MR.G
February 12, 2004, 03:56 PM
What do you think about using a Kel-Tec .380 as a primary CCW ?
Kel-Tec .380 as a primary CCW ?
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alamo
February 12, 2004, 04:02 PM
A great idea. I've got one in my pocket now in a Hedley holster.
Obiwan
February 12, 2004, 04:07 PM
As long as you understand, and are comfortable with, the limitations of the .380 round.
And your weapon is accurate and reliable..
Go ahead!
And your weapon is accurate and reliable..
Go ahead!
Russ
February 12, 2004, 04:16 PM
It was the best choice for me based on the clothes I have to wear to work. I have one with me as an always carry gun. I like it a lot. I'm glad they came out with such a light .380. I hear they may be working on a light weight 9mm but that will take them awhile to put out if they can.
OF
February 12, 2004, 04:28 PM
The .380 is a poor choice in a defensive handgun round. But it's better than carrying nothing. I would only recommend a .380 if you have absolutely no other option. If you must carry .380, carry FMJ.
- Gabe
- Gabe
azrael
February 12, 2004, 04:59 PM
Good gun...got one in my pocket as I type this.
Double Naught Spy
February 12, 2004, 05:54 PM
If that is the best you can do, then it is the best you can do. If you have the option of carrying something better and simply choose to carry the KelTec .380, then the KelTec is an unwise choice as a primary CCW.
Of course, you may have specific clothing limits that won't allow for a larger caliber and a more noted combat type of gun such as a Glock or 1911. Maybe you have finacial limits and can ONLY afford the purchase of one gun that you will carry for CCW and you have no hopes of getting a better caliber larger gun. If so, then the KelTec is the best you can do. It is great for concealment but the gun's size, accuracy, and caliber really limit its capabilities as a CCW gun.
I like a gun that is readily viable at 0 yards, 10, and out to the 15-20 range. While the small guns like the KelTec (or my Colt Pony) do fine in the 0-7 or 8 yard distance, I notice speed of target aquisition and marksmanship tends to decline markedly for many folks beyond that point. With a more typical carry gun, the problem isn't nearly as pronounced. The problem isn't that the gun isn't capable or that the shooters are not capable, but that the fairly crude sights and short sight radius make the little guns less than ideal for longer CCW range fighting. There are some people who practice enough to be good with them, but from what I have seen, that number of people is small.
There is a very definite price for small size and carry convenience and it includings lack of stopping power marksmanship beyond short ranges.
Before anyone comments, I know there are folks who can do great things with small guns. I have seen a guy pop a ballloon at 50 yards with a derringer with no sights. That doesn't mean I can do it or that most of us can do it. Most of the folks I see with tiny guns are either very slow at distances over 10 yards or aren't very accurate.
Of course, you may have specific clothing limits that won't allow for a larger caliber and a more noted combat type of gun such as a Glock or 1911. Maybe you have finacial limits and can ONLY afford the purchase of one gun that you will carry for CCW and you have no hopes of getting a better caliber larger gun. If so, then the KelTec is the best you can do. It is great for concealment but the gun's size, accuracy, and caliber really limit its capabilities as a CCW gun.
I like a gun that is readily viable at 0 yards, 10, and out to the 15-20 range. While the small guns like the KelTec (or my Colt Pony) do fine in the 0-7 or 8 yard distance, I notice speed of target aquisition and marksmanship tends to decline markedly for many folks beyond that point. With a more typical carry gun, the problem isn't nearly as pronounced. The problem isn't that the gun isn't capable or that the shooters are not capable, but that the fairly crude sights and short sight radius make the little guns less than ideal for longer CCW range fighting. There are some people who practice enough to be good with them, but from what I have seen, that number of people is small.
There is a very definite price for small size and carry convenience and it includings lack of stopping power marksmanship beyond short ranges.
Before anyone comments, I know there are folks who can do great things with small guns. I have seen a guy pop a ballloon at 50 yards with a derringer with no sights. That doesn't mean I can do it or that most of us can do it. Most of the folks I see with tiny guns are either very slow at distances over 10 yards or aren't very accurate.
bradvanhorn
February 12, 2004, 08:43 PM
I agree with Double Naught Spy. If your situation dictates that you carry such a small weapon, then I say the Kel-Tec .380 is an awesome choice. However, if you have the option to have something bigger and more user friendly, then I think that would serve you better. If I can carry my Beretta 96, then I will. If I need something a little smaller, I'll usually switch to my Kel-Tec P-11. And if I need to go to a pocket gun, then I'll take my P-32 (or P-3AT now that I have one). But, I know I'm fortunate to have those options, since not everyone does.
Deaf Smith
February 12, 2004, 09:30 PM
"Never do an opponet a small injury". I've owned and shot several Kel-Tec .32s and .380s (including one today, a .380). The sights being small, the grip being small, and the DAO pull limits it to a very short range weapon with little power, poor accuracy, and somewhat difficult to grab quickly with a positive grip. That put's it in the backup category, not the primary carry category. Get a better weapon for primary.
WonderNine
February 12, 2004, 10:32 PM
If you had to actually use it, you'd sure wish you had something else gunwise and caliber wise.....
That said I have a .32 in my pocket right now. :p
That said I have a .32 in my pocket right now. :p
P95Carry
February 12, 2004, 10:38 PM
My new P3AT is as yet not broke in and tested fully ...... not even done the ''fluff & buff'' yet either!
It will for most part be BUG ... but there will be times in the max heat of summer when it might well be all I can manage .. and as such ... it'll be ''some gun - better than no gun'' .... so yeah . it'd not be my choice for 1º carry but .. it's about as small as they get and .... .380 does have the edge IMO over .32 acp.:)
It will for most part be BUG ... but there will be times in the max heat of summer when it might well be all I can manage .. and as such ... it'll be ''some gun - better than no gun'' .... so yeah . it'd not be my choice for 1º carry but .. it's about as small as they get and .... .380 does have the edge IMO over .32 acp.:)
WonderNine
February 13, 2004, 12:20 AM
My new P3AT is as yet not broke in and tested fully ...... not even done the ''fluff & buff'' yet either!
It will for most part be BUG ...
I've still only fired 12 rounds through my Autauga .32 and I carry it everyday. The manual says that it's not broken in until 200 rounds....I did cycle the action quite a bit when I first got it though, broke it down and cleaned and lubed it afterwards. The problem with the Kel-Tecs is it seems like you never know when they're gonna break. Sure that's true with all guns, but with the Kel-Tecs it seems especially true.
It will for most part be BUG ...
I've still only fired 12 rounds through my Autauga .32 and I carry it everyday. The manual says that it's not broken in until 200 rounds....I did cycle the action quite a bit when I first got it though, broke it down and cleaned and lubed it afterwards. The problem with the Kel-Tecs is it seems like you never know when they're gonna break. Sure that's true with all guns, but with the Kel-Tecs it seems especially true.
citizen
February 13, 2004, 04:54 AM
Yep; sad, but apparently true......
Several months ago I witnessed a couple narrow their choice to a P3AT and purchase it. Later on I inquired and was shown their broken pistol; didn't survive it's first trip out to the shop range.........:(
(Still, I would love one for a BUG!!:cool: )
Several months ago I witnessed a couple narrow their choice to a P3AT and purchase it. Later on I inquired and was shown their broken pistol; didn't survive it's first trip out to the shop range.........:(
(Still, I would love one for a BUG!!:cool: )
Russ
February 13, 2004, 09:48 AM
I carry it because it is about the most I can given the threads I have to wear to work. I would rather carry my Kahr MK40 but its just too heavy for most situations I find myself in. Shot placement and being able to run a zig zag pattern is the key :D
M2 Carbine
February 13, 2004, 02:59 PM
I carry it all the time plus a 45 when I can.
