lung-shot buffalo, without encountering any heavy bone is "enough penetration", go forth and be merry.


Seriously, who is comfortable with "good enough" when your life is on the line???
Ahh ...Craig, anothe REAL life experience with the wonderful SG & Brennek...

"Re: Shotgun slugs vs bears - 01/29/10 07:01 AM
Quote:
I would like to know how many of you shotgunners have stopped a charging bear with a shotgun!

I have. It was a DLP kill.

I've done three DLPs in the last 8 years. Two were done with a shotgun loaded with Brennekes and one was done with a .375.
The Brennekes passed through like a hardcast bullet and the bears just flopped out on the ground and died.

The other two guys in the department probably have a couple kills apiece all with Brennekes.

I have had to go crawling around in the alder bushes several times for bears, and never once have I ever doubted my abilities or the gun.
Posted by: xxclaro

"As a point of fact, one of the most famous BROWN BEAR guides over on the Kamchatka Peninsula uses a bone stock model 12 Winchester 12 bore with plain old Foster slugs and has killed more bears than any of us will ever see."
Posted by: ColdCase1984


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/printthread/Board/34/main/286668/type/thread

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/printthread/Board/34/main/286668/type/thread

Re: Shotgun slugs vs bears - 01/29/10 05:53 PM
Thanks for the reply Steve, it's always good to get some reassurance from someone who been there/done that.
I still plan to do the testing, just for curiosity sake and to see what the differences will be.

Some nice photos of bears decimated by Brenneke slugs...seem to kill as good as ANY hardcast bullet....dead is DEAD!

Re: Shotgun slugs vs bears - 02/01/10 02:04 PM

"The only slug that I'd use and/or recomened for big Bears is the wide heat treated hard cast slugs by Dixe Slug in Old Town Florida http://www.dixieslugs.com/index.html

At the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson, Ms. a few years back and I got to witness the Terminator slug in action and it is impressive.

My 416 Rigby with a Federal factory load ammo with te 400 grain Nosler Partition was shot into the same media and pentrated 30" and left about a 1" diameter wound, the Terminator slug which is 730 grains and .730 diametor made ofr rifled slug barrels) pentrated 29" and blew a wound channel nearly 4" in diameter

I would use a Terminator slug with total confidence and I can't say that about other slugs"

"Re: Shotgun slugs vs bears - 06/02/10 01:07 AM
Originally Posted By: jwp475


"Don't confuse oridnary slugs with the very heavy hard cast slugs from Dixie Slugs, there is no comparison.

Dixie's biggest customer is the US Coast Guard, because the Dixie is the only slug that will penetrate the bulk head doors on the ships they sometimes have to board

The penetration and the wound channel is vastly larger, longer than conventional slugs which re designed primarily for use on White Tail Deer."


JWP475:

"You are right about Dixie Slugs.

Many people can't seem to grasp the raw power and penetration of a Two Ounce .73 caliber hard cast heat treated bullet when fired at 1200 fps from a firearm designed for rapid target engagement at defensive ranges. Maybe it is the label "shotgun" that prevents the association with short range power and penetration more than equal to .416 Rigby (400 grain Partition) at short range.

If these same .73 caliber bullets were loaded in a brass case..."

Ralph McLaney

07-11-2010, 03:21 #27
Snowman92D
Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 2,547
"Check out Brenneke's at www.brennekeusa.com and I think you'll have an answer to your questions that is extremely well documented in the field. Especially taking various factors like commercial availability, price, accuracy and terminal performance into consideration.

The Brenneke 3-inch-magnum "Black Magic" is superbly accurate in any 12-gauge I've tried it from, if you have the ability to take the recoil. I've gotten sub-four-inch groups at 100 yards repeatedly with that load.

A better way to go, in my opinion, is the 2 and 3/4-inch Brenneke "Green Lightning" and "Special Forces Short Magnum". If anything, they're both a shade more accurate than the 3-inch Black Magic and both have tremendous power and penetration.

The Brenneke folks tell me that, other than the "Special Force Short Magnum" having a bright red coating...and the "Green Lightning" having an emerald green coating...they're exactly the same projectile, powder charge and alloy hardness. The Special Forces version is marketed to LE for hard target jobs, like at vehicle checkpoints, and the Green Lightning version is marketed to hunters who need really deep penetration.

