[N3rday]

Ok, two topics on this one:

1. How really reliable is an AR? I wouldn't trust one in a jungle or a desert, but how does it perform normally? Wild said something about not having to clean his much.

In fact, I think he said WildIhaventcleanedmyARinayearAlaska

2. I am thinking about getting one later on to optimize and stuff. What all can I put on it? I am thinking about Olympic Arms because of the price. How do I know the modifications will work for my particular AR? are they universal?

I'm an AR n00b...:uhoh:

[vanfunk]

Required reading:

www.tacticalforums.com - Read, in its entirety, the thread entitled "AR15 deficiencies". One of the biggest challenges when soliciting feedback about AR's is maintaining objectivity despite the overarching brand loyalty one usually encounters. The thread noted above is contributed to by some who really, really use these things in a manner consistent with their design and purpose.

With that said, of the seven AR's I've owned I've had few reliablility issues. I experienced inexplicable jams with my Bushmaster M4A3, despite Herculean efforts to sort out the issues. My Armalite 20"A2 suffered from numerous cosmetic flaws and had an out-of-spec magazine catch which negatively affected reliablility. The three Colt AR's I own have never malfunctioned, despite some pretty long lapses in their cleaning regimen. My newest Colt, the MT6400C, has been "rode hard and put away wet" on numerous occasions but has yet to fail (yes, even with the dreaded Wolf ammo ).

I don't think I'm immune to the sway of brand loyalty either - I like Colt AR-15s because the ones I know of (and the ones owned by others I know) are made better and perform better than the competition's offerings. Bushmaster, Armalite, DPMS, Rock River and even sometimes Olympic;) make great, accurate and reliable rifles and carbines.

Colt just makes 'em better.

HTH,
vanfunk

[ny32182]

How reliable is an AR? Very, in my experience. I own 2 bushmasters, and in thousands of rounds, I've had two failures to feed on the last round with the same bad mag. The carrier somehow got stuck on the mag follower while halfway closed while loading the last round... no idea how that happens, but easily clearable almost as quickly as a normal mag change.

Anyhow, with the exception of that one bad mag, they have both been 100% flawless, and I hope to add another sometime this year.

The Colt MT6400c seems like a nice rifle with everything that *I* personally look for in an AR. The last Colt match target HBAR I saw, I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

IMO, bushy has the best overall line available to civilians today. But pole 10 people, and you'll get 7 different opinions, YMMV, and all that.

[N3rday]

Yes, but I'm on a budget here...I'm looking in the $700 or less range, otherwise I'm going with a 5.45 or .223 AK...

[fix]

I think Rock River Arms offers the best value right now, assuming you can't find a Colt in your price range. I like the option of a mid-length upper and to the best of my knowledge, Colt doesn't offer that. If I were planning on a 20", I would lean towards the Colt, but for a shorty I like RRA. Bushmaster and Armalite are good too. Everyone slips a lemon through from time to time, Colt just does it less.

[NevadaPistolero]

For about $550-$600 you build a damn nice AR using quality parts, Buy a complete upper and a stripped lower and lower kit, very easy to put the lower together. That way you have a little money left over for mags and ammo. I just bought an RRA new logo stripped lower from eaglefirearms.net for $89.00. Cant beat that for quality. Mine is only gonna cost about $475 because I already had the complete lower kit and stock(non collapsable RRA). I traded a SAR 1 for a complete Bushmaster upper with a 16 inch barrel with the AK style brake. As far as dependability, they are a lot better than the early guns. I was alway down on ARs and after talking to a few people and seeing what the new guns could do I started getting into them. they make everything in the world for ARs, I wouldnt doubt they even make a mount for the kitchen sink. you can really get carried away hanging stuff off an Ar, I like the sleek look my self, maybe a red dot site or a laser sight and thats about it. I have one M4 A3 flat top and 2 A2 i6 inch guns...BushMaster and RRA.