Plus there's always three or four guns in the cars.:)
Plus there's always three or four guns in the cars.:)
mod12
February 13, 2004, 03:08 PM
wondernine, how many have you broken?
bradvanhorn
February 13, 2004, 04:52 PM
"Broken?":scrutiny: Well now, let's see, how does one truly define "broken"?;)
I've got three Kel-Tecs, and I've never had anything go wrong with any of them. Of course I don't shoot them every day, so maybe I need to TRY to break one.:)
My only problem, if you even want to think of this as a problem, was with my P-11 not reliably cycling 147gr loads. I changed to 115gr or 124gr loads, and it works like a champ.
I have always wondered about Kel-Tec's long-term durability, but during my time helping at a gun store we sold a bunch of 'em, and I never did hear of a problem with one. In fact, I always heard good things about them, which is what prompted me to take a chance on my first, the P-11.
Does anyone have any first-hand experience with breakage they can share?
I've got three Kel-Tecs, and I've never had anything go wrong with any of them. Of course I don't shoot them every day, so maybe I need to TRY to break one.:)
My only problem, if you even want to think of this as a problem, was with my P-11 not reliably cycling 147gr loads. I changed to 115gr or 124gr loads, and it works like a champ.
I have always wondered about Kel-Tec's long-term durability, but during my time helping at a gun store we sold a bunch of 'em, and I never did hear of a problem with one. In fact, I always heard good things about them, which is what prompted me to take a chance on my first, the P-11.
Does anyone have any first-hand experience with breakage they can share?
Russ
February 13, 2004, 05:04 PM
I'm sure they have been posted before but does anyone know where I can go to get a comparison of .380 to other calibers?
thanks
thanks
azrael
February 13, 2004, 05:17 PM
Russ,
Try Goldenloki.com for .380 comparisions or stoppingpower.net
Brad...My p-11 is still going after 1200 rounds and all I have replaced is the recoil springs.
Try Goldenloki.com for .380 comparisions or stoppingpower.net
Brad...My p-11 is still going after 1200 rounds and all I have replaced is the recoil springs.
mod12
February 13, 2004, 07:19 PM
brad and az, what a relief. i only have 900 rnds. thru my p11 so guess i can relax a little. i was beginning to wonder if i should send it back to kel-tec for refurbishing now instead of waiting for it to break. they fix them free for life you know. i just feel a whole lot better!
MR.G
February 13, 2004, 09:59 PM
azrael,
Your Oblivion pocket holster, for the P-3AT, looks like a great buy for $23.50.
Can I order one with a credit card, without using Paypal ? How long for delivery?
Your Oblivion pocket holster, for the P-3AT, looks like a great buy for $23.50.
Can I order one with a credit card, without using Paypal ? How long for delivery?
albanian
February 13, 2004, 10:24 PM
None of the ultra small autos have a reputation for being very reliable so it is hard to recommend any of them. I have experienced too many problems with too many small autos to really trust them. Kel-Tec seems really hit or miss, I had two of them that were not up to snuff for carry so I got rid of them. I have owned many small autos in the search for the "pefect pocket gun" but I gave up recently. I bought a S&W 642 and it is 100% reliable (big surprise). It is larger than the Kel-Tec but it feels much better knowing that it will fire all the bullets without jamming or breaking.
I don't trust autos enough until they get to be about the size of a Walther PPK or a Bersa .380. I have had good luck with those guns. That being said, I have a Beretta 21 that I carry when the 642 is even a little big.
The bottom line is, even an unreliable gun is better than nothing. Most of the time just the appearence a gun will make someone change their mind about doing whatever it was they were going to do to you. My little Beretta has been great with ammo it likes but I plan on making the first shot count if I ever need to use it.
I don't trust autos enough until they get to be about the size of a Walther PPK or a Bersa .380. I have had good luck with those guns. That being said, I have a Beretta 21 that I carry when the 642 is even a little big.
The bottom line is, even an unreliable gun is better than nothing. Most of the time just the appearence a gun will make someone change their mind about doing whatever it was they were going to do to you. My little Beretta has been great with ammo it likes but I plan on making the first shot count if I ever need to use it.
azrael
February 13, 2004, 10:31 PM
Mr. G
PM sent:D
PM sent:D
kokapelli
February 14, 2004, 10:06 AM
Russ, these are jello tests from stoppingpower.net.
S&W .357 M66 4" barrel:
Federal .357 125 gr. Hi Shok
Pen 14.00" Exp .514
Winchester .357 110 gr. Personal Defense
Pen 11.75" Exp .463
Remington .357 125 gr. Golden Saber
Pen 15.50" Exp .575
Federal .357 130 gr. Personal Defense
Pen 13.00" Exp .668
Taurus .357 Snub 2" Barrel:
Federal .357 125 gr. Hi Shok
Pen 12.00" Exp .588
Magsafe .38 52 gr. Defender
Pen 8.50" (Deepest Penetration) 8.00" (Average Penetration)
Corbon .38 110 gr. +P
Pen 16.50+" Exp N/A (left the block, not recovered)
Keltec .380 3AT ??? Barrel:
(Pdog, alittle help on barrel length?)
Corbon .380 90 gr. +P
Pen 16.50+" Exp N/A (left the block, not recovered)
Speer .380 90 gr. Gold Dot
Pen 10.50" Exp .476
Federal .380 90gr. Hydra Shok
Pen 16.50" Exp .356
FN BHP .40 5" Barrel:
Corbon .40 135 gr. Power Ball
Pen 12.00" Exp ???
GLV you got this bullet? Can you measure it for the data?
H&K USPC .40 3.62" Barrel:
Remington .40 165 gr. Golden Saber
Pen 16.00" Exp ???
Pdog, do you have this one? Measure it for me Eh?
Hornady .40 155 gr. XTP
Pen 16.50" Exp ???
Same as above…
SIG P220 .45 ACP 4.4" Barrel:
Winchester .45 230 gr. Personal Defense
Pen 19.00" Exp .614
Federal .45 230 gr. +P Tactical
Pen 10.25" Exp .772
Federal .45 230 gr. +P HST
Pen 13.50" Exp .833
Colt/Springfield 1911 .45 ACP 5" Barrel:
Federal .45 165 gr. Personal Defense (EFMJ)
Pen 9.50" Exp .747
Glock 19 9mm 4.4" Barrel:
Remington 9mm 115 gr. Bonded
Pen 13.25" Exp .610
Federal 9mm 124 gr. Tactical
Pen 11.50" Exp .540
Federal 9mm 105 gr. Personal Defense (EFMJ)
Pen 10.00" Exp .576
S&W .357 M66 4" barrel:
Federal .357 125 gr. Hi Shok
Pen 14.00" Exp .514
Winchester .357 110 gr. Personal Defense
Pen 11.75" Exp .463
Remington .357 125 gr. Golden Saber
Pen 15.50" Exp .575
Federal .357 130 gr. Personal Defense
Pen 13.00" Exp .668
Taurus .357 Snub 2" Barrel:
Federal .357 125 gr. Hi Shok
Pen 12.00" Exp .588
Magsafe .38 52 gr. Defender
Pen 8.50" (Deepest Penetration) 8.00" (Average Penetration)
Corbon .38 110 gr. +P
Pen 16.50+" Exp N/A (left the block, not recovered)
Keltec .380 3AT ??? Barrel:
(Pdog, alittle help on barrel length?)
Corbon .380 90 gr. +P
Pen 16.50+" Exp N/A (left the block, not recovered)
Speer .380 90 gr. Gold Dot
Pen 10.50" Exp .476
Federal .380 90gr. Hydra Shok
Pen 16.50" Exp .356
FN BHP .40 5" Barrel:
Corbon .40 135 gr. Power Ball
Pen 12.00" Exp ???
GLV you got this bullet? Can you measure it for the data?
H&K USPC .40 3.62" Barrel:
Remington .40 165 gr. Golden Saber
Pen 16.00" Exp ???
Pdog, do you have this one? Measure it for me Eh?
Hornady .40 155 gr. XTP
Pen 16.50" Exp ???
