Best non-lethal self/home defense weapon?


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longtrail
March 6, 2012, 09:40 PM
I've been looking for a good non-lethal self/home defense weapon and have had my eye on a telescopic steel rod. I like the idea of a telescopic steel rod because it can be concealed if I want to (although it will usually just be kept in my house), but also gives me a little distance from an attacker. I'm a recent college graduate and don't have a whole lot of money, so I was looking at something cheaper than a name brand like ASP. I've read online that the Taiwanese made steel rods are good quality for the price (under $30, and better quality than Chinese made ones). I wouldn't mind spending the extra money on a name brand if it's worth it, but if not I'd rather save the extra $50 and put it towards a revolver. I live in Vermont where we have no laws/permits for guns or any other self defense weapons for the most part, other than federal ones of course.

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jbstratman
March 6, 2012, 09:45 PM
Golf Club? Baseball Bat. I'm serious, if money is a problem just about anything in your home can be used as a weapon. How about Pepper Spray? . . . Personally, I'd save up and get the revolver if that is what you want . . .

Nematocyst
March 6, 2012, 09:54 PM
Right here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=646068).

Walking Dead
March 6, 2012, 09:58 PM
A full grown Great Pyrenees should do the trick.

longtrail
March 6, 2012, 10:01 PM
Yeah I've also considered just going with the classic Louisville Slugger, they are cheap and effective. I used one of my friends once to scare off some kids with a knife outside his house and the sight of me with it alone was enough to send them running. I'm a pretty big guy (about 210 lbs) and am an athlete so I really want something non-lethal, as I sometimes don't know my own strength. It just would be nice to have the option to do the same amount of damage as a bat/instill the same amount of fear while also being able to carry it in my pocket, like a telescopic rod. I don't really like pepper spray because of the fact that if I don't spray them in the face, it's not gonna do a whole lot.

hso
March 6, 2012, 10:05 PM
Non-lethal???

You'll have to change your thinking on impact self defense tools and lethality, or non-lethality.
Everything you've suggested is lethal. Plenty of people killed with baseball bats and golf clubs and other "clubs".

The least lethal SD tools are chemical or electrical and the best pepper sprays and Taser products work.

There are some good threads you can read here that will help.

jrw69
March 6, 2012, 10:05 PM
When you buy your metal stick and some dude comes in high on PCP and takes it off you on the first swing, make sure you have a good quality taser that only pisses him off more. Then you can come back ask us what you should of bought to drop him. Just my opinion.

Nematocyst
March 6, 2012, 10:13 PM
Lethality is a function of what body part said weapon is applied to and the amount of force used.

For my sticks, I would apply force with the following criteria:

* hit to the arm holding a weapon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgaQ07D09Y)
* hit to the ribs (lower, floating)
* strike to the neck/shoulder intersection (brachial plexus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachial_plexus))
* strike to the head from jaw to cerebrum (last resort to a meth/angel dusted person whom,
for those of us who've dealt with such vermin, recognize the symptoms)

longtrail
March 6, 2012, 10:23 PM
Thanks so much for the info everyone! I realize that all of these CAN be lethal, but I would use them in non-lethal ways if possible. Nematocyst, very helpful post, that's just how I was thinking I'd use it. JRW69 - that's what my Gerber is for...that thing will cut through anything!

hso
March 6, 2012, 10:26 PM
No, a weapon is lethal if it can readily kill. Whether you use it in a manner that kills or not is a function of the application.

It is very dangerous to mistake the fact you may not want to maim or kill with a weapon for whether the weapon is actually a lethal, less-lethal or non-lethal weapon. Far too many people have killed without intending to making that deadly mistake.

rcmodel
March 6, 2012, 10:30 PM
Naked, laughing hysterically, with a Ready-Whip mustache & drool would do it for me if I was a home invader.

rc

Nematocyst
March 6, 2012, 10:31 PM
No, a weapon is lethal if it can readily kill.

No. I didn't say lethal weapon. I said "lethality".

Just as you said "non lethal" in post 6 instead of "non lethal weapon".

Let's be clear lest we talk past one another.

Owen Sparks
March 7, 2012, 12:27 AM
Why would you want a non-lethal home defense weapon?

The bad guy crossed the line when he forcably entered your home. Do not give him a "sporting chance".

Fred Fuller
March 7, 2012, 12:59 AM
What happens if the intruder has a firearm?

hso
March 7, 2012, 01:31 AM
Or a hammer?



I sometimes don't know my own strength is the reason you give for wanting a baton, but very specific training is provided with batons to limit their use to pain compliance tools striking to the big muscle groups and avoiding head/face/neck/joints. This control isn't natural for most individuals and they tend to strike at the head and neck intentionally or inadvertently as their attacker puts their arms up to protect the head and neck. This defensive posture protecting the head and neck is instinctive when faced with a club and strangely enough it draws the baton wielder to strike at the arms and hands in the vicinity of the face and head. Strikes to the head and face can kill and permanently maim. You can kill without meaning to in the heat of the moment.

If this is something you're intent on avoiding at all costs stay away from weapons with that capability.

