In Vietnam war when ARMY or Marines when out on Patrol


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gmh1013
March 6, 2012, 12:46 AM
How many rounds (clips) did the average guy take and how many .45 clips
I have read 10 clips / 200 rounds and 2 /.45 clips?
Then I read some took as much as 20 clips? .....that would be some weight to carry.

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firesky101
March 6, 2012, 03:01 AM
Not sure, but I would be interested to know. I am certain it would depend on their job, and weapon carried.

cyclopsshooter
March 6, 2012, 03:03 AM
Well, in the movies I have never seen soldier wear more than one mag pouch holding two clipazines.

memphisjim
March 6, 2012, 03:14 AM
this guy says 1500
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HdZ6WLrEnA&feature=relmfu

Rifleman 173
March 6, 2012, 03:15 AM
On short patrols, guys in my unit carried about 20+ rifle magazines if they had M-16 rifles. If they lugged a heavier sniper rifle, they carried about 12 magazines. Anybody who had a .45 caliber pistol generally only had 2 magazines on them: 2 in a pouch and 1 in the pistol.

If contact were almost guaranteed, you carried as many as you could lug on you, in ammo cans and in bandoleers. We'd carry them in ammo cans and then put them on the perimeter when we got back to our base perimeter so as not to have to unload them. If we were in our perimeter when we got hit, we'd used our ammo cans of magazines first and then use what we had on our person as a last resort. So the number of magazines and ways to use magazines were explained to new guys coming into the platoon when they got there.

451 Detonics
March 6, 2012, 04:58 AM
I go with Webster's for the definition...

2clip
noun
Definition of CLIP
1
: any of various devices that grip, clasp, or hook
2
: a device to hold cartridges for charging the magazines of some rifles; also : a magazine from which ammunition is fed into the chamber of a firearm

There was no set amount of ammo to be carried, some troops went with the minimum they could to cut back on weight, other would fill not only pouches but would also carry one or 2 bandoleers of boxed ammo or charged magazines in an empty gas mask bag.

Also handguns were not general issue to enlisted grunts, many didn't carry one.

eastbank
March 6, 2012, 06:19 AM
never enough. eastbank.

ultradoc
March 6, 2012, 08:07 AM
I would say it would be the squad-patrol leaders call.

Skyshot
March 6, 2012, 08:16 AM
What about that poor SOB that carried an M-60?:mad:

GBExpat
March 6, 2012, 08:50 AM
OP: Thanks, I found your question to be interesting...

... and Rifleman 173's answer to very informative.

On short patrols, guys in my unit carried about 20+ rifle magazines if they had M-16 rifles. If they lugged a heavier sniper rifle, they carried about 12 magazines. Anybody who had a .45 caliber pistol generally only had 2 magazines on them: 2 in a pouch and 1 in the pistol.

If contact were almost guaranteed, you carried as many as you could lug on you, in ammo cans and in bandoleers. We'd carry them in ammo cans and then put them on the perimeter when we got back to our base perimeter so as not to have to unload them. If we were in our perimeter when we got hit, we'd used our ammo cans of magazines first and then use what we had on our person as a last resort. So the number of magazines and ways to use magazines were explained to new guys coming into the platoon when they got there.

I was one of the lucky ones who did not have to go to Vietnam.

Rifleman 173, thank you for your service!

bikerdoc
March 6, 2012, 08:55 AM
I was a medic with 3/187 101st 68-69. Carried a 45 with 4 mags.

Got an M 1 carbine from the ARVN and caried 10 mags for a while. Could always pick up a 16 unfortunately. Had a couple mags and some extra grenades (frag and smoke) in a gas mask bag.

Humping weight will wear you out in jungle heat.

Between the medic bag,and ruck filled with extra canteens (Dumb butts get dehydrated quickly) c -rats, (The canned peaches was my best medicine :) socks (People take care of your feet!) and all the other stuff, 60 lbs was not unusual.
Depending on the mission. Maybe a extra radio battery, or a mortar round, or a belt for the 60, a claymore for NDP (night defensive position)

Sorry. Not much help, everybodies war was different, generally my guys carried at least one, most carried 2 bandoleers.

Off topic - but I must say, my guys watched out for me, as much as I watched out for them.
R I P to all we left behind, Doc will never forget you.

ObsidianOne
March 6, 2012, 09:30 AM
Clips are used to load magazines. Magazines hold ammunition and are used to provide ammo to the firearm.
Symantics aside, It depends, as others have said, on what weapon they were carrying. Are you referring to the M-16? And guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but 30 round mags weren't used in Vietnam, correct? Or were they scarce?

Gordon
March 6, 2012, 09:39 AM
I had varied duties because as a 97B /04b4L80 I served as courier while going between s2s. I allways had my issued Ithaca 1911a1 and at least 2 extra mags on me. When I was assigned to evaluate and inventory the freshly taken Hamburger Hill in the Ashau I managed to bring 20 M-14 mags with the 14 issued me but rarely taken anywhere. I was coptered in with only a few hundred yards to climb up over the 105 battery that was put in on the eastern saddle of that bloody hill, the western face where I was overlooking faced Injun country :eek:
. I went on a few LRRP missions in I corp and carried the 1911a1 with 4 mags extra and explosives devices along with the electronic stuff in my pack. Frankly I intended to "do " myself if captured on one of those jaunts!:what:

RUT
March 6, 2012, 09:44 AM
>>What about that poor SOB that carried an M-60?<<

I did for a while, but luckily not over in the rice paddies. ;)

AirForceShooter
March 6, 2012, 09:50 AM
20 magazines and maybe one bandoleer for the M-16.
For the Fal 12 magazines.
Knife and 1911 with 2 extra mags.
And the best weapon your could ever have. A Radio.
Arty, Air Armor.

And WATER. As much as you could carry

AFS

Chopdoktor
March 6, 2012, 10:01 AM
A cousin of mine was the Army '60 gunner, and when he wasn't carrying it, he was carrying an M14 with 20 mags, jungle-taped together by 2's, so 5 pairs of jungle-taped mags on both sides of his load-bearing vest, with one taped mag in the rifle, so there's 440 total.

This is a big guy, though... even in his late 60's, he is a good 6'4 in height. He said it felt like they got ambushed on every patrol they went on, and as much as he hated lugging the M60, he sure felt safer behind its firepower.

Rifleman 173
March 6, 2012, 10:35 AM
M-60 guys normally had about a 25 round "starter belt" when they moved. Once shooting began they'd take a whole belt of linked ammo and start to rock and roll in short bursts.

I always loved the way the Army portrayed things. If you read the material of the day, the Army always said that an M-60 team consisted of the gunner, an assistant gunner and an ammo bearer. In reality, in combat, you had a lone man lugging the M-60 by himself. Other guys pitched in and carried ammo for him but there was no asst. gunner and no ammo bearer.

The last platoon I was in had a captured enemy machinegun that we used like it was ours. We didn't care because it gave us 3 machineguns to bring to bear on targets. We had the one gun assigned to our platoon. We had the one gun that had been stolen from another unit. And we had the enemy gun too.

There was only one night when we brought all 3 machineguns to bear on the enemy but it amazed me. The enemy got overconfident and they thought that they had us nailed. That was until they got to the bottom level of our perimeter barbed wire. We had learned that when our South Vietnamese "allies" took off that meant we were going to get hit that night. Sure enough, the South Vietnamese had taken off and left the 7 of us Americans behind without so much as a warning. The enemy came up the slope of the hill we were on, got to the bottom strand of our barbed wire and we hit them hard. We set off claymores and then cur loose with slap flares and the 3 machineguns all at once. We ground those guys into hamburger. They couldn't get away from us fast enough. The next day the South Vietnamese came back all amazed that we were all alive because the rumor had been spread about "all the dead Americans." Funny thing was that none of us were even slightly injured at all. Oh, well.

