What is the most Lethal 380 ACP ammo on the market


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2'Bucks'11
March 4, 2012, 10:58 PM
I have a short barreled 380 Acp (Kel Tec P3AT) and I was wondering if anybody has compiled stats on effectiveness of various brands, bullet grains, and type(fmj, Jhp,ect...)? Or if somebody can point me in the right direction for some hard facts it would be nice.

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Wahoo95
March 4, 2012, 11:17 PM
Most lethal is the one that's most well placed

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

2'Bucks'11
March 4, 2012, 11:42 PM
Ok... The the type of bullet that consistently does the most amount of damage? In case I'm off a bit.

jameslovesjammie
March 4, 2012, 11:50 PM
I would be more concerned with "what ammo does my .380 function on 100% of the time with no failure to feed/failure to extract." It doesn't matter how "deadly" the bullet design is if it doesn't function in YOUR gun.

Water-Man
March 5, 2012, 12:13 AM
I load my .380 with Buffalo Bore 100gr.+P HCFN. because I feel it's the most lethal in this caliber.

Shadow 7D
March 5, 2012, 12:16 AM
Whichever one YOU can hit what you aim with consistently
AND
is 100% in your gun...

past that is just opinion and preference

we are talking fractions of an inch here not Atomic Bombs...

leadcounsel
March 5, 2012, 02:57 AM
I'll echo what's been said. You need reliability and shot placement. If you do YOUR part and the gun does IT's part, the bullet will do the job. .380 has respectable penetration (and expansion if you use HP) enough to get the job done if you aim for vitals and hit were you aim.

Tex4426
March 5, 2012, 03:28 AM
Harnady makes some good ones...Buffalo bore is pretty good...but basically any jhp that will feed in your gun consistantly enough to trust your life with it..I use Winchester pdx1s in all my defense guns..if u remember the black talons its the same bullet..they just made it a different color to appear less aggressive

ku4hx
March 5, 2012, 06:39 AM
The most lethal of any cartridge is that cartridge with which you can consistently hit what you aim at and follow up with quickly enough to make a second, or third, well placed shot.

That being said, the most lethal round for the one .380 Auto I own is a standard velocity round nose jacketed bullet. That's the only round it will chamber reliably and therefore, ipso facto, it's the most lethal for that creature I'm trying to terminate.

Conversely, any JHP in the gun approaches perfect lethality too ... for me the shooter since they just won't run.

kokapelli
March 5, 2012, 08:38 AM
I suggest you look here and make your decision based on actually facts……

http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP%20ammunition%20performance%20in%20ballistic%20gelatin.pdf

2'Bucks'11
March 5, 2012, 12:25 PM
First off I have shot all sorts of ammo threw my P3AT. Never had a fail of any sort, even right out of the box. Accuracy is a mute point bc I have a 2.75" inch barrel. It is gonna be off a bit... Third It is a side arm, don't wanna hear it. Forth, thank you for the raw data kokapelli, and as well to the rest who actually suggested something helpful.

2'Bucks'11
March 5, 2012, 12:48 PM
To be fare you really have to watch the Brassfetcher data. They are NOT comparing bare gel across the board. This is an inherent skewing of the facts and a common error. However if you re-categorize the data to compare same variables it would be great.

GCMkc
March 5, 2012, 01:12 PM
tnoutdoor9 on youtube has a bunch of .380 ballistic gel test videos. I suggest that you look at some of these.
Tests include:
FMJ/JHP
Hornady
Winchester T-series
Winchester PDX
Speer Gold dot
Ball ammo

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLED7C307FC0D5B236&feature=plcp

Shadow 7D
March 5, 2012, 01:34 PM
Once again, in gel tests it's important to learn about the variables and realize that it's an amalgamation of SOFT tissue density, and results in meat will vary (significantly)

But FMJ or hot heavy .380 seem to meet the penetration test.

JohnnyK
March 5, 2012, 01:52 PM
I just read a forensics book about gunshot wounds and while in theory hollow points are more effective... in reality the author hasn't seen a single instance where the factor of hp vs fmj determined in wheather the person shot lived or died... the only issue was shot placement...