OTOH, if someone has invaded your home the reasonable assumption is that your life is in danger and a lethal response is warranted. This understanding is difficult for most people to come to and they don't want to deal mentally with the killing of another person even in defense of their lives. This conflict often causes people to make no preparations to protect themselves or make improper preparations.

BTW, you don't have spray someone directly in the face with pepper spray to be effective, it just takes longer.

Also, if you look at threads on telescopic batons you'll see over and over again that cheap batons are a waste of money. The quality to make one usable costs what the various LE expandable batons cost.

JohnKSa
March 7, 2012, 02:00 AM
First of all, I wouldn't choose an impact weapon if I were looking for something "non-lethal".

Second, if I were looking for an impact weapon, there's no way I'd carry something that functions only as a stick when I could carry a "stick" that also lets me see in the dark. Get a big, sturdy flashlight. Not only can you whack someone with it if the need arises, but it will also serve a very useful purpose the rest of the time. It also won't hurt that it's a fairly standard, non-threatening looking item if you do have to use it.

If you want something that's truly "non-lethal" maybe go with a Taser or something along those lines. I'm not sure that using pepper spray inside your own house is such a great idea. I think the cleanup would be a major pain.

Tim37
March 9, 2012, 12:47 PM
I don't really like pepper spray because of the fact that if I don't spray them in the face, it's not gonna do a whole lot. aim for the crotch

seriously a good ole louisville slugger is probably the easiest to get and will do the same as a baton with the added benifit that if you throw a ball and glove in your car with it its perfectly legal to carry because then its not intended as a weapon

Nematocyst
March 9, 2012, 08:29 PM
Second, if I were looking for an impact weapon, there's no way I'd carry something that functions only as a stick when I could carry a "stick" that also lets me see in the dark. Get a big, sturdy flashlight.My flashlight is an LED (Quark 123) that rides EDC in my left pocket,
and is drawn by my left hand. With it, using my thumb, I can blind with a quick flash.

My 18" stick is in my right hand.
Guess what happens after the flash.

R H Clark
March 9, 2012, 08:52 PM
Totally wrong mind set for home defense.Best way to get killed by a gun wielding burgler is to attack him with a non lethal weapon.

You either need to rethink the situation or spend your money on a steel bedroom door and some window bars.Just let him take what he wants and stay in bed.

The only way to be sure to protect yourself in any combat situation is to use "OVERWHELMING" force. A 12 gague shot gun loaded with turkey loads is the ticket.It will be overwhelming at inside the house range but won't go through the walls and kill a neighbor across the street.

You can always stay in your bedroom and call the police for non-lethal but if some crazed maniac is beating down the steel door intent on killing you just for the fun of it,you will want that shotgun.

Nematocyst
March 9, 2012, 09:25 PM
Right. But the OP asked about non-lethal defense,
so that's what we're addressing here.

sm
March 9, 2012, 10:03 PM
Brain.

DeepSouth
March 9, 2012, 10:33 PM
What happens if the intruder has a firearm?


Then he wins.

I would suggest a 12 ga with rubber buckshot, if I was trying to stay away from lethal weapons.

JohnKSa
March 9, 2012, 10:43 PM
I would suggest a 12 ga with rubber buckshot...Rubber buckshot is likely to be lethal at home-defense ranges and with direct fire. It's designed to be skipped off the ground at longer ranges, not fired directly at someone at close range.My flashlight is an LED (Quark 123) that rides EDC in my left pocket, and is drawn by my left hand. With it, using my thumb, I can blind with a quick flash.

My 18" stick is in my right hand.
Guess what happens after the flash. Sure, sounds good. Or you could have an 18" flashlight and skip the stick. Same result, one less thing to carry, an extra hand free, and the extra bonus is that a big flashlight doesn't instantly scream "weapon" like an 18" stick does.

Nematocyst
March 9, 2012, 11:02 PM
I agree to disagree, Mr. JohnKSa.

JohnKSa
March 10, 2012, 12:17 AM
I'm not going to be offended--variety is what makes forums interesting. ;)

What part do you disagree with?

4kbeard
March 10, 2012, 03:38 AM
For ease of use and carry outside the house I'd go with a stout walking stick/cane. The Scotts had a good thing going with their knob topped black thorn walking sticks. You can lean on it and it has the reach advantage over an extendable baton. It is faster than a baseball bat. And as we all know, higher velocity = more damage at impact.
A crook top can gives the advantage of being able to hook a limb (leg, wrist, neck, ect.) while also being able to hang on your fore arm or the back of a chair.

hso
March 10, 2012, 02:30 PM
The Scotts ... knob topped black thorn walking sticks.

That was the Irish, but your point is well taken.

hso
March 10, 2012, 02:33 PM
I would suggest a 12 ga with rubber buckshot, if I was trying to stay away from lethal weapons.

No, that's a lethal weapon used at close range. They're used for riot control at longer ranges with the intent to disperse crowds. Their use at household ranges is lethal.

kBob
March 11, 2012, 09:27 PM
IF (notice capitalization) you have good training and experince with some form of stick fighting or bayonet drill....you might consider a straw broom with a good stout handle.

Think of it as a short bo or a quaterstaff or a long walking stick. If it makes you feel less silly remove the straw broom portion and leave the one inch thick stick.