C-grunt
March 6, 2012, 11:00 AM
My friends uncle was there for several years and carried a M14 most of the time. He told us he carried at least 10 magazines with him.

Ive always thought the standard load for a rifleman seemed low. Today its 210 rounds for the M16. I always had 12 mags on me and one in the gun.

Vlad357
March 6, 2012, 11:18 AM
With the M16 and the Thumper, as much as we could carry, depending of course where and how long we thought we would be out.

Byron
March 6, 2012, 11:19 AM
I was with Delta company,3/8th Inf,4th Inf Div 68-69.Our patrols lasted up to 4 or 5 days. I carried 20+ loaded magazines(18 rounds per mag)one in the rifle and about 200+ loose rounds.I had a bandolier about my waist which was 7 magazines as I recall. We did not have 45's in my battalion.It would have been nice for the grenadier to have one as the 79 was a single shot weapon. When the 79 was carried on patrol,approximately 60 HE rounds were carried in a claymore bag.The vest held 10 it seemed but I may be off on that.A bandolier of 6 cannister rounds was carried and usually one in the 79 and for some reason,a cannister round was in the helmet band. With the company as it moved, the laod was heavier.

eastbank
March 6, 2012, 11:55 AM
the war is long gone,but the images that stay with me are of very young men with pimples carrying heavy loads,being gualed between the legs and armpits from the salt pills we were forced to take, bugs,snakes,god damn arvn along wth heat and smells that would turn a buzzard and the eturnal fear that you may be killed at any time. i carried all the ammo that i could move with and i threw it away when it was not needed.there were good times,but they are not remembered as much as the bad times. eastbank.

nathan
March 6, 2012, 12:07 PM
While the enemy only carried four mags. VC s use the three cell CHicom AK chest rig. SO that makes it 120 rds total. A few chicom grenades and what not. What a big difference. At the side is their lunch meal, white steamed rice and dry fish and of course a little bottle of Nuoc Nam (fish sauce).

Byron
March 6, 2012, 12:08 PM
I cannot fathom throwing ammunition away.That would have been a court martial offense in my company.

GunnyUSMC
March 6, 2012, 12:28 PM
Like others said, it would depend on the mission and the type of unit. A friend of mine was there in the Corps and said that standard issue was six magazines, but he would carry as many as he could and always had one or two bandolier.

In Desert Storm I carried nine 30 round magazines, two mixed with tracers, Extra box of 20 tracers in my butt pack and an exrta bandolier. Also carried 4lbs of C4, blasting caps and 2 M67 frags. I was a section leader for a Dragoon platoon. My dragoon gunners carried seven 30 round magazine and the Dragoon missle. The A gunner carried seven 30 round mags and two bandolier, along with C4 blasting caps and frags. If they had extra mags, they carried them.

Sky
March 6, 2012, 12:56 PM
Frankly I intended to "do " myself if captured on one of those jaunts!

It did not take long to figure that out and was a common spoken (anticipated) deed after hearing and seeing what happened to many of our captured.

There were hot 'free fire zones' and more secure zones as briefed by S2. If it was a known hot zone everyone carried a little extra but the range of the hump ( how far u had to carry your burden) had a something to do with it as well.

fpgt72
March 6, 2012, 01:29 PM
Before my uncle passed away he finally told some stories, was in Vietnam in 62-63, then went to Germany in 64 where he learned romanian, then back to the states in 65, and when my cousin was born in 66 he got out.

He told me he never carried the M14 or the M16, he had a M2 carbine or AK47, hated the M2.

Back to your question he told me he carried 1200 rounds for the M2 and did not say about the AK.....he never would talk about what he did over there....but I do know enough to know that to carry sterile weapons he had to be doing some sneeky stuff.

chevy_dmax
March 6, 2012, 01:38 PM
Thank you all for service and for sharing.

Bill.

nathan
March 6, 2012, 01:49 PM
After reading this it make me want to buy more AK 74 mags, i only have five for now and plenty of strippers. Oh well maybe four more if i can find a good deal and a East German rain camou pouch so i can stash it with strippers. You can never have enough ammo and mags , just more of them . Its food for the gun .
LOL

Ranger30-06
March 6, 2012, 01:55 PM
I agree Nathan! Never have I felt so undergunned than after reading this thread! I try to keep 3-6 mags per gun, and in reality that's only ~65 rounds of ammo for my AR-15 and 38 rounds for my Saiga .308. I also keep 2 mags for my handgun, a S&W 4046 (18 rounds). I need to do some stocking here...

dcarch
March 6, 2012, 02:31 PM
Again, thank you all for your service to our country.

GunnyUSMC
March 6, 2012, 02:31 PM
Ranger30-06 and nathan
You have to look at this topic in the right light. Combat loads are carried by men who go out looking for a fight or know that they have a good chance of getting in one. When you run out of ammo in a gun fight, your no longer in a gun fight, but if the other guy still has ammo, he is still in the gun fight.

At work I carry 46 rounds of 40 S&W ammo, three 15 round mags and one in the chamber.
At home I have a few loaded handguns, 3 autos (one mag each) and 2 revolvers. And one loded mag for my AR.
When out and about on my day off I carry one loaded mag in the gun.

When at work I know something can happen and I'm ready for a fight, but when at home or out and about, I am not looking for a fight. I just need enough to protect my self or to get out of the area if need be.

Hangingrock
March 6, 2012, 02:35 PM
As part of an FO/AO team my issued weapon was a 1911-A1. The standard issue of the time was (3) magazines. I acquired (2) addition magazines for a total of (5). Not standard but issued an M-97 Winchester Pump-Shotgun. The 12Ga shells I carried in M-14 magazine pouches. My job wasn’t a shooter as such but rather laying down artillery fire.

lowerunit411
March 6, 2012, 03:17 PM
i saw Nam from a few hundred feet to few thousand feet in altitude and usually in advance of the guys on terra firma, but ocassionally not. I carried a K frame Smith predominately.

BBQLS1
March 6, 2012, 04:03 PM
For all that did, Thank You for your service.

HarcyPervin
March 6, 2012, 05:10 PM
For all that did, Thank You for your service.

+1,000,000

These stories and tidbits of information, when shared, are such an amazing insight into a world and experiences that I have no experience in, but an infinite amount of respect for. Thank you to those who have served and who are serving.

SharpsDressedMan
March 6, 2012, 05:24 PM
I just talked about ammo load with my long time friend, who was Army infrantry, and quite active in 69-70....bronze star recipient. He carried his 20rd mags loaded and in the cloth bandoliers the ammo came in, which was 7 pockets, or 140 rds each. He carried two, slung over each shoulder, across his chest, and carried two more just like them in his buttpack. That was 280rds ready to go, with 20 in the gun, and another 280 available in his pack. He said there were a few firefights where he had to get into the ammo carried in the buttpack, but only a few times, and he never ran dry. He also said that it was common practice to carry first aid and other useful things in the regular ammo pouches on the belt, but that access and quantity of loaded mags were faster and lighter using the cloth bandoliers. Apparently, 30rd mags were not yet that common in use, or they just didn't like them.