MICHAEL T
March 5, 2012, 08:17 PM
Corbon DPX the copper HP that was designed useing a KelTec P3AT as the test pistol.

Here this might help http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm

Tex4426
March 6, 2012, 07:53 AM
The way I see it 9 out of 10 ppl ain't worried about shot placement when there being attracted they just point and shoot...so in that case you may want a hp

Pyro
March 6, 2012, 07:55 AM
Most lethal is one that digs deep enough and hits the right things.

kokapelli
March 6, 2012, 08:19 AM
The way I see it 9 out of 10 ppl ain't worried about shot placement when there being attracted they just point and shoot...so in that case you may want a hp
"author hasn't seen a single instance where the factor of hp vs fmj determined in wheather the person shot lived or died"

2'Bucks'11
March 14, 2012, 03:24 AM
I guess it wasn't lethality that I want... I Just want to know what exactly the rounds gonna do. every time, just for comfort.

RickMD
March 14, 2012, 08:11 AM
A 1/5 ounce of lead traveling at a speed sufficient to traverse three football fields in one second is going to cause significant trauma to any living organism that it contacts. Keep in mind that the objective of a self defense firearm is to disable an attacker so that you can safely extricate yourself from a dangerous situation. You're not a LEO storming meth labs nor do you have any need to shoot through plate glass or car doors. Doing so as a private citizen is likely to get you more jail time than your attacker. Any well placed shot with a .380 is quite likely to end the festivities.

JRH6856
March 14, 2012, 08:44 AM
I Just want to know what exactly the rounds gonna do. every time, just for comfort.

Oh. What you want is a crystal ball. I don't think you'll find one.

Fiv3r
March 14, 2012, 09:04 AM
I would try to find the ammo your gun cycles the best. The. 380 is not the most statistically lethal caliber. Its a small, light bullet where lethality is going to be based on where it hits...but the same is true for all handgun bullets. Lethality is something I would never base my ammo choice on. Something like 80+% of all people who are shot by handguns and get medical attention live.
Typically a .380 is something you carry for convenience that is just big enough to take the wind out of an attackers sails in you do your part.
In short, for me I go for feed/fire reliability and shot placement when it comes to what I shoot in my LCR.

kim breed
March 14, 2012, 09:21 AM
Hollow points in the 380 cal are fine for summer time use. Tend to open fairly quickly. .32, and .380 hard to beat ball ammo.

Loosedhorse
March 14, 2012, 09:28 AM
In case I'm off a bit.There is no ammo that corrects for that.

The difference between the best expanded .380 slug (http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm) and an unexpanded one is about 1/7 of an inch on each side; that's the extra margin of error expansion gives you.

2'Bucks'11
March 15, 2012, 05:33 AM
Cant Fix off a bit when I need to be extra quick that is true. I can't exactly ask my attacker to wait while I aim...Have you ever tried that? :) So back to Hp v ball...

2'Bucks'11
March 15, 2012, 05:36 AM
Cant Fix off a bit when I need to be extra quick that is true. I can't exactly ask my attacker to wait while I aim...Have you ever tried that? :) So back to Hp v ball... What works in this small of a cal? Is there benefits to just wounding and would that work better?

ku4hx
March 15, 2012, 08:39 AM
Bottom line is there just ain't no magic bullets, shot placement is king and buy and shoot the most powerful and reliable cartridge you can consistently shoot accurately. More simply put, "It all depends".

kokapelli
March 15, 2012, 09:17 AM
There is no ammo that corrects for that.

The difference between the best expanded .380 slug (http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm) and an unexpanded one is about 1/7 of an inch on each side; that's the extra margin of error expansion gives you.
And if it's a fmj it goes through more tissue, so which is best. I like more Tissue damage due to more depth.

Jhp may or may not reach a critical organ where a fmj will reach the organ and likely leave an entrance and exit hole in it. I like the probability of two holes verses a single and little larger hole.

Thompsoncustom
March 15, 2012, 01:32 PM
Well I would say that swampfox ammo was the hottest out there but the owner passed so that's a no go, grizzly xtreme would by far make the biggest hole but there is not a lot of data out of these rounds because they are so pricy. Magsafe makes some birdshot-holllowpoint like bullets that travel at around 1800fps but they only weight 52gr.