Lay on Mc Duff!


(don't worry regulars I shall soon get back where I belong among the firearms crowd!)

-kBob

leadcounsel
March 11, 2012, 09:32 PM
A Giant Net??? Kidding aside...

And just what do you plan to do with this injured detainee while waiting for the cops? What about his friends?

Your thought process has more questions than answers. You cannot effectively 'kinda' defend yourself from an unknown assailant, attacker, weapons, motivations, etc.

"Wounding" someone will nearly certainly cause many big problems for you in the form of civil action, police action, etc. Just a really really bad idea to approach self defense with this mindset.

baylorattorney
March 12, 2012, 01:21 AM
Baboons.

Nematocyst
March 12, 2012, 09:48 PM
The Scotts ... knob topped black thorn walking sticks.
That was the Irish, but your point is well taken.

I'm Scots/Irish, best of both worlds.

Add an Irish element (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkI4LDf6zbc&feature=related) to the Sottish highlanders,
and you've likely got a serious force with which to contend.

Add some short swords, long swords, broad swords,
bastard swords, and axes, and Katie bar the door.

Add some AR's, AK's, and a howitzer (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/155fire.jpg),
and even Katie can't bar the door.

Tasmaniac
March 13, 2012, 01:13 AM
I recently ordered an Irish blackthorn cudgel from Liam at Old Shillelagh Stick Makers to complement my walking stick.

http://misticshillelagh.tripod.com/index.html

It's about 18" long with a lead-filled head. It doesn't have the reach of the walking stick but it would certainly come in handy as a last line of defense. I'm hoping it will be delivered this week and I'll post a pic later.

hso
March 13, 2012, 01:15 AM
In many jurisdictions you would find something with a lead insert to get you into a lot of trouble if taken off the wall as opposed to a simple bat.

Tasmaniac
March 13, 2012, 01:28 AM
I don't believe Texas has any such restrictions on the use of an item such as a lead-filled cudgel in the home. However, it definitely cannot be carried in a vehicle.

baylorattorney
March 13, 2012, 08:48 AM
Hellah guard dogs?


Waste not want not. :)

Loosedhorse
March 13, 2012, 09:13 AM
I've been looking for a good non-lethal self/home defense weapon and have had my eye on a telescopic steel rod.Bludgeons are per se lethal weapons; using them is using lethal force.

Most use-of-force continua don't include a "non-lethal" category. The label "less-lethal" better recognizes the fact that people can die (and have died) after being Tased or OC'd. Or punched. And definitely after being clubbed.

Personally, I think the best non-lethal force is a verbal warning. From cover.No, that's a lethal weapon used at close range.In the hands of a non-LEO uncertified in its use, I believe that shooting a shotgun would be considered lethal force, no matter its ammo, at any effective range. Similarly, a knife or a baton can definitely be used as less-lethal force in the hands of someone well trained in such uses. But getting a court to recognize any non-LEO use of a knife or bludgeon as something other than lethal force would be very tough.I don't believe Texas has any such restrictions on the use of an item such as a lead-filled cudgel in the home.I agree: even in MA, such a weapon may not be carried, but there is no restriction on owning it. Of course, a DA could paint your using a "prohibited" (for carry) weapon as showing intentions other than SD/HD.

jwsracin
March 14, 2012, 01:02 AM
saw a cool bat with a flashlight made in the end of it, thought of some good ways to use it. might git me one , one of these days

sniper762
March 14, 2012, 05:50 PM
If it aint lethal.....it aint home defense worthy.

bubba in ca
March 15, 2012, 04:04 PM
Read up on the Tueller Drill before you get too deep into less than lethal.

I understand the need for civilian HD in very limited circumstances, such as a KNOWN hazard such as from a mentally insufficient but not feloneous relative or neighbor, etc. A 1" 4 foot wooden dowel might come in handy, if you have the training to use it. Dang cheaper than all the wizbang options, too.

For the other 99% of HD situations, read up on the Tueller Drill.

conw
March 15, 2012, 04:15 PM
Read up on the Tueller Drill before you get too deep into less than lethal.

I'm not sure I understand. Distance and reaction speed don't really have much to do with being able to justify use of lethal force or drawing (which is essentially legally the threshold where you have initiated lethal force) a handgun against an unarmed or non-lethal threat.

Use non-lethal options for non-lethal-threats, and use lethal options if/when those threats become lethal. That is one reason it makes sense to have more than one strategy. The Tueller drill is a teaching tool and legally admissible test that gives people a better ability to judge distance when deploying lethal force against a lethal threat with a melee type weapon, i.e. knife, bat, machete, whatever.

Since 7 yards is pretty much the accepted distance for the Tueller drill, I read you as either suggesting not to let any potential BGs get within 7 yards of you, ever, or else as somehow misinterpreting the "point" of the Tueller drill, which relates more to decisive use of lethal force in situations where such ability is present.

sugarmaker
March 15, 2012, 04:34 PM
My mother in law - they'd still be trying to leave days later.

Vermonter
March 16, 2012, 12:37 PM
Better do some reading http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/sections.cfm?Title=13&Chapter=085

We have very few weapons laws but there's a few you should be aware of.