Same as above…
SIG P220 .45 ACP 4.4" Barrel:
Winchester .45 230 gr. Personal Defense
Pen 19.00" Exp .614
Federal .45 230 gr. +P Tactical
Pen 10.25" Exp .772
Federal .45 230 gr. +P HST
Pen 13.50" Exp .833
Colt/Springfield 1911 .45 ACP 5" Barrel:
Federal .45 165 gr. Personal Defense (EFMJ)
Pen 9.50" Exp .747
Glock 19 9mm 4.4" Barrel:
Remington 9mm 115 gr. Bonded
Pen 13.25" Exp .610
Federal 9mm 124 gr. Tactical
Pen 11.50" Exp .540
Federal 9mm 105 gr. Personal Defense (EFMJ)
Pen 10.00" Exp .576
P95Carry
February 14, 2004, 02:19 PM
P3AT barrel measures at 2 1/2" nominal.
Newton
February 14, 2004, 08:09 PM
I have one sat on the coffee table as I type.
If I was facing a shotgun or rifle I wouldn't feel too confident, but then, what would I feel confident with in a such a situation. If a street punk pulled out a knife or .38 snub, I'm sure the P-3AT would be happy to oblige. Of course it doesn't shape up to my .40 Beretta in any sense of that phrase.
But none of this applies in my home state of course, Lord forbid we should defend ourselves.
Newton
If I was facing a shotgun or rifle I wouldn't feel too confident, but then, what would I feel confident with in a such a situation. If a street punk pulled out a knife or .38 snub, I'm sure the P-3AT would be happy to oblige. Of course it doesn't shape up to my .40 Beretta in any sense of that phrase.
But none of this applies in my home state of course, Lord forbid we should defend ourselves.
Newton
Russ
February 16, 2004, 09:49 AM
Kokapelli & Azrael,
Thank you both very much for the ballistics info.
Russ
Thank you both very much for the ballistics info.
Russ
22luvr
February 16, 2004, 04:34 PM
Mine's broken in with over 250 rounds through it. It is totally reliable, accurate, and just about undetectable in the pocket. I sold my Smith 340SC because it was so fussy with ammo, was lumpy in the pocket and kicked like a Missouri mule with .357 mag loads. The P-3AT is nigh-near perfect for concealed pocket carry. I'd recommend one highly.
azrael
February 16, 2004, 04:47 PM
No worries mate:D
CZ-100
February 16, 2004, 06:45 PM
I carry one in my pocket everyday
LoneWulf
February 16, 2004, 07:07 PM
Only if I was suicidal.
Just my opinion, but Kel Tec makes crap, unreliable crap.
If you value your life, don't risk it on a Kel Tec.
If you don't value your life, go ahead enjoy your Kel Tec. :D
Just my opinion, but Kel Tec makes crap, unreliable crap.
If you value your life, don't risk it on a Kel Tec.
If you don't value your life, go ahead enjoy your Kel Tec. :D
kokapelli
February 16, 2004, 07:21 PM
LoneWulf, what do you base that opinion on?
I have two P-32s and two P-3ATs that I shoot every week. I did have a problem with the P-3ATs that were corrected quickly and have shot hundreds of rounds through them and since the repair they are 100%.
I have two P-32s and two P-3ATs that I shoot every week. I did have a problem with the P-3ATs that were corrected quickly and have shot hundreds of rounds through them and since the repair they are 100%.
WonderNine
February 16, 2004, 08:57 PM
I did have a problem with the P-3ATs that were corrected quickly
Lifetime warranties aren't much good in a brandishing situation. You know, the ones where you pull the trigger and get nothing.
They're just not for me kind of like Hi-Points and Glocks aren't for me either. Enjoy your Kel-Tecs, The selections at the gunstore would have to be pretty skinny for me to select one as a backup piece, much less my primary CCW.
If I ever buy a Kel-Tec you can come back and beat me over the head with this post. :neener:
Lifetime warranties aren't much good in a brandishing situation. You know, the ones where you pull the trigger and get nothing.
They're just not for me kind of like Hi-Points and Glocks aren't for me either. Enjoy your Kel-Tecs, The selections at the gunstore would have to be pretty skinny for me to select one as a backup piece, much less my primary CCW.
If I ever buy a Kel-Tec you can come back and beat me over the head with this post. :neener:
Larry Ashcraft
February 16, 2004, 09:05 PM
My KelTec P3AT goes bang every time... Don't stand in front of it. :)
LoneWulf
February 16, 2004, 09:31 PM
Kokapelli,
I base my opinion on two P-11's, one P-32 and the 380 that malfunctioned without hesitation.
I won't own a gun that malfucntions, even after the factory has "fixed" the gun.
Some people get ones that work, I haven't had that luck. Or maybe the universe is protecting me from dangerous unreliable weapons. ;)
There are two entire websites dedicated to "fluffing and buffing" Kel Tecs to make them work properly.
I have given them ample chances to prove themselves and they have proven themselves to be unreliable and therefore dangerous.
Check out Ktog to see how much trouble the guns can be.
http://www.ktog.org/
I will stick to Glocks and Smith revolvers to keep my butt out of the morgue. :cool:
I base my opinion on two P-11's, one P-32 and the 380 that malfunctioned without hesitation.
I won't own a gun that malfucntions, even after the factory has "fixed" the gun.
Some people get ones that work, I haven't had that luck. Or maybe the universe is protecting me from dangerous unreliable weapons. ;)
There are two entire websites dedicated to "fluffing and buffing" Kel Tecs to make them work properly.
I have given them ample chances to prove themselves and they have proven themselves to be unreliable and therefore dangerous.
Check out Ktog to see how much trouble the guns can be.
http://www.ktog.org/
I will stick to Glocks and Smith revolvers to keep my butt out of the morgue. :cool:
22luvr
February 17, 2004, 07:49 AM
Here's the flip side of your problems with Kel-Tec: I ran 1,000 rounds through my P32 without a malfunction and it was BOX-STOCK. My P-3AT appears to be heading that way too. I will admit my P11 went back to the factory but when it came back it was 100% reliable.
You also mentioned Smiths and Glocks as reliable. Well, I just dumped my Smith 340SC because it would unseat just about every type of ammo I tried in it. It was sent back to the factory to replace a cylinder that had serious face erosion. Talk about a nasty situation to have a bullet unseat and jam up against the forcing cone! That happened more than once too.
And your post about valuing your life and Kel-Tec was way over the edge. C'mon....tone it down a little.
Oh, and Wondernine: brandishing is against the law in my state and probably in yours too. Try using a better selection of words next time.
You also mentioned Smiths and Glocks as reliable. Well, I just dumped my Smith 340SC because it would unseat just about every type of ammo I tried in it. It was sent back to the factory to replace a cylinder that had serious face erosion. Talk about a nasty situation to have a bullet unseat and jam up against the forcing cone! That happened more than once too.
And your post about valuing your life and Kel-Tec was way over the edge. C'mon....tone it down a little.
Oh, and Wondernine: brandishing is against the law in my state and probably in yours too. Try using a better selection of words next time.
kokapelli
February 17, 2004, 09:33 AM
LoneWulf, Glocks fail too!
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/m30-kb.jpg
I have not seen this happen to a KelTec!
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/m30-kb.jpg
I have not seen this happen to a KelTec!
braindead0
February 17, 2004, 09:51 AM
Wait until kel-tec offers a .40 and people start re-loading for it.
The funny thing I see about Kel-tec is people brag about shooting a thousand rounds, or 1500 rounds. I had one guy on KTOG tell me "well they aren't designed to shoot 1000's of rounds".
During the warmer months I put 1000 rounds down range a month, and my wife does as well. I've put at least 8k rounds through my Taurus PT-92 with one hickup (due to operator error).
If on the other hand you have one that works realiably (i'd consider a couple hundred with no problem good enough), then go for it. I suspect your needs are different than mine.
The funny thing I see about Kel-tec is people brag about shooting a thousand rounds, or 1500 rounds. I had one guy on KTOG tell me "well they aren't designed to shoot 1000's of rounds".