There are a lot of different options and exotic ammo out there but does one really work any better than the other I don't know, personally I carry standard hollowpoints.

kokapelli
March 15, 2012, 01:43 PM
What difference does velocity play in a 380 round?
If a Winchester semi wadcutter will penetrate 16" of ballistic gelatin at a little over 800 fps, what would be the benefit of a little more velocity?

All this discussion of what this round will do and what that round will do imo is useless in 380.

The round is what it is and as long as it penetrates deep enough to hit something vital is pretty much all one can expect.

Loosedhorse
March 15, 2012, 05:05 PM
And if it's a fmj it goes through more tissue...It might. Depends.

An FMJ doesn't necessarily go through more tissue. In a straight, frontal chest shot, the most any bullet can go through is the thinkness of the chest from front to back. If the JHP gets to the far skin, but the FMJ sails clean through, well, you have similar length wound tracks, even though the FMJ "could have" gone through more.

And then there's the question of downrange safety when a HC bullet that can penetrate over 20 inches of flesh and bone exits after going though a chest that's a bit over 12 inches thick.

In any case, my point was that the expansion of a slug does not compensate for poor aim. Or even for bad luck!

dfsixstring
March 15, 2012, 05:31 PM
I carry the Hornady 90 grain .380 in my LCP. BTW - I've fired everything from Federal, to Winchester, Hornady to TullAmmo in my LCP without a "SINGLE" feed issue.

kokapelli
March 15, 2012, 05:35 PM
Most "stops" are psychological, not physiological in nature. The bad guy either faints or makes a voluntary decision to stop what he's doing. It's possible that a bullet with more "wallop," one that quickly delivers its energy and produces more blunt force sensation, might play a role in producing psychological collapse. But, psychological reaction to being shot is highly erratic and unreliable. It doesn't happen to everyone, especially a highly motivated attacker who's determined to cause as much harm as he can before he's stopped.

Unless you're clairvoyant, you cannot predict the exact circumstances of any self-defense situation you might find yourself in. Therefore, your goal in choosing a bullet for personal defense should be to select one that will be effective in as many different scenarios as possible.

Your bullet must be able to penetrate deeply enough to contact and destroy tissue that is critical to the immediate survival of your attacker.

The two most important factors in stopping a bad guy are: 1) where you place your bullets, and 2) what organs your bullets penetrate and damage.
How much penetration is adequate?

According to the nation's most prominent wound ballistics experts, your bullets should penetrate at least 12 inches of soft tissue. Penetration beyond 18 inches is considered too much, and a less penetrating design should be considered to optimize the cartridge's wounding potential.

But with small caliber cartridges such as .22 LR, .25 ACP, and .32 ACP (and sometimes .380 ACP), you're better off selecting a non-expanding bullet that might exceed 18 inches of penetration than to choose a bullet that expands and underpenetrates.

When a bullet expands, the increased diameter and non-aerodynamic shape acts like a parachute to quickly slow and stop the bullet as it penetrates flesh. These tiny bullets lack the mass and momentum to achieve adequate penetration after they expand.

Bullets that meet the 12-18 inch penetration guidelines have proven to be very effective in police shooting incidents that have been investigated by reputable researchers who use the scientific method. These findings have been verified and validated by other distinguished wound ballistics researchers who've fully reviewed the data.

These findings are far superior in validity to the Marshall/Sanow "one-shot stopping power" junk-science that is published in newsstand gun magazines.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

And if your on the Hornady Critical Defense band wagon you might want to look at this article

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm

2'Bucks'11
March 16, 2012, 12:17 AM
It's not that I'm on the Hornady Critical Defense band wagon per-say. They just were on sale. I have a hard time passing a buy one get one 1/2 off ammo sale.

fatfreddiescat
April 22, 2012, 02:40 AM
I have a short barreled 380 Acp (Kel Tec P3AT) and I was wondering if anybody has compiled stats on effectiveness of various brands, bullet grains, and type(fmj, Jhp,ect...)? Or if somebody can point me in the right direction for some hard facts it would be nice.
guy wants a simple suggestion or two on opinion as to the quality/reliability of a cartridge for a .380. 15-20 opinions about hot air, and whichever goes the straightest, and other buffoon-sent answers.
Does anyone have an opinion as to the better shot? I like Speer Gold Dot.