Note that although "Aiming a gun at another" is listed as a misdemeanor in the link above it usually results in an aggravated assault (felony) charge or at least reckless endangerment. Unless it's for self-defense. See http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/fullsection.cfm?Title=13&Chapter=019&Section=01024

In general any legal proceedings in Vermont are heavily biased according to how good of a lawyer you can afford.

sniper762
March 17, 2012, 11:28 AM
the level of force to use (even by law) is enough force to ovecome the opposing force.

i can guarantee you that the intruder's level of force will not be "nonlethal"

Lee D
March 17, 2012, 12:01 PM
non lethal? post some signs on the doors and windows stating something like "Dobermans dont call 911"...nothing deters the badguys like the threat of a big dog.

Tasmaniac
March 17, 2012, 06:56 PM
http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu195/Bombadil70/001-8.jpg

vtuck2
March 17, 2012, 10:15 PM
Quote:
""Wounding" someone will nearly certainly cause many big problems for you in the form of civil action, police action, etc. Just a really really bad idea to approach self defense with this mindset."

Guys,

We are in Texas. Both of our young adult sons are CHL holders. I consider that both of them are most vulnerable to an assault when walking from their car to their job or from their job to their car. In both cases they would be unarmed.

And now that they do have CHLs, not only do I worry about them being assaulted, I also worry about them being assaulted and responding in a way that is deemed a "bad shoot" resulting in prosecution.

But under either scenario, armed or unarmed, I most worry about their being attacked with an edged weapon.

I had not thought about this before they flew the coop because they were both in a small Texas town. But now, they're in big cities, both of which are concrete jungles.

I've read about clubs (illegal), canes (supposedly legal but not really an option for a young man), and defense umbrellas (better than a cane but still not so good unless it's raining.

I've also heard people - even the moderators - mention "sticks". This causes a certain amount of confusion because I'm not clear about how a stick would be considered to be anything except a club.

I've also considered those honkin' big flash lights. In fact, I've carried one and once, on a subway train in Atlanta, genuinely thought I was gonna have to use it.

Today, in my wife's tool box, I happened to see a "unipod" that is designed to steady a camera. It's really not significantly different from a "shooter's stick" or telescoping walking stick.

Have any of you thought of something that would be useful in a parry and thrust defense against a knife attack? Given their ages and circumstances, a camera unipod is the best thing I've thought of up to now, followed by a self defense umbrella and a big flashlight. Anything else come to mind other than pepper spray?

V

Owen Sparks
March 18, 2012, 02:48 AM
Many common things in your daily environment can be used as weapons. A simple stick can be about as effective as anything short of a firearm provided it has sufficient mass (a solid pound or so). How many common things that serve other functions are straight cylinders? Tubes, rods, handles, pipes, etc. You can almost always have something perfectly legal in your vehicle or close by that can be used as a fighting stick.

Need an example?

I sometimes carry in inexpensive two piece pool cue in a sheath. The heavy butt end makes a fine weapon and the light half is just a prop. I walked all over downtown Memphis with this thing slung over my shoulder like a sword scabbard and no one gave it a second glance. As far as I know pool cues are legal everywhere and no one could prove that I was not on the way to play 8 ball somewhere. If bad came to worse I could draw the heavy end and get it in to action in just a few seconds because I practice drawing and swinging regularly.

kim breed
March 18, 2012, 10:37 AM
It is always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Bayou Redd
March 19, 2012, 09:06 PM
The sharpening steel in your butcher block!!!

It almost always is right where you think it should be...

It has a handguard for knife protection and glancing blows...

A swat on the wrist will break it and force a drop of whatever they are carrying...

A swat on the knee will bring down anyone, including a pcp'er...

It is pointed enough to do damage for thrusting especially if you understand pressure points...

Now I do have a bit of short stick training, so for a quick weapon to handle an immediate pop-tart steeler close at hand, this is a nice choice; otherwise with a couple seconds more, the culprit will taste my 20 guage auto or my 30 carbine...

gigemlaw
March 19, 2012, 09:25 PM
If you are unwilling to use deadly force to protect yourself and your family I'd go with a big dog and a pre-determined escape plan.

Odd Job
March 19, 2012, 09:34 PM
How about 12 gauge baton rounds (2 to a cartridge)?

Redlg155
March 19, 2012, 09:38 PM
Kubaton along with the training needed for effective application. They come in keychain models that look harmless enough, but in th right hands, can stun an attacker. It can also be used against pressure points or to perform a wrist lock against an aggressor. These are great when in a weapons free environment where oc spray,
tasers and firearms are not allowed or when transitioning to areas where you keep your firearm

87Theworld
March 19, 2012, 11:13 PM
Why put your self in harms way it's way to easy to get disarmed with a stick. A gun would still be the best solution you wouldn't most need to actually shoot an intruder for them to get the msg to leave. Most intruders work with someone else so look out for at least another person. You might want to seriously think of just running out of your own home instead of confronting someone with that weapon honestly.

