[BIGGBAY90]

For the pro's--which would better protect items from theifs with ""only crowbar/hammer"" attacks on a safe-- a 1/4 inch thick steel body without fireproof or 7 ga with packed fiber liner fireproof with 16 ga inner.

At a range between $2000-$28000


size at least 27w to 32w, 60h, 23d
what would you recomment --help

[glock36]

I am not a pro but a very satisfied sturdysafe customer, when I filled out the order form online the price was at about 1500.00$ But when I called to get some answers to a few questions the gentleman on the phone took my order and the price I was given was just over $200.00 cheaper than online. Delivery was spot-on. I could not be more satisfied.

Good luck
God bless

[BIGGBAY90]

Is it true that a dime cannot be pushed between the door and the frame

[heeler]

Thicker steel is generally better.
Other factors besides the safe have to be evaluated such as do you have an alarm?
Do you have just glass windows or do you have sturdy steel burglar bars on them and door entrances?
Nice sized biting German Dogs can be very useful too.
But lastly how much value is going into the safe?
If I own 10k worth of firearms and optics they are not going into a Costco 12 gauge safe.
A small collection no big deal.
If your talking your cashed out 401k money or expensive jewlery better to go TL-15 minimum.

[a1abdj]

Is it true that a dime cannot be pushed between the door and the frame

If you keep your dimes locked in the safe, the burglars won't be trying to use them to open the safe door. ;)

[Jim K]

One poster on the subject said he would not have anything less than 5" thick laminated steel armor plate, with three consecutive doors each with four combination locks, all underground. Some posters thought such might be a tad much as well as being a bit costly.

Jim

[glock36]

Yes it is true that dime can't fit between the door and frame. The tolerance between the two are about that of a gnats backside.

Good luck
God speed

[4v50 Gary]

Dime? I thought it was a sheet of paper.

[a1abdj]

Dime? I thought it was a sheet of paper.

By the time we get done locking up our dimes and paper, we won't have any room left for the guns.

[4v50 Gary]

Frank. Sorry for the misunderstanding but I thought that the gap between the door and door frame should not allow for a sheet of paper to fit.

[BIGGBAY90]

by the time we get done locking up our dimes and paper, we won't have any room left for the guns.
i had hope for the pro's to respond

HSO ONce SAID:This board is called "The High Road" for a purpose. It's reason to exist is to be a place for a higher grade of discussion than is found on some other gun forums. Posts consisting of personal attacks, group stereotyping, macho chest-thumping, and partisan hackery are low road
THANK YOU

[a1abdj]

Frank. Sorry for the misunderstanding but I thought that the gap between the door and door frame should not allow for a sheet of paper to fit.


This isn't important when the door is strong enough, and isn't that impressive when the steel isn't that thick.

I have cannonball safes that are 100 years old with 8" thick steel doors that are so tight they will not close when a single piece of paper sits beween the door and the door frame. This was done to prevent liquid nitroglycerin from being used to blow the door off.

There are also more modern safes, that for similar reasons, have very tight fitting doors. It is not as important on gun safes, as they will not be facing the same types of attacks. In addition, the steel on most gun safes is so thin that it can be distorted or cut to produce whatever type of gap you would want.

Sure, a big gap is bad, especially on a gun safe. If you can walk right up and stick a pry bar in without even trying, you're loosing some important time that the bad guy would ordinarily need to create that gap. If the door is built so lightly that it will flex, then it's even worse as you're fighting a downhill battle at that point.

i had hope for the pro's to respond


I had hopped from my joking that it would be obvious how unimportant the door gap ultimately is when we're talking about thin sheet steel boxes.

To answer your question, you could weld the door of the Sturdy completely shut so that there was no gap at all, and that would not increase the security of the safe one bit. One exception may be if you had the safe positioned in such a way that the door was the only exposed side. Then welding the door shut may buy you a bit of time.

[Walkalong]

For the grab and go thieves who will most likely be the ones up against the average gun "safe", I think the lack of a gap to get a pry bar in would be very helpful.

I have laptops, TV's, etc within easy grasp. Even the wife's jewelry because despite my warnings, she leaves most of it out. Plenty to satisfy the average thief who does not want to spend time in a house. I do not care about those things. I'll buy another TV and laptop, and am not emotionally invested in my wife's jewelery.

