Dealers selling to "unsavory" characters


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Redlg155
March 10, 2012, 09:47 PM
I do a bit of buying and selling at local gunshows when they are in my area. I've even refused to sell to individuals who look as though they are gang members or look as though they have done some time in the pen. I have however seen many dealers sell and not discriminate based on percieved gang membership, even when they pull out a roll of bills to pay, yet they purchase an inexpensive weapon with chrome ..aka"bling". Just pass the background check and you are ok.
:scrutiny:
1. Should economics, or rather, the sale overide personal opinions?

2. Would you refuse to sell to someone wearing biker colors? How about someone in urban "rap style" clothing. Bear in mind that there are many bikers as well as those who wear urban clothes who are decent law abiding citizens.

3. A person in traditional arabic garb? Remove the arabic clothing and beard...does your opinion change?

4. Have you ever see a dealer refuse to sell, even though they could have passed the background check?

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guyfromohio
March 10, 2012, 09:58 PM
I don't sell to Pacific Islanders, Asians, certain Eskimo Tribesmen, and white people. Especially those wearing country Singer style clothes. And togas. I won't sell to someone in a toga.

newfalguy101
March 10, 2012, 10:03 PM
I have learned in my 42 years, you simply cannot judge an individual strictly by appearance.

I have known more than one guy, based solely on your post, you wouldnt sell to even though they are hardworking law abiding guys.

I always reserve the right to refuse a sale, although, its gonna take more than a guys appearance to cause me to refuse.

They have the money AND pass the NICS check or purchase permit, far as I am concerned, its a good sale.

guyfromohio
March 10, 2012, 10:07 PM
Admittedly, I've lied and said that a gun had been sold when it hadn't based on a phone call or post.

FIVETWOSEVEN
March 10, 2012, 10:08 PM
I don't sell to Pacific Islanders, Asians, certain Eskimo Tribesmen, and white people. Especially those wearing country Singer style clothes. And togas. I won't sell to someone in a toga.

I've never been insulted so much in my life, how dare you discriminate against my people! Pitchforks and torches at dusk! :D

3. A person in traditional arabic garb? Remove the arabic clothing and beard...does your opinion change?

No because why would it be bad in the first place?

SharkHat
March 10, 2012, 10:12 PM
So, your basic question is, "Is it okay to be prejuduced?"

Redlg155
March 10, 2012, 10:13 PM
Bear in mind that I did mention in #2 that appearances can be decieving. The sales I have refused were to individuals who made me uncomfortable. I've seen and known many "unsavory characters" in 3 piece suits.

I am in no way implying that it is ok to be prejudicial, however, it's hard for me to believe that no one has denied a sale because of political correctness.

M-Cameron
March 10, 2012, 10:14 PM
.....so law abiding people should be denied the right to protect themselves because you dont like the style of clothes they have on.........??

and even though they have passed a background check, you think they are gang members or have spent time im prison......because they wear biker leather, or a cap and baggy pants.......?


now if i was a dealer, or selling FTF.....and someone gave me a bad vibe, sure, ide refuse the sale........but ide need more evidence than what they chose to wear that day to convince me.........

hermannr
March 10, 2012, 10:16 PM
Absolutely not. The person is either a valid purchaser, or not, it has nothing to do with his clothing, bearing or haircut.

I have a neighbor who probably has not shaved or cut his hair in 20+ years. He lives in a house that is not hooked up to the grid, and that is the way he likes it.

He is probably one of the hardest working, most honest people up on this mountain. contrast that with: There are a lot of Mr. Slick 3 piece suits that are convicted felons that would cheat you at the drop of their hat..

If I get bad vibes about someone, it is usually Mr. Slick rather than Mr Want-a-be a mountain man.

mmitch
March 10, 2012, 10:18 PM
I don't, rightly, know if it is okay to be prejudiced, but I do know that every human is!

Mike

Eric M
March 10, 2012, 10:22 PM
If the guy can speak English well and seems to know how to operate a firearm safely, I have no problems.

toivo
March 10, 2012, 10:23 PM
They have the money AND pass the NICS check or purchase permit, far as I am concerned, its a good sale.
That's pretty much it. Everything else is just a fashion statement.

One exception: I've been flamed for saying this before, but I wouldn't sell a gun to a person who was obviously intoxicated. I've seen people at gun shows and in gun stores who reeked of alcohol and could barely stand up. IMO, anybody who shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car shouldn't have a gun in his hand either, even if it's in a box.

firesky101
March 10, 2012, 10:24 PM
As long as the transfer is legal I am not concerned. I have had people offer me more money to not do a transfer through a FFL. Ummm... no thank you mr. gangbanger or ATF sting operator.

jim243
March 10, 2012, 10:24 PM
This sounds like the Anti-gun people talking. Why would you take someone's 2 nd amendement rights away from them if it IS LEGAL for them to own a firearm???

Are YOU some sort of 2nd admendement basher that thinks we should have MORE gun laws based on color of skin, looks or religion????

Jim

Nushif
March 10, 2012, 10:27 PM
I know the OP and a couple of people are desperately trying to ask the question "Is it ok for me to not sell to people whose looks or behavior I don't like?" But as much as we're trampling around the bush here, that is exactly what we're asking.

I guess because it is ultimately a private sale sure, you can refuse all that stuff.

But dare I say that in my personal opinion that makes someone refusing a sale (ESPECIALLY) after a NCIS check still just as judgmental as before?

Like I said, you have every right to not sell to whomever you want, but at the end of the day I hope one of these days someone judges you as harshly as you judged that person. Because you have nothing less coming in my book.

Redlg155
March 10, 2012, 10:37 PM
I am the furthest thing from a gun basher or anti second ammendment individual. I was not given my citizenship by birth right. I earned my cirizenship by fighting for this country and serving in the Armed Forces. I then had to take a test to prove that I knew what every American should know about US history.

I never said I would not sell to certain individuals based on clothing, race, ethnicity, religion or other factors. I did say I would not be comfortable in certain situations and would personally not sell. I will also say that I've worked in state prisons for the last 14 years, so I have developed a certain "sense" about things.