CmdrSlander
March 6, 2012, 06:49 PM
i saw Nam from a few hundred feet to few thousand feet in altitude and usually in advance of the guys on terra firma

What did you fly, and what caliber was that Smith?

jaysouth
March 6, 2012, 07:05 PM
When we were on operation, it could last months before we were in a base camp. Outside the wire, anyone carrying an M16 carried at least 20x20 round mags. Some carried 30. Basic load for an m-60 was several thousand rounds carried in bags and ammon cans. No pancho via style over the shoulder bandoleers. Thumper bunnies carried 40 HE and an assortment of smoke and flechette. Each man except for grenadiers carried 4 frag grenades, a trip flare, a claymore mine and a hand held star cluster flare. Radio operators carried assorted smoke grenades and extra batteries. 3-4 LAWS were carried in each squad with them being rotated daily.

No 1911s were carried by our unit except brand new lts. After a few weeks, they sent theirs back to the base camp. The weight of a .45 and accessories was made up for by carrying extra frags and mags. The .45 was held in universal low esteem for it's excessive daily maintenance, lack of accuracy and lack of dependablility. Once the leather holsters got wet, they stayed that way for months resulting in a couple of extra pounds weight and the nightmare of keeping rust off any .45 carried in it.

In addition to our basic load of arms and ammo, we had a basic load of shovels, entrenching tools, and machetes. Additionally, a couple of demo kits were carried in rotation as well as a chain saw and a can of gasoline. It seems like there were a couple axes rotated between platoons every day.

On occasion, we would also be burdened with mortars, telephones, aiming stakes, aiming circles, mortar rounds and a couple of reels of wire.

I can't remember when we humped over a hundred yards on level ground. The rest of the time was in triple canopy jungle going straight up and down hill. Try sleeping on a 50% grade by roping off to a tree to keep from sliding down the hill.

lowerunit411
March 6, 2012, 07:08 PM
F4 Phantom lls primarily. plain jane .38

dap22
March 6, 2012, 07:16 PM
Our dustoff unit was busy many nights in Vietnam and our efficiency was often enhanced as we'd come and go fully loaded both ways. Inbound with casualties and often outbound with resupply, most often M60 barrels and as much armamen as we could load on board. Sorry to waiver from the purpose of the thread......it just got my attention. Our observation of the Geneva Convention was equal to our enemies I suppose you'd have to say. Hopefully the statute of limitations has expired:)

Pilot
March 6, 2012, 07:17 PM
F4 Phantom lls primarily. plain jane .38


Front or back seat? Either way you guys had GUTS.

lowerunit411
March 6, 2012, 07:25 PM
front seat....fine line between guts and stupidity:)

joed
March 6, 2012, 07:37 PM
On short patrols, guys in my unit carried about 20+ rifle magazines if they had M-16 rifles. If they lugged a heavier sniper rifle, they carried about 12 magazines. Anybody who had a .45 caliber pistol generally only had 2 magazines on them: 2 in a pouch and 1 in the pistol.

If contact were almost guaranteed, you carried as many as you could lug on you, in ammo cans and in bandoleers. We'd carry them in ammo cans and then put them on the perimeter when we got back to our base perimeter so as not to have to unload them. If we were in our perimeter when we got hit, we'd used our ammo cans of magazines first and then use what we had on our person as a last resort. So the number of magazines and ways to use magazines were explained to new guys coming into the platoon when they got there.
From what I saw about 10 magazines for the short patrols. I never saw long patrols in my line of work.

The only time you have to much ammo is when your house is on fire.

joed
March 6, 2012, 07:47 PM
i saw Nam from a few hundred feet to few thousand feet in altitude and usually in advance of the guys on terra firma, but ocassionally not. I carried a K frame Smith predominately.
Exact same here. I never had to lug much around at all or walk very far. I thank god I had a good life in Vietnam.

I also never saw a 30 round magazine while I was there between 69 and 70.

JR47
March 6, 2012, 07:49 PM
In 1966, the official weapon was still the M14 rifle. It was issued with five magazines, in the wrapper.

I carried two double-pouches (total of eight mags ) on my belt, one more (double) in/on my ruck, and one in the gun.

We did a lot of ambush work, and had to keep enough ammo to stay ahead of the Battalion that we ambushed. Intelligence always seemed to be underwhelming in accuracy. In that instance, there were "only scattered patrols", "ripe for the picking". Uh-huh.:)

Schutzen
March 6, 2012, 07:57 PM
20 mags, a double basic load of 5.56 (400 rdsX2), plus one can of 7.62 belted or 1 81mm motar rd or 3 claymores or 6 rds of 40mm

2 canteens with addition halizone tabs, 3-5 days rations (LURPS if you could get them, stripped C's if you couldn't)

Now most of the time you couldn't get all the stuff you were suposed to carry, but if you could.

friscolatchi
March 6, 2012, 08:06 PM
I can't read these posts without getting teary eyed. I missed service by 1 year. I have great admiration and respect for you all Vietman Vets. My cousin was killed there in 69. God bless you all.

gmh1013
March 6, 2012, 08:06 PM
My older brother flew in the 504 tatical air support group (0-1A) and was shot down after 7 months...breaking his right leg in 2 places and fractured wrist, jaw etc.
and spent 51 days in a Hospital.
He only had a .45, flare gun...and later carried a Winchester pump with him
on missions. he said he only fired one shot in the time he was there after he was shot down....he said he could not fire the shotgun and could only shoot the .45 .....left handed.....and he is right handed.
In 2002 he died from Leukemia from what he thought was exposed to Agent Orange....having to fly through the stuff to make sure it was dropping where it was suppose to.

MuleRyder
March 6, 2012, 08:26 PM
For all who served...Thank You for all you have done to protect out freedom...God Bless

Vern Humphrey
March 6, 2012, 08:59 PM
The standard basic load was 210 rounds -- three 30-round magazines in each of two magazine pouches on the LBE, and one 30-round magazine in the rifle. On operations (as distingushed from patrols) troops often carried one or two 50 round bandoliers, ready to load into magazines as they emptied them.

rcmodel
March 6, 2012, 09:12 PM
Vern, thanks for that reply.

I wasn't there, and I know you was.
But as an NCO, that would be the load I would expect to see in late 1960's army I was in, unless a major fight was in the cards and known beforehand.

I know a LBE with that mag load, a weapon, a steel pot, two canteens, a couple or four M-60 belts for the gun, and perhaps a couple of 81 morter rounds for the tube was all I cared to hump stateside in 115 degree weather if I could help it.

Might as well die in a firefight from running out of ammo as die from dehydration and heat stroke before the fight gets to it, maybe.

rc

CmdrSlander
March 6, 2012, 09:14 PM
F4 Phantom lls primarily. plain jane .38


Cool, I believe I have one of those in the collection.
http://i41.tinypic.com/35mkxmu.jpg

Gordon
March 6, 2012, 09:34 PM
"The .45 was held in universal low esteem for it's excessive daily maintenance, lack of accuracy and lack of dependablility. "
Not in the 101st did we feel that! The gun was coveted by most grunts as only senior NCOs, Corpsmen, and officers were issued them! Alot of issued (to trac guys) and non issued Grease guns around too and for a while I tried one of those but yes it like the SG is of limited use out side of ambush and jungle creeping! In paddies (the South Corp zones mostly) you want a rifle and the 16 was about perfect if you couldn't get an M-14!
The only confirmed kill I had was with my 1911 when a sapper tried to over run the TOC during a motar barrage. He was being shot at by the few that weren't hiding in the bunkers with their eyes closed, (a Nam joke!) but he ran by my bunker that was 1 door from TOC and got three 230 grain ball loads + a finisher. He was unable to grab the ring on the string which would have set off his vest thanks to the old undependable 1911!