[BIGGBAY90]

this isn't important when the door is strong enough, and isn't that impressive when the steel isn't that thick.

I have cannonball safes that are 100 years old with 8" thick steel doors that are so tight they will not close when a single piece of paper sits beween the door and the door frame. This was done to prevent liquid nitroglycerin from being used to blow the door off.

There are also more modern safes, that for similar reasons, have very tight fitting doors. It is not as important on gun safes, as they will not be facing the same types of attacks. In addition, the steel on most gun safes is so thin that it can be distorted or cut to produce whatever type of gap you would want.

Sure, a big gap is bad, especially on a gun safe. If you can walk right up and stick a pry bar in without even trying, you're loosing some important time that the bad guy would ordinarily need to create that gap. If the door is built so lightly that it will flex, then it's even worse as you're fighting a downhill battle at that point.



I had hopped from my joking that it would be obvious how unimportant the door gap ultimately is when we're talking about thin sheet steel boxes.

To answer your question, you could weld the door of the sturdy completely shut so that there was no gap at all, and that would not increase the security of the safe one bit. One exception may be if you had the safe positioned in such a way that the door was the only exposed side. Then welding the door shut may buy you a bit of time.
you mean with just an (automobile) crowbar and hammer one can get into that safe

[al123]

From BIGGBAY90: For the pro's--which would better protect items from theifs with ""only crowbar/hammer"" attacks on a safe-- a 1/4 inch thick steel body without fireproof or 7 ga with packed fiber liner fireproof with 16 ga inner.


I'm not a pro. Sorry.

Methinks the average smash-and-grab would probably not want to spend time breaking open any quality RSC. 1/4 inch versus 7 ga. body, it makes no difference. They'd just move on. In this aspect, I wouldn't agonize over this too much.

If you have a high value firearm collection, it makes sense to get a real UL rated safe. If you have a moderate collection and you've been eying the Sturdy, go ahead and get it if it has the price/features you want. If you want a Ft. Knox, Liberty Presidential, or AMSEC BF etc. that's fine too.

IMO, gunsafe manufacturers are going tout how important their products are, just like locksmiths will proclaim how important locks are, and alarm companies will say their alarms are absolutely necessary for home security. Ignore the sales hype and you do fine.

A gunsafe is just the final layer of protection. There are many other things one should do to give pause to a-would be burglar. Strong locks and hardware on all windows and entryways. Throw an alarm system and cameras into the mix. Make your home look/sound occupied, and if you get unannounced/unknown visitors don't answer the door. Keep 'em guessing.

If you have a large investment in firearms, another important thing is to keep your mouth shut. About a year ago, one collector in a nearby town got ambushed by home invasion robbers. They basically beat the combination(s) out of him to open his gunsafes. They stole over 100 firearms, some worth thousands of dollars. Apparently everyone knew, including neighbors, friends, shopkeepers etc. that he possessed a lot of guns.

The good news is they eventually caught most of the robbers. One of them was hiding some of the stolen guns in between the wall studs in his abode.

[cbuttre835]

you mean with just an (automobile) crowbar and hammer one can get into that safe

I'll chime in...

Yep. I think I could with a couple good construction wrecking bars and a shop hammer. A single, plastic handled Snap-on prybar (automotive?) -- no, probably not without a lot of time.

The deck on my lawnmower is 7 gauge. It's nearly 3/16" thick, but it will dent and bend, and is reinforced in the critical places, for a reason. The 16 gauge inner liner only serves to keep the insulation in place.

[a1abdj]

you mean with just an (automobile) crowbar and hammer one can get into that safe

Sturdy claims their safes exceed the RSC standards. RSC standards say that the safe must pass 5 minutes against an automobile sized crowbar (18" or shorter tire tool, screwdriver, etc), and hammer. So the Sturdy, by their own admission, will last at least 5 minutes and one second against a small crowbar and hammer.

[BIGGBAY90]

sturdy claims their safes exceed the rsc standards. Rsc standards say that the safe must pass 5 minutes against an automobile sized crowbar (18" or shorter tire tool, screwdriver, etc), and hammer. So the sturdy, by their own admission, will last at least 5 minutes and one second against a small crowbar and hammer.
wait a minute, you mean that a cars tire iron and a hammer can get into any rcs safe that is bolted down (where's the leverage) and in just 5 min. (sturdy tight tolerance)--have you perform these tests or going by whats on paper

[JohnBT]

When looking at those ratings, remember that it is actual working time by experienced people. They are, I believe, given all the necessary info about the construction and design, etc.

