CC in NJ possible because of HR822?


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Ranger30-06
March 6, 2012, 09:17 AM
Hello everyone. I was in my favorite little gun shop poking around for a Makarov the other day, and several guys were talking about how Jersey was going to try to pass shall issue CC if HR822 passes. They were apparently also saying that it would be several hundred for the license, which includes mandatory training or something like that. He was saying that it wouldn't be because of gun reasons, but because of the ridicules amount of money that could be made if the bill passed.

Does anyone know anything about this? NJ is as bad as IL and CA when it comes to the police and knowing the gun laws, and some Sheriffs are known to hold FID and Pistol Purchase paperwork for as long as possible (6 months). This could be an awkward bill for them to pass, but I still have hope... :rolleyes:

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tyeo098
March 6, 2012, 09:51 AM
You need to have been issued a CCW in your home state to qualify under HR822.

Much like a drivers license, you cant live in NJ and have a VA license (for too long anyway). If you DO get a NJ CCW (heh, good luck) you are good in all 50 states (minus DC and IL, as they do not have CCW laws to begin with, and are exempt.)

Ranger30-06
March 6, 2012, 10:08 AM
tyeo098: I'm not talking about the reciprocity of having an out of state permit, but I'm talking about the rumor that NJ will go from may issue to shall issue in order to generate additional revenue to the states income if 822 passes because they apparently don't want to be left behind on the bandwagon.

I'm looking for info on this from anyone that has heard likewise and/or links to the subject. I know the NJ Second Amendment Foundation filed a lawsuit about this not to long ago about the unconstitutionality of out CC permit system, but apparently a North Jersey Judge shut it down real fast. My gosh how I wish North and South Jersey were split... It's nice down here and the people (except for the Camden area) aren't that bad! And talk about gazillions of turkeys/deer...

infmp32
March 6, 2012, 11:22 AM
It would be most welcome that's for sure, but like you said Ranger the fees would likely be exorbitant. Can't see any CCW classes being free like hunter education. They'd have to overhaul the whole system really or it'd just be a bigger scam than it is now. This state is so screwed up with gun laws that I wouldn't have a hard time believing the current FID/Pistol Permit system would stay in place and CCW placed on top of it. Utterly ridiculous. I hadn't heard anything about it yet though.

Hey Johnny, I'm from right next to Paramus in that Washington/Westwood/Emerson/Oradell cluster.

Ranger30-06
March 6, 2012, 11:31 AM
infmp32: While yes, the system is a huge disaster, it really wouldn't be hard to change. The paperwork is already there. You can apply for a CCW, it'll just be denied instantly and you'll have to put down that you were denied a permit for the rest of your life...

All they need to do is change it to "shall issue", and if they wanted to do the whole "required training" thing, I'm sure it could be worked out. Yea, $500 would be ridicules (the cost that they were throwing around in the gun store), but it would be a step in the right direction.

Johnny Dollar: Totalitarian? lol Don't you think that's a little light? :D Maybe more like "I am zee ruler! Don't dare challenge me or you shall be punished by laws our own government cannot comprehend!"

But yea, the pine barons are nice; lots of jobs out there too with construction and heavy equipment!

xXxplosive
March 6, 2012, 11:41 AM
The recent decision in Maryland Courts yesterday really puts NJ Law at question.
Same "Right To Show Cause" found to be unconstitutional may impact us here at some time down the road but a CCW in NJ.........I would be hard pressed to believe that could happen without a legal struggle of some sort. Here in NJ they have a way of writting laws that are at best undecernable, even for LE......

avs11054
March 6, 2012, 12:32 PM
NJ is as bad as IL and CA when it comes to the police and knowing the gun laws,

Sources please.

AlexanderA
March 6, 2012, 12:37 PM
If H.R. 822 passed, you'd have an anomalous situation in which out-of-state residents (say, Virginia residents with carry permits) could carry in NJ while NJ residents, for all practical purposes, couldn't. It's this anomalous situation that would create political pressure for it to be rectified (and not so much a need or desire to raise revenue by bleeding permit-seekers). Note, however, that there are two ways the anomaly could be "rectified" -- one would be to change the NJ permit system to "shall-issue." But the other way would be to abolish the permit system altogether, and make NJ no-permit like Illinois or DC. Given the general anti-gun tenor of NJ politicians, which of these two scenarios is most likely? Moral: be careful what you wish for.

xXxplosive
March 6, 2012, 12:56 PM
True............living here in NJ we are very susceptable to laws that carry stiff jail terms for normal everyday procedures carried on by residents of other states....ie. restricted guns list, magazine capacity limits, no castle doctrine, restrictions on driving while in the possession of a firearm (most direct route to and from a gun shop or range only), must register / sign for ammo purchases, FID cards for retail gun purchases, types of permissable ammunition in possession, 1 gun a month law....etc.