[Zak Smith]

I've had a Rock River 16" (mid-length gas) that has never failed on me. I clean it about every 1000 rounds or so by removing the bolt carrier assembly from the upper and spraying it and the inside of the upper down with a solvent (brake cleaner, or PowderBlast). A couple drops of CLP or FP10 and I'm good to go.

I haven't found them to be really all that dirty. Don't over lube it.

-z

[ID_shooting]

"I wouldn't trust one in a jungle or a desert, but how does it perform normally? Wild said something about not having to clean his much."

I know this will get me flamed but I diagree that ARs are unreliable EVEN in the desert and jungle. PROPERLY cared for, ARs are the best modern combat rifle around, IMO. I carried the same M-16 for 3 years while at Ft Riley with many trips to the Cali desert and even one trip to the big sand box and never had any problems, not one. I had one while I was stationed in Korea, and guess what, no troubles. Even had one while stationed at Ft Bliss, in Texas, yes Texas, never had any problems with that one iether. No that I am out, well, I felt naked with out one so I went and got me a good used DPMS AR. And yet again, not one problem with it ever. Of cource, I clean it and keep it lubed with breakfree but after who knows how many rounds, it shoots just like the day I got it.

[Coltdriver]

I have a bushmaster shorty and it is solid reliable.

I think all the things you hear about them being unreliable are a bit overblown. I shot them in the military a lot and never had a problem.

Never took one into the jungle, but I have carried mine in the woods a lot.

Too bad bushmaster called that new carbon fiber 3.5 pound version the "lady" cause I got to have one of those.

A light rifle is very much appreciated about five miles into a jaunt through the woods. :D

I would do my best to stick with one of the top names and not worry about it too much. If you were fairly savvy and had a yearn to gunsmith then putting one together can be a less expensive way to go, however, if you get it wrong and have a pos then the savings won't seem so significant.

If you got $700 save one or two more and get a good bushy.

[N3rday]

well, first things first.

ID, I know a properly cared for AR would work fine, but combat kind of removes the option of cleaning a whole lot...ARs might be reliable, but there are more rifles that work better under worse conditions. I would certainly have one instead of an SMG or a pistol, however. I would just be ready to clear a jam...just in case. For medium range sniping and urban combat, this looks like the ultimate gun:D. Hopefully I won't be doing that any time soon...
By the way, I live in Texas. :D. Best damn state ever.

That said, the AR line looks quite nice, but I'm still keeping it under $700...

Nevada...explain that again? Where can I get all of the parts from, and how hard are they to assemble? How much cheaper would this be than just buying a RRA? some instructions for assembling the uppers and lowers would be nice...I don't really know ANYTHING about uppers and lowers, save that it is only a portion of the gun...

Anyway, any further info would be nice...what kind of things can I add to an AR?
If I buy, say, an AR foregrip, will this fit most AR variants, or are they brand/model specific? How universal are the parts for ARs in general?

THX for the answers so far guys...keep em coming.

Oh, i almost forgot. You know how there is the bolt or whatever you pull back to load a round into the chamber? it looks to me as if there is another thing you can pull that sticks out the sige of the gun a bit. What is that for? In Counter-Strike (Yes, I'm a nerd) he pulls that instead of the bolt.

Forgive my n00bness...:uhoh:

[ny32182]

Well.. starting without all these preconcieved ideas would probably be a good thing.

The cheapest way to do it would be to buy a complete upper (you can't install a barrel to the upper reciever without knowing what you are doing). The complete upper will have the barrel installed and correctly headspaced/test fired. The bolt/carrier group will be included, and all the other hardware on the upper like the forward assist, dust cover, etc will aready be in place.

Buy a stripped lower, and a lower parts kit. Building the lower is very easy. If you don't want to do this, just buy a complete lower (already built).

Put the upper and lower together by pushing two pins into place.

If you don't feel comfortable building the lower yourself, you will still save a decent amount of money by buying the complete upper and complete lower seperately, and just snapping them together. This is a way around a signifigant tax on the sale of complete rifles. The only downside is that you won't have as foolproof a factory warranty.