During the warmer months I put 1000 rounds down range a month, and my wife does as well. I've put at least 8k rounds through my Taurus PT-92 with one hickup (due to operator error).
If on the other hand you have one that works realiably (i'd consider a couple hundred with no problem good enough), then go for it. I suspect your needs are different than mine.
mod12
February 17, 2004, 11:58 AM
how long have you been that way? keltec had a .40 but took it off the market when SOME shooters couldn't handle the recoil with their limp wrists. not because of failures. never heard of a kb with one. operator error? 900 rds. thru mine with never a burp.
just bought a S&W 669, hope it performs as well as my p11
just bought a S&W 669, hope it performs as well as my p11
mod12
February 17, 2004, 12:01 PM
should have said my p11 is a 9mm.
LoneWulf
February 17, 2004, 09:53 PM
Kokapelli,
Sure Glocks Kb from time to time, all guns do, but at least they feed, cycle and have had millions put into circulation during their era. Trillions of rounds have gone through Glocks, Kel Tec cannot say the same.
The sheer quantity of Glocks out there makes it easy to find ones that have failed, even catastrophic failures as you show.
1911's, Beretta's, HK's, etc have all had similar failures. It is easy to find a bad example of any weapon when there are millions of them out there to choose from.
Kel Tecs fail at a much higher percentage rate than Glocks, just read the gun boards. I have no stats, I know of no studies done on the subject.
People accept the failure of a cheap gun like a Kel Tec, Bryco, Jennings, etc.
It is big news when a Glock fails, since they are at the pinnacle of success, it becomes a way to knock them down a little.
It's not news when a crap gun fails, it is news when a great gun fails.
Kel Tec is a gun for those who want a cheap gun.
Did you know that Kel Tec discontinued their 40sw version because it was unreliable, even by Kel Tec standards? Blaming the failure on "limp wristing" instead of poor design was their corporate way to attempt to avoid blame.
I hear so many people praise their Kel Tec's, I am happy for them and I hope they never have any weapon fail them in their time of need.
I will stick to proven designs. Designs used worldwide in every environment on the planet. Not some poorly designed and poorly manufactured gun that has a cult following.
There are no "fluff and buff" pages for Glocks, Berettas, HK's and other quality weapons, but there is for Kel Tec. There has got to be a reason for that. Ya think?
Sure Glocks Kb from time to time, all guns do, but at least they feed, cycle and have had millions put into circulation during their era. Trillions of rounds have gone through Glocks, Kel Tec cannot say the same.
The sheer quantity of Glocks out there makes it easy to find ones that have failed, even catastrophic failures as you show.
1911's, Beretta's, HK's, etc have all had similar failures. It is easy to find a bad example of any weapon when there are millions of them out there to choose from.
Kel Tecs fail at a much higher percentage rate than Glocks, just read the gun boards. I have no stats, I know of no studies done on the subject.
People accept the failure of a cheap gun like a Kel Tec, Bryco, Jennings, etc.
It is big news when a Glock fails, since they are at the pinnacle of success, it becomes a way to knock them down a little.
It's not news when a crap gun fails, it is news when a great gun fails.
Kel Tec is a gun for those who want a cheap gun.
Did you know that Kel Tec discontinued their 40sw version because it was unreliable, even by Kel Tec standards? Blaming the failure on "limp wristing" instead of poor design was their corporate way to attempt to avoid blame.
I hear so many people praise their Kel Tec's, I am happy for them and I hope they never have any weapon fail them in their time of need.
I will stick to proven designs. Designs used worldwide in every environment on the planet. Not some poorly designed and poorly manufactured gun that has a cult following.
There are no "fluff and buff" pages for Glocks, Berettas, HK's and other quality weapons, but there is for Kel Tec. There has got to be a reason for that. Ya think?
P95Carry
February 17, 2004, 10:26 PM
Wulf ... I have been interested in your comments ... I am keen to see anti ones as much as pro .... ''levels the playing field'' so to speak!There are no "fluff and buff" pages for Glocks, Berettas, HK's and other quality weapons, but there is for Kel Tec. There has got to be a reason for that. Ya think? I would say one thing here .. KT has attempted and for most part achieved .. an astonishing excercize in miniaturization ... the makes you mention are ... effectively ... full size.
In the process of achieving this .. KT has produced a minute gun ... which I would almost expect to be potentially ''picky'' ..... it relies on a lot to perform ... very little margin for error. I would NOT from choice have mine as 1º ...... only BUG from choice. If however when mine is ''bedded in'' it performs as I expect and hope .. then it will not get large quantities of ammo put thru .. it needs proved and that's it. ....... after that it just will sit until needed ... preferably not.
I would put considerable faith in that once I am satisfied it performs ..... but would agree to being more comfortable with ''others''. Should the summer heat or circumstance however, dictate a near impossibility for CCW - then I'd be awful glad to have just this lil pup along for the ride ... than zilch! And that might literally mean ''ride'' ... when biking becomes possible again. :)
In the process of achieving this .. KT has produced a minute gun ... which I would almost expect to be potentially ''picky'' ..... it relies on a lot to perform ... very little margin for error. I would NOT from choice have mine as 1º ...... only BUG from choice. If however when mine is ''bedded in'' it performs as I expect and hope .. then it will not get large quantities of ammo put thru .. it needs proved and that's it. ....... after that it just will sit until needed ... preferably not.
I would put considerable faith in that once I am satisfied it performs ..... but would agree to being more comfortable with ''others''. Should the summer heat or circumstance however, dictate a near impossibility for CCW - then I'd be awful glad to have just this lil pup along for the ride ... than zilch! And that might literally mean ''ride'' ... when biking becomes possible again. :)
LoneWulf
February 17, 2004, 10:48 PM
P95carry,
Excellent points.
The margin for error is slim in such a small gun.
I respect what they attempted, but I don't respect what they achieved. Which is an unreliable weapon.
The reason I have owned so many is that I wanted to make it work, but alas it was not to be.
When a 9mm is fluffed and buffed, but won't even function reliably with ball ammo. There is something seriously wrong with the gun.
I shoot 10mm's, 41's, 44's, so limp wristing is not the issue, poor design and poor quality are.
Now to say something nice about Kel Tec.
I shot a buddies 40 subgun that uses Glock 22 mags and damn, that is a sweet weapon. No function problems and more than acceptable accuracy for its purpose.
Excellent points.
The margin for error is slim in such a small gun.
I respect what they attempted, but I don't respect what they achieved. Which is an unreliable weapon.
The reason I have owned so many is that I wanted to make it work, but alas it was not to be.
When a 9mm is fluffed and buffed, but won't even function reliably with ball ammo. There is something seriously wrong with the gun.
I shoot 10mm's, 41's, 44's, so limp wristing is not the issue, poor design and poor quality are.
Now to say something nice about Kel Tec.
I shot a buddies 40 subgun that uses Glock 22 mags and damn, that is a sweet weapon. No function problems and more than acceptable accuracy for its purpose.
tiberius
February 18, 2004, 12:55 AM
I have no stats, I know of no studies done on the subject. Thus, it is hearsay. Saying "Kel Tecs are unreliable" is EXACTLY like saying "Glocks Kaboom".
Kel Tecs are generally reliable and Glocks generally do not explode when fired. They ARE both quality designs however.
Kel Tecs are generally reliable and Glocks generally do not explode when fired. They ARE both quality designs however.
kokapelli
February 18, 2004, 09:06 AM
LoneWulf, where do you get this stuff? what was your source for this statement__
"Did you know that Kel Tec discontinued their 40sw version because it was unreliable, even by Kel Tec standards? Blaming the failure on "limp wristing" instead of poor design was their corporate way to attempt to avoid blame."?
That statement is simply not true. The 40cal conversion was discontinued because it was just to much power in to small and to light of a pistol!
And by the way, did I mention that Glocks do fail too!