Any violation of these is jail time with costly severe penalties......residents of other state as close as neighboring PA want nothing to do with NJ firearms laws...and who could blame them.

Ranger30-06
March 6, 2012, 01:02 PM
Sources please.
Well living here, I can say that:

getting a permit to just purchase long guns,
separate permits for every pistol you want to purchase,
1 handgun a month,
no mags over 15 rounds,
a long list of banned-by-name rifles,
pistol ammo registration,
no cc unless your up tight with the governor,
restrictions out the wazoo on pistols,
semi auto rifles and shotguns,
our law that says you must retreat as far as possible and be within 7 yards of the attacker to shoot someone in self defense,
and no rifle hunting even though all of our game land is overwhelmingly secluded,

it all gets really old really fast.

This is barely even touching on the laws. We can't even buy BB guns without an FID card! :fire:

AlexanderA: I know what your saying, but banning the system altogether is retarded on their part because it wouldn't change a darn thing. HR822 requires other states to acknowledge the CC permits of other states, so NJ can stomp its feet all it wants, but it won't get its way.

gunguy0829
March 6, 2012, 01:05 PM
I grew up in Lebanon, N.J and now live in Colorado. The gun laws in jersey are so rediculous. Here in colorado, its a shall issue, open carry is no big deal pretty much everywhere exept denver (city ordinance ). I would never in a million years move back to jersey just because of the gun laws. My brother still lives there and is going through all the stuff required, wow, i like being able to walk into a store, find a gun and within 45 minutes, i am at the range shooting that gun. How do you all do it? I hope they change the jersey gun laws.

xXxplosive
March 6, 2012, 01:11 PM
Guess we're just all programed here by our elected officials and state & local LE.

7 yards of the attacker to shoot someone.....? never heard that one......sounds like a misinterpretation there to me.

gunguy0829
March 6, 2012, 01:13 PM
not to mention no permits needed for anything except ccw, which for $200 and that includes the class you WILL have a ccw, as long as there is no legal reason. There are a ton of legal ways to cc in colorado with out a ccw, i.e. hunting, in your car, home and that includes your property or place of business, loaded hand guns are allowed in your car wherever you want to put it. And we have the make my day law, no laws on distance for self defense, however cases have been lost when the victim was too far from the attacker to prove their life was in danger.

gunguy0829
March 6, 2012, 01:15 PM
xxxplosive...many states actualy have laws similar to that one, not sure of the valididy of that one, but they do have those laws.

Ranger30-06
March 6, 2012, 01:29 PM
7 yards of the attacker to shoot someone.....? never heard that one......sounds like a misinterpretation there to me.


I thought it was too, until about 2 dozen people ranging from cops to range officers to gun store people/employees all told me at different times how I would be in as much trouble as the crook if I shot him from more than 7 yards away and if he wasn't moving towards you can't shoot em. It's pathetic...

bhesler
March 6, 2012, 02:16 PM
The CC proposal with the $500 fee was floated by a Senator from Cape May in 2010.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/nj_senator_pushes_law_allowing.html

There are currently companion bills in the legislature which would remove the justifiable need, approval by judge, and extend from two to five years. These were discussed in the activism section.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=643385

These proposals were written by members of opposing parties, so there is some interest on both sides of the aisle.

xXxplosive
March 6, 2012, 02:19 PM
Ranger.....if your referring to some reference to the 21 ft. rule, that has absolutely nothing to do with written law.
Everybody is an expert .........Geeezzz.
IMO.....they are referring to a random distance in which it would be difficult to prove your innocense if indeed you could avoid the confrontation.....one might believe that in that distance you could possibly seek cover or may retreat...... or maybe not......just see some of the documented knife attacks at that distance and one soon realizes how fast an armed assailant can cover that distance in attack mode....literally split seconds.

Please don't take the words of guns shop workers or even NJ LEO's for written law....they know mostly less than the community here. LEO, although officers of the court are not lawyers or judges and gun shop workers............OMG.

You can always research the NJ statutes on your own for exact answers to some of your questions.....not word of mouth.....Please.

Ranger30-06
March 7, 2012, 08:38 AM
Thanks bhesler. That's what I was hoping for. Turns out the CC we may have now will be better than what was proposed before! What?!? NJ can do something better?!? :rolleyes:


xXxplosive That's nice to know... When a hundred people all started saying the same thing, I just kinda took it as fact. I know there is a clause in there though that says you have to retreat before you can shoot an intruder...

xXxplosive
March 7, 2012, 08:55 AM
Actually, here in NJ there is no retreat law on the books for being in your residence / home or place of business......you might want to check it out and get clear on the issues.