What kind of things can you add to an AR? If you can put it on a rifle, you can put it on an AR. Its that simple. Anything you can imagine.

There is no charging handle on the side of an AR. You manually rack the action by pulling on the ambidextrous charging handle that protrudes below the rear sight. It travels straight back along the top of the stock. And no, it doesn't reciprocate when you fire a round. As for the thing sticking out the side of the reciever, the only thing I could imagine it would be is the forward assist... not sure why your counterstrike guy would be pulling on it, as you CAN'T pull on it. You can only push it.

[N3rday]

I will try to post a pic of what I am talking about...

UGH LINK DOESN'T WORK!!!
I have it in an album...

anyway I haven't CS'd in a while, but I'm pretty sure he pulls that. In the game that is located on the left, since the characters in the game hold the gun by the trigger and load the mag with the other hand...

[DMK]

N3rday, browse around at www.ar15.com Everything you need to know to build an AR-15 is there.

You can visit one of the many places that sell AR parts such as www.eaglefirearms.net, www.adcofirearms.com, www.rbprecision.com or www.quanticoarms.com to see what's available. You can also visit the new parts section of the equipment exchange on ar15.com

If you get a complete upper and a complete lower, they literally fit together with just two pins and you are ready to go sight it in. Or if you are somewhat mechanically inclined, you could build your own lower. All you need is the bare lower reciever, a lower parts kit, and a buttstock kit. Look over these directions (http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/assembly/lower/). It really is simple.

Last week, I put together a new AR carbine in about two hours with no special tools except a set of punches. It cost me $787, but if I went with some different components, I could have built it for under $600. I list where I got all the parts and how much they cost in this thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63776

Rock River has a very nicely done website has good pictures of uppers, lowers and other various components: www.rockriverarms.com

Also notice that Rock River has a lifetime warantee on complete uppers and complete lowers, so you don't necessarily have to buy a complete rifle to enjoy a decent warantee.

[DMK]

In the game that is located on the left, since the characters in the game hold the gun by the trigger and load the mag with the other hand... Yea, that sounds almost right. You hold the weapon by the pistol grip with your right hand (finger OFF the trigger!), insert the mag with your left, tug on mag to make sure it's secure, then you pull back the charging handle with your left hand and let go to lock and load. Take the weapon off safe and open fire.

The charging handle is at the rear just below the carry handle/sight as ttbadboy says, but depending on your view angle I guess it could appear as if the operator was pulling back a handle along the side of the reciever.

The only other controls on the left side are the safety selector and the bolt release button. The mag release is on the right side.

[Kaylee]

Well, there are ARs with charging handles on the left, but they're kinda a specialty thing.. American Spirit Arms makes 'em, I think. They look awful spiffy. :)

Anyhow, the only control on the left side of the receiver (other than the safety/selector oops. :) ) on a standard AR/M16/M4 is the bolt release. Presuming you just fired dry -- push the magazine eject button on the right with your trigger finger and let the old mag drop free, put in a new magazine, smack the bolt release on the left side, and the bolt slides forward, and chambers a new round.

Now, next thing. Getting gun lessons from video games is a BAD THING. Maybe not as bad as from network TV, but a BAD THING none the less.

So... tell ya what. Look up an odcmp club near you here:
http://www.odcmp.com/Clubs/Texas-TX.pdf

Call them. Ask when the next match is. Ask to attend. They will almost certainly be overcome with delight at getting a new shooter into the sport. If you want to shoot a match with them, they will almost certainly loan you the rifle to shoot the match with (probably an M1, but maybe an AR). And there will be LOTS of ARs and guys and gals who know a lot about them to answer your questions.

Failing that, look up your local IDPA or IPSC club, same thing... ask about a three gun match. Lots of instruction there. And if you're polite and handle yourself well, you'll get the chance to handle most of that hardware you're talking about first hand.