Just set a new bottle of Jack Daniel's and $400 on top of the safe and the crack heads and teenagers might just take it and go. Maybe they'll leave the tv, too. The deductible on my homeowner's insurance is much higher than all of that. I tried to get them to raise it to $10k, but they wouldn't, only $5k without a boatload of paperwork and approvals.

And a dime ain't what it used to be. ;)

[maple_leaf_eh]

Let me chime in here (1st post!). I use federal government security containers originally designed to secure Top Secret documents in 4-drawer filing cabinets. These containers have a dial lock, 4 (or 6) crossbars and weigh about 400lbs empty. If they meet the rigourous attack delay and casual access requirements of my government, they are good enough for my guns. And that is what I will tell the cops, the prosecutor and the insurance company.

[wrc]

if they meet the rigourous attack delay and casual access requirements of my government, they are good enough for my guns.

Class 5 or Class 6? Class 5 is specified for weapons storage, for reasons obvious in the standard. The threat models for these containers are far different (and broader) than the common UL standards.

Actually, do the Canadian standards meet line-for-line with US standards? I suspect there is overlap because of NATO and common protection of TS material, but I don't have your standards in front of me.

[a1abdj]

wait a minute, you mean that a cars tire iron and a hammer can get into any rcs safe that is bolted down (where's the leverage) and in just 5 min. (sturdy tight tolerance)--have you perform these tests or going by whats on paper

I'm telling you what the UL standards are for the RSC rating, and then telling you what Sturdy says on their website.

[BIGGBAY90]

i'm telling you what the ul standards are for the rsc rating, and then telling you what sturdy says on their website.
well i have one that says (8m 10) so i guess this is a rsc and not a safe but do sturdy come with a ul (if you know)

[Shadow 7D]

For $28,000
Can't you buy a decent door and install a vault that'll be much larger than any safe you can buy?

[BIGGBAY90]

for $28,000
can't you buy a decent door and install a vault that'll be much larger than any safe you can buy?
i hope thats a typo but baciscally we only have to go by the ul ratings right

[Shadow 7D]

Well, they are the rating agency, BUT some are better than others, ask frank, he's the specalist.

I'm pretty sure you can buy a new or used vault door that exceeds (vastly) RSC standard as the access point to a reinforced room that ALSO exceeds RSC standards for 28,000 dollars

for 2800 you can buy a heavy duty fire door, metal jam, good dead bolts, hell a magnetic lock if you can find it (try the REUSIT store, habitat for humanity recycling store, some REALLY good steals there)

Masonry board, reinforcements to the studs etc. (if you have a basement/crawl space you might want to think of reinforcing the floor structure to keep it from burning and collapsing the room in case of fire) chain link fence or concrete reinforcement grid mesh, possible even something like cinderblocks etc. and you have a much better than average defense, hell it probably would pass the RSC test....

BUT none of this stops your buddies brother-in-law and his crack head friends, or your teenagers friends or... somebody who knows what you have from just backing up to your house when you aren't there and hooking chains up to your safe and ripping it out of the house.

SO my first line would be just not telling.

[BIGGBAY90]

I guess there's no good rsc safe but only the high sercurity safes which weights 1500 lbs plus minium

[Double_J]

I worked in the atm business for a few years. One of our machines was installed in a business, and had a 3/4 ton van back into it three times before the concrete anchor bolts gave. The rear bumper of the van was stuck on top of the machine and the tires were off the ground after the third hit. I don't think that Joe Crackhead is going to spend better than 5 minutes with a large van trying to get an rsc/safe out of a house/garage if it is bolted down properly. You can buy concrete anchor bolts from most home improvement stores pretty cheap, and rent a hammer drill. I personally would go with AT LEAST 3/8" bolts and I would double up on the nuts. Make sure you know what the largest size that will fit in the cabinet is, and go for that size if possible.

It might just be worth it to have a professional locksmith install the safe in the final resting place. I doubt it would cost much and you would have a guarantee about the quality of the install for insurance purposes and peace of mind. A good rsc/safe properly hardened will make most thieves give up and go for easier loot. If they go for your safe and get away with it after it has been hardened then you have MUCH bigger things to worry about. That means that someone probably had the combination, or they were skilled at opening locks.