Ranger30-06
March 7, 2012, 09:11 AM
Actually, here in NJ there is no retreat law on the books for being in your residence / home or place of business......you might want to check it out and get clear on the issues.
Citation? I can't find anything that supports either side...

sharps59
March 7, 2012, 12:52 PM
Born in Carlstadt lived in Ridgewood now in Hawthore, my family are all still in Carlstadt Woodridge an Hasbrok Heights. Even LEO from what I hear hav to go in front of a Judge to add to there ccws

Ranger30-06
March 7, 2012, 01:10 PM
Born in Carlstadt lived in Ridgewood now in Hawthore, my family are all still in Carlstadt Woodridge an Hasbrok Heights. Even LEO from what I hear hav to go in front of a Judge to add to there ccws
Yes, but it's a guaranteed signing. One of the "perks" or "special privileges" of being an LEO in NJ is you can carry after you retire. It's on the NJ PD website...

xXxplosive
March 7, 2012, 01:14 PM
Nothing is garunteed in NJ......IMO.
Just had a good friend retire after 25 yrs. here.....he had to go for qualification test, waited for his permit and was told he could no longer carry HP ammo......

Ranger30-06
March 7, 2012, 01:20 PM
Nothing is garunteed in NJ......IMO.
Just had a good friend retire after 25 yrs. here.....he had to go for qualification test, waited for his permit and was told he could no longer carry HP ammo......
That part is the most frustrating; You can only own HP ammo for target shooting, not for hunting and not for SD. If you get caught with HP ammo that isn't for target shooting, you face a felony for each round of ammo! This state is near hopeless...

xXxplosive
March 7, 2012, 01:29 PM
Sorry, but you can use hollow point ammo in NJ for hunting.......Chucks, Deer....etc.
And you can also use hollow points for SD in your residence or place of business....your choice again.
Possession is another issue here entirely..........you got to read the NJ Statutes to be clear.

Ranger30-06
March 7, 2012, 01:39 PM
And you can also use hollow points for SD in your residence or place of business.


Most certainly not! There was a guy a bit back that got arrested for a SD shooting where he used a HP bullet and wound up being charged with a felony.

Hunting with them is a moot point anyway, as you can only use shotguns anyway...


EDIT: Here's a link to possession of HP ammo. It doesn't say what is illegal, but rather the only times it is legal to posses. Hunting and target shooting are on there, but SD most certainly isn't. http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html

xXxplosive
March 7, 2012, 01:52 PM
Correction: You can use rifles for Chucks in NJ and you can hand load HP's for
them.
You can use HP slugs for deer...ie 1oz. Remington.
You can use any legaly owned ammo for self defense in your home.

Please read the NJ Statutes and stop listening to others who only spread conjecture.....

Ranger30-06
March 7, 2012, 01:58 PM
Correction: You can use rifles for Chucks in NJ and you can hand load HP's for
them.
You can use HP slugs for deer...ie 1oz. Remington.
You can use any legaly owned ammo for self defense in your home.

Please read the NJ Statutes and stop listening to others who only spread conjecture.....

You can use a .22 rimfire only, and it falls under the "hunting" provision.
Please read the link I put up. It's from the state PD web site, and cites 4 very specific allowances for obtaining HP ammo:

Hunting
Target shooting
In your home or business
On your way directly to the range


I did read the statutes thank you very much. Can we get this thread back on topic please?

Tom488
March 7, 2012, 02:30 PM
I did read the statutes thank you very much.
No, you didn't. You read a FAQ on a web site. Use of HP ammo in SD inside your home is not illegal, as possession of said ammo is still within one's home. It doesn't matter who was charged with what... it only matters who was CONVICTED of what. Police erroneously charge people all the time - doesn't make what they were doing illegal.

Let's play this game: you're a prosecutor. I defend myself from an attacker in my home, using HP ammo. What SPECIFIC statute are you going to charge me with, and why?

Ranger30-06
March 7, 2012, 02:41 PM
Let's play this game: you're a prosecutor. I defend myself from an attacker in my home, using HP ammo. What SPECIFIC statute are you going to charge me with, and why?

Violation of N.J.S.A 26:39-6f by performing an activity outside of the provisions provided.

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:
1. A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle
Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2. A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3. A person going directly to a target range, and;
4. A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting
exhibitions."


Yes, it's retarded, but this is Jersey. :fire:

bhesler
March 7, 2012, 03:45 PM
The hollow point law is actually NJSA 2C:39-3f
...(1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, ... is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. ...

Then there is the exception in NJSA 2C:39-3g
...(2) a. Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, nor shall subsection f. ...

Then the exceptions previously listed as part of NJSA 2C:39-6f (which the state police website improperly lists as 26:39-6f)

So, knowingly possessing a hollow point round is illegal, except it is OK in your home, or hunting, or target practicing, or on the way to/from the range, or from the store where it was purchased to your home. Nothing in the law says that it is illegal to use the hollow points, just to possess them knowingly.

dprice3844444
March 7, 2012, 03:56 PM
ahhhhhhh,hasbrouck heights.spent my first 14 years there,moved to fla in 1969.