nelson133
April 22, 2012, 07:03 AM
So as you (the op) can see there are many opinions and very little repeatable, verifiable facts. As said above, make sure that what ever you carry in your gun, works in your gun every time. If you have to shoot, shoot until the threat stops and you can get away. Carry the most powerful round with the most magazine capacity you can manage. Remember that there is less difference in lethality between a .380 and a .45 than there is between a .45 and a 12 gauge or a 5.56. All pistol are lousy stoppers when compared to long guns.

meanmrmustard
April 22, 2012, 07:47 AM
There is no ammo that corrects for that.

The difference between the best expanded .380 slug (http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm) and an unexpanded one is about 1/7 of an inch on each side; that's the extra margin of error expansion gives you.
That 1/7 of an inch could mean life or death, especially where shot placement is concerned. I would not forget that. When we are talking about a 2/7" diameter increase across the face of the slug during expansion, that may be the tissue destruction factor needed.

As for my subjective answer to the OP, I prefer Speer GD. Shot into wet pack, it is quite devastating, Dow what it is. Yet I agree with kokapelli, shot placement is key. Although, has anyone researched
whether or not hydrostatic shock apllies to .380?


Edit: Looked for myself, and sadly it does not contain enough mass or velocity to induce hydrostatic shock.

cluznar
April 24, 2012, 07:18 AM
No ammo is any good if you miss your target, SHOT PLACEMENT is more critical than ammo. I use Corbon Pwrball ammo or Hornady Critical Defense ammo in my Bersa Thunder .380 for carry.

meanmrmustard
April 24, 2012, 07:38 AM
In my state, you cannot just wake up, find a guy stealing your TV, and shoot him. You or those in your home must be in threat of their lives in order to legally defend yourself. This means that if a BG has a knife, bat, gun, etc., I'm going to be a little on the skittish/adrenaline fueled side. I agree shot placement is king, but I doubt most HONEST folks will tell you that they would take the time to aim better than center of mass. Not me: I want to feasibly hit my target and put them down, but not take the time to think TOO much about aiming, when I can instinctively point, squeeze, and end the threat. To help this, I myself believe in tissue destruction, not penetration. If I can get a few more thousandths of an inch in wound channel diameter, meaning more blood loss or hydrostatic damage to organs necessary for the function of living, I'll take it. So, to me, shot placement is king...bullet expansion is the vicious, ugly queen. I've read the article that kokapelli posted a few months prior, and based soley on research, I'd prefer a slug that dumps as much energy into soft tissue, causing as much hydrostatic shock to organs as possible, rather than taking precious moments to aim squarely at any one specific place or using FMJ.

ByAnyMeans
April 24, 2012, 11:00 AM
I go with WWB flat nose for my P3AT. As stated reliability is most important with accuracy after that. WWB has been completely reliable for my pistol and it is also my practice ammo. The FNFMJ gets plenty of penetration.

kokapelli
April 24, 2012, 11:43 AM
I go with WWB flat nose for my P3AT. As stated reliability is most important with accuracy after that. WWB has been completely reliable for my pistol and it is also my practice ammo. The FNFMJ gets plenty of penetration.
This is my choice as well for my 380 pistols.

Motownfire
April 24, 2012, 04:54 PM
My Ruger LCP enjoys eating Hornady Critical Defense .380 ammo. Prior to carrying mine, I sent 200 rounds of it down range to ensure the gun would operate correctly with that ammo. With 200 rounds of Hornaday Critical Defense ammo and about 800 rounds of Federal brass FMJ ammo it has not had a malfunction. I am confident that this little pocket gun will operate any time I need it to.

m2steven
April 25, 2012, 08:26 AM
I think everything else being equal, Buffalo Bore ammo will turn your 380 into a genuine self defense pistol. I've used one type of Corbon which I also thought was terrific. It was a hot hollow point which has fed perfectly in every 380 I've tested. Corbon is not as hot as Buffalo Bore, but it's great ammunition.