This post was intended to inquire as to the nature of responses I would get. I even took some pains to make a disclaimer to #2.

Nushif
March 10, 2012, 10:41 PM
But the issue as to whether the sale should be made is unavoidably about a snap judgement based on the notions of a "moral majority."

If we truly do crystallize this down the question really does come down to "Who shouldn't we sell to because they don't conform to <insert some standard>?"

Or would you not agree?

TennJed
March 10, 2012, 10:42 PM
I personally refuse to sell to someone with no money.

Not long ago i was having a lazy day watching football. I was wearing jogging pants and a flannel shirt. I had not shaved in a couple of days. I had to run to the drugstore and I put on some flipflops. I had no intentions of getting out of the truck. I was just going to go through the drive thru.

Passed by a local gunshop and figured I would stop by since i was out. I looked homeless, but so what is was saturday and the family was out of town. They had a used Ruger Blackhawk at a good price, so I put down the debit card.

I would have been furious if someone rufused to sell me a gun because of the way I looked. I wear a suit and tie 5 days a week. Occasionally on the weekend I just don't want to get out of my couch clothes.

guyfromohio
March 10, 2012, 10:44 PM
We cannot base sales on prejudices, but we need to trust our instincts. We are the only species that puts PC before our senses. If it doesn't feel right, walk away (private sales).

mnrivrat
March 10, 2012, 10:46 PM
Just pass the background check and you are ok.

That's correct .

Anything else is simply personal bias or preduduce . I suppose you have the right to be preduduce, in my opinion ,as long as you accept that you might be on the receiving end of some of that yourself. Other opinions may vary.

TexasBill
March 10, 2012, 11:06 PM
I wouldn't refuse to sell to the people specified, though if the guy doesn't have enough sense to pull up his pants, I might wonder about him having enough sense to handle a gun.

The choice to sell or not sell, and the reasons for that choice, are up to you. Like the signs on the restaurants say, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."

Personally, I have to say that if it makes you uncomfortable to sell a firearm to a certain individual, don't do it. But be up front about it. Don't have the person fill out the 4473; don't run the background check because then you are creating the impression that passing the NICS check is the only thing separating the potential purchaser from a sale when you never intended to sell them the gun anyway. Even if I was of Arabic descent, dressed in leathers and enough bling to sink a battleship, I would be more upset by having gone through, and passed, all the hurdles just to have you say "No Sale" than to be told in the beginning that you don't like the cut of my jib.

AlexanderA
March 11, 2012, 12:01 AM
This sort of dilemma is one of the main reasons I gave up my FFL many years ago. I didn't want to have to worry about some buyer misusing a gun. Now, I would sell only to a dealer and let him worry about it.

writerinmo
March 11, 2012, 12:17 AM
I'm 52, retired Federal employee, medical discharge military after 15 years of service. I have a CCW and an 03FFL. That being said, I usually dress in a "less than casual" attire. Most days will find me in scruffy jeans or a pair of my military BDU pants, an a-shirt tucked in, maybe a tshirt over that (and my carry pistol) if it's not too hot, then either a denim jacket with no sleeves or my old BDU top (also with no sleeves) and one of my many assorted do-rags. I have a shaved head, and a mustache and goatee. My appearance would not tell you anything about me other than that I could care less about fashion over being comfortable. It doesn't speak of my character or behavior, even less about whether or not I am legally capable of purchasing a firearm. There are requirements in place for dealers to determine whether or not to sell a firearm to a person, it's probably wise to use them, despite any "vibes" that you might have. A person might appear overly nervous because his wife doesn't know that he's out buying ANOTHER gun, and he's worried about sneaking it into the house without getting caught by her...

wasr10634unme
March 11, 2012, 12:34 AM
no price tags. they ask you. talk to them. get a feel for them. talk shooting ask them about why they like the particular weapon. if you think their intentions are unsavory... "that hi-point was used by (insert name of any exhibition shooter theyve never heard of) $1000" they wont be interested and you dont have to refuse(make them do it).they might get it somewhere else but you can sleep knowing your transferred firearm wont go to ganger mcbanger's homies.

if they still want your $1000 hipoint or whatever "whoops i was mistaken that ones $10,000.00 sorry bout the mixup. you still want it?"

i dont understand that gangster dressup. if they didnt want to be profiled they could wear clothes that fit ditch the nikes and the fitted hat(i wore that stuff in middleschool. lol)

i allow myself to be profiled because of my messy hair(which will soon be dreadlocks) but as a ccp holder i dont break any laws(cept for a rolled sign now and then after looking both ways)

Nushif
March 11, 2012, 12:39 AM
i dont understand that gangster dressup.

I don't understand cardigans, pants around the bellybutton and "Sir"ing everyone and their mom either. A "Sir" is a military officer or a knight. Not some random guy. Pants around the bellybutton were hip in the 50s and you can't even find them on most modern business suits anymore, either. But hey, people can dress any sort of silly 40's way they want. Not my business they can't manage maintaining the hips for some decent pants, and wear a good shirt over a metal t-shirt like anyone normal who gets their tats from a nice local place.

Ya know?

Iramo94
March 11, 2012, 12:44 AM
I know several under cover police officers that work in the gangs unit here, and they look like they were just put in parole yesterday. Talk to them, however, and you'll see they are the nicest people you'll ever meet.
So my answer is no. I'd sell to any law abiding citizen.

mdauben
March 11, 2012, 01:17 AM
Just pass the background check and you are ok.
This.

Its not up to you to make possibly prejudiced determinations of who can or can not buy a gun. While I think its disgusting, the "gang banger" and "prison thug" look is quite popular among certain segments of the otherwise law abiding population.

Agsalaska
March 11, 2012, 01:34 AM
This thread cracks me up. Deny someone there rights because you got a feeling? Wow.

I can go look at the kids graduating from my old high school and wonder what the he'll happened. Probably the same reaction my parents generation had when they looked at us.