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/glock21-kb.jpg
"Did you know that Kel Tec discontinued their 40sw version because it was unreliable, even by Kel Tec standards? Blaming the failure on "limp wristing" instead of poor design was their corporate way to attempt to avoid blame."?
That statement is simply not true. The 40cal conversion was discontinued because it was just to much power in to small and to light of a pistol!
And by the way, did I mention that Glocks do fail too!
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/images/glock21-kb.jpg
tiberius
February 18, 2004, 09:19 AM
The 40cal conversion was discontinued because it was just to much power in to small and to light of a pistol! It will be interesting to see how the Kahr PM40 does, It is very similar in size and weight to the old P-40.
LoneWulf
February 18, 2004, 09:37 AM
Kokapelli,
You can show all the blown up Glocks you want, that doesn't make Kel Tec any better than the crap that they are.
The 40sw Kel Tec was discontinued because it jammed, was it too much power or their poor design?
I have a pic of an HK that blew up, I suppose you think that Kel Tecs are as good as HK's also. :rolleyes:
-------------------------------------------------------
You guys carry what you want, I will carry quality weapons only. With proven track records, not some cult POS that people like for whatever reasons.
Kel Tec is quality, just like Bryco and Jennings. :rolleyes:
Delude yourselves all you want, but Kel Tec is crap.
If you life is only worth a $200 gun, then by all means carry it.
You can show all the blown up Glocks you want, that doesn't make Kel Tec any better than the crap that they are.
The 40sw Kel Tec was discontinued because it jammed, was it too much power or their poor design?
I have a pic of an HK that blew up, I suppose you think that Kel Tecs are as good as HK's also. :rolleyes:
-------------------------------------------------------
You guys carry what you want, I will carry quality weapons only. With proven track records, not some cult POS that people like for whatever reasons.
Kel Tec is quality, just like Bryco and Jennings. :rolleyes:
Delude yourselves all you want, but Kel Tec is crap.
If you life is only worth a $200 gun, then by all means carry it.
LoneWulf
February 18, 2004, 10:24 AM
Kokapelli,
The source of my info is from reading KTOG.org and personal experience with all four calibers of the Kel Tec product.
The Kel Tec gunsmith posts there as do many other Kel Tec devotees.
Go read the threads there about these fine weapons, even the owners bitch to high heaven about the problems that they have.
Buy any gun you like, I recommend Sigs, Berettas, Glocks, Smiths, Walthers, not Kel Tecs.
I just sold my 380, it went from reliable to FTE and light striking all in one 30 round session with ball ammo.
I don't need a gun that needs to be babied to keep it working, I need guns that work when filled with lint, dirt, etc.
I carried the same Glock 17 for 11 years as a duty weapon, no malfunctions and no Kb's.
Glocks have a serious problem with the 40sw/357sig and 45acp cartridge. They like to blow from time to time. That sucks and effects their reliablity permanently. ;)
There is an inate problem with the 40/357 cartridge, it is poorly designed with weak cases, particularly at the web.
Glock has a problem with loose chambers and poor case support. The two combinded leads to disaster. That's one of the reasons I carry multiple back up weapons.
The 9mm Glocks do not share this problem, nor do the 9mm Kel Tecs.
I still trust them more than I do a gun that won't feed reliably.
I know well the problems of the Glock, we had an officer using Blazer ammo Kb his Glock 22 a few months back. We are banned from using Blazer in our dept issued weapons.
I am tweaked that out of the four Kel Tecs I have owned, the only one that worked is the P32 that my wife still carries.
The others have been a waste of time and money for me. Guns should work correctly out of the box, not after a fluff and buff or a trip back to the factory.
I do wish Kel Tec's performed better for me, I would still own them and carry them, but after a 75% failure rate, I will carry my Glock and a revolver or two instead.
The source of my info is from reading KTOG.org and personal experience with all four calibers of the Kel Tec product.
The Kel Tec gunsmith posts there as do many other Kel Tec devotees.
Go read the threads there about these fine weapons, even the owners bitch to high heaven about the problems that they have.
Buy any gun you like, I recommend Sigs, Berettas, Glocks, Smiths, Walthers, not Kel Tecs.
I just sold my 380, it went from reliable to FTE and light striking all in one 30 round session with ball ammo.
I don't need a gun that needs to be babied to keep it working, I need guns that work when filled with lint, dirt, etc.
I carried the same Glock 17 for 11 years as a duty weapon, no malfunctions and no Kb's.
Glocks have a serious problem with the 40sw/357sig and 45acp cartridge. They like to blow from time to time. That sucks and effects their reliablity permanently. ;)
There is an inate problem with the 40/357 cartridge, it is poorly designed with weak cases, particularly at the web.
Glock has a problem with loose chambers and poor case support. The two combinded leads to disaster. That's one of the reasons I carry multiple back up weapons.
The 9mm Glocks do not share this problem, nor do the 9mm Kel Tecs.
I still trust them more than I do a gun that won't feed reliably.
I know well the problems of the Glock, we had an officer using Blazer ammo Kb his Glock 22 a few months back. We are banned from using Blazer in our dept issued weapons.
I am tweaked that out of the four Kel Tecs I have owned, the only one that worked is the P32 that my wife still carries.
The others have been a waste of time and money for me. Guns should work correctly out of the box, not after a fluff and buff or a trip back to the factory.
I do wish Kel Tec's performed better for me, I would still own them and carry them, but after a 75% failure rate, I will carry my Glock and a revolver or two instead.
kokapelli
February 18, 2004, 01:47 PM
LoneWulf, I am a memeber of the "Ktog.org" board and also a member of the "Kel-Tec Range" board. I think that you have way overstated KelTec problems! For the last couple of years that I have participated at ktog.org I have never heard of anyone having problems with every KT product they purchased and most of them have had very satisfactory performance after the occasional problems have been corrected. I do think that KT could do a better job on new products when they first come out. There were problems with the early P-3ATs, but KelTec did make adjustments quickly and now most of the newer P-3ATs are perfect out of the box. I purchased an early P-3AT and did have a problem that KelTec fixed and have since put about 500 trouble free rounds through it. I like the P-3AT so much that I purchased a second one that has been flawless! I have no problem with Glocks or any of the other pistols you mentioned. I think Glocks are generally very good pistols, but they are just to big for pocket carry. If I didn't have the KelTec p32 or P-3AT I would probably be carrying my NAA mini 22.
shooter1
February 18, 2004, 03:31 PM
Of the 5 KTs I have owned, (still have 4) mine have all performed flawlessly.
Will
Will
mod12
February 18, 2004, 04:01 PM
doggonit shooter, you're gonna get wulffie's head all out of whack and he'll be beside himself. then we'll have to listen to two of him!;)
alamo
February 18, 2004, 04:03 PM
2 P-32s, 1 P-3AT and 1 P-11. All work fine. A couple minor initial teething problems with 1 P-32 and the P-3AT. No big deal.
starfuryzeta
February 18, 2004, 04:07 PM
For those that have the P3AT or P32, do you use it primarily as a "throw in the pocket" CCW?
Reason I ask is that warm weather is coming soon, and thinking ahead, I'm wanting to go with more of a pocket gun than an IWB gun this year. Thus there will be shorts involved. I'm liking the looks of the P3AT for this purpose.
Reliability issues aside, any thoughts or concerns for this course of action?
Reason I ask is that warm weather is coming soon, and thinking ahead, I'm wanting to go with more of a pocket gun than an IWB gun this year. Thus there will be shorts involved. I'm liking the looks of the P3AT for this purpose.
Reliability issues aside, any thoughts or concerns for this course of action?
rbernie
February 18, 2004, 04:15 PM
When the difference is no-carry or BUG-carry, I'll take a KelTec P32/P3AT every time. 1600+ rounds and five (5) FTE's for my P32, for example, isn't a bad record in my book. It sure beats the snot outta throwing rocks.... Sure, I have other handguns, most of which are far more powerful and arguably far more durable than the KelTec. But that doesn't help me when all I can conceal is something small enough to fit in my pocket.