If you wanna rip up hard targets, either will make you smile, plus the 2 and 3/4-inch will cycle through 3-inch shotgun chambers without a bobble while 3-inch shells sometimes bind up. My experience but YMMV.

I know a guy in the Alaska wildlife biology dept who has used Brenneke's 12-gauge 2 and 3/4-inch original "Classic Magnum" (which is what Alaska troopers currently use) and more recently the slightly heavier Green Lightning slug on more large "problem" bears and moose than anyone I know. Both do adequately with usually a couple good hits needed...but he gives the edge to the Green Lightning saying he's frequently gotten through-and-through broadside penetration on large animals. He does his shooting at short range, like 30 yards or so, but it has to work for him in his job, and he recommended the Brenneke's to me."
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1239270&page=2

Redlg155
March 16, 2012, 06:04 PM
I was walking through the woods the other day and saw Grizzbuffelephrhino. At my feet lay a shotgun loaded with Brennekes and a 45-70 loaded with hard cast bullets. I started to panic and didn't know what do. So he ate me. THE END.

chad1043
March 16, 2012, 06:05 PM
Wow. That is a little steep for a 12 gauge.

saturno_v
March 16, 2012, 06:10 PM
Craig


Nobody (well at least myself) is debating here that a rifle is a better tool especially for its versatility (range, accuracy, etc...).

But in a bear protection scenario a shottie with Brenneke BB ior other similarly constructed slugs s perfectly adequate...this is the point you refuse to accept....it does work very well indeed........yes a 458 Lott, WM, 375 H&H, etc, is a better weapon, but this is is beside the point....

16n69
March 16, 2012, 09:56 PM
Craig


Nobody (well at least myself) is debating here that a rifle is a better tool especially for its versatility (range, accuracy, etc...).

But in a bear protection scenario a shottie with Brenneke BB ior other similarly constructed slugs s perfectly adequate...this is the point you refuse to accept....it does work very well indeed........yes a 458 Lott, WM, 375 H&H, etc, is a better weapon, but this is is beside the point....
That about sums is up for me...
I just bought both the Benelli M4 and the Marlin 1895SBL...
...and a couple a thousand rounds of Brenneke & Garretts will tell me which I can deploy faster, put on target faster and shoot more accurately.
That is the gun I will take to the field in AK & MT.

CraigC
March 17, 2012, 12:53 AM
Nobody (well at least myself) is debating here that a rifle is a better tool especially for its versatility (range, accuracy, etc...).
I've contended all along that merely the rifle was better, not that the slug would bounce off. I just don't think they are as effective as others do. Since our pal brought up the Linebaugh seminars, I would point out that the proper big bore rifle and sixgun cartridges penetrated SIGNIFICANTLY deeper than even the massive Terminator slugs. Which is what I've been trying to point out all along. 30" is unimpressive, given the level of recoil and as I said before, is comparable to other bullets of similar sectional density at similar velocities. The 430gr .475 at a mere 1300fps penetrated DOUBLE that. But nobody wants to listen to me because I'm in Tennessee. :rolleyes:

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5


........yes a 458 Lott, WM, 375 H&H, etc, is a better weapon, but this is is beside the point....
No, read the OP again, that is THE WHOLE POINT!!!

saturno_v
March 17, 2012, 01:04 AM
Craig

Can you post some data about the Brenneke BM penetration test if someone ever conducted them?? It would be interesting to read about it.

16n69
March 17, 2012, 01:27 AM
I've contended all along that merely the rifle was better, not that the slug would bounce off. I just don't think they are as effective as others do. Since our pal brought up the Linebaugh seminars, I would point out that the proper big bore rifle and sixgun cartridges penetrated SIGNIFICANTLY deeper than even the massive Terminator slugs. Which is what I've been trying to point out all along. 30" is unimpressive, given the level of recoil and as I said before, is comparable to other bullets of similar sectional density at similar velocities. The 430gr .475 at a mere 1300fps penetrated DOUBLE that. But nobody wants to listen to me because I'm in Tennessee. :rolleyes:

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Linebaugh.Penetration.Tests.asp?Order=5