On a serious note, you may think you have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason but you don't. Do it to the wrong person or group of people and you can be sued.

MyGreenGuns
March 11, 2012, 01:35 AM
My appearance would not tell you anything about me other than that I could care less about fashion over being comfortable.
^this! I wear loose torn jeans, old concert t-shirts, a baggy hoodie and a well worn ballcap (sometimes backwards).

I'd hate to be shutdown when trying to buy a gun just because I dont dress like you. I'd be more comfortable if you refused straight up and just said, "You give me a bad vibe, so no sale." I wouldnt like it, but I could respect that.

As for the "no price tags" guy: I can see why you would do that. But dont get offended when I'm telling everyone about that "idiot over there that clearly doesnt know anything about his guns. (that is IF you shunned me. I imagine if we talked about it for a minute I'd probably pass your test)

But I would be more likely to sell to someone dressed "gangsta" than "dreadlocked". One of them is probably trying to look cool, the other is probably on drugs.

raubvogel
March 11, 2012, 01:45 AM
I think if it is a private sale, you as the seller can refuse to sell to someone for whatever reason, from not liking that the dreads coming off his nostrils are both left handed to him shooting his arm up while talking to you. You do not have to justify it at all.

I knew a guy who would charge people to park at his lawn on game day. But would not let anybody with a redneck-looking (i.e. dog cage on the back and so on) truck park there.

For a commercial sale, I do not know if customer meets official requirements you have to sell to him or not. But I will say that a properly fed gut feeling is very important; just make sure it is properly tuned to what really matters. Remember the people who flew the planes into the twin towers met the requirements to get flight lessons. Gut feeling should have kicked in when they were not interested in landing.

Rising around the prejudice can be hard. One way is to talk to (potential) customer and have a feel for what he is all about. I mean, which guns does he own or used? Which ammo and/or caliber he prefers? What is his gun range of choice and why? Get past the fact he's from transexual Transilvania -- and dressed to the part -- and learn a bit more about the person. After all, isn't knowing your customer the best way to sell the right item?

12131
March 11, 2012, 01:48 AM
I'm a short, mean looking oriental skin head, in jeans and T. What say you, OP?

medalguy
March 11, 2012, 01:49 AM
Ummmm.......lemme see here.......loincloths, yeah, that's it, loincloths. I'd never sell a gun to someone in a loincloth. :neener:

Seriously? You would deny someone their right to purchase a firearm based on the way they are dressed? I have two friends who are pretty high-priced attorneys. On the weekends, they put on their leathers and ride their Harleys around the mountains with their wives hanging onto the back of the bike for dear life. Should they be denied a firearm because they wear colors on the weekend?

Agsalaska
March 11, 2012, 01:57 AM
Raubvogel, first I think you are right, at least practically speaking, on private sales. On commercial sales if you deny someone the right to purchase, no matter what it is, always remember that you could have to justify it in court. I believe lawsuits in my county cost $85 to file.

So say he refuses to sell a gun and his reasoning is he is young, dressed like a gangster, talked funny, had an inner city address, and I used to work in a prison so I have a sense about these things. He might get away with it once. But if he did it twice, to two people that knew each other?.? Would you want to defend that in today's court. You would not stand a chance.

I can hear it now-'but he held the gun sideways and tried to fit it in his pants judge!!!'

AK_Maine_iac
March 11, 2012, 03:04 AM
Over the years i have belonged to a few biker type clubs. I recall one very warm August day in Maine. Our club was holding a Poker Run. The way it worked was you had a set number of check points to sign in at. At that time you was given a single playing card. At the end of the day the rider with the best poker hand won the grand prize of what ever. One of the check points happen to be in a town that was holding a gun show. You should have seen the looks we got when over 100 bikes come rolling into town. YES we where all LEO's in everyday dirty biker garb:eek: We walked right into the gun show. Don't think Belfast Maine was ever the same again after August 1979:D

To this day i am 6"2 285lbs shaved head. (after cancer treatments i decided i like skin head) Arm Ink, unshaven baggy jeans ratty old t-shirt and western style boots. My every day dress.

billdeserthills
March 11, 2012, 04:02 AM
It has been my experience that most of the gangbangers I meet at the gun shows quickly show their true colors when they try to make a bulk purchase of saturday night specials. Last time it was a banger's gf who made the purchase, she asked for everything by make & model #. A week after the sale I started getting calls from atf wanting gun trace info one at a time... I sure felt stupid and used on that deal

olderguns
March 11, 2012, 05:58 AM
I would sell to anyone who could pass a background check, but you have to realize you are judged by the way you look,, me now cleancut slacks or jeans that fit, and polo shirt most days, and never a second look ...But up till I married at 38 years old I had hair at or below my elbows, and a beard that ZZ Top would envy, can't even remember all the times the police would stop just to see (where I was going or if they could help me, even was stright out asked to leave one time sittng on a bench waiting for my brother at the mall) so dress anyway you want,,, just remember you will be judged by it fair or not...

FROGO207
March 11, 2012, 07:58 AM
If you are able to legally purchase a firearm arm I will sell it to you. That is as long as you are not acting like you are obviously drunk/drugged. Then I reserve the right to say come back in your right mind and we will try it again. I agree you get a sense of somebody who will not pass a 4473 by actions at times. But what they look/dress like being a deal breaker?? :banghead:

I am not a dealer so NOT needing to use a 4473 in Maine where FTF is legal I attempt to follow the law but if one lies to me mistakes are made.

Sav .250
March 11, 2012, 08:20 AM
Different strokes for different folks..........

Beak50
March 11, 2012, 08:55 AM
At the last gun show we sold quite a few "pocket pistols" and had two guy's ask if they could just buy with no background check.Needless to say we didn't sell to them. They were both average looking white men no gang looks or anything.My buddy said he thought they might be undercover A.T.F..But I have been to the Big show around here in"Monroeville" and have seen what I would call gangster looking guys pull out Gold cards and buy cases of SKS's.But that was when they were $50.00 apiece 20+ yrs.ago.I figure if they pass the background check sell it.But I wouldn't let someone knowingly "straw"purchase from us.

