WARNING! Defective Federal Ammo!


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ZO6Vettever
March 10, 2012, 07:55 AM
Seen the thread "WARNING! Defective Winchester Ammo!" and I had the exact same response from Federal Customer Service.

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berettaprofessor
March 10, 2012, 09:57 AM
How old is that box of Federal? Haven't seen that design for awhile.

qcsmitty
March 10, 2012, 10:27 AM
Could you elaborate on the details a bit?

ZO6Vettever
March 10, 2012, 11:11 AM
Bought the only 2 boxes they had about a month ago at Wally World. One round was 1/8" and the other 3/16" set too deep. I called and e-mailed both. They asked for a photo and I sent that one and and the lot#E11S24 from the inside flap. I was told the send the rounds in the original box, by UPS and UPS only on my dime. Depending if they were found to be defective they would replace the two rounds. I told them if they couldn't send my a box of ammo I would post the pic on a couple forums. They actually said "go ahead". I guess ammo sales are so good that they don't give a hoot. This is the 3rd one I posted on. Any product made will have a boo boo once in a while. There's no excuse for bad customer service.

The Sarge
March 10, 2012, 11:14 AM
All Fed ammo I guess?

HOOfan_1
March 10, 2012, 11:47 AM
Seriously? Spend $5-$6 on shipping and get replacement for 2 rounds worth about 30 cents each?

Double Naught Spy
March 10, 2012, 12:52 PM
How did you determine that the ammunition was defective? Was it defective or was it damaged? If it was damaged, where was it damaged? Was it damaged at the factory, during shipping, during handling and stocking, or did you damage the ammo somehow?

It very well may not be that the ammo was defective. Such bullet setback can occur during handling from the time of manufacture to the time the end user opens the box. I have had this happen when ordering a case of ammo and the case gets dropped. Damaged boxes of ammo would not be out for sale, but boxes that were undamaged would be put out for sale, but the impact from being dropped can still have some of the bullets setback.

There's no excuse for bad customer service.

You didn't receive bad customer servies. Unless you got a warranty with your ammunition saying otherwise, they are not obligated to pay for your return of the items to them, especially when the purported defective rounds many have been damaged after they left the factory.

The folks at Federal asked you to return the ammo for their examination and said that they would make good on the problem if the ammo was defective. I don't see anything wrong there with their customer service.

The fact that you threatened them with trying to give them bad publicity says a lot about your conversation. That they didn't outright hang up on you at that shows indicates that their customer service was not poor.

351 WINCHESTER
March 10, 2012, 01:04 PM
I had some Winchester 22 mag dynapoint ammo that was recalled due to possiblity of too much powder. My local gs had some too and when I told him of the recall he was not interested. In the interest of safety I bought his ammo and sent it all to Olin with a letter.

They sent me a case of .22 mag ammo for my trouble.

Hunterdad
March 10, 2012, 08:36 PM
How did you determine that the ammunition was defective?

I'm no expert, but I'm going to guess that with the bullets set the deep in the casing, it could cause some serious pressure increases.

broken_line
March 10, 2012, 08:41 PM
a bulllet too deep would be better than a bullet touching the lands.. as far as presure

R.W.Dale
March 10, 2012, 08:47 PM
a bulllet too deep would be better than a bullet touching the lands.. as far as presure

You are utterly and completely wrong. Especially with reguards to handgun rounds.

The round pictured left would probably run triple the pressure of the round on the right.

posted via mobile device.

Double Naught Spy
March 10, 2012, 08:54 PM
How did you determine that the ammunition was defective?

I'm no expert, but I'm going to guess that with the bullets set the deep in the casing, it could cause some serious pressure increases.

Right, you don't want to be shooting those rounds out of your gun. Bullet setback can cause pressure problems. However, saying the rounds are defective and demanding Federal make good on the rounds certainly implies the OP thought the problem was from the manufacturing process whereas I noted you can have the same problem when cases of ammo are dropped that damages the ammo in that manner and hence isn't the fault of Federal.