Coop45
March 6, 2012, 09:35 PM
Marine rifle platoon 67/68

Everyone 200 rds 556
1 60mm mortar round
hand grenades
smoke grenades
c-4

Fire team
100 rds M-60 rds
LAW
Claymore

Blooker man
50 rds 40mm ammo instead of 556

Radiomen
same as everyone ammo/mortar rd/grenades/smoke
PRC25
extra battery
whip antenna

Attached weapons
M-60's, 3.5 Rockets

M-60 gunner
gun 100 rds

a gunner
m-16 200
200 rd M-60 ammo

3.5 tubeman
tube
45

Humper
M16 200 rds
4 rds 3.5 rockets

rcmodel
March 6, 2012, 09:36 PM
"The .45 was held in universal low esteem for it's excessive daily maintenance, lack of accuracy and lack of dependablility. "
Maybe by the other army.
Certainly not the U.S. Army one I was in.

rc

Coop45
March 6, 2012, 09:44 PM
After the ammo runs out there are just k-bars and entrenching tools to kill the enemy and take his weapons..

My preference was 400 rd in magazines and 600 rds all carried in bandoleers.

Ohio Gun Guy
March 6, 2012, 09:47 PM
Thanks to all the veterans here, great information.


WELCOME HOME!

jaysouth
March 6, 2012, 09:59 PM
I have a high opinion of the 1911s in various calibers that I own today, but in 1966, the WWII vintage .45s we had in our unit were just flat worn out from daily disassembly and cleaning. The finish was worn off and rusted after more than a few minutes in a wet holster. They were in a wet leather holster for 23 1/2 hours daily. The other half hour was spend rubbing off the nightly accumulation of rust. they did not protect you against the things that were killing and maiming your mates. They did not deter or offer any protection against land mines, mortar rounds or machine guns.

By 1967, the 1911s that we brought over in 1965 were totally shot. They were not dependable. Nor had there been a documented killing of an enemy soldier by one. In fact we had wounded and killed more GIs with NDs than casualties inflicted on the enemy. The division CG decided that the 1911 was to be retired at the company level. More pressing items were needed for our missions. Not a single grunt, NCO or officer objected.

CmdrSlander
March 6, 2012, 10:03 PM
I can see how even a gun as fine as the M1911 could have problems in those conditions. As an aside, it is interesting that the USMC still uses pre WWII vintage M1911 frames for MEU(SOC) pistols, some have over 500,000 rounds to their credit. The oldest M1911 still in service(?) (last spotted in Iraq a few years ago) was produced in 1923, the stories it could tell :eek:.

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/album82/acb.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn216/cxl17/25s5zrs.jpg

trex1310
March 6, 2012, 11:07 PM
If memory serves me correctly we generally waited on our
platoon sergeant to tell us how much ammo to carry. Of course
you could always carry more, which most did. The actual
number of magazines (20 round) varied from anywhere from 5
to 20 (7 mags in pouches per bandolier). Personal magazines
were loaded from loose ammo in cans during down time.

Squad ammo was on bandoliers and carried in cans. The guys on
shotgun carried about 50 rounds. The M-60 guy usually had an
assistant gunner and 2 ammo carriers. Keep in mind that all of
these things were subject to change depending on situation,
terrain, casualties. The M-60 guy was usually one of the first
to get hit. Grunts (rifleman in the Army) did not carry handguns.
I should clarify, Army issued handguns. I think, for a normal op in
Indian country, we carried about 80 - 90 pounds of rifle, ammo,
claymore mine w/clacker+50' wire, trip flares, 3-5 frag grenades,
1 smoke grenade, entrenching tool, bayonet, sleeping bag, poncho,
C-ration cans (2-3 days worth), 4-5 canteens of water, helmet,
helmet liner, extra socks, extra T-shirt, extra shorts, machete,
cigarettes, lighter, condoms and whatever else you didn't mind
humping thru some of the worst country on the planet.

I'm sure I left out some things it's been 40+ years and my memory
has deterioated along with the rest of me. A sniper's bullet in the
foot ended my career as a rifleman. At least it wasn't in my head.

Gordon
March 6, 2012, 11:32 PM
Well it DOES say on patrol, not perimeter guard duty nor ambush duty so for thatthe guys I saw all had two 7 mag bandoliers with 20s loaded down to 19 each and what ever more in the outer pockets of the ALICE pack. At least 2 grenades most likely 4 plus a smoke grenade and a couple parachute flares for illumination.
On perimeter or most Ambushes I wanted something like this:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/049.jpg

with at least 15 or more mags loaded 19 each (dig those 30s I bought a bunch of in the 80s to defend my perimeter) :D

But like I said when I went out on cross border or ho chi minh trail inserts for super secret seismic intrusion radio spikes or land line taps guarded by these LRRPS:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/005-8.jpg :what:

I only carried one of these:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i203/gordonhulme/practicalstuff048.jpg :)
And the ever present 8" Randal #1 knife,
with a total of 5 fully loaded mags , some c-4 peel and stick deta sheets on my pack and a couple of grenades , I also had a small classified VHF radio tuneable to various frequencies and an extra battery for it. Of course there was the Radio man , this was different !;)
I carried an Ithaca Shotgun (that was NOT issue as it said LAPD on it !) on the second tour and was issued an m-16 which stayed in the AVN company I stayed at in Phu Bai when not out and around.

MutinousDoug
March 6, 2012, 11:56 PM
As I recall:
Two bandoliers with 7 magazines each across the shoulders. Two magazine pouches on the (utility) pistol belt each with 3 magazines and one in the M-16. Each magazine carried 18 rounds. Two frags, two smoke grenades, two star flares and two trip flares. I carried 3 two qt canteens, a 5 qt canteen and a single one qt canteen for 3 gallons of water. That was usually enough for a three day log. I carried the PRC-25 radio and spare battery so I didn't carry claymores or the mortar rounds the rest of the platoon carried when we carried the 81 mm tube. One guy carried the tube, another carried the bipod, another carried the baseplate and a fourth carried the plotting board, sights and aiming stakes. Everyone else in the platoon carried 2 mortar rounds in addition to the basic load. When we operated in triple canopy, the platoon carried two M-60's instead of the tube and everybody carried spare linked 7.62 either in cans or over our shoulders. I don't remember us carrying LAWs but there were 6-8 in the other platoons. Someone in the mortar platoon carried a pump shotgun with #3 buck that we'd occasionally take out on patrol, and I think we had a .45ACP but nobody thought much of it.
A 500 yd march after taking log made for a long hump. In a squad patrol, where we could leave our junk behind with the company, we could cover more ground.
Anyway: "C" 5/7th Cav 1970 FTW

Coop45
March 7, 2012, 12:21 AM
Even our Corpsmen carried and M-16.