I've said it before in other forums and I'll say it here - this will probably be the pistol that will save my life, since it's the one that I know will always be with me no matter the circumstance.
I've said it before in other forums and I'll say it here - this will probably be the pistol that will save my life, since it's the one that I know will always be with me no matter the circumstance.
LoneWulf
February 18, 2004, 05:03 PM
Kokopelli,
Then I have had terrible luck with Kel Tecs.
It appears I have had the same bad luck with Kahr pistols, since I have had nothing but lemons from them also.
I pocket carry a Glock 27 daily, clothing dictates what you can shove in your pocket, I am able to carry a G27 without a problem.
Honestly, I prefer 1911's, but they are another story. ;)
Be safe,
Wulf
Then I have had terrible luck with Kel Tecs.
It appears I have had the same bad luck with Kahr pistols, since I have had nothing but lemons from them also.
I pocket carry a Glock 27 daily, clothing dictates what you can shove in your pocket, I am able to carry a G27 without a problem.
Honestly, I prefer 1911's, but they are another story. ;)
Be safe,
Wulf
bradvanhorn
February 18, 2004, 05:57 PM
If I can dress appropriately for concealed carry, then I'll have my Beretta 96 on my hip. If not, well then I'm left with a few options. If I can wear something a little baggy, then my P-11 conceals fine. If I'm stuck with none to many layers, like in the hot, sticky summer months, then the P-3AT (which has just replaced my P-32) will go in my pocket.
For the longest time I wouldn't carry anything but my S&W 638 Bodyguard, but when I finally bought my Kel-Tec P-11, well 10 rounds of 9mm is a safer bet than 5 rounds of .38spl in my mind. It's easy for me to say the S&W is a much nicer gun, but it wasn't any more or less reliable, and again, the extra 9mm rounds are a comfort.
For the longest time I wouldn't carry anything but my S&W 638 Bodyguard, but when I finally bought my Kel-Tec P-11, well 10 rounds of 9mm is a safer bet than 5 rounds of .38spl in my mind. It's easy for me to say the S&W is a much nicer gun, but it wasn't any more or less reliable, and again, the extra 9mm rounds are a comfort.
kokapelli
February 18, 2004, 06:50 PM
LoneWulf, you said "I have had terrible luck with Kel Tecs.
It appears I have had the same bad luck with Kahr pistols, since I have had nothing but lemons from them also."
You're having problems with Kahrs too! OK, now I'm convinced you must either have the worst luck ever with pistols or you're doing something that messes up your pistols!
It appears I have had the same bad luck with Kahr pistols, since I have had nothing but lemons from them also."
You're having problems with Kahrs too! OK, now I'm convinced you must either have the worst luck ever with pistols or you're doing something that messes up your pistols!
azrael
February 18, 2004, 06:54 PM
P3At is a good gun for pocket carry...another choice that might work is a p-11 in a pocket holster...You need big pockets but it seems to be getting more popular than it once was...I guess 11 rounds of 9mm beat a .380 any day...For those times when large pocket pants are not an option just slip in the P3AT and go...
Like the guy on the tales of the gun episode about gangster guns said when talking about the .25acp...It beats throwing rocks...rbernie said it quite nicely as well:D :D :D ...the same applies to a .380
Like the guy on the tales of the gun episode about gangster guns said when talking about the .25acp...It beats throwing rocks...rbernie said it quite nicely as well:D :D :D ...the same applies to a .380
MR.G
February 19, 2004, 10:22 AM
For the last couple of years I have had a S&W 638 for front pocket or ankle carry. There have been times that the 638 was even too large, due to the way that I was dressed. For those times, I bought a NAA mini .22. I carry at work, where ultimate concealment is necessary. Recently I bought a P-3AT to replace the .22 NAA. After shooting it, I was so impressed that I bought a second one for the other pocket, and sold the 638. The P-3AT is now my primary ccw. I hope that I didn't make a mistake. I have only been to the range once with the Kel-Tec.
azrael
February 19, 2004, 10:26 AM
Mr G,
I dont think you have made a mistake...However I would advise shooting it a bit more before carrying it...100 rounds of plinking ammo should do the trick...Mine hates Wolf as do most P3AT's so skip that one.
I dont think you have made a mistake...However I would advise shooting it a bit more before carrying it...100 rounds of plinking ammo should do the trick...Mine hates Wolf as do most P3AT's so skip that one.
MR.G
February 27, 2004, 05:10 PM
Since posting this, I have had problems with both of my new Kel-Tec P-3AT pistols. As far as I am concerned they are junk. I would not trust one for use as a ccw. Now, how much did this cost me to try out these pos guns and the four extra magazines that I bought ? Probably will get at least half of what I paid for them.
kokapelli
February 27, 2004, 05:18 PM
MR.G, what kind of problems are you having? I had problems with both of mine too! Had to send one back and was able to fix the other one myself with a little help from the guys at ktog.org/vbulletin. Since then, both have been 100% with hundreds of rounds through each.
MR.G
February 27, 2004, 05:27 PM
Gun number one had a feeding problem. Had to finish production of the gun by doing a "fluff and buff". Also a bad pin on that one. Gun number two has bad tooling marks in the barrel. Didn't look it over good enough before purchasing it. Today I received a replacement barrel from Kel-Tec, which is just as bad as the original ! Don't know which one to keep for it. They took my credit card number as security that I would return the original.
kokapelli
February 27, 2004, 06:16 PM
Yep! Sounds like you have had a bad experience! To bad because most KTs are good guns. Some need a little help at the begining, but usually end up OK!
azrael
February 27, 2004, 06:39 PM
Wow MR. G that sucks....I have had nothing but good things to say about them for a long time...Call them back and see if you can swap your barrell again...
mod12
February 27, 2004, 07:01 PM
mr.g, if you give up this easy you'll just have to take your lumps. all kinds of help is available if you ask. www.ktog.org , www.ktrange.com for starters.
oldfella
February 27, 2004, 10:14 PM
This is indeed a good discussion, as I'm thinking about getting a Kel-Tec P3AT. I must say this, in favor of every one pro or con, there is a lemon in every bunch, even S&W's, I know first hand. I want the Kel-Tec .380 to pocket carry locally, as I live in a relatively low crime community. When I go outside the immediate area, I carry my trusty S&W M60 with CT Laser grips and night front sight in a Kangaroo undercover holster, even if it's warm - no discomfort, no printing problems.
Stay Safe - The Oldfella
Stay Safe - The Oldfella
azrael
February 27, 2004, 10:16 PM
are those kangaroo holsters made from real Kangaroo's?? :D
oldfella
February 28, 2004, 11:23 AM
No, but that's an interesting idea... from the inside of the kangaroo's pouch - comfy ;)
PX15
February 28, 2004, 01:52 PM
Interesting to see such contrary experiences regarding KelTec products. Seems like most folks are quite fond of their particular KelTec pistol, while a few have had only negative things to say about theirs. Seems too that many people equate price with quality, period. I don't think that is ALWAYS a true statement. Rarely you do get more than you paid for. I've owned Glocks, Walther's, Sig's, S/W's, Tokarovs (sorry), and now a KelTec P11. I wasn't interested in KelTec's for a long time but I kept reading favorable reports on the products and Customer Service so thought I'd try one. My P11 WAS CHEAP to purchase. ($225 +tax). My primary carry pistol prior to the present was a very nice Sig P239. The Sig is accurate, 100% reliable, a great pistol. However - most folks who visit these forums have more than one firearm, and generally are always on the lookout for something new. No matter how satisfied you are with your "present" favorite you keep reading and researching to find out what "else" might be "out there" for you to try. That's the reason I bought my P11. Now - I brought it home, cleaned it just because, I DID polish the feed ramp, but only because I wanted to. So far I have fired over 500 rounds thru it with nary a bobble. It is very accurate from self-defense range (5-7 yards). It is NOT very accurate from longer distance, but if you choose to shoot someone (in self-defense) from a longer distance you had better have a good lawyer on call. The P11 (mine, anyway) has been all and more than I expected. I am very pleased with my KelTec 9mm and therefore intend to purchase either a new P32 or P3AT in the near future for my concealed carry needs. I have been using a NAA Guardian for that purpose, but it is heavy, and has a heavy trigger pull. Good pistol, but now I can get another pistol for 1/2 the price and it will be lighter and have a lighter trigger pull. I don't know how you can complain about a pistol that performs perfectly by saying it "might fail someday". My body intends to FAIL someday. But that doesn't mean I don't have faith in it working perfectly ok until then. I don't encourage anyone to buy a KelTec or any other pistol. I'm responsible for myself and what I choose to buy to protect myself is my business. I choose to think of the KelTec company as being the producers of a very reasonably priced QUALITY line of products, but that's just my opinion. Opinions are like _ssholes.. We all have one. Stick with the brand you like, but just because you had problem with a particular manufacturer or firearm doesn't mean everyone else has.. Finally, I don't think defective products garner "cults".. IMO the "cult" following KelTec firearms resulted from the same mental attitude that the GLOCK "cult" came from - satisfied owners.:)
shooter1
February 28, 2004, 03:03 PM
I'm on my fifth Kel tec and have yet to get a bad one. I don't know--------maybe I'm just lucky!!! I'd buy another in a heart beat!