JohnnyOrygun
April 25, 2012, 09:58 AM
Interesting article, talks about most calibers from 22 up and makes recommendations for different guns.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

Hope it helps, I'm going to try out the author's recommendations for my p3at.
John

wild cat mccane
April 25, 2012, 02:24 PM
"Old Grandpa" at KTRange has does the most extensive testing of .380 ammo out a of Kel Tec P3AT (and therefore the Ruger LCP).

Speer Gold Dot expands the most while penetrating the deepest.

I highly suggest you look at his work at KTRange (though he posts in KTOG) before you take any random advice here.

wild cat mccane
April 25, 2012, 02:26 PM
Buffalo Bore uses a generic hollow point in their .380. So even though it might be fastest, it uses the worst hollow point technology. This means a slower bullet using Barnes, Gold Dot, etc, can still be better as a hollow point.

Search KTOG on the issue. Quite well known even if you didn't know.

kokapelli
April 25, 2012, 02:47 PM
"Old Grandpa" at KTRange has does the most extensive testing of .380 ammo out a of Kel Tec P3AT (and therefore the Ruger LCP).

Speer Gold Dot expands the most while penetrating the deepest.

I highly suggest you look at his work at KTRange (though he posts in KTOG) before you take any random advice here.
Old Grandpa uses wet packs (newspapers) to test bullet performance and IMO there is just no way to get consistant results with different bundles of soaked newspapers.

Also wet newspaper isn't in anyway similar to human tissue.

If you want to know how a bullet will perform in real world conditions, find calibrated ballistic gelatin test results instead of bundled wet newspapers.

Steve C
April 25, 2012, 05:50 PM
the author hasn't seen a single instance where the factor of hp vs fmj determined in wheather the person shot lived or died... the only issue was shot placement...

As far as it goes this is likely true however death of the assailant isn't a requirement for successful self defense. Most handgun shootings are not lethal and certainly not immediately lethal. The purpose of using JHP is that it makes a larger hole and if you have to rely on circulatory system depletion to stop the assailants agression then a larger hole brings that on faster.

At best a JHP will expand and produce a large wound cavity, at worst its hollow gets plugged or closed off and fails to expand so it acts as a solid nose bullet. Solids never expand and have no opportunity to produce a larger wound cavity.

marcclarke
April 26, 2012, 06:28 AM
I have a short barreled 380 Acp (Kel Tec P3AT) and I was wondering if anybody has compiled stats on effectiveness of various brands, bullet grains, and type(fmj, Jhp,ect...)? Or if somebody can point me in the right direction for some hard facts it would be nice.
"Lethal"?

kokapelli
April 26, 2012, 09:19 AM
As far as it goes this is likely true however death of the assailant isn't a requirement for successful self defense. Most handgun shootings are not lethal and certainly not immediately lethal. The purpose of using JHP is that it makes a larger hole and if you have to rely on circulatory system depletion to stop the assailants agression then a larger hole brings that on faster.

At best a JHP will expand and produce a large wound cavity, at worst its hollow gets plugged or closed off and fails to expand so it acts as a solid nose bullet. Solids never expand and have no opportunity to produce a larger wound cavity.
But the fmj will always penetrate deeper and in the case of 380 that might be more important than a slightly larger hole.

There is also the probability that the the fmj will go through and through leaving two holes in an organ, an entry and an exit hole.

wild cat mccane
April 26, 2012, 12:21 PM
"old grandpa" does use wet packs, but he has used them on all of the .380 hollow points.

Seeing how I have never seen a single person do the same on ballistic gel I think he has a lot to provide for helping people.

Defiantly better testing than someone who says a brand of bullet for no reason.

Dean1818
April 26, 2012, 12:59 PM
All things being equal


an accurate 32 cal wont do as much damage as a 380

An accurate shot with 380 isnt going to do as much damage as a 38+

A 38+p is similar but isnt going to do as much damage as a 9mm +p

A 9mm +p. < 40

A 40 < 45

And so on.....

I think many people on the board believe that if they need to use their ccw they will
Put all thier shots in a one inch group.......just like their quarterly trip to the range with 50 rounds shooting at stationary paper at 5 yards.


I practice, with moving around and shooting. I shoot with many different ccw holders
I rarely see anyone, while moving, stay in a one inch group.