No, read the OP again, that is THE WHOLE POINT!!!
No actually, as the OP, I was trying to discern if most felt that ONE of these two were completely inadequate...
I think saturno_v's point is correct, BOTH will work just fine CONSIDERING...considering the distance in a REAL bear attack...the Brenneke will penetrate 5 ft. from one end of the bear front to back with massive tissue damage...DUE to the "design & shape" of that Black Magic slug. You keep quoting "sectional density" ...well apparently there is much more than just SD #'s going on at pt. blank range.
Shot placement RULES no matter what projectile / caliber...the penetration for both is overkill at close range...the damage to the right spot to either break the bear's charge mechanically or physiologically shut him down is what I will focus on more than caliber & SD, period...if I am lucky (or quick) enough to get a shot or two off.
We have "listened" to you...but you are not listening to those who have been charged, attacked , mauled or just deal often with these critters...they believe the SG w/slug is as good and sometimes better than rifles.
Good enough for me.
I'm done.
Argue on...???

Gordon
March 17, 2012, 01:28 AM
That is one kewl looking SG, I've never seen one before. No doubt them 3" Black Magic slugs will feed well in it after it is broken in and go right thru a big bear up close IMHO. BUT I would see about a bigger charging handle, I have been in a few SG classes where Marines used their issued ones and , well I guess they were early ones. I would carry chamber loaded and safety on if the terrain and plausible threat justified it, but for day in day out packing around when doing stuff I would carry it cruiser ready and fan one up the spout when condition red happened. But that is just safe old me .

saturno_v
March 17, 2012, 01:43 AM
16n69

I would like only to make a point about the original question siding in part with Craig....if I had to buy a weapon specifically for the task we are talking about (so assuming I do not own already an appropriate weapon) I would go for the Marlin....simply I'm a rifle guy, you get the option of a 200 yards hunting shot if you need to and I already own a shottie....

If you already own a shotgun (pump or a reliable auto) buying a rifle for this purpose (again, short distance defense) is totally unnecessary.....but, you know, you always need a new gun in your collection.....

P.S.

If I remember correctly, I believe that one of the advantage of the Brenneke BM other than the large caliber and the sharp shoulder is the fact (again, this is what I heard) that the alloy this slug is made of is much harder even of the usual hardcast rifle bullets.

16n69
March 17, 2012, 03:34 AM
Sure I got all that...so I bought both, wanted a cowboy gun anyhow...and might as well get a cool modern one in a bear busting round (45-70) instead of 30-30...if I need that...but also love the Benelli SG's.

I bought the inertia driven very fast & reliable M2 tactical 1st and then saw & read up on the US MARINE approved M4's even MORE reliable with the self cleaning gas system Benelli developed for the military...then the H20 came out, best of the M4's and with that self-lubricating weather proof NP3 coating inside & out...
... AND, for the 1st time. a 7+1 shell capacity right-out-of-the-box...no extra tube purchase & install needed...had to have it ;)

Great 3 position adjustable/collapsable stock...especially when you have heavy coat on and need that stock a bit shorter.
And talk about versatility ...in other ways a SG is more versatile than a rifle...like home defense with shot instead of a bullet that will go thru the bad guy the walls and 3 neighbors.

The Marlin 1896SBL 45-70 vs. Benelli M4 H2O...the one I shoot faster & better is the one I will grab for Grizzly and with Garretts or Brenneke's, I WILL be loaded for Bear!

CraigC
March 17, 2012, 03:30 PM
Did you read the penetration test results at all??? Do you understand that real rifles penetrated more than double what even the Dixie Terminator penetrated? Do you understand that the Dixie is 130-260gr heavier than the Black Magic? Do you not understand how sectional density affects penetration? Do you just have no understanding of how all this works??? Or are you just going to be like eveybody else and cling to the myth?


No actually, as the OP, I was trying to discern if most felt that ONE of these
two were completely inadequate...
Yet that is not what you asked.
What would be a better primary defense weapon while in large bear country......Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70 w/ Garrett 540-gr SuperHardCast Hammerhead vs. Benelli M4 H2O w/ Brenneke Black Magic 3" slugs.


Can you post some data about the Brenneke BM penetration test if someone ever conducted them?? It would be interesting to read about it.
I don't know if I ever found that data or not. You'll have to search for previous bear defense threads. I'm simply not going to the trouble again.