R H Clark
March 22, 2012, 01:33 AM
Don't fool yourself.Real fights are short,brutal and most of the time on the ground.You are not going to be dancing around poking pressure points with a little stick.

rjrivero
March 22, 2012, 01:53 AM
Canned foods in a sock. LINK HERE. (http://www.wtol.com/story/10844926/updated-can-of-peas-helps-vistula-victim-save-her-life)
Wait. That's actually LETHAL.....LINK HERE (http://www.wtol.com/story/11024247/mother-of-man-beaten-during-possible-break-in-wants-justice-for-son).

sirsloop
March 22, 2012, 02:00 AM
Why bring a bat to a gun fight? Perp is in your home with ill intent and you want to show pity at the risk of your own or your family's life? That's my thinking anyways... I wouldn't plan on making it a fair fight.

Silly things can be lethal... a pen, a fork, a wine glass, a coffee table, a flight of stairs, the water in my dog bowl. I wouldn't attempt to submit a perp with any of them.

thefamcnaj
March 22, 2012, 02:44 AM
If your looking for non leathel, then impact weapons wouldn't seem to be the way to go.
I'm thinking you are going to be limited to oc spray, a taser, or a dog thats trained to defend and cease attack on command.
I'm lookng around my "man cave" as I type this and I see: golf clubs, and autograghed base ball bad, a long black light on the wall, my edc knives etc. If I walk into the garage I see socket wrenches, hammers, screw drivers, lawn equipmeant, etc. All of these things could potentially be used for self defense, how ever they all can be leathel.
If you do God for bid ever have an intruder and he's armed, the odds most likely wouldn't be in your favor.
There are some resonably priced revolvers, for people on a budget. My cousin is a lot like you as in the fact he's fresh out of school and stretched for money. He picked up a used Rossi for 215$. Not his ideal gun but will suffice until he's in a better position financially.

av8usn
March 22, 2012, 02:37 PM
Keep a can of wasp spray handy. If that fails be fast on your feet...

wsteveg
April 5, 2012, 12:42 AM
I have to think a great pepper spray should be considered. I got a ton of info from the old posts here and wrote a review of what I think the top ones are. Some are stronger than bear sprays today but others are 1/100 of that. (would love feedback)
I found this here in the old stuff. This would be at the top. He was not even sprayed direct.
I carry a 1.9 oz can of the Bodyguard Hi-Power spray (forced cone) rated at 3 million SHU. Its a 15% OC solution with a 3.0 CRC level. Its really bad stuff. Ive recently learned that it is no longer being manufactured by Defense Technolgies as it was too strong for police use. The main complaint was its decontamination time. Ive fired a 1/2 second burst in my garage and tried to walk over to the area. I couldnt breathe, i started violently sneezing and my noze felt like it was closing.. as well and becoming full of snot. my eyes started to burn, as well as my lips. I ran out of there and closed the door beind me. Even 15 minutes later, it was still intolerable.

http://wsteveg.hubpages.com/hub/Pepper-Spray-Choosing-the-Best-Does-it-Work

Tomcat47
April 5, 2012, 12:49 AM
A full grown Great Pyrenees should do the trick.

OP Said Non - Lethal! ......... :D


I would have to say Short Sticks in Close Quarters....but the non lethal aspect could have different outcomes depending on the situation and willingness to comply.....:evil:

wsteveg
April 5, 2012, 01:31 AM
Has anyone ever used these guys? http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/Pepper-Gel-p-1-c-580.html

JShirley
April 5, 2012, 04:25 PM
With gel you absolutely have to HIT the threat, since you're shooting a coherent stream. The good news is that it can be used indoors without dosing everyone in the building.

wsteveg
April 11, 2012, 05:03 PM
Thanks. I was wondering and thinking the gel could have a flaw.

I bought the Commander from udap. 15% 3 mil shu and 3% MC.


This small 4.25 X 1.25 wide may be a little weak on the power/range (it was the 6-7 feet it said but not much more if anything) I was hoping for a little more. The bigger the can the more the range

An 8 mph crosswind took it pretty good. I watch the bulk ( or all) of the yellow cone go right around a 3 foot wide tree at 6 foot.

dprice3844444
April 11, 2012, 05:37 PM
Keep a can of wasp spray handy

man,talk about nasty stuff when hit in the eyes.this stuff is automatic er visit.

22-rimfire
April 12, 2012, 12:33 PM
For me, a cane works about the best as they are ubiquitous and not assumed to be a weapon outside the home. You see more and more people carrying canes these days and I know it is for self defense and not because they need the assistance for walking.

Owen Sparks
April 13, 2012, 11:08 PM
A sturdy one piece fire place poker can serve as a weapon in the home. If you live somewhere like England where commonors are forbidden weapons it will look good in court because it would appear as if you grabed it up spontaniously withought premeditation or forethought.

hso
April 14, 2012, 01:18 AM
Americans shouldn't make assumptions about what will "look good" in foreign courts. Issues on self defense are often more complex than what we think they are in other countries.

SUPRonin
April 14, 2012, 01:47 AM
I think of it like this.
If someone is planning to enter your home, then they have probably been watching you and learning your routines.
If they are brave enough to come in while you're home, then it's safe to assume they intend to cause you harm or worse.
Based on this, my philosophy is that I will defend myself with any and all means necessary to protect my family. There is probably more than one of them, and they will be prepared. Buy a 12 gauge, set up for home defense. You still want non-lethal? Okay, Hit him with the butt-stock.