Redlg155
March 10, 2012, 09:23 PM
I would have sent in just the two rounds and the flap with the lot number. Sure it's an exercise and futility, but someone is bound to say "Who the heck asked for these rounds back?" . I'm betting you would get at least a box or 2 back.

ntex2000
March 10, 2012, 09:29 PM
I think Federal should have mailed him a shipping label and asked for him to immediately send it in for inspection. Any customer complaint of defective ammo should be taken seriously and be dealt with immediately. Yes, he probably shouldn't threatened to post bad publicity, but it still should have never got to the point where he felt he had to react to get some action. I'll give the benefit of the doubt to our THR poster and will not buy any Federal ammo lest the same thing were to happen to me. I doubt the same situation would have escalated had it been Hornady ammo.

ObsidianOne
March 10, 2012, 09:39 PM
How did you determine that the ammunition was defective? Was it defective or was it damaged? If it was damaged, where was it damaged? Was it damaged at the factory, during shipping, during handling and stocking, or did you damage the ammo somehow?

It very well may not be that the ammo was defective. Such bullet setback can occur during handling from the time of manufacture to the time the end user opens the box. I have had this happen when ordering a case of ammo and the case gets dropped. Damaged boxes of ammo would not be out for sale, but boxes that were undamaged would be put out for sale, but the impact from being dropped can still have some of the bullets setback.

Does it matter if Haley's Comet smacked into it and caused it to set back? It's still Federal's product, representing their company, and if it is defective and causes harm or loss of life because of their ammunition, they are legally liable.

I'm sure if you bought a condom that had a bunch of tiny holes in it and you used it, you'd be pretty mad and hold the company liable.

You didn't receive bad customer servies. Unless you got a warranty with your ammunition saying otherwise, they are not obligated to pay for your return of the items to them, especially when the purported defective rounds many have been damaged after they left the factory.

The folks at Federal asked you to return the ammo for their examination and said that they would make good on the problem if the ammo was defective. I don't see anything wrong there with their customer service.

The fact that you threatened them with trying to give them bad publicity says a lot about your conversation. That they didn't outright hang up on you at that shows indicates that their customer service was not poor.

I can understand if they wanted you to pay upfront for the shipping and if the ammunition is found to be faulty they will reimburse. Replace two rounds? That's insulting. I'd tell them to give them to the QC employees who checked that lot as their pension when they can them and let them know they'd never get my business again.

It is true that we don't know exactly how the conversation went, but I can tell you that given what we know, it does NOT sound like good customer service. I've worked in this field for quite a few years and would not find that to be acceptable.

Pietro Beretta
March 10, 2012, 09:44 PM
Run it through a gun you don't like, if it Kb!'s send the parts to federal with a note from an attorney, lol. :what:

I don't suggest doing that. :o

Sunward
March 10, 2012, 10:45 PM
there was a recall about a year ago on propellants issues, just check your lots numbers below.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/Sunward/FEDERAL_RECALL.jpg

TennJed
March 10, 2012, 10:46 PM
How old is that box of Federal? Haven't seen that design for awhile.
last time i looked in walmart the federal boxes looked like that. it was maybe 3 months ago

Liberty1776
March 10, 2012, 11:08 PM
I received the same response from them years ago on faulty shotgun ammo - bad crimp, crumpled rounds - never should have been shipped. They said the same thing - send it back at my cost - the whole box - and they'd send a certificate for two rounds. I can see going to Gander Mt with that coupon...

diesel
March 10, 2012, 11:10 PM
hi
it wouldnt by any chance be federal champion 9mm or45auto?
i have both:confused::confused::confused:

Certaindeaf
March 10, 2012, 11:16 PM
Dang, they have machines and sensors that'll blow small and or discolored potato chips off the line before packaging etc. You'd think that with something that'll blow your hand off, they'd at least employ some of this technology.

HGM22
March 10, 2012, 11:21 PM
I agree that is terrible customer service. I can see paying to ship the defective rounds with lot number on your dime (to avoid people scamming the company), but getting a reimbursement and a free box of ammo in return.

How much does a box of ammo cost? How much does losing a customer for life cost? Or, how much does a lawsuit cost? It is really a simple equation to solve.

Sunward
March 10, 2012, 11:26 PM
i would get a vernier and double check each OAL as well, if i had that batch. seating variations of a few thou can dramatically affect SAAMI.

vtuck2
March 10, 2012, 11:28 PM
There is certainly defective ammunition out there.

I won't mention the manufacturer but I had a premium box of 9x18 Makarov ammunition touted to be a high end "self defense" load. I should add this happened about 10 years ago.

But I had a squib. I had the presence of mind not to pull the trigger which was a good thing because the gun went into battery because the squib round was just far enough down the tube to allow this.