AK_Maine_iac
March 7, 2012, 01:59 AM
1969-70 Thanks to the draft. I am surprised we are still alive after being made to eat all those white M&M's (salt Tabs) I t seamed like a hand full before each meal. If you got to eat. Some of the old C-rats where good.:barf: The green eggs & Ham :barf:
As many mags for the M14 that i could carry or drag. Never issued a 1911a1. Picked a lot of things up off the ground at times.

flyskater
March 7, 2012, 02:21 AM
I heard the guy from call of duty carries like 10 guns, some rocket launcher, and several thousand rounds of ammo and rockets. Even my 1 ton pickup cant carry that much.

will11
March 7, 2012, 02:32 AM
Well in 1967 I learned to carry a couple of bands of mags plus one in the rifle. But what I really learned was the water thing was huge. I can go without eating but the water thing was something else. Having plenty of ammo is fine but as far as weight is concerned and it is a big concern water is of the utmost importance. Ether having it or being able to sterialize it. God Bless America. Will

jaysouth
March 7, 2012, 07:21 AM
quote: "I can see how even a gun as fine as the M1911 could have problems in those conditions. As an aside, it is interesting that the USMC still uses pre WWII vintage M1911 frames for MEU(SOC) pistols, some have over 500,000 rounds to their credit. The oldest M1911 still in service(?) (last spotted in Iraq a few years ago) was produced in 1923, the stories it could tell".

Number one: "stories it could tell", remember that no small arms were returned to the US that saw action in Europe or the Pacific, unless they were stolen by a GI. The small arms that went to the Pacific were mostly dumped at sea. The remaining ones were those carried by occupation troops. Those wound up in Korea and are still there or else destroyed. Those going to ETO were warehoused after VE day and doled out to allied armies and police. Most were eventually destroyed. All the small arms we took to VN are still there in warehouses carefully tended by our former enemies. '

If someone hands you a 1911 and says "it stormed the beaches at XXXXXXXXXXXXXX." You are looking at a stolen gun or hearing a "sea story".

Number two: The .45s had been field stripped and cleaned every day for over two years, carried in a wet holster every day, and were rack grade issues when issued. What the marines are reputed to carry are stripped at the arsenal level of maintenance and rebuilt and refinished.

Number three: We suffered more friendly fire casualties from .45s than we inflicted on the enemy. A responsible adult looked at the totality of the situation and made a decision that was very popular with the folks who had boots in the jungle.

lemaymiami
March 7, 2012, 08:26 AM
I was never a combat trooper (and it was freak out time when I found I'd been assigned to the 101st in January of 1971...). The war was beginning to wind down then, but you still got shot at every now and then - even in rear areas where I was. The standard bandolier for the 16 then was cloth and held ten standard mags. The guys I saw gearing up to go back into the bush were humping incredible amounts of gear.... Add ammo and it didn't look like anything I'd volunteer for (remember, only one in seven over there were actual fighters - everyone else was support). Can't tell you how glad I was when that big bird took me out of there at the end of a short tour. Where I was there were serious racial problems (and fraggings and shootings to go along with it) and terrible amounts of open drug use (china white, 97% pure, straight from Uncle Ho's victory garden...). I was actually in one of the first groups that were required to take a urinalysis under armed guard to be able to leave Vietnam (they were trying to I.D. folks with habits to clean them up before allowing them to come home....). That's not something you're ever likely to forget. My Dad, a career Army officer, did two tours there. I'm not sure he believed me when I told him how badly things were going where I was...

Hangingrock
March 7, 2012, 08:56 AM
It’s not my intent to argumentative but I was issued a 1911A1. I can’t say old it was or how used it was but then the Marine Corps of that period never tended to throw out anything.

The weapon functioned and no individual that I know of in our outfit shoot themselves with one. My job wasn’t a shooter unless it was absolutely necessary but rather a team member putting artillery fire on target.

Did I use the 1911A1 yes but no one was in the mood for taking pictures for documentation purposes. It wasn’t like deer hunting back home.

bikerdoc
March 7, 2012, 09:24 AM
Gordon said,

Not in the 101st did we feel that! The gun was coveted by most grunts as only senior NCOs, Corpsmen, and officers were issued them!

I agree.

I think our paths may have crossed.

Today, 09:26 AM #68
lemaymiami

Your right

I went in in 66 with the intent to do 20. Got out in 70 as the lack of leadership, discipline, and low morale, and the inpending RIF, made the 1970 army a shell of what it was in 66.

Even our Corpsmen carried and M-16.


That was the schizophrenic part of being a medic, upon contact I was just another rifleman, old adage - return fire, supress fire, gain fire superioity, all while trying to take care of my guys. Even more schizo was patching up an NVA prisoner I may have shot for the S2 boys.
And thanks to the dust off pilot who came in and got my guys out. They had steel gonads.

lowerunit411
March 7, 2012, 09:27 AM
CmdrSlander, theres something wrong with your little F4 there. First of all there are no parts hanging off of it or attached by loose wires, and theres a funny name on the side of it? ahh thats ok...they get their pay from the Dept of the Navy so its all good!

Vern Humphrey
March 7, 2012, 09:48 AM
Vern, thanks for that reply.

I wasn't there, and I know you was.
But as an NCO, that would be the load I would expect to see in late 1960's army I was in, unless a major fight was in the cards and known beforehand.

I know a LBE with that mag load, a weapon, a steel pot, two canteens, a couple or four M-60 belts for the gun, and perhaps a couple of 81 morter rounds for the tube was all I cared to hump stateside in 115 degree weather if I could help it.

Might as well die in a firefight from running out of ammo as die from dehydration and heat stroke before the fight gets to it, maybe.
Now you're getting into my comments to the boys at Benning when the M249 was inthe works:

"So this new weapon is more powerful than the M16?"

"No, it uses the same cartridge."

"But it's more accurate?"

"Well, we're having a bit of a problem with that."

"But it's more reliable?

"Welllll . . . that's a problem too, but we'll work it out."

"But it's lighter, so you can carry more ammo?"

"Actually, it's heavier."

"Congratualtions! You've solved the problem of having too much ammo left when the fight is over.":D

Curator
March 7, 2012, 09:51 AM
III Corps area 1966-1967 Big Red One: My squad of 12 : 200 rounds of 5.56 each (10 magazines of 20 rounds) Everyone carried at least one additional 100 round belt of 7.62 for the M-60 crew. "Assistant gunner" on the M60 usually had 2 or 3 belts. My two M79 grenadiers carried 50, 50mm grenades (25 each in 2 pouches) plus 5 magazines (35 rounds) of .45ACP (2-2 magazine pouches and one in the handgun) Most also carried 4 "frag" grenades and one purple smoke grenade. Ambush patrols also carried an additional 6 ot 8 M18 claymore mines.

gmh1013
March 7, 2012, 11:07 AM
I wonder if the Iraq or Afghanistan guys today carry as much today as back then?
Members of both war we are forever in your debt for all the sacrifices you made.

Coop45
March 7, 2012, 11:47 AM
Gordon said,



I agree.

I think our paths may have crossed.

Today, 09:26 AM #68
lemaymiami

Your right

I went in in 66 with the intent to do 20. Got out in 70 as the lack of leadership, discipline, and low morale, and the inpending RIF, made the 1970 army a shell of what it was in 66.