EddieNFL
March 11, 2012, 09:12 AM
"Is it okay to be prejuduced?"

You mean "human?"

Redlg155
March 11, 2012, 09:26 AM
The responses have been interesting. As to whether or not I would sell to a bald headed short asian guy...of course I would since I am a short bald headed asian guy myself.

Passing a BG check should not be the sole consideration. I have tattoos. I agree with them because they are a form of identification and self expression. But what about the guy who has a tatoo of the following, but still passes the BG check...
1%
Latin King Crown
Swatiska....and please, no one mention mistaken Native American symbols.
Lightning bolt
Tear drop
Crips, bloods, folk nation or other tattoos.

What if the guy only has a green card (INS resident alien ID card)? Note...I would sell to a green card holder IF he/she did not set off my "internal alarm".

Carl N. Brown
March 11, 2012, 09:34 AM
1. Should personal opinion overide the law? If the buyer is legal, is personal opinion just prejudice? I'll admit though to being prejudiced against people who signal bad motive or intent in wanting a gun. Or who remind me of Rich Wyatt.

2. I have known bikers who used guns responsibly (and some I would not trust with bare hands or shod feet); I have known non-bikers who should not have had guns. Biker status would not be the breaking point. Rap style clothing might be a breaking point especially if they looked like Steve Martin (if you have seen the movie you know what I mean: that was atrocious).

3. Arabic garb reminds me of the Shriners, most of whom are responsible citizens. :) I was also brainwashed by the Sinbad movies into believing there are Arab heroes as well as Arab villians.

4. I know a gun dealer who refused to sell a gun to an old lady who came in complaining about people stealing apples from her tree in the back yard. He also had a customer who was worried for his kid's sake about a drunk in the housing project. He talked the guy into getting a baseball bat instead. And glove and ball. And making sure he was seen taking his kid to the common area to practice ball.

BSA1
March 11, 2012, 09:35 AM
I was born literally on the wrong side of the tracks and raised as poor white trash by a single mom. At the beginning of each school year my mother brought us several sets of school clothes that had to last all year. So that meant by the end of school year my jeans were faded with patches sewed on to cover the holes and tears. I was picked on and teased at school.

My mother drove a 1958 Chevy that the floor pans had rusted though and could see the pavement before she traded it off.

We had a tube type b&w TV when everyone else had new color TV's.

I drive a 16 year old pickup truck with dents, rust and a tired starter that takes two tries to start (hey it ain't worn out yet).

We live in a 91 year old farm house with a barn and outbuildings in various states of disrepair.

My jeans are faded and worn. We have cats, dogs, chickens and horses running around. I am probably going to get a spring calf soon.

You know what? We love it.

I am retired LEO after 30 years with a college degree honors program. My wife has a very good paying job with very good benefits and two college degrees.

My mother never allowed us to be dishonest or feel sorry for ourselves when growing up.

When I go to gun shows in my beat up truck and faded jeans I usually have a large wad of cash in my pocket. I have found I can often get a better deal when I pull out a wad of cash and start peeling off 20's and 100 dollar bills. The reason I have that wad of cash is because I more disposible income than Mr. I am dressed better than you is I am not paying on a big mortgage, HD motorcycle, fancy new truck, car and boat.

I have occasionally encountered the type of attitude that they are not going to give me the time of day to sell me a gun because of my attire and they think I am too poor to have the money. I usually get the last laugh when I show them the wad of cash I am carrying and thank them for not letting me waste any more of my time before moving on.

My point is the poor white trash standing in front probably has the money and then some to buy guns.

The doper or biker looking dude is really a undercover cop.

So when you judge someone solely based on their appearance you are likely to be wrong.

The Lone Haranguer
March 11, 2012, 09:35 AM
You won't sell a gun to someone dressed like a biker, but you will sell one to, for example, Bernie Madoff?

Gtimothy
March 11, 2012, 09:36 AM
IMHO the gun belongs to you and you are responsible for it up to the point when the sale is complete. Being prejudice isn't the issue! If the person buying the gun makes me uncomfortable, I reserve the right to refuse the sale! It doesn't matter if he/she is White, Black, Muslim, Eskimo, Biker, etc. It is up to me to ensure that my sale is as legal as I can make it. If they pass the background check and I feel comfortable with the sale, no problem!

Bubba613
March 11, 2012, 09:37 AM
My shop is in a mixed area. About 40% of my customers are black, many working class, and many many of those are under 30. It is the uniform of that set. If they dressed "white" they'd get beaten up every day.
It isn't someone's appearance. It is other things. Their body language. The way they speak. They way they present themselves.
One customer came in with big chains etc and I figured he was a low life looking for a clip for his nahn.
Actually he worked for the DOT running one of their computer systems. He got the job after 2 tours in Iraq. He's welcome any time.
The only time I've denied a sale is if I had good indication it was a straw purchase. I would if someone appeared drunk or crazy, or said they needed the gun to kill someone.

JG727
March 11, 2012, 10:51 AM
Regardless of what ever the person looks like, you have a responsibility to your license and to yourselg to not go through with sales you believe may be suspect. If you have a gut feeling trust it. If the person feels slighted they are much more likely to.find a different dealer than file a complaint.

You aren't denying them their right, you're preserving yours. If you get sent to jail fir helping him,/her or have your license revoked, it cab get pretty hard to exercise your rights.

If they are a law abiding citizen then they can find another dealer, or they can try to convince you.

wally
March 11, 2012, 11:40 AM
even when they pull out a roll of bills to pay, yet they purchase an inexpensive weapon with chrome ..aka"bling". Just pass the background check and you are ok.

Not selling for anything other than failing the background check of having evidence of a "straw purchase" could open you to a discrimination lawsuit. I'd love to see the main stream media's response to such a thing :)

HoosierQ
March 11, 2012, 11:51 AM
We're doing those darned background checks for a reason...I guess. So if somebody passed the background check and wasn't clearly doing a straw purchase "Pssst...hey Cleatus, that's the one I want, fill out the paperwork on that one for me would 'ya"...or maybe "yep sweetie, that tech-9 right there is exactly what you need to keep your pretty self safe to and from work at night"...kind of stuff.

