[CMV]

Not overpressure this time, but I can't seem to get a load that works well for good groups.

I used the big target to zero for the new load. After putting up this group I moved up several clicks & then went to 2" circles. They were all over the place grouping no better (or worse) than IMI M193 or XM193. My 55gr plinking loads with Hornady FMJBT do as well or better.

It's probably me. It might be my Barska scope or $9 WM rings (and I really want to blame it on something other than my poor ability to put holes in paper!)

Sadly, those sky high pressure ones I posted a couple weeks back all grouped under an inch. I can't seem to get anything else with the Vmax to perform consistently well for me. Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and should be using something other than Vmax for this? But I thought it was one of the more accurate rounds out there in 55gr flavor.

I'm not competing - I'm just trying to get a consistent super tight group to see how well I can do. Maybe I'm at my limits while the rifle & ammo are capable of much more. From the first time I touched the platform in basic training in 1990 I was always really good with this type rifle. I turn 40 this year - is this what happens when you get old? :)

It just irritates me that I can get a great group, then can't repeat it using the same ammo, same rifle, just switching to a target that's hung a few inches higher on the same target stand. Indoor range, so no foul weather to blame it on either.

Still don't have a good rest but I was set up pretty well on front & rear sandbags, from a concrete bench. 1:9 HBAR 20" AR with 20x50 scope on a carry handle mount. 55gr Vmax, 1x LC, CCI #41, 24.6 gr H335, 2.257 OAL.

Maybe the competition shooting forum is a better place for this? Only thing I can think of other than I just can't shoot anymore is that the scope is way up there sitting on top of the carry handle. My other is a flat top so I could lower that a lot switching to it, but it's a 16" M4 profile barrel & I *think* this 20" Bushmaster HBAR should be more accurate at 100 yds than that 16" Shaw barrel.

I don't think it's trigger pull. I just have a standard trigger group that I polished when I put the rifle together. For a standard AR trigger it's pretty good, but nothing compared to a Jewell or NM or Timney. If I looked at today's targets objectively - like they were shot by someone else - I would suggest trigger pull drills because it appears the shooter is flinching or jerking the trigger to group like that. But when I go to iron sights (on something much larger than a 2" circle) I'm pretty consistent in the CM area of something like a B27. I should be all over a B27 with iron sights if it's a trigger pull issue I'd think. Plus with the countless tens of thousands of rounds I've sent downrange I think I have the basics like that down. I always qualified 'expert' in the Army and won a class competition (by a lot) using an M9 & M4 at the end of S&T for a special ops unit.

http://cmv.zftp.com/tgt1.jpg


http://cmv.zftp.com/tgt2.jpg

[NeuseRvrRat]

could the fact that the large circles at the bottom don't have a small dot to aim at be making the difference? i know i shoot smaller groups when i have a tiny dot to aim at. i wouldn't think it would make as much difference as your target shows, though.

[T Bran]

If you are not getting a consistant cheek weld you will have problems. Try the flat top.
Craning your neck will definately have an adverse effect on your groups. I had a scope on a MINI 30 that I removed for the same reason it was just too far up there to be consistant.
LUCK
T

[CMV]

Possible. "Aim small, miss small" from The Patriot comes to mind :)

But a 2" circle with a 20x scope @ 100 yds is pretty big - not hard to judge the center with the crosshairs and use the adjacent ones to see that the scope is level. If there had been a 1/4" dot in the center, I'm pretty sure I'd have been covering it every time.

But I will add that for next weekend to see if it helps.

Might try 1" circles too since I'm going for <1" groups.

I thought about just using a 50 yd rimfire benchrest targets (1" circles) but I don't think I'll see the holes in the black through the scope. I like lighter colors on glossy photo paper - I can see the holes easily & don't have to take the spotting scope along. I have a hard enough time keeping my CZ452 with this same scope inside all the 1" circles at 50 yds - would probably have a much harder time doing it at 100 with an AR.

What about the weapon heating up? I see a lot of the benchrest guys blowing fans on their rifles and others taking a lot of time between shots (not during matches, but for the general range work) to let things cool off. If H335 is temp sensitive and I'm firing a lot of shots (not bump firing or mag dumps, but a shot every 15-20 seconds), would that be throwing me off the longer I shoot? It was about 50° today (indoors but unheated).

[loose noose]

Looks like your chasing the bull! In other words just concentrate at 6 o'clock on the bull and shoot groups of 3, rather than trying to center your crosshairs on the orange dot.

[CMV]

Cheek weld? With this setup it's more like a "chin weld" :)

I *think* it's consistent. Instead of "nose on the charging handle" I put my left hand on top of the buttstock with the back of my hand against the charging handle, then I put my chin on that meaty part of my left hand where the thumb & index finger meet. Since the bags are holding the rifle mostly, I'm not needing my left hand to support under the handguard. I sort of "hug" the rear sandbag with my right arm moving/squeezing it to change elevation. Other than the little punch in the chin with each shot it's about as comfortable as I can get on it with the scope so high. But it feels like I'm getting a consistent sight picture thru the scope this way, but probably not nearly as consistent as the standard nose to the charging handle I get with iron sights or the Aimpoint.

[CMV]

loose - I can try that too.

I didn't mention it but I just started shooting scoped on an AR. Used to only use irons, then only the Aimpoint. But I was only ever shooting for "minute of Coke can".

I could very well have some seriously flawed fundamentals at work using a scope vs other sighting systems.

[788Ham]

As Noose mentioned, just sit the horizontal cross hairs just under the circle @ 6:00 o'clock, like its holding the circle up, then squeeze. A lot easier than trying to find the "center" of the circle.