That was the schizophrenic part of being a medic, upon contact I was just another rifleman, old adage - return fire, supress fire, gain fire superioity, all while trying to take care of my guys. Even more schizo was patching up an NVA prisoner I may have shot for the S2 boys.
And thanks to the dust off pilot who came in and got my guys out. They had steel gonads.
The really crazy thing was when Marines were eating dirt the Corpsman was up tending to the fallen. RIP HM/2 George Riordan 3/14/1968

joed
March 7, 2012, 12:07 PM
"The .45 was held in universal low esteem for it's excessive daily maintenance, lack of accuracy and lack of dependablility. "
Not in the 101st did we feel that! The gun was coveted by most grunts as only senior NCOs, Corpsmen, and officers were issued them! Alot of issued (to trac guys) and non issued Grease guns around too and for a while I tried one of those but yes it like the SG is of limited use out side of ambush and jungle creeping! In paddies (the South Corp zones mostly) you want a rifle and the 16 was about perfect if you couldn't get an M-14!
The only confirmed kill I had was with my 1911 when a sapper tried to over run the TOC during a motar barrage. He was being shot at by the few that weren't hiding in the bunkers with their eyes closed, (a Nam joke!) but he ran by my bunker that was 1 door from TOC and got three 230 grain ball loads + a finisher. He was unable to grab the ring on the string which would have set off his vest thanks to the old undependable 1911!
I was in the 101st. My first issue was a 1911, it was a miserable gun and I doubt that I could honestly hit anyone with it at 25 yards. When I started flying they took it away and issued a .38, believe me I was happy.

The 1911 I had in the service was so bad I would not own one until 8 years ago when a friend sold me a Kimber. World of difference.

Vern Humphrey
March 7, 2012, 12:09 PM
I wonder if the Iraq or Afghanistan guys today carry as much today as back then?
Members of both war we are forever in your debt for all the sacrifices you made.
Today's Infantryman carries an enormous load -- just the helmet and body armor are more than most want to carry. Factor in all the other stuff, and you're looking at 80 lbs + per man. There isn't much excess carrying capacity left.

Fortunately, today's infantrymen are much better shots than any previous generation, and are able to use what ammo they can carry with great effect.

fpgt72
March 7, 2012, 02:22 PM
Today's Infantryman carries an enormous load -- just the helmet and body armor are more than most want to carry. Factor in all the other stuff, and you're looking at 80 lbs + per man. There isn't much excess carrying capacity left.

Fortunately, today's infantrymen are much better shots than any previous generation, and are able to use what ammo they can carry with great effect.
Big problem as well...I know of two people that are getting an early out...against their will...because of back/knee/shoulder problems.

Seems the military wants them out before serious medical problems do happen.

Sorry to poo poo a great thread, but I had to bring this up.

Vern Humphrey
March 7, 2012, 02:27 PM
You're not poo pooing anything -- the modern infantryman is heavily overloaded. And yes, indeed, you have to expect a lot of back and joint injuries because of that.

trex1310
March 7, 2012, 03:00 PM
Fortunately, today's infantrymen are much better shots than any previous generation, and are able to use what ammo they can carry with great effect.

The equipment is better (optics) and the environment is different,
but much better shots, I don't think so. I was a great shot.
You could ask some of the VC/NVA troops if they weren't dead.

Vern Humphrey
March 7, 2012, 03:03 PM
The equipment is better (optics) and the environment is different,
but much better shots, I don't think so. I was a great shot.
You could ask some of the VC/NVA troops if they weren't dead.
But you weren't the average infantryman.

I had a lot of trouble with marksmanship, until I trained my company myself, and instituted a $50 fine for firing full auto.

dcarch
March 7, 2012, 03:07 PM
$50 was a lot of money back then too, right?

Vern Humphrey
March 7, 2012, 03:16 PM
You bet it was!!

rugerdude
March 7, 2012, 04:01 PM
In response to the questions about the load of the guys today....

1st Recon Battalion, U.S.M.C. Currently on my second visit to the fine nation of Afghanistan.

Average loadout varies greatly depending on what we're doing, but it's probably more standardized in the grunt battalions.

What I packed out recently, and keep in mind, I'm 5'10" and 163lbs:
Body armor (front, back, and side plates plus soft armor underneath that.): 35-40lbs with helmet

Weapon: M4A1 suppressed and Barrett M107 .50 cal. So there's 43lbs right there.

Ammo: 50 rounds in 5 mags for the .50 and 4 mags for the M4. About 20lbs.

Plus E-tool, 6qts of water (3 days worth in the winter, about 4 hours worth in the summer) radio battery, food and warming layers. 25lbs.

So that's over 100lbs of gear in all, but the SASR makes up a big part of that for me. Other guys find ways to weigh about the same though. Remember that the M240B is a few pounds heavier than the M-60, like someone said before they carry the vast majority of their own ammo too. We also have M32 grenade launchers, an M203 on almost every M4, and we still actually carry out a 60mm mortar sometimes and a LAW per team (9 guys).

Not every unit has to self sustain the way that we do though, and although loosely plowed fields and canals are a pain to walk through, the ground out here is quite flat.

I remember thinking on my first deployment that sometimes it felt like a Vietnam movie. I had an M4 (and later an M14) in my hands, with an M-72 LAW on my ruck, walking through rural farmland (plowed fields are the rice paddies of today) with Cobras and Hueys overhead. We actually requested napalm for one mission as well! No dice though : (

eastbank
March 7, 2012, 04:36 PM
you can,t shoot what you can,t see. i think the optic,s on todays GI rifles make a very big difference.i watched a man shoot at 300 yds with a ar-15 colt flat top reciever with a 20 inch medium weight barrel with a simple 3x9 leupold scope mounted and he did not miss a 10 inch gong,20 shots in a row. and he did it very quickly. if he had been in a good hide he could have killed 20 men as quick as they popped up. i,m glad they are issueing good optic,s to our men. eastbank.

jaysouth
March 7, 2012, 04:44 PM
It looks to me like the current day grunts are carrying double what we carried in VN. They have armor and helmets that weigh 40 pounds to start with. Then they mule eveything on top of that.

fpgt72
March 7, 2012, 05:30 PM
you can,t shoot what you can,t see. i think the optic,s on todays GI rifles make a very big difference.i watched a man shoot at 300 yds with a ar-15 colt flat top reciever with a 20 inch medium weight barrel with a simple 3x9 leupold scope mounted and he did not miss a 10 inch gong,20 shots in a row. and he did it very quickly. if he had been in a good hide he could have killed 20 men as quick as they popped up. i,m glad they are issueing good optic,s to our men. eastbank.
Difference is there is no stress shooting at a steel gong.

SharpsDressedMan
March 7, 2012, 05:45 PM
From a 300 yard position, unless the enemy is VERY, very good, there isn't that much stress. IF they aren't putting heat one you, you can focus a little more..................

HavelockLEO
March 7, 2012, 06:49 PM
I have a friend that was an infantryman (Marine mind you) in Somalia, he said that his unit went on patrol they filled every possible pocket and pouch with ammo, either loaded mags or stripper clips. And that came down from higher HQ

X-Rap
March 7, 2012, 06:55 PM
Big problem as well...I know of two people that are getting an early out...against their will...because of back/knee/shoulder problems.

Seems the military wants them out before serious medical problems do happen.

Sorry to poo poo a great thread, but I had to bring this up.

The story with my son, I thought he was going to be a 20 yr man but 4yrs in a LI Cav unit pretty much took it out of his back and knees.

Coop45
March 7, 2012, 07:04 PM
It really depends on how much ammo you will need before you can realistically be resupplied.

Averageman
March 7, 2012, 07:13 PM
I'm a 50 y.o. contractor.
I serve embedded with Army units, I wear the same body armor and although I can't "carry" a weapon I usually carry a load, but most of it is tools with a weapon somewhere near by.
Next Friday I will get an operation to repair two hernia's.
God Bless these kids, 'cause the V.A. wont.

gmh1013
March 7, 2012, 07:25 PM
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/02/ap-report-soldiers-carry-too-much-weight-021411/

Old Time Hunter
March 7, 2012, 08:26 PM
From the depths of my memory....