There are lots of bikers who are OK, ditto people wearing that urban stuff, ditto arabs. They pass the check and their ID is good, I'd do it.

Would I do a private sale to anybody I didn't know? I think not. That clean-cut guy could be covering up prison/gang tats with the pink polo shirt.

BSA1
March 11, 2012, 11:56 AM
With as common as tattoos have become in society how can you tell what a prison/gang tattoo is?

Lee D
March 11, 2012, 11:58 AM
"This sounds like the Anti-gun people talking. Why would you take someone's 2 nd amendement rights away from them if it IS LEGAL for them to own a firearm???"

"Are YOU some sort of 2nd admendement basher that thinks we should have MORE gun laws based on color of skin, looks or religion????"

Jim


well said Jim

Lee D
March 11, 2012, 12:04 PM
i wear blue jeans, work boots and sometimes offensive t-shirts. (in some folks eyes they might be anyway)
i shave my head (which does mean i wear a "do-rag" occasionally), ride a Harley, have the 2nd ammendment tattoed on my right forearm for all to see, work out with local LE at a MMA gym, and dont really care what the GP thinks about my appearance...its just me. yet i have a clean record, a permit to carry and suprise suprise, i own my own business. would my looks lead you to think i was "shady"? would you NOT sell me a gun? fine by me, i'll take my business elsewhere and spend my hard earned money.

gym
March 11, 2012, 12:09 PM
Can't judge a book by it's cover. Radicals send others to buy their guns for them

raubvogel
March 11, 2012, 12:17 PM
So say he refuses to sell a gun and his reasoning is he is young, dressed like a gangster, talked funny, had an inner city address, and I used to work in a prison so I have a sense about these things. He might get away with it once. But if he did it twice, to two people that knew each other?.? Would you want to defend that in today's court. You would not stand a chance.

It seems you did not read my reply entirely. What I said was to talk to the customer and get a feel for who he/she/it is. This way you can not only go past the initial reaction due to his look/accent/whatever but also help him choose the right firearm and maybe even turn this sale in a service (suggest courses, how to handle it in a family setup, etc). And sometimes even get a really interesting story in the process.

That nervous filthy Arab-looking guy could be a university professor who was working on his lawn all day and wants something to protect his wife and kids. Maybe he walked in thinking on a pistol and, once you understand his situation, may be better served with a shotgun.

Also, if a nicely dressed guy walks in and acts like an ass demanding you to drop what you are doing to sell a gun really should be doing business somewhere else.

Would you sell a pistol to someone who starts aiming it at everyone on the store?

IMHO, the difference between Wal-Mart and a specialized gun/archery/electronics/sports/sex store is that in the latter you are less concerned in doing a quick sale and more concerned about using your knowledge to provide the customer with the best solution, building a relationship in the process. That has nothing to do with your look.

FYI, owner of the place I buy my tennis/running shoes will talk to you and look at your feet and do some other crap before suggesting a shoe. And then you have to walk on the store while he goes back and feels the shoes and ask you questions. I have seen him turning people away because they were asses or just wanted a $300+ sneaker because it was the hip shoe of the week.

k-frame
March 11, 2012, 12:17 PM
3. Arabic garb reminds me of the Shriners, most of whom are responsible citizens. I was also brainwashed by the Sinbad movies into believing there are Arab heroes as well as Arab villians.


FWIW 99.9% of the time when you see someone in the US wearing a turban he is not Arabic and is not Muslim. He is of the Sikh faith and is likely from India - or the UK which has the second-highest Sikh population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh

In my 57+ years travelling the globe I have very rarely seen men from the Middle East dressed in so-called traditional clothing outside their native lands, and even that is rare. Mostly they dress as does the rest of the world. Look at the CNN news coverage of what's happening in Syria or Lybia. See any turbans?

So if you need to judge the book by it's cover, at least know something about the cover. :scrutiny:

ApacheCoTodd
March 11, 2012, 02:10 PM
I've many times refused to sell based upon a personal decision on my part and a couple of times refused a sale based upon very informal requests by a couple different major southwestern cities' municipal police. Till it leaves my hands, it's mine and I get to decide whether I want the potential buyer to have it or not. Each of these decisions has been based upon conduct and/or conversation and never appearance - not once!

Is it discrimination? Absolutely.

xfyrfiter
March 11, 2012, 05:23 PM
I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.

The War Wagon
March 11, 2012, 05:28 PM
"Unsavory characters," eh? So DOJ folks have tried to buy from you TOO, huh? :rolleyes:

BLB68
March 11, 2012, 05:57 PM
If someone gives you a bad vibe, then don't sell to them. It's that simple. For me, while appearances can make a first impression, I don't tend to judge before talking to the person a bit first.

As for the posts talking about denying someone their rights... really? There's no right to buy enumerated in the Constitution. That's like saying getting infracted on a message board is denying your freedom of speech.

fallout mike
March 11, 2012, 06:12 PM
I think the op is on to a great idea. That should be part of the background check. After you are approved they should get to see you via webcam and ask you a few questions maybe before they decide if you should have the gun or not. Atta way to come up with a great idea man. Keep up the good work.

jim243
March 11, 2012, 06:25 PM
"Unsavory characters," eh? So DOJ folks have tried to buy from you TOO, huh?

LOL, Now that's funny.

Redlg155
March 11, 2012, 06:30 PM
I forgot to mention "Doomsday Preppers" as well. Why not:scrutiny:

Make sure you keep track of the end of the world on the Cheaper than Dirt catalogs. They keep a running total of days left.

brboyer
March 11, 2012, 06:50 PM
I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.
:scrutiny:
It appears that you are not a very well informed citizen.

runes
March 11, 2012, 06:54 PM
I have been to gun shows where dealers will put up a sign that says speak English or go to another table.
I assume that if you are an american you can speak the language.