Shot placement RULES no matter what projectile / caliber...the penetration for both is overkill at close range...
Shot placement is a given. One of my most important points is that there is no such thing as too much penetration when it comes to dangerous game. Although I disagree on the level, the heavy rifle may or may not penetrate enough to exit. While the Black Magic is what I would call barely adequate. If you think by some "black magic" that slug with an SD of .161 is going to penetrate as deeply as a big bore rifle bullet with an SD of .270-.300, you're smokin' the good stuff.


...but you are not listening to those who have been charged, attacked , mauled or just deal often with these critters...they believe the SG w/slug is as good and sometimes better than rifles.
Again, one more time, who are these people you are referring to???


...they believe the SG w/slug is as good and sometimes better than rifles.

Now I've heard it all. Care to show any proof to this statement???

16n69
March 17, 2012, 03:35 PM
Did you read the penetration test results at all??? Do you understand that real rifles penetrated more than double what even the Dixie Terminator penetrated? Do you understand that the Dixie is 130-260gr heavier than the Black Magic? Do you not understand how sectional density affects penetration? Do you just have no understanding of how all this works??? Or are you just going to be like eveybody else and cling to the myth?



Yet that is not what you asked.




I don't know if I ever found that data or not. You'll have to search for previous bear defense threads. I'm simply not going to the trouble again.



Shot placement is a given. One of my most important points is that there is no such thing as too much penetration when it comes to dangerous game. Although I disagree on the level, the heavy rifle may or may not penetrate enough to exit. While the Black Magic is what I would call barely adequate. If you think by some "black magic" that slug with an SD of .161 is going to penetrate as deeply as a big bore rifle bullet with an SD of .270-.300, you're smokin' the good stuff.



Again, one more time, who are these people you are referring to???



Now I've heard it all. Care to show any proof to this statement???


Once & for all...there is more to penetration and massive shock & tissue damage than sectional density...it is not the "Holy Grail" of sudden death for bears.

I respect those who have been attacked and who have lived...and Brenneke's as well as other slugs get the job done.
How many bear charges have you stopped with your super SD boolits & death ray rifles over there in Nashville...?

CraigC
March 17, 2012, 03:51 PM
Once & for all...there is more to penetration and massive shock & tissue damage than sectional density...it is not the "Holy Grail" of sudden death for bears.
Maybe in fantasyland. So I guess the answer is that you DO NOT understand how all of this works. Let me make this simple, bullets of similar sectional density, similar construction and fired at a similar velocity will all demonstrate the same propensity to penetrate. The only difference is that bigger bullets will make bigger holes. Bigger bullets will be more likely to break bones rather than poke a hole in them. The three important factors in determining a non-expanding bullet's effectiveness on game are diameter and sectional density. Velocity is the distant third. For any load in which the first two are adequate, velocity can be anywhere from 1200-2000fps. A bullet of sufficent diameter (like a slug) but with insufficient sectional density will make a big, shallow hole. A bullet of insufficient diameter (think 7.62 ball) and high sectional density will penetrate deeply but make a small hole with little tissue disruption. A bullet of large diameter (anything from .40 on up) coupled with a high sectional density will not only make a large hole but destroy a lot of tissue on its very deep path through the animal's body. Preferably resulting in an exit wound.


I respect those who have been attacked and who have lived...and Brenneke's as well as other slugs get the job done.
Again, who are these people and where are they? Where may I read their stories? I would like the opportunity to respect them too.


How many bear charges have you stopped with your super SD boolits & death ray rifles over there in Nashville...?
How many elephant charges do you think Gary Reeder has stopped in Flagstaff, AZ??? Probably not too many but he does go to Africa every year. How many Cape buffalo charges do you think Ross Seyfried has stopped in the US? Probably not too many but he has taken them with a revolver. How many of the African Big Six do you think Mark Hampton has taken in the US? My guess would be ZERO but he has done it multiple times in Africa.....with a handgun. Theodore Roosevelt grew up in the Northeast, how many large, exotic and dangerous critters do you think he has experience with? What about WDM Bell? Frederick Courteney Selous??? I guess we're not all stuck in the zip code we call home. I guess when I spent two weeks in Anchorage I should've asked the clerk at the big two-story McDonald's about killing bears. Because apparently simply living in the same state with them makes you more an expert than those who have actually killed them. A juvenile statement, at best. But keep deflecting the real questions, you further illustrate my point. :rolleyes:

