[Lee D]

ive been wanting one for years...the Baikal Bounty Hunter i have is an ok double,

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1770/002seh.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/002seh.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

but i sure would love to see someone here in the good ol US of A make one with real quality fit and finish. 12 ga and .410 would be ideal imo, and think how the cowboy action shooters would react. imo exposed hammers would be great, but id buy one with or without. as long as it said MADE IN THE USA id jump in line.... anyone else agree?

[MachIVshooter]

It'd be nice, but it's a niche market, and American SxS guns tend to be too expensive for that niche.

The way I went about solving the problem was to buy a nice old SxS and lob the tubes:

New Haven 12 ga.:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n117/Hunter2506/100_0991.jpg

[Dr.Rob]

Savage/Fox/Stevens made a ton of 311's, some with short barrels. They aren't that hard to find, some even had short (20 inch I think) barrels.

[Grayrock]

Dr Rob beat me to it. I was going to say the 311's and a hacksaw were your answer. Are you looking for something with hammers?

[Lee D]

hammers dont matter....i just want an American made double with quality fit and finish. ive seen the 311's, but never one with 20" barrels, and i couldnt bring myself to get out the hacksaw if i did have one anyway.

[JohnBT]

"American made double with quality fit and finish"

...and an American made price tag. You can't repeal the laws of economics.

[Lee D]

as long as they kept it $1000 or under, the price wouldnt really be an issue to me. youd think it could be done, and i think thered definitely be a market

[Carl N. Brown]

The Savage-made Stevens 311R was made with barrels just over 18" and promoted as an ideal "stake-out" gun for law enforcement (the R supposedly stood for "riot gun" version but it's been awhile since they first came out so I can't verify that bit).

[dprice3844444]

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger-side-by-sides.php

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/stoeger-over-and-unders.php

[PCFlorida]

I believe the Stoeger is made in Brazil isn't it?

[Lee D]

already own a Baikal...so i dont want a Stoeger. id love to see a Ruger coach gun

[drsfmd]

$1000 is TOTALLY unrealistic for an American made double. Cheapest American made double on the market that I'm aware of right now is the CSMC RBL, which starts around $4000. The last effort before that was the Ruger Gold Label, which at $2500 or so was a dismal failure-- largely due to poor quality.

[oneounceload]

Isn't happening, especially if you are looking for a CASS type gun. US made SxS guns, from the likes of CSMC, are made for upland hunting. There isn't a price-point market for CASS coach guns made in the US, except for the older Savage/Stevens guns previously metioned

[MCgunner]

hammers dont matter....i just want an American made double with quality fit and finish.

That don't sound like a 311 to me. They're pretty rough. I'd keep the Baikal. I have a Spartan/Biakal and like it a lot. It ain't American made, but neither is my Toyota, my Kawasaki, my Suzuki, my 2 Hondas...........don't own a Harley, either. :rolleyes:

[Lee D]

of course im gonna keep the Baikal, but a guy can dream cant he? LOL

[InkEd]

I would be a buyer for an American made cowboy style coachgun under $1000 too. Perhaps, a smaller company that still makes good quality stuff, like Henry Repeating Arms, could produce one or something. Ruger would be your best bet for a big company to actually make one here (others would just rebadge an import) BUT it's a niche market.

[Lee D]

Henry...an excellent company that i hadnt thought of yet. yes its a niche market, but many production guns are as well, and they sell. look at Henry's new Mares Leg....doesnt have alotta practical applications, but they will sell.

[JohnBT]

Ruger, with decades of experience with successful mass production, gave up on the Red Label. What were they actually selling for at the end, $1200 for the basic one? How can anyone do a SxS for any less in the U.S.? And that doesn't include the massive expensive of tooling up a production line.

One possible reason they discontinued them: "In the first 13 years of production (1995 - 2007), there were over 79,000 12 gauge units produced (which was the most popular version), which is an average of almost 6,100 per year. From 2008 - 2011, that number dropped to 1,381 units total (345 per year). "

Only 345 per year? Jeez, no wonder they threw in the towel.