Bubbles
March 11, 2012, 06:59 PM
I have been to gun shows where dealers will put up a sign that says speak English or go to another table.
I assume that if you are an american you can speak the language.
At least I can see a reason for that one, as you don't know if the folks on the other side of the table are setting up a straw purchase if you can't understand what they're saying.

newfalguy101
March 11, 2012, 07:02 PM
I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.
Actually, I have the right to refuse a sale to anyone for any reason,or as far as that goes, NO reason.

I have only refused one single solitary sale in the nearly eight years of having my FFL.

A kid ( well young adult really but.... ) approached my table and looked at a CZ-82 I had.

Looked it over, asked a couple questions and said he would take it.

The guy filled out the 4473, handed it to me along with his DL and Purchase permit.

I start through the form and see the written address is different than his DL, I then see that his Purchase permit has yet another address. Three forms and three addresses. I pointed this out and said, "and I suppose you want to write a check??"

He replied in the affirmative and I asked which address it had, when he told me it was a DIFFERENT address yet, I just told him I cant do this, sorry..............really ticked the guy off and I still dont think he understands what the problem was.

For what its worth, I ended that weekend without a single sale.

Lost Sheep
March 11, 2012, 07:11 PM
3. A person in traditional arabic garb? Remove the arabic clothing and beard...does your opinion change?

4. Have you ever see a dealer refuse to sell, even though they could have passed the background check?
No, I draw the line at naked, shaven guys.

Seriously, though, a friend of mine was almost refused a gun because he is not a citizen (he is a legal, permanent resident, married to a citizen).

Admittedly, this was by a clerk who may have been unschooled, but who was also somewhat rude to my friend (who, by the way is British and a retired policeman who, in his job was among the few authorized to carry).

Some sellers have the right to refuse. I would think that most retailers would risk opening themselves up to a discrimination lawsuit.

Lost Sheep

Agsalaska
March 11, 2012, 07:45 PM
Raubvogel-I agree with you. It is always important to talk to your customers to get a good feel for them. Not only does it help you get them what they need but it can prevent straw purchases as well.


I keep seeing this 'I have the right to refuse business to anyone for any reason' pop up. So I have to say it again. People selling commercially, no matter what it is, really don't have that right. Guns are no different. Let me rephrase that-you do have the right, but can be sued and will lose for SOME reasons. If you make the decisn that you are not going to sell to a single individual because he stunk so bad it was disrupting your shop, you could get away with that and defend it. You could probably also get away with making that decision based on gang tattoos. But if you made that decision based on race, sex, style of dress, sexual orientation, etc. You could find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit. That is a dangerous approach, especially if you have three or four employees and are not at your business every day.

Trunk Monkey
March 11, 2012, 08:20 PM
I am in no way implying that it is ok to be prejudicial,

That's exactly what you are implying

Redlg155
March 11, 2012, 08:35 PM
Trunk,...so you, and others believe that one should not "discriminate" and sell to someone with obvious gang affiliation, ie, clothing, identifying tattoos, knowing full well that they are likely to be involved in some criminal enterprise based on the notion that "if he passes the BG check, he must be ok!"?

Nushif
March 11, 2012, 08:48 PM
The problem is that tattos and some sort of clothing does not mean gang affiliation and criminal endeavor.
Anymore than a nice suit or good car or clean accent or good shave means "non-criminal.

Trunk Monkey
March 11, 2012, 08:57 PM
Trunk,...so you, and others believe that one should not "discriminate" and sell to someone with obvious gang affiliation, ie, clothing, identifying tattoos, knowing full well that they are likely to be involved in some criminal enterprise based on the notion that "if he passes the BG check, he must be ok!"?

Yes, we are a nation of laws not feelings, hunches or predjudices. If a person passes the background check and isn't making an obvious straw purchase you complete the sale. Criminals do not buy their firearms from FFLs

Ignition Override
March 11, 2012, 09:06 PM
Don't forget that undercover LEOs won't look like upstanding citizens.
A guy with the same former employer in '84 had two of them on a flight from MEI to MEM.
Their vital need to avoid suspicion can require them to even 'smell the part'.

Years ago near Memphis, two grungy-looking guys were in either a gun or fist fight with a drug dealer who was very well-dressed.

A passerby assumed that the grungy guys were criminals, and the passerby reportedly used his carry gun to kill both undercover officers.

ApacheCoTodd
March 11, 2012, 10:30 PM
I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.
Well - you are completely incorrect in stating that I do not have the right to refuse service.
I do have the right to refuse service.
I have refused service.
I will continue to refuse service as I see fit.

Where issues arise are in the case in which I should refuse service based upon gender, race, age, physical ability, perceived accents and the like.

look at an extreme and very obvious example... One comes up to me at a show like Portland and is clearly, extremely intoxicated. Regardless of how that person presents physically I am not completing a firearm sale and there would be zero recourse on the part of the customer - been there, done that and got my legal fees off the zero before it was over.

SharpsDressedMan
March 11, 2012, 10:53 PM
Innocent until proven guilty. The intent of our forefathers deserves a chance. If you KNOW a person is prohibited from buying a gun, then follow the law. If you presume innocence until you learn otherwise, you are ALSO practicing the law.

Tipro
March 12, 2012, 08:11 AM
Bear in mind that I did mention in #2 that appearances can be decieving. The sales I have refused were to individuals who made me uncomfortable. I've seen and known many "unsavory characters" in 3 piece suits.

I am in no way implying that it is ok to be prejudicial, however, it's hard for me to believe that no one has denied a sale because of political correctness.
I for one think that what you're doing is just fine. It's your weapon, and you are free to choose whom you sell to. You're not taking away anyone's 2A rights; you're not saying "thou shalt not have a firearm," just "thou shalt not have my firearm." We often are forced to make character judgments, whether we will trust someone we don't know, and you should feel fully justified in your decision not to sell to someone that you don't trust.