Hamilton Felix
April 14, 2012, 02:16 PM
My wife and I both keep very lethal weapons handy. We're not interested in up-close grappling with someone who has already invaded our home and threatens our family.

Our only concesson to "non-lethal" might be our 3D LED MagLites (the "handy bludgeon size") which are much easier to find on a nightstand in the dark then our small SureFire EDC lights.

Pepper spray indoors would seem to work to everyone's harm, not just the badguy. Perhaps gel would be an exception.

Outdoors, the rules differ. But in the home, if he's within 21 feet and not already complying with orders to go prone, Tueller would say "shoot him now!"

hso
April 14, 2012, 07:30 PM
The entire idea of voluntarily limiting yourself to less lethal weapons for home defense is seriously flawed.

If someone has broken into your home you should expect to have to defend your and your family members lives. If you can't have a firearm for whatever reason then pick the most effective means of stopping the threat as close to instantly as possible. Anything less is beyond reason.

wsteveg
April 14, 2012, 07:40 PM
I just got a testimonial on the UDAP 15% 3 MIl SHU 3MC Commander Pepper Spray.

My son called and said his mom picked up the Commander and playing around sprayed a tiny amount in the house. Just a quickest tap.
He said it was brutal,could not breathe that they both started coughing, sneezing and burning.
He said he could not imagine what it would be like to be hit with a real shot.

Just what I read on an old post here of the same formula of another brand: "I carry a 1.9 oz can of the Bodyguard Hi-Power spray (forced cone) rated at 3 million SHU. Its a 15% OC solution with a 3.0 CRC level. Its really bad stuff. I've recently learned that it is no longer being manufactured by Defense Technologies as it was too strong for police use. The main complaint was its decontamination time. I've fired a 1/2 second burst in my garage and tried to walk over to the area. I couldn't breathe, I started violently sneezing and my nose felt like it was closing.. as well and becoming full of snot. my eyes started to burn, as well as my lips. I ran out of there and closed the door behind me. Even 15 minutes later, it was still intolerable."

bubba in ca
April 14, 2012, 11:09 PM
a sharp stick about 4 feet long--it's non-lethal as long as he stays 4 feet away!

Cheap, easy, leave one in the shed, leave one in the garage, etc.

Paris
April 16, 2012, 12:24 AM
http://www.mkballistics.com/specs/MKB12%20GAUGE%20Ammo.htm

Samari Jack
April 18, 2012, 11:47 AM
if you are looking for cheap, try 36" to 42" of #4 or #5 (1/2" or 5/8" steel rebar used to reinforce concrete. It has ridges to gripe the concrete making easy to hold at any part of the length. Paint black (harder to see plus prevents rust). Get two, one for each hand. Even if a bad guy catches one in his hand odds are you will break whatever it hits. Drop low and counter with the other one going low, knees, back of the calves, ankles, etc.

Hide several around the house, giving easy access.

Next step up in expense would be a taser, the bark here, bite over there kind that also have the duel role of working by close contact if you miss or there is a second intruder. Like the Taser C2. http://www.taser.com/

Ultimately, if none of the above meets the need for what you want, retreat to a closed door, low light panic room. Identify the intruder as not being a friendly, use a 12 ga with #1 buckshot.

Having some type of warning system in your home is likely the most important thing. BG tend to try to sneak in. Know they are there is the first line of defense. A well lighted exterior, locked windows and doors, aluminum drink cans 1/4 full of pebbles, with monofilament line stretched between them at windows or in halls.

The Christmas movie "Home Alone" shows just how ingenious and cheap, using our minds for defense can be.

elrowe
April 18, 2012, 12:03 PM
I vote for a well-written will, you'll most likely need it after you whack a knife-wielding meth-head with a stick.

Kleanbore
April 18, 2012, 12:21 PM
Posted by av8usn: Keep a can of wasp spray handy.You do not want to do that.

First, wasp spray is not classified as a less than lethal weapon. Second, its use against a human being violates a Federal law. The law contains no provision for a defense of justification. The maximum penalties are extremely severe, and the case would be prosecuted by an Assistant United States Attorney and tired in a United States District Court.

See this (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7552709&postcount=53).

Samari Jack
April 18, 2012, 10:51 PM
You do not want to do that.

First, wasp spray is not classified as a less than lethal weapon. Second, its use against a human being violates a Federal law. The law contains no provision for a defense of justification. The maximum penalties are extremely severe, and the case would be prosecuted by an Assistant United States Attorney and tired in a United States District Court.

See this (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7552709&postcount=53).
I read the link. Now that is sad, to think if someone broke into my house with the intent to cause bodily harm and I managed to get my hands on a can of wasp spray instead of being kill, maimed or rape, the purp could sue me or have me put in jail.

Sad state our country is in.

JohnKSa
April 19, 2012, 12:22 AM
Now that is sad, to think if someone broke into my house with the intent to cause bodily harm and I managed to get my hands on a can of wasp spray instead of being kill, maimed or rape, the purp could sue me or have me put in jail.I guess you could look at it that way. Or you could look at it from the perspective that if you need to use deadly force in self-defense there are better options--like fireams which are both legal and likely more effective.