[ZXD9]

I heard another version where you put the circle your shooting at in the corner of the crosshair. Left side of circle touches vertical portion of crosshair and bottom of circle touches horizontal portion of crosshair. Gives you two points of contact.

Something like:
........|
........|O
---------------
........|
........|

Ignore the periods. Need them to position things properly.

[243winxb]

For a 1-9 twist, try Hornady 68gr match or Sierra 69 gr match bullets.

[CMV]

I was thinking of going heavier. I recently rid myself of all steel cased and non-55gr .223/5.56mm. No particular reason other than I'm more of an M193 fan than M855 and keeping everything somewhat standardized.

I'll try the different aiming techniques. I have a feeling it's more me than the rifle or ammo - something I'm doing is causing inconsistency.

[briantf]

Your scope and rings are suspect, to say the least. Your choice of targets is misguided. Get some cheap dot stickers from Office Depot and paste them on a blank sheet of paper, <1".

You're only shooting at 100 yards, heavier bullets are the only way to go at 600+ but a waste of time at shorter distances. The flat-base V-Max's are a good choice, but even lighter may get you better groups. Flat base bullets are generically more accurate at shorter distances, <300 yards. Sandia Nat'l Labs and their self guided bullet just confirmed the "OLD GUN GUY" mythology.

My wife has a bad shoulder, so the load for her 50 gr V-Max target ammo is a light charge of H322. It shoots .5 MOA at 100 yards for her and my 10 year old boy (actually better for him, don't tell my wife).

I just worked up a load for my Dad to take squirrel hunting with another 223 rifle, 35 gr Hornady NTX (non-lead for condor zones). Going with an OCW series at 200 yards, I dropped a 5 shot group into <.35 MOA.

My baseline group to foul the barrel was my 52 gr A-Max/H322 load, even with the first shot through an oiled barrel going low left it only opened up to .6 MOA at 200 yards. It's normally a reliable .4 MOA loading.

The High Power match coordinator at our range has a pet load for his AR's that uses a 60 gr V-Max and Varget - it is a VERY light load, but he wrote it up and gave me a baggie of a couple dozen bullets so I could try it in my rifles.

The beauty of handloading is getting ammo optimized to YOUR rifles. You didn't mention how you did your load development. Can you expand on this?

Regards,
Brian in CA

[cougar1717]

It appears that there are several things going on here. To diagnose - it's one thing at a time. 1)CMV-You appear to be an accomplished shooter. It would be one thing if there was a lot of variation with the v-max cartridges, but they seem to be approx 2moa consistently. 2)It doesn't appear that the load is off - that's a very common load. However, your rifle may not like it. Small charge variances can make a big difference - try a batch at 25.0 and 25.3gr just to see if it makes a difference. 3)It could be the rifle - but you do have a very tight 3 shot group above. 4) I have to agree that your scope and rings are suspect. Also, a scope with that high of a magnification is probably rather long - a mount that allows the scope to be moved forward will help a lot in getting a good cheek weld instead of balancing your chin on the side of the stock (been there). 5) Targets - I would also agree with the package of stick on dots. The ones I get include an orange dot with a black diamond in the center. It's very easy to pick up the orange dot through the scope and center on that black diamond to have a consistent point of aim.
I would start with those items - hope this helps.

[CMV]

I have a Nikon Monarch I could use instead but it only goes to 9x. Don't know how well I'd see 1" dots at 100yds with it. Won't hurt to try.

Still would have to mount it with Tasco or Weaver (whichever one WM carries - I forget) rings. But since it's only a 40mm objective I could put it on the 16" flat top rifle and get a better position on the rifle.

For as cheap as it was, I like the Barska scope. It's very clear even at max magnification. Plus with that much magnification I can see the holes without switching to the spotting scope. Seems to be working ok on my 50yd benchrest setup, but maybe .22LR is the most recoil it can handle?

As for the work up, I've tried a bunch of different things with it. I was consistently getting around .8" groups at higher charge weights but I was dangerously over pressure with them - even at 25.3 gr. 24.6 is probably going to be my max on these.

I might just start over at 23.0 & try bumping up in steps of .2

I'm also out of 55gr FMJBT and am going to get some Hornady 55gr soft points. These: http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/6134 They cost the same so I'll try them out.

They should be more accurate than the FMJBT, but compared to Vmax will they be as good? Probably somewhere in between I'm guessing.

[briantf]

>>>
I have a Nikon Monarch I could use instead but it only goes to 9x. Don't know how well I'd see 1" dots at 100yds with it. Won't hurt to try.
>>>

The Monarch's I've seen at my club range won't have any trouble seeing the .224 holes at 9X, let alone seeing the target dots. Nikon makes some good glass.

Also, how were you determining you were over pressure?

Look at some of the ladder or OCW style load development regimens. With OCW style development, there are typically at least two "accuracy nodes" that you'll run into, one at a light charge and one at a heavy charge.

The idea is you're matching the velocity of the bullet to the frequency of the barrel, so the bullet exits when the barrel is in the middle point of the flexing range. The load I worked up for my wife's rifle is only 22.0 gr of H322 - the starting load on the way to a 24.0 max.

>>>
I might just start over at 23.0 & try bumping up in steps of .2
>>>

I agree, good plan, but I would maybe go .3, if you weigh every charge this will get you enough data points 1/3 fewer cartridges. Ideally you do OCW at 200 or 300 yards so you can see the results more clearly, but you'll have to live with 100 if that's what you have access to.

Have fun!

Regards,
Brian in CA