str1
str1
JohnBT
February 28, 2004, 09:29 PM
"Delude yourselves all you want, but Kel Tec is crap."
Delude yourself, they're not.
John
Delude yourself, they're not.
John
JShirley
February 28, 2004, 11:29 PM
People accept the failure of a cheap gun like a Kel Tec, Bryco, Jennings
To toss KT in the same category as Bryco or Jennings really sets the standard for the rest of your opinions.
It seems fairly ludicrous to say that a company who may have managed to have the single most popular handgun in the country for the last two years has "a cult following".
FWIW, when I first took my P-32 out (SN 12x), it was considerably more reliable than my friend's NAA. It was also lighter, had a better trigger pull, and was less expensive. Byron's NAA may be as reliable as my Kel-Tec, now- after a fluff and buff! It's really a moot point anyway, though, since Byron said a few days ago that his NAA is the only arm in his house that he can't think of a use for!
He has carried a KT every day for the last three years. Somehow, his Seecamp and NAA don't get carried. :neener:
I've had malfs with Glocks, 1911's, assorted other pistols, and even a Smith N frame, as well as several KT's. I never had a malf with my KT P-11, though, in four years of carry. KT stopped carrying the .40 because of the recoil- a big he-man firearms instructor of mine described the P-11's recoil as "vicious" after firing it, and refused to fire any rounds with the P-40 upper. :D
Incidentally, LoneWulf, since you mention several "jams", what stoppage requiring return to a gunsmith have you seen from KT's?
To toss KT in the same category as Bryco or Jennings really sets the standard for the rest of your opinions.
It seems fairly ludicrous to say that a company who may have managed to have the single most popular handgun in the country for the last two years has "a cult following".
FWIW, when I first took my P-32 out (SN 12x), it was considerably more reliable than my friend's NAA. It was also lighter, had a better trigger pull, and was less expensive. Byron's NAA may be as reliable as my Kel-Tec, now- after a fluff and buff! It's really a moot point anyway, though, since Byron said a few days ago that his NAA is the only arm in his house that he can't think of a use for!
He has carried a KT every day for the last three years. Somehow, his Seecamp and NAA don't get carried. :neener:
I've had malfs with Glocks, 1911's, assorted other pistols, and even a Smith N frame, as well as several KT's. I never had a malf with my KT P-11, though, in four years of carry. KT stopped carrying the .40 because of the recoil- a big he-man firearms instructor of mine described the P-11's recoil as "vicious" after firing it, and refused to fire any rounds with the P-40 upper. :D
Incidentally, LoneWulf, since you mention several "jams", what stoppage requiring return to a gunsmith have you seen from KT's?
clange
February 29, 2004, 06:13 AM
I don't need a gun that needs to be babied to keep it working, I need guns that work when filled with lint, dirt, etc.
Hmmm i guess i should sell all my handguns then. :scrutiny:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66949
Hmmm i guess i should sell all my handguns then. :scrutiny:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66949
shooter1
February 29, 2004, 08:04 AM
I try to clean my guns every now and then. I find they work better without the dirt dobber nests and dust bunnys.
str1
str1
Fred Find
February 29, 2004, 11:34 AM
This is not for everyone, but I have been using the Kangaroo Carry for a couple of years now and it is the Most comfortable and concealable method on the market today. If you have not looked at it, you may want to.
The company will get back with you when you call or E-mail and will work with you if you have a problem. This kind of service is rare today. When I malied them I got a reply from one of the VP's. kangaroo@hal-pc.org
www.kangarooind.com
The company will get back with you when you call or E-mail and will work with you if you have a problem. This kind of service is rare today. When I malied them I got a reply from one of the VP's. kangaroo@hal-pc.org
www.kangarooind.com
JShirley
February 29, 2004, 04:55 PM
Welcome to THR!
John
John
DDGator
February 29, 2004, 05:23 PM
I gotta say the picture on that Kangaroo site is not flattering...
It looks like Kramer's "Manzier" or "Bro"...
It looks like Kramer's "Manzier" or "Bro"...
Drjones
February 29, 2004, 08:12 PM
I dunno how comfortable it could possibly be to have what is essentially a belly-band strapped around your chest all day.
I don't think I could stand it.
Thanks for the link, though, and WELCOME! :)
I don't think I could stand it.
Thanks for the link, though, and WELCOME! :)
azrael
February 29, 2004, 08:20 PM
hmm not a bad holster just not for me...i will stick to pocket and belt carry:D
kokapelli
March 1, 2004, 09:15 AM
Doesn't look very practicle to me.
Wearing a pistol in that fashion here in Arizona in the summer time or most of the year for that matter would turn the pistol into a chunk of rust in no time. I wonder how long it would take to draw from that rigg too? I wear "T" shirts most of the time and would have to pull my shirt up to my chin to draw! I'll stick with pocket carry where I can have the pistol out of the holster and in my hand, but still concealed in my pocket when things look suspicious.
Wearing a pistol in that fashion here in Arizona in the summer time or most of the year for that matter would turn the pistol into a chunk of rust in no time. I wonder how long it would take to draw from that rigg too? I wear "T" shirts most of the time and would have to pull my shirt up to my chin to draw! I'll stick with pocket carry where I can have the pistol out of the holster and in my hand, but still concealed in my pocket when things look suspicious.
Flipper
March 1, 2004, 06:58 PM
PX15:
You are as eloquent on this forum as you are elsewhere.:D
I've been carryin' my P-11 a couple of weeks now in an Uncle Mike's Sidekick holster, which resides in my front pocket. I haven't really shot it enough to have an opinion yet, but so far everytime I pull the trigger a bullet comes out. I say "resides" because I am never without it, just the thing one wants the most in a ccw. I have to admit though "you know it" when you pull that trigger. ;)
Mighty Comfortable to carry!
You are as eloquent on this forum as you are elsewhere.:D
I've been carryin' my P-11 a couple of weeks now in an Uncle Mike's Sidekick holster, which resides in my front pocket. I haven't really shot it enough to have an opinion yet, but so far everytime I pull the trigger a bullet comes out. I say "resides" because I am never without it, just the thing one wants the most in a ccw. I have to admit though "you know it" when you pull that trigger. ;)
Mighty Comfortable to carry!
P95Carry
March 5, 2004, 09:55 PM
Rather tyhan start a new thread .. I'll just add a bit here.
Well - snow has cleared here quite a bit and this afternoon made #2 visit to range this week .. wicked!
This was first chance to really check out P3AT .. to which I must confess, I have yet to apply a ''fluff'n'buff'' ..... thought I'd just try an outa the box first shoot.