Now, if I was the one selling the weapon, I would never make a blanket rule like "no selling to Arabs." But that doesn't seem to be what you're doing.

robb01
March 12, 2012, 08:13 AM
I have no problem who they sell to as long as they pass a background check

http://goo.gl/H9XbG

Ranger30-06
March 12, 2012, 09:51 AM
Being in the Philly/Camden area, looks can be deceiving, but they usually aren't. In the area I live in, it's pretty easy to tell what part of the area your from, and if your up to no good. The gun shop I frequent sees a little of both, and they say that it's not so much how they dress, but how they talk to you. If they can't speak much if any English, or show up with a "gimme" attitude, they won't sell to them. If, on the other hand, they are dressed rap style, but are polite and interested in being safe, they have no problem selling to them.

Your mouth says a lot more about you than your looks... And if some prison thug really wanted a gun, there's a thousand of them on every street in downtown Camden. The last place they'd go is the gun store.

Flopsweat
March 12, 2012, 10:28 AM
Wow, somehow this is denying rights? Discrimination? Some people here have a really twisted idea of how society is supposed to work.

You have the right to dress, talk and act any way you want as long as you're not harming anyone. I have the right to think whatever I want of you. You are not 5 years old. You know that what you're doing is going to have an effect. If you dress like you're poor or have bad fashion sense, you'll barely know I noticed. Dress like a gang-banger and you'll find little sympathy from me. You don't get to dress like a felon and then feel all put out because people think you might actually be one. I have no obligation to date a woman who looks like she's been passed around like a joint at a Grateful Dead concert. Nor am I obliged to sell a gun to someone who looks like they'll be making their next withdrawal from the cash register and patrons of the nearest 7-11. If you look like a mental patient, a junkie or a suicide bomber, same deal.

Dress any way you want. If I have the time to get to know you, we may become friends. If I don't, I'm going to go with the way you look and act. I'll be decent about it, but that's a far cry from trusting you.

Bubbles
March 12, 2012, 10:53 AM
I am a legal citizen of the US and have no criminal record. I have the right enumerated constitutionally to keep and bear arms . You only have the right to rufuse to sell me a gun if i cannot pass the background check and you are a FFL.
Nope, at the initial interview when we got our license, the ATF made it very clear that we could refuse a transfer or sale for any reason.

Nushif
March 12, 2012, 12:52 PM
You have the right to dress, talk and act any way you want as long as you're not harming anyone. I have the right to think whatever I want of you. You are not 5 years old. You know that what you're doing is going to have an effect. If you dress like you're poor or have bad fashion sense, you'll barely know I noticed. Dress like a gang-banger and you'll find little sympathy from me. You don't get to dress like a felon and then feel all put out because people think you might actually be one. I have no obligation to date a woman who looks like she's been passed around like a joint at a Grateful Dead concert. Nor am I obliged to sell a gun to someone who looks like they'll be making their next withdrawal from the cash register and patrons of the nearest 7-11. If you look like a mental patient, a junkie or a suicide bomber, same deal.

The problem isn't about selling firearms to people like that.

Continuously people are claming that one should deal with it if one "looks like a felon" or "dresses like a gangbanger."
But there is no real value to that! How does a felon dress? Would you sell to a felon who forgot to put on his "Felon Uniform" that day? How about a gangbanger? Is it dress or speech that makes a gangbanger? Even better ... Suicide bomber uniform. Tell me how it looks.
Can someone tell me what the "Felon Uniform" is? How about the "Gangbanger Uniform?" And how does this differentitate itself from inner city dress?

I don't think this is about denying rights. This is about presuming guilt of a felony in someone whose pants we deem too low, or whose speech isn't properly midwestern. This has nothing to do with rights and everything to do with assuming criminality ... Lemme reiterate ... ASSUMING CRIMINALITY because we disagree with what? The way someone looks? Where they were born? The color of their skin and their ethnicity?

pockets
March 12, 2012, 01:10 PM
Ya know, it's funny.....When I read the word 'felon', I tend to think of 3-piece suits and people like Bernie Madoff.

.

SharpsDressedMan
March 12, 2012, 03:48 PM
BATF may let you refuse anyone, but in a a lawsuit, a jury may not see it like the BATF. If you can't articulate WHY you are refusing sale/service, you may end up losing, and the way someone dresses or looks may not constitute a VALID reason for refusal. Discriminate recklessly at your own risk. I don't like tatoos or nose rings much, but I put up with them, quietly. It's called allowing OTHERS their freedom as long as it doesn't encroach on mine.

M-Cameron
March 12, 2012, 04:09 PM
BATF may let you refuse anyone, but in a a lawsuit, a jury may not see it like the BATF. If you can't articulate WHY you are refusing sale/service, you may end up losing, and the way someone dresses or looks may not constitute a VALID reason for refusal. Discriminate recklessly at your own risk. I don't like tatoos or nose rings much, but I put up with them, quietly. It's called allowing OTHERS their freedom as long as it doesn't encroach on mine.

i dont believe there is any law requiring you to state WHY you are refusing someone service.......if i simply dont like you, for whatever reason, i dont have to sell anything to you......


i believe its only when you issue blanket statements like "i wont sell to XXXX ethnic group,XXXX religious group, XXXX sexual orientation, ect" that you run into the possibility of getting into trouble....

evan price
March 12, 2012, 04:17 PM
Sell to who you want to sell to.

Once they did away with hoop skirts, corsets, johdpurs and powdered wigs it got so hard to tell apart the lower class scum from their noble betters. It's getting to be that I have to walk around with my riding crop and polo boots just to get service.

Oh the horrors!

Madcap_Magician
March 12, 2012, 06:05 PM
I don't judge based on appearance, but any excuses as to why you don't have a driver's license and permit to carry/purchase (required in my state) but will pay me more because you forgot are a quick ticket to me not selling you a gun. It's happened...

SharpsDressedMan
March 12, 2012, 06:43 PM
"i dont believe there is any law requiring you to state WHY you are refusing someone service.......if i simply dont like you "............................................................................................................. Well, as long as you don't believe it, I'm sure you have nothing to worry about. :rolleyes:

Nushif
March 12, 2012, 06:52 PM
I don't judge based on appearance, but any excuses as to why you don't have a driver's license and permit to carry/purchase (required in my state) but will pay me more because you forgot are a quick ticket to me not selling you a gun.