One tip.. if you think you know something from a magazine or a video game or *heh* even a bulletin board like this one.. it's not true until you see it with your own eyes. :)

-K

[ID_shooting]

"One tip.. if you think you know something from a magazine or a video game or *heh* even a bulletin board like this one.. it's not true until you see it with your own eyes."

Agree with EVERYTHING kaylee had to say there! I knew there was a better way to lear this stuf than a Drill Sergeant shouting in my ears ;)

"then you pull back the charging handle with your left hand and let go to lock and load."

Good way to break charging handles:D

The correct proceedure when loading up from an empty gun is to pull the chargin handle to the rear, manually lock the bolt then manually push the charging handle back to the locked position. place it on safe, insert the mag, give it a good tap and tug then hit the bolt release. Aim, off safe and fire.

[DMK]

"then you pull back the charging handle with your left hand and let go to lock and load."

Good way to break charging handles

The correct proceedure when loading up from an empty gun is to pull the chargin handle to the rear, manually lock the bolt then manually push the charging handle back to the locked position. place it on safe, insert the mag, give it a good tap and tug then hit the bolt release. Aim, off safe and fire. Interesting. Releasing the charging handle is the way that both the Army TM (TM9-1005-319-10) and the Bushmaster owners manual recommends when loading from a closed bolt. Pressing the bolt release catch is only shown to be used when loading with the bolt already locked back.

Both manuals are available for download here (http://www.ar15.com/content/books/).

I always use the bolt/charging handle release/slide release method on all my weapons because it works with all weapons(that I have) regardless of the bolt or slide position.

I don't see how releasing the charging handle will break it. It's already under tension so the bolt isn't going to smack into it.

[ny32182]

When I'm loading from a closed bolt, I usually open it and manually engage the bolt catch, and then load as if I was loading from an empty mag lock back. Simply because its quite a pain to get a mag with 30 rds in it seated when the bolt is closed. When loading from a locked open bolt, you can use either the charging handle or just give the bolt catch a smack... which is the quickest way.

[fix]

That thing on the left side that you are referring to is probably a badger tac latch. Very useful item.

http://www.ustacticalsupply.com/latch.shtml

[ID_shooting]

OK, I know what the TM says, unfortunatly, Army TM's are not allways correct. the breakage occurs when the bolt hits the closed position and the T handle smacks the back of the upper. I knew somone was going to pull out the books. I speak from being an Army aromorer for 5 years and repalcing more charging handles than I can count.

[fix]

I used the charging handle yank method while in the service. It's really a fight like you train issue. Sometimes the bolt doesn't lock back. That's reality. Better to have one method that works in any circumstance and stick to it. That said, now that I pay for my own equipment I use the bolt release. I still practice the other way a good bit, but most of the time I slap the release.

[DMK]

OK, I know what the TM says, unfortunatly, Army TM's are not allways correct. the breakage occurs when the bolt hits the closed position and the T handle smacks the back of the upper. I knew somone was going to pull out the books. I speak from being an Army aromorer for 5 years and repalcing more charging handles than I can count. Ah, smacks into the upper. I can see your point now. Like fix says about training with a method and sticking to it, I don't think I'll change my method unless it gets to the point where I'm changing charging handles too often. I do think I'll keep a spare charging handle though. ;)

Thanks for the tip. :)

[jpthegeek]

For what it's worth...

I was a complete AR newbie until last month. I bought a Bushy M-4'gery ($800 cash) and have since put about 1000 of Wolf through it without a single jam/ftf/misfire.

I love it. Since I am habitual about cleaning my weapons, I have taken it apart everytime I returned from the range and thoroughly cleaned it. After the first range trip, I was a little scared about disassembling because I just didnn't know much about it, but after I did it once, I have no fear. What seemed like a very complex rifle at first has since become less than intimidating to work on.

It has so far been the most reliable semi-auto I have owned. I really do just enjoy the heck out of it as well. Hours of fun!