Ranger30-06
March 7, 2012, 04:07 PM
The hollow point law is actually NJSA 2C:39-3f
...(1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, ... is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. ...

Then there is the exception in NJSA 2C:39-3g
...(2) a. Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, nor shall subsection f. ...

Then the exceptions previously listed as part of NJSA 2C:39-6f (which the state police website improperly lists as 26:39-6f)

So, knowingly possessing a hollow point round is illegal, except it is OK in your home, or hunting, or target practicing, or on the way to/from the range, or from the store where it was purchased to your home. Nothing in the law says that it is illegal to use the hollow points, just to possess them knowingly.
So in short, they are illegal unless covered by one of the exceptions, which HD is not one of.

xXxplosive
March 7, 2012, 08:33 PM
Guy.............in your home you can use a Chandelier if you can yank it off the ceiling to defend against a viable threat.......hollow points also.

Stop spredding.............BS and read the Law.

That's it.........done.

Bonesinium
March 8, 2012, 06:40 PM
So in short, they are illegal unless covered by one of the exceptions, which HD is not one of.
Reading what you quote is usually helpful. But since you didn't, not much else can be said. Nonetheless, I'll quote it again.

Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him...

Ranger30-06
March 8, 2012, 07:29 PM
Keeping is not the same as using. The reason you can "keep" hollow point ammo is for one of the other provisions, which are target shooting and hunting. Did you guys miss the part where it says that HP bullets are automatically illegal except for those certain provisions?

bhesler
March 8, 2012, 09:12 PM
Here is the loophole to the law. The law only makes knowingly being in possession illegal, and is silent on use. Any bullet that is fired and comes to rest in your property, is still in your possession, and is being "kept". Any bullet that strikes the bad guy is no longer in your possession, but in the bad guy's possession. So, if you do shoot a bad guy with a hollow point, make sure to tell him, so he will then knowingly be in possession, and can be charged as such. :evil:

Bonesinium
March 8, 2012, 10:30 PM
Keeping is not the same as using. The reason you can "keep" hollow point ammo is for one of the other provisions, which are target shooting and hunting. Did you guys miss the part where it says that HP bullets are automatically illegal except for those certain provisions?
So if keeping and using are different, and there is nothing written about using, by your own example, which is presumably that since keeping=to have in your possesion, you must no longer posses those hollow points, so they can't charge you with having them illegally if you no longer have the ones you used! After all, any others you have, you are just keeping for those other legal purposes right?

Unless of course you ignore the law, ignore your own examples that are contrary to the law anyways, and just manifest in your own mind that they are illegal, then of course you can do/say whatever you want.

I'm with bhesler. Just make sure all hollow points you were keeping are shot into someone else, then charge the person shot with the illegal possession charge or whatever you seem to think it is.

Ranger30-06
March 8, 2012, 10:34 PM
Ok, I'm done running around this point. If you want to use hollow points, feel free, and post what happens on here so the rest of us know for sure.

Any following posts should be on the original topic. Thanks.

Tom488
March 9, 2012, 12:29 AM
Keeping is not the same as using.
Then, by your logic, you can't use your handgun for SD, either - because "possession of a handgun without a permit to carry is generally illegal (2C:39-5b), unless covered under one of the exemptions (2C:39-6)". So, since SD isn't an exemption under 2C:39-6, I guess using your handgun for SD is illegal, too, yes?

:rolleyes:

General Geoff
March 9, 2012, 05:41 AM
Tom488, I wouldn't be surprised if a prosecutor charged you for it.

Bonesinium
March 9, 2012, 08:21 AM
Tom488, I wouldn't be surprised if a prosecutor charged you for it.
I wouldn't either. But that doesn't mean they are correct. When it boils down to it, in NJ, it might not matter how right you are, or even what the law says. That is the sad reality, as you noted. :(

Tom488
March 9, 2012, 08:33 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if a prosecutor charged you for it.
It happens all the time... I've read of several instances where people get charged with, among other things, possession of hollow-point ammo in their own home. The charges always get dropped (or used as a bargaining chip to get a guilty plea on other crimes). The latest one that comes to mind was someone arrested for unlawful possession of stolen rifles... and HP ammo. "Look, if you plead to the stolen rifles, we'll drop the HP charge. Good deal, right?"

The bottom line is, it's black-letter law. "Nothing shall be construed to prevent the possession of HP ammo in one's home". Period. You can NOT be convicted of 2C:39-3f, possession of hollow-nose ammunition (convicted being the operative word here... a ham sandwich can be charged with, and indicted for, anything) for possessing or USING hollow-points in your home. Any one who thinks to the contrary is simply failing at basic reading comprehension.

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