[oneounceload]

Ruger would be your best bet for a big company to actually make one here

Ruger couldn't sell their Gold label SxS for three times what you are willing to pay -how do you think they would do it for 1/3 the money?

[Lee D]

for 1/3 the money they definitely could keep it simple (no engraving/no luster finish) and itd still appeal to many who buy imports due to a lack of options

[drsfmd]

JohnBT-- the RRL was out WAY before 1995... where is your information from?

Lee-- the "engraving and luster finish" on the GL were non-existent... it was unengraved with an unpolished brushed stainless steel finish... and it was still a failure at $3000.

What an American company could bring to the market for $1000 would be far worse quality than the imports that are 1/2 or less of that (and the quality of the Brazilian, Turkish, and Russian imports is pretty atrocious, so that's saying a lot!)... our labor is simply too expensive to compete.

[oneounceload]

for 1/3 the money they definitely could keep it simple (no engraving/no luster finish) and itd still appeal to many who buy imports due to a lack of options

Not if you want any semblance of quality - ie, the triggers make the gun go bang and in generally the same direction. Even using as much automation as possible, THAT equipment has to be amortized and it isn't cheap

CSMC uses some of the most advanced equipment today - as does Fabbri, and they make some guns that cost more than most folks paid for a house.......

US made, with good quality and reliability will be the pump, and even that is starting to get questioned in the lower model versions. In a SxS? sorry, it just isn't happening for a cheap price point

[Lee D]

Henry might be the best choice for this project imo. they produce excellent leverguns at a competitive price, and yes i know the tooling that might be required would be a major investment, but damn it, i want what i want LOL and i know im not the only one interested.

[Beagle-zebub]

If we assume that equal labor costs translate into equal gun prices, then an American gun would presumably be priced on par with an Italian or Japanese gun, so somewhere in the $1-2K range. If you think Japan and northern Italy are beating us on labor costs, you have my assurance they're not.

The trick is that unlike Miroku or Beretta, we don't already have a bunch of workers and machines for doing that job.

[Owen Sparks]

It has become too expensive to make doubles in America anymore.

[oneounceload]

Italian or Japanese gun, so somewhere in the $1-2K range

Those are old price values, for O/U, it is more like $3000-$4500 and for SxS, more like $4000 and way up.

[drsfmd]

If you think Japan and northern Italy are beating us on labor costs, you have my assurance they're not.

You would be wrong. Go poke around on here a little bit, and compare by job type... these are of course averages, but you'll see that on average Japan pays less, and Italy pays FAR less. http://www.worldsalaries.org/

[marine 97-03]

Southern Ohio gun.

[whalerman]

I agree with Lee D. A Ruger coach gun. Wouldn't that be a nice thing?

[JohnBT]

It beats me where I got that quote on production numbers; I've cleared the history and don't recall the google search terms I used yesterday.

So, let's look at the ATF gun manufacturers' report for, oh, 2009 and get the real production numbers.


http://www.atf.gov/statistics/download/afmer/2009-firearms-manufacturers-export-report.pdf

Ruger made 1075 shotguns in 2009, not the average of 345 cited in the earlier quote I posted. Not very many any way you look at it. How many would a new shotgun maker have to sell a year to pay off the new investment in equipment?

And where is anybody finding a new Citori for $1000? I just looked and the cheapest ones on line appear to be $1400 from places I've never heard of:

MSRP: $1,859.00
JoeBob's Sale Price: $1,399.95
JoeBob dun saved you $459.05!

[JohnBT]

The 2010 report www.atf.gov/statistics/download/afmer/2010-final-firearms-manufacturing-export-report.pdf

Ruger made 1398 shotguns. (That's less than 28 per state.)

Ithaca made 1201.

Beretta USA made 5191 in Maryland.

Remington made 280,000+.

Maverick made 393,000+.

[oneounceload]

A Ruger coach gun. Wouldn't that be a nice thing?

If it came with the issues their Red labels did, no it wouldn't; and at the price point you would have to pay, folks would be scrounging for the Stevens and cursing Ruger for bringing out a $3,000 SxS