I can also see another full size in the future, except I will be building this one on my own.

jpthegeek

[ny32182]

As far as the RRA "mid length" thing...

It looks interesting, but I've heard that its fake. As in, under the handguards, it has a normal M4 length gas block/tube, and then further down the barrel it has another gas block/front sight, but that one doesn't have a gas port tapped. Is that true?

I'm wondering the same thing about the bushy dissipator... never held one of those either. Is it a real full length gas system, or does it have the ported gas block/tube under the handguards at the M4 position?

The advantage in both cases is a longer sight radius... I'd just feel a little weird with a rifle with 'fake stuff' on it. If thats the case.

[fix]

It looks interesting, but I've heard that its fake.

Nope. It's the real thing. Not sure how that rumor got started, but I've heard it before. Heard the same about Armalite as well. Also false.

[DMK]

I'm wondering the same thing about the bushy dissipator... never held one of those either. Is it a real full length gas system, or does it have the ported gas block/tube under the handguards at the M4 position? I have an RRA midlength. It has a normal gas block at the front sight. Supposedly, this is superior to the M4 gas block position for a 16" barreled carbine. Something about the pressure curve. I don't know the details.

The Dissipator has a gas block under the handguards, but I wouldn't consider that a detriment. It was done to extend the sight radius to the same as a 20" barrel while keeping the handy carbine barrel length. There has to be a certain amount of barrel after the gas block to keep the rifle funtioning reliably so they moved the gas block back. I agree they look funny, but the design has some benefits.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/barrel-assemblies/Images/abbl-16dm4a.jpg

[N3rday]

interesting...

So, why are there still so many brand new 'pre-ban' uppers around?
Does the ban forbid the sale of UPPERS and LOWERS with the 'evil' features, or is it just complete guns?

Also, I have only found 'upper halves', which are the barrel, the grip, and the sights. What's the other 'half' of the upper?

[Zak Smith]

So, why are there still so many brand new 'pre-ban' uppers around?
Does the ban forbid the sale of UPPERS and LOWERS with the 'evil' features', or is it just complete guns?

Also, I have only found 'upper halves', which are the barrel, the grip, and the sights. What's the other 'half' of the upper?


Didn't we just have this question a couple days ago?

Yes: Why so many pre ban uppers for AR15s? (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64326)

"This upper is pre-ban" is short-hand for, "It's only legal to put this upper on an AR15 lower with pre-ban status, or a LEO lower."

-z

[fix]

The upper is not considered a firearm, so they are legal to produce and sell. As long as you put it on a pre-ban lower, you're good.

[ny32182]

You can still buy brand new preban everything, except for the lower reciever.

You can call up Bushmaster and order a brand new preban upper and collapsible stock right now.

Its just not legal to put them on your lower unless your lower was part of a complete rifle in September, 1994.

[N3rday]

Yeah, I kind of never payed attention to AR threads...I never thought I would buy an AR!

anyway, whats the other half of the upper? What's missing?

[N3rday]

Wait a sec...I thought you loaded the rifle with your shooting hand??

Wouldn't it be easier to load like that than to hold the rifle up by the pistol grip? It would seem that way...

[Zak Smith]

No, you retain the firing grip while ejecting and replacing a new magazine.

-z

[Kaylee]

Wouldn't it be easier to load like that than to hold the rifle up by the pistol grip?

Back in the days of big heavy long traditionally stocked rifles top-loaded with a clip, that was the thinking of the day. (Mausers, Springfield '03s, M1s, etc).

The AR is light enough that holding it by the pistol grip ain't a chore, and the support-hand reload is wicked fast. Kinda like swapping a pistol mag actually... hit the mag eject button, dry mag drops free, slap in a new one and hit the bolt release (think slide stop).

Watching the guys who really know what they're doing on the field with those things is just amazing. As in... "he really did reload just now, right? I didn't hear a break in the fire string..."

:)


-K

[N3rday]

Wow, cool!
I figured the only gun you could reload while keeping firing grip was a bull-pup design...guess not.