And, if you need to use something in a situation where non-lethal force is applicable, there are better options there too--like pepper spray or mace. They're legal, likely to be more effective than wasp-spray and also not likely to maim the person. The latter should be a concern for someone who has INTENTIONALLY chosen not to use lethal means for defense.

The point being, why use something illegal when there are legal options that will likely work better as well.

hso
April 20, 2012, 10:37 AM
Also, intentionally purchasing and keeping a can of wasp spray around as a defensive tool might be difficult to explain knowing it can blind and permanently harm someone when you could just purchase defensive chemical spray that is designed not to. If you're going to purchase a chemical defensive tool, get one that is designed to minimize the permanent harm to the person you're forced to use it on and avoid all the complicated issues around something with clear warnings on the label. It's just plain stupid to buy wasp spray instead of defensive sprays if defensive sprays are an option open to you.

Owen Sparks
April 20, 2012, 06:08 PM
If you have room for a big can of wasp and hornet spray you have room for one of those big fire extinguisher cans of pepper spray. It would be much more effective as it puts out a cone shaped fog rather than a sharp stream.

LeonCarr
April 20, 2012, 06:34 PM
Don't play games when it comes to defense of your home. A good used pump shotgun can be found for less than 200 bucks.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

allaroundhunter
April 20, 2012, 07:19 PM
You do not want to do that.

First, wasp spray is not classified as a less than lethal weapon. Second, its use against a human being violates a Federal law. The law contains no provision for a defense of justification. The maximum penalties are extremely severe, and the case would be prosecuted by an Assistant United States Attorney and tired in a United States District Court.

See this.

This really is pathetic.....

It's just plain stupid to buy wasp spray instead of defensive sprays if defensive sprays are an option open to you.

What if you aren't planning on using it as a weapon, it is just the only thing you have available to you?
If I am jumped in my garage and do not have a more conventional weapon available to me (like when I am mowing), I will grab whatever I can. Hedge clippers, tire iron, or wasp spray; heck, I would swing the lawn mower if I had to.....Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


But for a dedicated "less-lethal" home defense weapon....just use your phone and call 911......

Nematocyst
April 20, 2012, 07:51 PM
But for a dedicated "less-lethal" home defense weapon....
just use your phone and call 911......

And as Hso is fond of saying, and we all know,
when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

Needles
April 20, 2012, 08:02 PM
I'm not going to lecture on attitude, weaponry, etc. You can get a waxwood staff for about $20 at any martial arts supply store, and you can get a collapsible baton at BudK or Sportsman's Guide for $30 0r less. BudK used to have kobutans for $3.99. Whatever you pick, get some training. A guy with a bat or a stick is pretty easy to disarm; a trained guy with a stick can take a katana away from a samurai. A long stick is hard to use indoors. Many good Tae Kwon Do instructors can teach you defense techniques with a crook handle walking stick.

JohnKSa
April 20, 2012, 09:21 PM
What if you aren't planning on using it as a weapon, it is just the only thing you have available to you?
If I am jumped in my garage and do not have a more conventional weapon available to me (like when I am mowing), I will grab whatever I can. Hedge clippers, tire iron, or wasp spray;I would too, if that's all I had and my life or another innocent life depended on it. Then I'd hope that things worked out in the courts.

But that's an entirely different story. The OP was asking about the "best non-lethal self/home defense weapon", and a weapon that is likely to maim and that is illegal to use for self/home defense certainly isn't the "best non-lethal self/home defense weapon" by any stretch of the imagination.

Redlg155
April 21, 2012, 11:29 AM
Don't fool yourself.Real fights are short,brutal and most of the time on the ground.You are not going to be dancing around poking pressure points with a little stick.

Just curious..how many "real"fights have you been in? I've worked in Corrections for the last 14 years. I have been through 3 riots and countless situations where I have had to use force. Some were one on one while others involved being on a cell extraction team. A good number of the inmates are easily able to fight through chemical agent exposure. I've used pressure points in many situations to help maintain control of a situation AFTER the initial violence of the confrontation and the situation is at a point where targeting a pressure point does not expose me to a separate threat.

In many instances I would have welcomed a Kubaton, but I have used a mini mag flashlight in a pinch.

The big difference between a public and an institutional situation is that in most instances on the "outside" you should use whatever means possible to stop the threat and then disengage to retreat to safety. However...this is not always possible. Lately we have seen a rash of incidences where passengers on a plane have had to subdue others, or even the pilot. In these situations the ability to use alternate weapons and pressure points can mean the difference between life and death.

JShirley
April 21, 2012, 12:04 PM
You are not going to be dancing around poking pressure points with a little stick.

1. I don't "dance".

2. I prefer keeping threats at a distance. Even if I don't have a firearm, there are still ways to deliver force over distance.

3. I like to whack the pressure points, not poke them. With a BIG stick. Though as my now-deceased former best friend Byron, who worked at an ER pointed out, everyone he'd seen who'd been attacked with a 2x4...was dead. He suggested using lethal force- shooting- anyone who attempted to attack me with a stick. I am perfectly capable of using small stick-like objects, too.