2 X 10 mags w/19rds ea along with 2 pouches hanging (only one if I carried an extra canteen) on my utility holding 3 mags w/19rds ea + 1 in the box.

3 -2 qt canteens, only two if had both pouches.

3rd pouch w/ 2 frag and one smoke

Ruck had at least one clay and two mortar rds along with some personal eats & bandaids.

Issued a 1911, but it almost always stayed home, and stayed pretty. Luckly managed to secure a .38 std that stayed with me everywhere including 20 rds extra in my pocket.

Thank God we only had about twenty "hikes" during the duration.

Optics would not have been all that helpful 'cause a paddy shot would have been the longest direct fire opportunity and there weren't too many of them. Seemed as though the 5.56 couldn't split a tree past a couple of hundred meters either.

Oh yeah, when wearing a flak jacket, soaking wet from your own perspiration, that added on the pounds too.

Vern Humphrey
March 7, 2012, 10:26 PM
From the Army Times article:
The Army also is trying to reduce the use of opiates for pain.
I can't count the number of friends of mine who were given morphine when wounded and wound up having to go through detox after the physical wounds heal.

To this day, I refuse to use painkillers any more powerful than Tylenol, no matter how much I hurt.

dcarch
March 7, 2012, 10:36 PM
I was given Lortab for a surgery earlier, and I never took it. I figure I would rather deal with it with aspirin than get addicted to that stuff.

gmh1013
March 7, 2012, 10:45 PM
Join Date: October 2, 2010
Location: The Hawkeye State
Posts: 608 I was given Lortab for a surgery earlier, and I never took it. I figure I would rather deal with it with aspirin than get addicted to that stuff.
__________________
Iowa State Code 10465A: All persons operating a truck, or other vehicle with a cab and/or cargo bay area shall be required to raise at least two fingers in cordial acknowledgment to other drivers while utilizing all public roads within the state of Iowa. This law does not apply to residents of cities with a population exceeding 7,500 persons.

Very smart....im addicated to hydrocodone ....its as bad as the pain.
I wish Id never started on the stuff

bubba in ca
March 7, 2012, 11:01 PM
i was in a straight leg Army unit late in the war. I remember having 2 30 round mags taped together with electrical tape and 27 rounds in each one. I don`t remember lugging much ammo. We arternated between perimeter guard, day patols , and overnight ambushes.

When we were in the field for a week or more, we had flack jackets and buku ammo in the APC. There was a lot of faith in air, naval guns, and artillery support. Actually, some time later I figured out that we were a ``bait`` unit--if one of our little patrols stumbled into anything, all hell would have rained down from the sky.

When I carried an m60, I had 200 rounds and somebody in the squad had another 200. I vaugely remember having a vest with maybe a dozen rounds of 40 mm when I carried a blooper.

We were not allowed to have handguns, knives, bayonets, or hand grenades for fear we might kill somebody. When coming back to base we were subject to search at the gate.

Coop45
March 8, 2012, 12:35 AM
Remember grunt aspirins.......Darvon 65.

ScrapMetalSlug
March 8, 2012, 04:46 PM
You're not poo pooing anything -- the modern infantryman is heavily overloaded. And yes, indeed, you have to expect a lot of back and joint injuries because of that.

You aren't kidding. Loaded down with all of that gear, trying to maneuver dismounted against a force that is carrying/wearing nothing except their weapon and a man dress. That is why frequently it is suppress until you stop taking fire and the enemy melts back into the population. That is even if roe allows you to fire where they are, structures, etc.

CZguy
March 8, 2012, 05:30 PM
F4 Phantom lls primarily. plain jane .38

What model? Do you remember any tail numbers?

I may have crewed one at one time.

allaroundhunter
March 8, 2012, 05:41 PM
Both of my Grandfathers served in Korea, both carried 1911's. Each carried 3 magazines for a total of 21 rounds. One was a pilot, the other a medic.

Only my grandfather that was a medic had to use his pistol in combat. He has only talked about his time in Korea a few times, but has only mentioned this firefight once. He said that afterwords he never again doubted the 1911 or its purpose on his side.

For those of you that have served or are currently serving, thank you. I have nothing but the utmost respect for our veterans and soldiers

Lloyd Smale
March 9, 2012, 06:41 AM
I never carried a handgun. Allways figured if i wanted the extra weight of 3 mags and a 1911 id rather have a couple more rifle magazines.

zdc1775
March 9, 2012, 07:25 AM
Today's Infantryman carries an enormous load -- just the helmet and body armor are more than most want to carry. Factor in all the other stuff, and you're looking at 80 lbs + per man. There isn't much excess carrying capacity left.


Big problem as well...I know of two people that are getting an early out...against their will...because of back/knee/shoulder problems.That's me right there.

I joined the Marines 17 days out of High School. Went into the Infantry and loved every minute of it. Two year nine months and nine days later I was Medically Discharged due to three ruptured disks in my lower back, torn MCL, torn ACL, and torn Medial Meniscus. I spent about a month and a half in a wheel chair and then six months on crutches. Still have problems with it daily two and a half years after I was first injured.

I said all that not for sympathy, but so you could all understand what we go through in the modern military. Out of everyone in my unit I would say we suffered around 50% injuries during our training. Most were relatively minor; sprains, minor fractures, partially torn ligaments, and torn muscles were common; but some were much worse than even my injuries.

Oh just to keep it on topic. I was wearing an Interceptor vest with front, back, and side ISAPIís inserted, 2 two hundred round boxes of blank ammunition in pouches on the front and IFAK on the side of the vest, and a Kevlar helmet, while carrying an ILBE pack that had a twenty five pound sandbag in it, and M-249 with a box of 200 rounds of blank ammunition in it when I injured myself on a training run.

Highgate
March 9, 2012, 09:57 AM
remember that no small arms were returned to the US that saw action in Europe or the Pacific, unless they were stolen by a GI.
The late Sam Cummings of Interarms helped 'tidy up' all sorts of small arms from all sorts of wars in huge quantities, starting with WW2 European weapons.

He or someone like him also bought up loads of weapons stocks of all flavours from post-war Vietnam. He was a fascinating character. An excellent shot but never carried any personal weapon - "too heavy".

Highgate
March 9, 2012, 10:01 AM
Both of my Grandfathers served in Korea, both carried 1911's.
My father served as a Chaplain in Koreo.

Against the rules, he was armed because "He was damned if he would stand by and let himself die in a human wave Chinese attack without defending his colleagues."

However someone in London then issued him with a directive that priests must NOT carry arms.

lowerunit411
March 9, 2012, 02:56 PM
What model? Do you remember any tail numbers?

I may have crewed one at one time.......czguy
F4B..........8487 was the last one i remember ..i have serials and frame numbers as well as insignia data on the others i flew upstairs in my stuff....thanks for your service...were you a WSO?

Panzercat
March 9, 2012, 03:38 PM
He was unable to grab the ring on the string which would have set off his vest thanks to the old undependable 1911!
Damn. Double damn.
Your (all) probably didn't hear it nearly often enough back then, but thank you. Nobody should have to cut it that close.

jaysouth
March 9, 2012, 11:39 PM
I spent a couple of years working across the street from Interarms and Ye Olde Hunter in Alexadria. I was there when they were cataloging items to be sent to the museum in the UK that Cummins started. It was amazing at the stuff that they discovered in their warehouses. One I remember in particular was an FG-42 with serial number 00001. Ships would dock at our docks with holds full of small arms. The manifest would typically read "107 metric tons, assorted small arms". Nary a serial number or detailed itemiztion of the items being unladed. That was the 'good ole days' of course. Now there would be dozens of inspectors from every alphabet soup agency tripping over each other to match items and serial numbers to a very detailed manifest.