Still wondering about those 'half-uppers' though...

[DMK]

No, you retain the firing grip while ejecting and replacing a new magazine. The FAL is operated that way also. The charging handle for the FAL is on the left side of the receiver. It sounds strange, but it's very natural once you try. It also allows you to get back to shooting very quickly.

anyway, whats the other half of the upper? What's missing?
Here's a pair of complete uppers, Rock River's in this case. (On the pre-ban, note the flash suppressor and right under the sight in front of the sling mount is the bayonette lug) You can also see the two tabs under the upper receiver where the pins go through to hold it to the lower receiver. One is at the front and one is at the rear. This whole assembly can legally be mailed to you without the need for a transfer through a dealer.

Compare this with the pic of the Dissipator barrel pic that I posted above.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/images/ustda2cm.gif

[Zak Smith]

Uppers are easy to build, too

http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/AR15-upper-assembly-1/

http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/AR15-upper-assembly-1/small/110_1009_img.jpg

-z

[Kaylee]

well.. I'd not call it "halves" of an upper, but the difference between a complete and an incomplete upper is --


complete upper -- includes bolt and carrier assembly and charging handle
incomplete upper -- doesn't include bolt/carrier, etc.

bolt and carrier and such run around $125 or so these days I think. So that's the price difference give or take you should see.

Also, there is a diff between M16 carriers and AR-15 carriers -- the AR carrier is cut away underneath so that it won't trip an autosear.

-K

[N3rday]

Those were EXACTLY the uppers I was looking at!
So those are complete, even though they say 'halves'?
I guess they mean half of the WHOLE RIFLE, instead of just half of the upper. I guess I just thought too hard there...


Oh...this just came to mind!
How much do the handguards weigh? I am wondering because it would seem that the longer the handguard, the larger the sight radius (since the forward sight is at the end of the handguard). Anyway, why would one opt for a smaller handguard and sight radius? Is weight a major factor?

[DMK]

I guess they mean half of the WHOLE RIFLE You've got it.

How much do the handguards weigh? I am wondering because it would seem that the longer the handguard, the larger the sight radius (since the forward sight is at the end of the handguard). Anyway, why would one opt for a smaller handguard and sight radius? Is weight a major factor? The handguards themselves are plastic and don't weigh much at all (except for free floating setups, but that's a whole 'nuther conversation). The added weight of the longer barrel is due to the barrel itself. This is especially true with heavy barrels due to their thicker profile. The harder to find government A1, A2 and M4 profiles are thinner under the handguards so they are lighter (they have less metal). The heavy barrels are stiffer though so should be more accurate (actually more consistant) and will absorb and dissapate more heat. ie. they run cooler. Interestingly, a 20" barreled rifle with a thin A1 or A2 government profile barrel will be lighter than a heavy barreled carbine. You can go very light with a thin profile carbine barrel and some very lightweight receiver components (see the Bushmaster Ladies Rifle thread)


Folks choose rifles or carbines for various reasons. People like carbines because they are shorter and easier to manuever in tight places. If you plan to put a red dot or scope on a carbine then the short sight radius won't matter so much. M4 styled carbines are popular now because they look cool. Some of the more savvy folks may choose one of the lighter barrel profiles for a lighter gun. Other folks may choose the longer barrels for the longer sight radius, they may want more velocity. Some may just like the look of the 20" barrels better.
ARs are available in so many flavors, there are all kinds of reasons to build/buy them one way or another. Figure out what you want to do with the rifle and then find/buy/build something that will fit your need. If your needs change, no big deal, buy another upper and you can swap them back and forth depending on your mood.

[Zak Smith]

The heaviest two parts of the "complete" upper are the usually bolt carrier assembly and the barrel, which are both steel.

Most handguards are made of fiberglass, plastic, or aluminum. An extra 2-4" of that weighs a few ounces.

The barrel profile (how thick it is throughout its length) is a big contributor to weight. A thing A2-type barrel will not very much. An Hbar ("heavy barrel") or bull barrel will weigh much more.