Well ... all I had with me was some Brown Bear JMJ ... which the Thunder likes. This was OK except for two FTE's. Not really sure why ... that tho was only out of four mag's full. Still concerns me.
Shot at 10 yards ... and all on a sheet of paper very easily ... tho gotta say, large hands and wee lil grips ... it ain't that easy to hold!!
Thing that most got to me tho was the small trigger and guard ... had to make sure I was ''finger tipping'' ... otherwise finger was feeling very restricted with that long pull.
I think way more practice is needed .... plus maybe some other ammo ... then if time allows a fluff'n'buff.
Well - snow has cleared here quite a bit and this afternoon made #2 visit to range this week .. wicked!
This was first chance to really check out P3AT .. to which I must confess, I have yet to apply a ''fluff'n'buff'' ..... thought I'd just try an outa the box first shoot.
Well ... all I had with me was some Brown Bear JMJ ... which the Thunder likes. This was OK except for two FTE's. Not really sure why ... that tho was only out of four mag's full. Still concerns me.
Shot at 10 yards ... and all on a sheet of paper very easily ... tho gotta say, large hands and wee lil grips ... it ain't that easy to hold!!
Thing that most got to me tho was the small trigger and guard ... had to make sure I was ''finger tipping'' ... otherwise finger was feeling very restricted with that long pull.
I think way more practice is needed .... plus maybe some other ammo ... then if time allows a fluff'n'buff.
rbernie
March 5, 2004, 10:11 PM
Add the Bersa Thunder fingergrips ($3 ea) to the mag bottom - it makes the pistol MUCH more controllable for those of us with largish hands.
P95Carry
March 5, 2004, 10:21 PM
Add the Bersa Thunder fingergrips Yeah .. I remember reading someone mentioning those .. but sourcing?? Where might be best to go find them ... and I still have to get a spare mag too ... guess that'll have to be top Dollar thru Kel-Tec yeah?
Flipper
March 5, 2004, 10:42 PM
P95Carry
The trigger area on the P-11 is the same. You put too much finger in there and it will "bite" you on the way back. The bright side is that it will sure school you right quick on developing the proper grip. I have rather large hands (Size 15 foot might give you some idea) and the trigger pinched me twice during the first couple of mags. It just takes a little practice then grippin' it will come naturally.I'm developin' a real likin' for it and haven't had the urge to bite it back in at least a week.:D
The trigger area on the P-11 is the same. You put too much finger in there and it will "bite" you on the way back. The bright side is that it will sure school you right quick on developing the proper grip. I have rather large hands (Size 15 foot might give you some idea) and the trigger pinched me twice during the first couple of mags. It just takes a little practice then grippin' it will come naturally.I'm developin' a real likin' for it and haven't had the urge to bite it back in at least a week.:D
rbernie
March 5, 2004, 10:44 PM
I bought the grip extension directly from Bersa. It's part #48, @ $3 each.
http://www.bersa-llama.com/380liteSpts.html
http://www.bersa-llama.com/380liteSpts.html
P95Carry
March 5, 2004, 10:56 PM
Hey, thx guys. I'll check out that link soon
Flipper .... SIZE 15 FEET!!!!! .... sheesh . I can only imagine the hand size. Heck - if you can cope then I can .... I know I need more practice for sure. :p
I am foot size 11 .. so must be a midget by comparison!:D
Shoot safe and straight.
Flipper .... SIZE 15 FEET!!!!! .... sheesh . I can only imagine the hand size. Heck - if you can cope then I can .... I know I need more practice for sure. :p
I am foot size 11 .. so must be a midget by comparison!:D
Shoot safe and straight.
alamo
March 5, 2004, 10:56 PM
I recommend the Bersa extension too. I also put on the Houge Handall, Jr.
Both help you get a better grip on it. For me, they improved the comfort factor in shooting it and accuracy.
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/p3at-fingerrest.htm
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/handalljr.htm
Both help you get a better grip on it. For me, they improved the comfort factor in shooting it and accuracy.
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/p3at-fingerrest.htm
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/handalljr.htm
goalie
March 23, 2004, 05:47 AM
I just got one for my birthday. It is light, accurate and reliable. It sent 200 rounds downrange without a glitch now in two seperate range sessions. It may not be pretty or have the best finish of any firearms I own, but I will trust my life to it when I am not carrying my Glock 26 or my 3" SP101 in .357 magnum. It beats my .22 NAA mini revolver by a long shot.
flatrock
March 23, 2004, 11:26 AM
Kel-Tecs don't seem to be as polished as some other more expensive guns. They perform better when new if you spend a few minutes doing a quick fluff and buff to smooth out some rough edges. You can also just break it in by shooting a few hundred rounds through it.
The P3AT is an extremely small and lightweight gun. Because of that it's particularly susceptable to limp wristing. If you keep you're wrist locked and let your elbow flex instead with the recoil, the FTEs disappear.
I can get FTEs with my S&W or my fife's Beretta by limp wristing as well. It's the small size and light weight of the P3AT that makes it more of a problem with that gun.
If you can carry a larger and heavier gun like the Glock 27, then that's probably a better choice. The heavier weight will give you less barrel flip, which makes limp wristing less of a problem. It also lets you get back on target for a second shot faster.
However, if you just can't conceal a gun larger than the P3AT, then learn what it takes to shoot it well and reliably.
Learn to lock your wrist when you shoot, and practice with it. If you're having problems with the gun after breaking it in some, send it back to Kel-Tec. They have a lifetime warranty, and stick by their products.
After shooting thousands of rounds through it you may start seeing wear, and the recoil springs may start getting weak. Send it back to Kel-Tec and they'll repair it, and update it with any changes they've made for free.
Someone said they shoot a thousand rounds a week. If you're buyinga gun to take to the range and shoot a thousand rounds a week, then a pocket carry gun isn't the right gun for you. The P3AT isn't a target gun. It has a specific purpose for which it's very well designed.
I have a P3AT. When the Ohio CCW goes into effect I will be carrying it as my primary carry gun when I can't carry a larger gun. When I can reasonably conceal a larger gun I will. However, my gun does me no good in my car or in my house. Therefore I'm taking the time to learn what my P3AT can and cannot do, and using it accordingly.
My wife on the other hand doesn't like the barrel flip, so she bought a S&W 642. It's a little harder to conceal, but it suits her needs better.
The P3AT is an extremely small and lightweight gun. Because of that it's particularly susceptable to limp wristing. If you keep you're wrist locked and let your elbow flex instead with the recoil, the FTEs disappear.
I can get FTEs with my S&W or my fife's Beretta by limp wristing as well. It's the small size and light weight of the P3AT that makes it more of a problem with that gun.
If you can carry a larger and heavier gun like the Glock 27, then that's probably a better choice. The heavier weight will give you less barrel flip, which makes limp wristing less of a problem. It also lets you get back on target for a second shot faster.
However, if you just can't conceal a gun larger than the P3AT, then learn what it takes to shoot it well and reliably.
Learn to lock your wrist when you shoot, and practice with it. If you're having problems with the gun after breaking it in some, send it back to Kel-Tec. They have a lifetime warranty, and stick by their products.
After shooting thousands of rounds through it you may start seeing wear, and the recoil springs may start getting weak. Send it back to Kel-Tec and they'll repair it, and update it with any changes they've made for free.
Someone said they shoot a thousand rounds a week. If you're buyinga gun to take to the range and shoot a thousand rounds a week, then a pocket carry gun isn't the right gun for you. The P3AT isn't a target gun. It has a specific purpose for which it's very well designed.
I have a P3AT. When the Ohio CCW goes into effect I will be carrying it as my primary carry gun when I can't carry a larger gun. When I can reasonably conceal a larger gun I will. However, my gun does me no good in my car or in my house. Therefore I'm taking the time to learn what my P3AT can and cannot do, and using it accordingly.
My wife on the other hand doesn't like the barrel flip, so she bought a S&W 642. It's a little harder to conceal, but it suits her needs better.
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