I cleared them both and continued firing. A short time later I had a second one. I gingerly finished the box. I simply made sure I got a full loud report after each shot.

I haven't bought any of their stuff since. I did not take the trouble to contact the manufacturer although looking back - I should have.

I would not however have threatened to out them on the internet. In my opinion, and with all due respect, that has a slight whiff of extortion.

V

Jeff F
March 10, 2012, 11:32 PM
I find defective rounds all the time in factory ammo. Primers seated sideways, bullets set to deep, etc. I just toss em in the dud bucket at the range. It happens, I know it happens and it is not worth my time or money to get a few rounds replaced. I inspect every round of ammunition I buy either before I go shooting or before it gets loaded into magazines or guns. All boxes of ammo that have been inspected have a little sticky dot stuck on them.

writerinmo
March 11, 2012, 12:26 AM
I had two primer-only rounds in one 100-pack of 9mm WWB, I don't buy them now. I have yet to have any problems with Federal, Blazer brass, PMC or Remington but I'm sure someone somewhere has. I inspect before loading, but don't go as far as to weigh each round, although if the trend of bad ammo continues it might not be too far off where I do.

jtiggidy
March 11, 2012, 01:27 PM
I think it's a bit silly to "boycott" a ammo company because of two supposedly defective rounds. If you continue with expectations like this you can also expect that soon you will not have any manufacturers left to choose from.

I also agree with Federal's response to this issue.. if they honored every single request for free boxes of ammo for every single bad round they would no longer be in the business of selling ammo, they would be busy giving it away. Lets be realistic, most of the complaints would not be legitimate.

When I buy Federal champion or bulk ammo I understand that I am not buying match grade perfection and expect to have some slight variance or defects. Honesly, I have VERY FEW problems with federal champion/bulk which makes it a great value in my eyes. In this case based on the round in question and how they are packaged I suspect something was dropped on the box somewhere between federal and the walmart shelf. They dont ship them with the double clam shell foam case and could easily be compressed, did you inspect the inside of the foam box cavity for the round in question? ** Nevermind I just realized that champions come with the 1/2 plastic tray's with makes it even more probable. **

elano
March 11, 2012, 01:53 PM
That's terrable! I did not expect this from federal.

LANDMAN4389
March 11, 2012, 03:38 PM
I had a problem with some Federal .22lr bulk ammo a while back. I contacted Federal and they sent me a shipping label, sent the ammo back and received double back what I had sent in.

I've had nothing but a good experience with Federal. Maybe you just spoke with the wrong person.

jimmyraythomason
March 11, 2012, 04:27 PM
Only 2 rounds? Chunk them and get on with your life. Not a good idea to try to blackmail the manufacturer over 2 round trying to get an entire box free.

J_L_A
March 11, 2012, 07:38 PM
So....is the cartidge in the middle safe to shoot?
I know the one on the left is not.... but I have a box of Remington that kind of looks like the middle bullet compared to my Federal and Winchester .

MachIVshooter
March 11, 2012, 10:04 PM
seating variations of a few thou can dramatically affect SAAMI

I know what you mean, but SAAMI is the Sporting Arms & Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute; Bullet setback will not affect them ;)

http://www.saami.org/

Claude Clay
March 11, 2012, 10:34 PM
good example of why one should keep their eyes on their hands when loading.

despite fault, its your self and your equipment that lack of attention can cause ill events.

glad your ok. im gonna go with your did not really set out to 'threaten' them--their poor response to your problem likely lead to your having to feel mistreated and you spoke off the cuff, so to speak.

pockets
March 12, 2012, 07:44 AM
you didn't receive bad customer service. Unless you got a warranty with your ammunition saying otherwise, they are not obligated to pay for your return of the items to them, especially when the purported defective rounds many have been damaged after they left the factory.
The folks at federal asked you to return the ammo for their examination and said that they would make good on the problem if the ammo was defective. I don't see anything wrong there with their customer service.

this! +1

.

animator
March 12, 2012, 02:16 PM
Dang, they have machines and sensors that'll blow small and or discolored potato chips off the line before packaging etc. You'd think that with something that'll blow your hand off, they'd at least employ some of this technology.
Who's to say that they don't? If that damage happened after it left the factory, there's not much the factory can do about it.