The difference in weight going from 16" to 20", for same barrel profile, will be mainly that 2 or 4" long rod of additional steel.

-z

[N3rday]

See...this is how I figure:

First, I saw a 20" with the handguard that was only medium length. Then I saw a 20" with the handguard almost at the tip of the barrel. What I thought was "Why sacrifice all that extra sight radius? If the barrels the same length, might as well have the handguard to the end."

Just my take on it, but I can't see any advantages to a shorter sight radius...then again, I am not experienced in guns...

edited to add: I found out what that thing was...forward assist. Of course it was located on the left side instead of the right...

[Zak Smith]

There are three gas system lengths that I'm aware of:

1. Full or rifle length. Gas block / front sight tower is approx 13" from receiver.
2. Mid-length. Gas block / FST is approx 9.25" from receiver.
3. Carbne-length. Gas block / FST is approx 7.25" from receiver.

Then throw into the mix the different barrel profiles: A2, straight Hbar, "M4", bull, etc.
Next you can you mix and match handguard length. If the handguard covers the gas block, the gas block will have to be low-profile. If the gas block is further out than the handguards, the gas tube will be exposed (rare).

If you are not using iron sights, a longer handguard can offer more control since you can grasp it further towards the muzzle. It will also provide a "heat shield" which can be useful if you shoot it a lot and then drop it on a tac-sling. Finally, you can hang more "junk" (flashlights, lasers, whatever) off a longer handguard -- not my cup of tea, anyway.

The lower receiver is the "firearm" part.

For lots of AR15 information, go to http://www.AR15.com

-z

[DMK]

First, I saw a 20" with the handguard that was only medium length. Then I saw a 20" with the handguard almost at the tip of the barrel. What I thought was "Why sacrifice all that extra sight radius? If the barrels the same length, might as well have the handguard to the end." Are you sure those were 20" barrels you were looking at? It sounds like you were looking at a 16" midlength handguard carbine and a 16" Dissapator carbine.

Your argument has a lot of merit. It sounds to me like you would prefer either a 20" barreled rifle or a 16" dissapator carbine. Which one depends on whether you'd prefer the handiness of the 16" barrel or the extra velocity of the 20" barrel. You can get either one down to a very managable weight if you choose components carefully.

I'm a huge fan of carbines and have shorter barreled rifles of all flavors. However, my 16" RRA carbine shows off a HUGE fireball everytime I fire it. That's a lot of burning energy getting vented uselessly into the atmosphere. I love the carbine and wouldn't give it up for the world, but my next one is going to be a lightweight 20" A2 Govt. barreled flat top.

[N3rday]

Yes, it was a 'dissipator', if I recall right. I can't remember where I saw it though...

Is anyone still selling new pre-ban lowers? I would like to avoid the huge fireball I've heard so much about.
I ddin't think much of the so-called 'fireballs' until I saw a photo of a Desert Eagle being shot, with a huge circular fireball a few feet in front of it. It was a sweet photo...but not one I would like to experience...

[DMK]

Is anyone still selling new pre-ban lowers? Unfortunately, you can't legally build a pre-ban. You can only buy a rifle that was already built with a flash suppressor, collapsable stock, etc. and documented before the AWB in 94. Perhaps after next Sept. you can build one.

[Zak Smith]

During the daytime, the flash from a 16" is not that noticable. Put a good brake (JP BC Comp, Miculek, etc) on it if you want a muzzle attachment. A brake will be quite effective on a 16".

The two best options to look for are a free-floated barrel (handguards don't touch it) and a good trigger.

-z

[N3rday]

Ok, so how hard would it really be to assemble a lower receiver? What is required? Is it like a complex Lego ship? How much technical expertise does it require?

[DMK]

I put mine together in two hours and that was taking my time, comparing the parts, test fitting, cleaning, lubing, just really savoring the project.

Here's some very excellent instructions with diagrams:
http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/assembly/lower/