PS, I live two hours from Nashville, which is considered "middle Tennessee" so I don't really know if they have bears or not. I make a VERY good income working from home, handload and shoot on my own property almost daily. Typically 2000-3000rds a month. How much shooting do you do? I may buy as many as a dozen guns a year. I do most of my own gunsmithing and action jobs. I have no children and have been married less than a year. I drive an older vehicle, I don't play golf, own a boat, go fishing, buy a new vehicle every two years, smoke cigarettes, drink beer, or waste money on the things most people waste money on. I buy guns, I handload and I shoot. How much time, money and effort do you spend on your shooting? :rolleyes:

All that and I sit here and answer dumb questions from people who start half a dozen different threads because they don't know what to shoot a bear with.

16n69
March 17, 2012, 09:59 PM
Maybe in fantasyland. So I guess the answer is that you DO NOT understand how all of this works. Let me make this simple, bullets of similar sectional density, similar construction and fired at a similar velocity will all demonstrate the same propensity to penetrate. The only difference is that bigger bullets will make bigger holes. Bigger bullets will be more likely to break bones rather than poke a hole in them. The three important factors in determining a non-expanding bullet's effectiveness on game are diameter and sectional density. Velocity is the distant third. For any load in which the first two are adequate, velocity can be anywhere from 1200-2000fps. A bullet of sufficent diameter (like a slug) but with insufficient sectional density will make a big, shallow hole. A bullet of insufficient diameter (think 7.62 ball) and high sectional density will penetrate deeply but make a small hole with little tissue disruption. A bullet of large diameter (anything from .40 on up) coupled with a high sectional density will not only make a large hole but destroy a lot of tissue on its very deep path through the animal's body. Preferably resulting in an exit wound.



Again, who are these people and where are they? Where may I read their stories? I would like the opportunity to respect them too.



How many elephant charges do you think Gary Reeder has stopped in Flagstaff, AZ??? Probably not too many but he does go to Africa every year. How many Cape buffalo charges do you think Ross Seyfried has stopped in the US? Probably not too many but he has taken them with a revolver. How many of the African Big Six do you think Mark Hampton has taken in the US? My guess would be ZERO but he has done it multiple times in Africa.....with a handgun. Theodore Roosevelt grew up in the Northeast, how many large, exotic and dangerous critters do you think he has experience with? What about WDM Bell? Frederick Courteney Selous??? I guess we're not all stuck in the zip code we call home. I guess when I spent two weeks in Anchorage I should've asked the clerk at the big two-story McDonald's about killing bears. Because apparently simply living in the same state with them makes you more an expert than those who have actually killed them. A juvenile statement, at best. But keep deflecting the real questions, you further illustrate my point. :rolleyes:

PS, I live two hours from Nashville, which is considered "middle Tennessee" so I don't really know if they have bears or not. I make a VERY good income working from home, handload and shoot on my own property almost daily. Typically 2000-3000rds a month. How much shooting do you do? I may buy as many as a dozen guns a year. I do most of my own gunsmithing and action jobs. I have no children and have been married less than a year. I drive an older vehicle, I don't play golf, own a boat, go fishing, buy a new vehicle every two years, smoke cigarettes, drink beer, or waste money on the things most people waste money on. I buy guns, I handload and I shoot. How much time, money and effort do you spend on your shooting? :rolleyes:

All that and I sit here and answer dumb questions from people who start half a dozen different threads because they don't know what to shoot a bear with.
"Again, who are these people and where are they? Where may I read their stories? I would like the opportunity to respect them too. "
Well. for starters. this forum's own, kodiakbeer for one...has been mauled, you could start reading his posts, amoung others here...and perhaps buy & read his book.
Still after all that shooting at paper...and jugs...it does not qualify you to tell me all about bear defense, I will listen to those who are there, been attacked and KNOW what works.
What is your problem...you just have to have the las word of something...just stop posting here, you are not the bear authority that I or anyone else has to submit to or your academic "opinions".
Give it a rest.

Mal H
March 18, 2012, 01:46 AM
Closed at the request of the OP. As he stated, he has his answers and further discussion isn't necessary.

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