Should they start bubble-wrapping each and every round to prevent shipping damage? Do you want to pay for that extra packaging and waste? Do you want to spend the extra time to unwrap each and every round? They've done what is reasonably expected to deliver goods to their consumers, and to expect more would be selfish in this case.


Out of the millions upon millions of rounds that this company produces, consider that even with a fault rate of .001%, there are still going to be a few thousand bad rounds that will end up in some consumer's hands over time.


I can't call this bad customer service.

Certaindeaf
March 12, 2012, 02:25 PM
Who's to say that they don't? If that damage happened after it left the factory, there's not much the factory can do about it.


Should they start bubble-wrapping each and every round to prevent shipping damage?.
It seems that plausible deniability is the name of the game these days. What is "is"?
Who's do say that they do? Are you?
It'd take a semi rolling over it to do that.
Have you seen some of the other threads? Are you saying there's an invisible gnome cold chiselling brass etc? nevermind

RickMD
March 12, 2012, 02:48 PM
This post certainly won't discourage me from buying Federal. If they replaced two rounds with a free box, every scam artist in the world would be busy bumping bullets deeper into the cases and claiming free ammunition and shipping. To me, this is akin to buying a new car, having a malfunction with a door lock, and demanding GM replace the entire car.

animator
March 12, 2012, 02:57 PM
It seems that plausible deniability is the name of the game these days. What is "is"?
Who's do say that they do? Are you?
It'd take a semi rolling over it to do that.
Have you seen some of the other threads? Are you saying there's an invisible gnome cold chiselling brass etc? nevermind



Are you kidding me?


To say that a mass manufacturer of ammunition doesn't have some sort of fail-safe QC method is ludicrous.


No mechanical method is perfect, and no human is perfect, so things are occasionally going to slip by, but to think that the company doesn't at least put a good amount of effort into preventing it, is ignorant.


And I can guarantee you that it would not take a semi truck driving over a box of ammo to reproduce that. In fact, I could reproduce that with a few drops from no higher than standing height...



This post certainly won't discourage me from buying Federal. If they replaced two rounds with a free box, every scam artist in the world would be busy bumping bullets deeper into the cases and claiming free ammunition and shipping. To me, this is akin to buying a new car, having a malfunction with a door lock, and demanding GM replace the entire car.



^ This guy gets it.

Certaindeaf
March 12, 2012, 03:15 PM
^
True. One cannot prove a negative.
The better and more "provable" manufacturing throughputs are, the harder it is for a "customer" to make a claim/sledge a $2 garage sale Rockchucker for full redemption than without.
What were you going on about?

bubba15301
March 12, 2012, 04:52 PM
take it back to wally world

WinThePennant
March 12, 2012, 08:24 PM
I had some Wally World Federal Champion do the same thing. I've never seen that before.

HGM22
March 12, 2012, 08:55 PM
"Getting it" is realizing that the several hundred+ dollars a customer will spend lifetime on ammo trumps $10 worth of ammo (less, actually, since that's retail price). Keep customers happy and they will keep coming back to put more money in your pocket.

Now, of course there will be scam artists, but I really think there are far fewer of them out there than some seem to think. If you haven't noticed, MANY companies from Frito-Lay to Hi-Point are opening themselves up to scammers by their guarantees and should long ago have closed their doors having been bled dry according to some of the logic posted.

And, even if there are a bunch out there, they'd have to cost the company more in scams than the company will lose by pissing off customers.

GLOOB
March 12, 2012, 09:55 PM
They aren't going to "make a deal" over the phone to give you more than you're entitled to. Cuz the person you're talking to 1. isn't authorized to do that, and 2. this could lead to abuse or more liability than they want to take on.

See, if they don't make any promises to you, they don't take on liability. It they receive a couple defective rounds from a single customer that month, they might send them a free crate of ammo. Woohoo, everyone's happy. Or.... they might receive 2 defective rounds from 20,000 different customers that month. Doh. So they start replacing the defective rounds, only. Which is all they're really obligated to do.

If they start making promises to certain customers over the phone, then everyone else will also expect the same treatment.

Then there's the potential abuse issue. A setback round isn't exactly difficult to make yourself. If limited, sure, they'll probably take care of you. But if they get a lot of setback rounds and they're suspicious, it's much better if they haven't made promises.

In general it's better to just send back defective stuff with the product ID and see what happens.

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