If you are the guy that can hit a one inch circle with a 22, under stress, consistently,
Than you are probably set.

I am not that guy

If you add stress to a situation, will you become more accurate or less?

I may be different, but i believe my groups will open up some.

With this in mind, i believe I need a caliber that puts the biggest holes possible, which for me is a 45, though i do trust my 9mm as enough when i cant carry the 45.

Especially with the awesome corbon dpx or hst rounds. (i did my own backyard test with wetpack and denim which was eye opening)

A near miss for a 45 is Much better than a near miss with a 380
IMHO

Accuracy IS king, but there is difference in performance between bullet calibers and manufacturers

What if you only get one shot? (before the BG sends a few back?)

If we were honest, and we knew a threat was coming to your house and you had a choice between a 45 and a 380 to pick up...... Which would you really pick up?

Motownfire
April 26, 2012, 03:40 PM
I would pick up my Remington 870 LOL ;)

kokapelli
April 26, 2012, 04:50 PM
I would pick up my Remington 870 LOL ;)
Too bad it won't fit in your pocket-LOL

Dean1818
April 26, 2012, 05:20 PM
I would pick up my Remington 870 LOL ;)
Me too......

snakeman
April 26, 2012, 05:24 PM
It's whatever you have in your gun at the time.

dfsixstring
August 1, 2012, 02:37 PM
I know that the macho side of all of us wants to say that we want a round that will drop a person in their tracks with a single shot, but what about the aftermath of this action? I saw the CNN video of the Sr. Citizen that thwarted an armed robbery by two thugs with his little .380. While his actions seemed a bit reckless, he "stopped" the attackers. I also think about this Travon Martin case in FL. I bet Zimmernan wished he could have just "stopped" Travon instead of killing him. Was he right? Was he wrong - sadly, I fear the truth will be suppressed by political correctness.

In truth, none of us know what we're going to do until we're in that situation. I'm a prior military guy and have been trained on everything up to a 40mm M203 grenade launcher. While overseas, I was an M60 gunner running perimeter security for the post in an armored track. I've always said that I have no compunction over shooting to kill, if the situation warranted it - and while I'm pondering it here, given my training and my resolve to protect my family, I will do what is necessary when/if that time comes.

I just wanted to throw this out there because it seems that this post has become a bit of a frenzy of shoot to kill. In the uneasy time we're all in right now - I'd hate for our words to be mistaken or misused. Food for thought.

jrdolall
August 1, 2012, 02:53 PM
Mt P3AT has been 100% dependable with every jhp i have tried. They have all been basically equal in accuracy and penetration as far as I can tell.

ATLDave
August 1, 2012, 03:49 PM
Exactly right, dfsixstring. The truly perfect SD round would instantly knock an assailant unconscious 100% of the time and do no other damage. Since that hasn't yet been invented, those wishing to defend themselves are stuck trying to find a projectile that will do enough damage to cause immediate incapacitation. That's the legitimate goal... not "lethality," although many of the things that lead to incapacitation also lead to a likelihood of death or permanent injury.

The_Armed_Therapist
August 1, 2012, 06:16 PM
I just read a forensics book about gunshot wounds and while in theory hollow points are more effective... in reality the author hasn't seen a single instance where the factor of hp vs fmj determined in wheather the person shot lived or died... the only issue was shot placement...

I'd like to suggest that the goal isn't to make more dead people, but to stop more people. It could possibly be measuring the same factor, or at least have a strong correlation, but they are at least theoretically different factors.

One_Jackal
August 1, 2012, 10:05 PM
I use FMJ ammo in all small caliber handguns. Most attackers will assume a blade stance. Meaning you don't get a straight shot into the chest. Another thing is we all tend to shoot where we are looking. If the attacker has a weapon you are focused on the weapon. Given that your focus is on the weapon there is a good chance you will shoot the attacker in the hand. A FMJ will penetrate the attackers hand/arm into the body cavity. The FBI didn't just snatch a random number from the air when they set 16" of penetration into ballistic gel as their standard. Not many handgun rounds will penetrate 16" of ballistic gelatin with hollow points.

gym
August 2, 2012, 01:47 PM
A lot of guys use golden sabre, or corbon powerball, my 380 shot a heavier bullet than my 9mm

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