Sam got his start picking up weapons off recent battle fields in Europe after WWII. He then graduated to buying up arms from foreign governments. He was 'mobbed up' with the CIA.

However, the US defense establishment did not bring any small arms back to the US after a war until Desert Storm.

CZguy
March 10, 2012, 03:39 AM
F4B..........8487 was the last one i remember ..i have serials and frame numbers as well as insignia data on the others i flew upstairs in my stuff....thanks for your service...were you a WSO?

No, I had several different jobs in maintenance. I started out with F-4 C then F-4 E and finished out my career on F-15 A and F-15 C.

When I had spare time I would go and review the historical documents on the F4s. I had one that had shot down two MiG 21s in 1968. Fascinating reading.

Weren't the Navy B models the ones built without break-stacks? I assume just trapped landings?

At least we trusted our WSOs with a stick. Your RIOs were stick less. :D

And thank you Sir, for your service.

Gordon
March 10, 2012, 02:14 PM
Well for that sapper (suicide bomber today's parlance) attempt all these senior NCOs and junior officers tried to claim his demise which was out front of my stairway down to my bunker. Funny thing is all were shooting M-16s and the body only had 3 .45 holes in the front and one to the back of the head. So guess who got the Bronze Star and glowing write up from the Colonel who was in TOC?

Leadbutt
March 10, 2012, 03:00 PM
Funny after reading thru this thread all the memories it brings back, as a standard issued mod-1 11B grunt jaysouth has cover load out, pretty much same same here,when I got stupid and switched up to the LRPS with the 4th, load out got crazy some times, no 60's unless we where really scared of the what ifs, a mix 16's and CAR's, thumper, and the 1st shirt and I carried cut down 37's in the Alice pack, normally 20 round mag's loaded with 18 rounds, 12 on the LBE and the rest in the butt pack, for get socks!!:D

For the thumper/bloop tube a mix of HE,fleshete, buckshot between the 5 or 6 of us don't remember the total round count now. the 1st shirt and I had a box of buckshot in the pack for the 37's, each man carried 2 bandoleers, we all carried pistols of some type, mostly 45's, with 4 mag's, on P-35 with 3 mag's, and we had one guy that carried an old 1917 Colt with a hand full of loaded up moon clips, rest of the crap was the various sundry ,go bangs and hand grenades,even the guy who humped the pric carried heavy, I'll bet for the most part we carried damn near 75% body weight on long patrols, and I was about a buck and a half then. After seeing what the guys carry now, i would volunteer for tracks!!

winter1857
March 10, 2012, 08:18 PM
I was an 11 Bravo for six years in the '80's. 101st, Southern Command in Panama and 2nd ID in Korea. Couple of trips to patrol along the Honduran/Nicaraguan border, 21 months in Korea on the DMZ. We usually carried six 30 round mags in pouches on our LBEs and one mag in our rifles for 210 rounds total.

CZguy
March 10, 2012, 10:21 PM
I was an 11 Bravo for six years in the '80's. 101st, Southern Command in Panama and 2nd ID in Korea. Couple of trips to patrol along the Honduran/Nicaraguan border, 21 months in Korea on the DMZ. We usually carried six 30 round mags in pouches on our LBEs and one mag in our rifles for 210 rounds total.

If need be up on the line was more ammo prepositioned and available?

Out of the 21 months that you spent in Korea, were you there for either of the two days when the weather was pleasant. :D

lonestardiver
March 10, 2012, 10:55 PM
I don't think it has been said enough...

Thank you for your Service and Welcome Home !!

My father did 2 tours in the 67-68 time frame. He was in Quartermaster and had a camp called Team Frazier if I recall correctly.

I have a friend who was a Marine Corp Sniper and when not on a mission carried a M1 Garand. He hated the M-16's...still does today.

Hocka Louis
March 11, 2012, 12:25 AM
Friend's brother -- three tour Staff Sargeant Airborne Pathfinder. At the end of his tenure I'm pretty sure the standard official loadout was six or six plus one 30-round filled mags (with only 27 rounds each). But all carried as much ammo as they possibly could physically, he said, as there was no point in having a gun without something to shoot.

JShirley
March 11, 2012, 08:10 AM
GunnyUSMC,

Do you perhaps mean the M47 Dragon (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m47-dragon.htm)?

trex, that's just because you're from Mobile.

John

Phantom Captain
March 11, 2012, 09:42 AM
Thank you, all vets everywhere. I have nothing but respect for you all. My grandfather was a B.A.R. gunner at Guadalcanal and then volunteered for the secret mission that become known as the Merrill's Marauders. He was one of the 190 remaining men that walked out on their own power at the end of the Burma campaign. He carried that war and it's effects with him the rest of his life but was a true hero and a fighter. R.I.P. Grampa! C. Joyce, 3rd Battalion, I Company, Orange Combat Team, 5307 Composite Unit (Provisional).

That said...

I have a good friend who was in the 25th Infantry, 1/5 Mechanized and served during 67-68. Since he was mechanized he told me his unit was out in it pretty much everyday. During his tour he spent two nights under a roof at Cu Chi, the rest of the time was out in the jungle or sleeping around his APC in a hole.

He told me that on patrol he would carry as much ammo as possible. He also said he liked and preferred the M-16 because of the weight and he didn't really recall anyone having problems with them. What was interesting to me was that he said while carrying as many mags as he could, between 10-15, he also carried out boxes of loose ammo. He told me during fire fights he would lay his empty mags down in front of him and during any kind of lull or break whatsoever that he would start reloading his mags, right there in the field. He told me nothing bothered him more than the thought of running out of ammo and additionally it always made him feel better to be doing something. They would never drop mags or ammo as he said they never wanted to leave anything for the enemy.

He did say that all the guys would help carrying belts for the M-60. He also said it was different for different units in different parts of the country and this went just for his squad, of which he was squad leader. Also, being mechanized, they had rolling ammo re-supply right there in their APCs so they would take and use all they could carry.

He told me that no one he knew would ever pick up or use an AK because the sound of it would draw friendly fire. Of course, he said he's heard other guys talk about using them out there and liking them but from his experience and memory nobody wanted to sound like the enemy in a fight. Again, he said everyone's experience and memory was different and he's amused even today by what people remember differently even in their own squad.

I love hanging out and talking with the man, he's a wealth of experience and knowledge and I'm honored to call him my friend.

clem
March 11, 2012, 10:52 AM
Seven 30 rd magazines and 2 or 3 bandoleers of ammo.

Lonerider357
March 12, 2012, 01:23 AM
You asked about Army and Marines! We in the Navy Riverine Squadrons carried as much ammo and mags as the PBR MK IV would carry and still float!!

JShirley
March 12, 2012, 04:54 AM
I have a good friend who was in the 25th Infantry, 1/5

Huh. My first assignment was with Alpha Company, 1-5 Infantry.

GunnyUSMC
March 13, 2012, 07:57 AM
Do you perhaps mean the M47 Dragon?

trex, that's just because you're from Mobile.

Yep, That's the one.
I used it to take out one of these at approx. 800 meters.

bikerdoc
March 13, 2012, 08:10 AM
We in the Navy Riverine Squadrons carried as much ammo and mags as the PBR MK IV would carry and still float!!


A salute to Riverine sailors, Saved many a GI butt, including mine once.

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