I have no especial desire to kill anyone, but I'm not overly attached to not killing threats, either. I just want to keep myself and my family safe. I'll use any tool at my disposal. Firearms are usually the most effective easily learned and available defensive tools.

John

hso
April 21, 2012, 01:15 PM
What if you aren't planning on using it as a weapon, it is just the only thing you have available to you?

Then that's what you use, like a hoe or skillet or whatever is at hand. Intentionally buying wasp spray as a defensive spray is what's foolish if you can have defense spray instead.

theicemanmpls
April 21, 2012, 02:36 PM
Here at THR the issue of wasp spray has been round and round. IMO, it is possible the mods don't advocate its use because of a law suit that could happen down the road.

ONLY USE WASP SPRAY ON WASPS.

For home defense I recommend layers.

Burglar/robbery defenses in driveway, yards, exterior. Lighting, appearance, etc.

Quality alarm system with panic alarms though out the house that not only sound siren and lights but send a signal to alarm company through at least two paths. phone, radio, cell.

One must understand that there are folks out there who will not keep a firearm in the house. They need something to keep the goblins at bay. Some of those same folks want non-lethal defense. They don't want to cause any damage to anyone. Even to criminals who might kill them.

My recommendation for those folks is the above plus chemical of their choice, and or a canine with training.

ACP
April 21, 2012, 02:39 PM
1) a dog, or dogs

2) pepper spray

3) Taser

Redlg155
April 21, 2012, 03:22 PM
Of course the most effective method is to just crap on yourself and curl into the fetal position while moaning pitifully. Even the most hardened criminal will leave you alone.

I'm not sure if this works on bears or if it just enhances the dining experience.:D

hso
April 21, 2012, 08:17 PM
Second, its use against a human being violates a Federal law.

No, that's a common misunderstanding based on a misinterpretation of existing and proposed fed law.

The issue is the civil liability of INTENTIONALLY purchasing wasp spray instead of chemical defense pray because of the permanent harm and label warnings associated with that potential.

Owen Sparks
April 22, 2012, 12:00 AM
In the absence of a firearm there is no better fight stopper for blunt force trauma and nothing delivers it better than a heavy stick or club.

rodinal220
April 22, 2012, 12:58 AM
A 5 cell Kel-lite can be set for stun in the hands of a skilled operator.

Nematocyst
April 22, 2012, 10:52 PM
In the absence of a firearm there is no better fight stopper for blunt force trauma
and nothing delivers it better than a heavy stick or club.

I'm thinking there's a reason that cops carry batons into riot situations rather than wasp spray or cell phones.

alaskanativeson
April 25, 2012, 04:45 AM
A full grown Great Pyrenees should do the trick.
The lethal home defense weapon would be a German Shepherd. :-)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g235/Rodgersplace/Shaunaandthedogs.jpg

They're wonderful, sweet and friendly dogs. I've also seen the big brown one (Strider) pull out a vicious streak that would make a T-Rex run like a little girl. It was our first SCA outing, and we saw what the protective side of a German Shepherd looked like. Both terrifying and comforting at the same time.

(Seriously, though, threaten a Pyr's owner, and that white monster of a dog will throw the non-lethal weapon crap out the window as well. They're great dogs.)

alaskanativeson
April 25, 2012, 04:54 AM
In many instances I would have welcomed a Kubaton, but I have used a mini mag flashlight in a pinch.
On a trip to a Mexican border town a few years back I had an incident where I was followed to my car and grabbed by someone just as I got to it. I had seen him following me, and since there was no one around I felt I could count on for help, I was prepared with my Cold Steel Sharkie pen. One "poke" was all it took. It wasn't because I'm some Kung Fu Ninja or James Bond trainer, it was because I paid attention to my surroundings, I noticed and prepared for a problem, and I had the proper mindset to respond when I needed to. Like Gunnery Sgt. Hartman said:

"Your rifle is only a tool. It is a hard heart that kills."

The tool does matter, but the most important tool is the mind.

Nematocyst
April 25, 2012, 05:41 PM
One "poke" was all it took. It wasn't because I'm some Kung Fu Ninja or James Bond trainer, it was because I paid attention to my surroundings, I noticed and prepared for a problem, and I had the proper mindset to respond when I needed to. Great story that contains wisdom for all in a large percentage of situations, I'll bet.

Not all, I'm sure. There are reportedly those situations where a .45 ACP bounces off the forehead of a perp. But given a choice between a barehanded axhand strike, a set of keys and a kubotan, I'll take the latter. If I can have my 18" hardwood stick in addition, I'm a happy camper.

m6tlogistics
May 2, 2012, 03:25 AM
wasp spray,oven cleaner-use your head-you know what is non-lethal or otherwise

hso
May 2, 2012, 08:06 AM
See posts 79, 80, 81, 86 for the explanation of why INTENTIONALLY purchasing wasp/oven spray to use as a chemical defense spray is the wrong thing to do.

Owen Sparks
May 2, 2012, 03:23 PM
If you really want to use some sort of spray for HD there are much better choices than wasp spray and oven cleaner. You can get pepper spray, CS tear gas or a combination of the two in a large canister the size of a small fire extinguisher that will vastly outpreform the typical pocket models.

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