Nobody is saying that is a bad thing. That is distinctly illegal. What people are rightly worried about is denying sales or well ... ASSUMING A FELON based on the shave, height of the pants, head covering, color of skin, accent, and whatnot.
This isn't about an obvious illegality.
This is about "shady characters" (read: People I don't like) not being sold guns. And that is counter to everything we keep arguing here about these rights that are inalienable. Folks seem to feel free to not sell to someone because others pants aren't where they'd put them or because they have tats or piercings, but don't seem to stop saying they believe in equality under the law.
Because at that point ... They're not acting the part. They're assuming again ... CRIMINALITY based on their own preferences for looking some way or the other.

Yoda
March 12, 2012, 10:51 PM
I have, at a gun show in Tallahassee, informed a dealer that a group of young men who were examining his stocks had just been on their phones, describing in detail what they were looking at to someone who clearly was not there but who also had a very particular interest in what these guys brought.

Maybe they were just talking to friends who were gun enthusiasts and were trying to help their friends get a good deal. But overall, it look a lot more like they were talking to fellow gang members than to gun enthusiasts.

The lady behind the table thanked me. She said she had also been watching them and had concerns. I don't know how she resolved those concerns.

- - - Yoda

====================

fallout mike
March 12, 2012, 11:50 PM
Yoda, so in your opinion they were making a, straw purchase for fellow gang bangers instead of talking to knowledgeable friends, family, etc about which gun they should purchase or if it is a good price. Really? You think criminals pay gun show prices for guns? They can buy nearly any stolen gun on the street for $100.

M-Cameron
March 13, 2012, 12:11 AM
Well, as long as you don't believe it, I'm sure you have nothing to worry about.


ill tell you what.....why dont you post the law that says that i have to have a "valid reason" refuse anyone service.....because ide sure like to see it.

Agsalaska
March 13, 2012, 12:36 AM
i dont believe there is any law requiring you to state WHY you are refusing someone service.......if i simply dont like you, for whatever reason, i dont have to sell anything to you......


i believe its only when you issue blanket statements like "i wont sell to XXXX ethnic group,XXXX religious group, XXXX sexual orientation, ect" that you run into the possibility of getting into trouble....
OK. There is no law saying that you have to say WHY you refused service. You can always just plead guilty and face the consequences. Or you can explain WHY you refused service and hope it holds up in a court of law. But you are right, there is no law that forces you to properly defend yourself.

Here is the problem with the 'i didnt make a blanket rule about race, age, ethnicity' defense. You dont have to say it or set a rule to be found guilty of it. Example

You are running your shop on a Thursday and Mohammed comes in wearing traditional Arab dress looking for a gun. He doesnt like wearing it. He hoped when his family moved to the US when he was 12 that he would never have to wear it again. But there is a traditional Arab celebration at the community center they have rented that night, and he has to go. He is even more pissed they wont have any beer. He is not in the best mood but decided to finally come by and get that shotgun because the neighbor's house was broken into again. You already are suspicious of him because of some recent issues in your area, and he is in a bad mood. You refuse to sell him the shotgun. He is now even more upset and goes to the event. He tells his buddies, also pissed about what they are wearing, and one of them happened to marry the sister of an attorney. They decide to go to your shop that weekend wearing the same clothes just to see what happens. In the meantime your two employees witinessed you refusing service. One of them is an Iraq vet and has his own opinions. THe other wishes he was an Iraq vet and wants to show he is tough. So you go fishing that weekend and leave the store to your two employees. The arab guys come in and are refused service, rather rudely, by either or both of your employees.

Now you have a problem. The arabs, all American citizens who have never spent more than a night in jail, call the brother in law and file a lawsuit. Whats your defense? I never set a rule about arabs? Really because you have shown a clear pattern of refusing service to anyone dressed in traditional Arab attire. Not only you but your employees as well. Did you sell a gun to an Arab in traditional dress during the same time period. No. Do you think you can defend that? Well, to your point, there is no law saying that you HAVE to explain why you refused service. But you might want to think of something if you care about your livelihood.

Flopsweat
March 13, 2012, 06:33 AM
The problem isn't about selling firearms to people like that.

Actually, that is the subject of this thread. I won't sell a gun to someone I don't trust. If I have time to get to know you, I'll decide based on that. If not, I'm going by appearance and mannerisms. There is nothing wrong with that. Your ethnic background, sexual orientation, religion and gender mean nothing to me. It's how you present yourself that is important. Dress is only a part of it, but as I mentioned before, it's part of a first impression.


Continuously people are claming that one should deal with it if one "looks like a felon" or "dresses like a gangbanger."
But there is no real value to that! How does a felon dress? Would you sell to a felon who forgot to put on his "Felon Uniform" that day? How about a gangbanger? Is it dress or speech that makes a gangbanger? Even better ... Suicide bomber uniform. Tell me how it looks.
Can someone tell me what the "Felon Uniform" is? How about the "Gangbanger Uniform?" And how does this differentitate itself from inner city dress?


With all due respect, I'm sure you know what gang members look like. This isn't high school debate class.

...The color of their skin and their ethnicity?

That is way out of line.

Recap.
Title of thread: "Dealers selling to 'unsavory' characters".
Site name: The High Road.

Think on that a bit. And lay off the unfounded accusations.

SharpsDressedMan
March 13, 2012, 06:47 AM
M-Cameron, the "laws" in question are, I believe, called torts. They involve previous legal judgments made over similar cases, and provide the basis for equality and justice under the laws set forth by the constitution (federal and state). To assume you don't have to answer for discriminating against someone else, without due cause, may be reckless, and in some cses, costly. Proceed to do so at your own risk. It is much easier to justify fair and equal treatment than discriminatory treatment. Agsalaska put it very well.

JShirley
March 13, 2012, 06:52 AM
Okay, I can't see this going anyplace good from here. It's been discussed. People have changed their opinions, or not.

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