Have you ever heard such?


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Magnuumpwr
March 11, 2012, 12:01 AM
Here is a link to a news report. Chime in with your response. http://www.kiiitv.com/story/17008491/family-fears-ricocheting-bullets

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newfalguy101
March 11, 2012, 12:06 AM
Thats the very reason the local range has their baffle system in place, to prevent rounds from leaving the range

hso
March 11, 2012, 12:09 AM
What is there to be said? If the range has rounds leaving the range property they are causing a problem for others. If they are there should be physical evidence of it where the wild rounds have hit the trees/ground. If that exists the home owners have a case against the range. If the claims are false and there are no rounds escaping the range there won't be any evidence of it and there won't be much opportunity to making a case.

lloveless
March 11, 2012, 12:10 AM
Rounds should penetrate trees not riccochet. If they are indeed riccochetiing off the trees then the bullet has pretty well spent its energy already.
ll

Cosmoline
March 11, 2012, 12:10 AM
It's a potential problem as the suburbs expand further into what used to be farmland. Our own range is having issues with knuckleheads walking around out on the mud flats beyond the berms.

Bigger berms and an alteration of the angle between targets and the bench is one solution.

BemidjiDweller
March 11, 2012, 12:13 AM
I really hope they don't expect people to believe that those rounds hit his house bullet, brass, primer and all. Also, that ".50" looks way to fat to me, maybe a 20mm? Then again I haven't seen a .50 in person. That ".223" also looks way fat to me, maybe it's just a camera issue.

Magnuumpwr
March 11, 2012, 01:35 AM
I believe the rounds are for reference. Most all people know about how big a 223 rd is, but not so many about the 50. I am not saying rounds are or are not hitting his house, but pics of the impacts would have been better evidence to me. Heck even the trees should show impacts for that matter.

MistWolf
March 11, 2012, 03:49 AM
We went through the same thing out here at a gravel pit we used to shoot at. Homeowners complained to the county that they were finding spent bullets in their yards, etc. Turned out they were lying but the county closed the pit anyway

Gtimothy
March 11, 2012, 11:46 AM
I really hope they don't expect people to believe that those rounds hit his house bullet, brass, primer and all. Also, that ".50" looks way to fat to me, maybe a 20mm? Then again I haven't seen a .50 in person. That ".223" also looks way fat to me, maybe it's just a camera issue.
I was thinking the same thing about the size of the "examples". I spent almost 20 years working on or around the Vulcan Phalanx 20mm Gatling gun while in the Navy and it looks like a 20mm to me! Also the ".223" looks way fat in the guys fingers! Could be horrible camera work OR make the bullets look bigger so they look more menacing! No agenda here folks, put your heads back in the sand! As for the safety issue, things can and should be done by the range owners to prevent the possibility of bullets exiting the range proper. Just makes good sense! I'd rather have happy supportive neighbors than angry vindictive ones!

BSA1
March 11, 2012, 12:02 PM
Sadly this a problem that is spreading across the country. City slickers buy land and build a home next to a existing gun range and then complain about the noise and bullets to get it shut down.

Bullets do not richocet the way the public and media protray it. But then when does the media ever let the facts get in the way of a good lie, er story?

drcook
March 11, 2012, 12:15 PM
One of the ranges I belong to is situated in an old strip mine, so it is fairly well protected. However some folks decided to take some old plastic milk jugs and shoot at them. Unfortunately, the distance that they chose provided a perfect angle for the .223/5.56 rounds to richochet into the neighbors property. That individual range was shut down and reworked with some very explicit rules put in place. So yes it does happen. Our range committee shut down the partilcular firing lanes and spent the money to fix the issue, all voluntarily so as to keep the "good neighbor" standing. The club I belong to has been around since 1937 and at the present site since 1973.

I would suspect that if there ever is a damage to the property, or if they find a spent round, and properly documented, there is going to be a nuisance lawsuit filed. If the folks have to file an insurance claim, then the insurance companies lawyers will get involved.

It would be in the best interest of all the club's members if they objectively and honestly evaluated the issue to see if there is a problem and correct it.

armoredman
March 11, 2012, 12:27 PM
After I saw the rounds being portrayed as "bullets" PLUS the cute comment about .223 only being used in "military style assault rifles" I was done with the story.
I've seen this done before where a clever gent and his cohorts in a new housing development were successful at getting the longest open, safest range in Tucson shut down this way, and many of us at the time suspected the spent slugs were "hand scattered". If this property owner really is getting ricochets into his property the range owners should want to work with him or face potential huge lawsuits. Berm work might solve the issue, couple of hours with a bulldozer.

GCMkc
March 11, 2012, 01:48 PM
Did they mention how far his property was from the shooting range? That would be some pertinent information. They said he found a .50 caliber bullet, but never presented the evidence. C'mon guy, I need more information in order to believe you.

ApacheCoTodd
March 11, 2012, 01:57 PM
So, am I gettin' this right?

He fears for his family's safety yet moves into a home close enough to a range to cause him to fear for his family's safety?

I don't care whether he took the time to investigate the area into which he was moving his family or not. What I take from it is that the range was there first.


Reminds me of folk trying to close race tracks, airfields, land fills and the like after they buy a home too close to them.

vito
March 11, 2012, 02:03 PM
I don't know if the rounds are what are described or not, but if I wanted to frighten folks, I would take a photo of a child's hands holding normal ammo. If all you could see of the person were the hands, you might be able to make it appear that the ammo was much larger than it really is. I agree that in this case if the homeowner could show proof that rounds were leaving the range and hitting his property, I'm sure he would have a case that could be taken to court. If he just thinks this is happening, then he has no case, nor should he.

Manson
March 11, 2012, 02:36 PM
Perhaps I didn't hear the reporter properly. I thought he said the property owner found the .50 cal on his property. No one mentioned that these large caliber rounds were for demonstration purposes. The only way the unfired ammo could have been found on his property is if he planted it himself.

Additionally with the firestorm of bullets whizzing by and bouncing of his home and tree's why was he unable to show us even one of the actual bullets? In short all hearsay and no actual evidence. Sounds like an attempt at profitable litigation.

xfyrfiter
March 11, 2012, 04:35 PM
Just like the local municipality. People buy homes at the end of the local airport and complain about the noise. Cheese people look before you buy.

rcmodel
March 11, 2012, 04:47 PM
New home owners are trying to close the FOP lodge & police training range here also.
We have used it for Kansas Hunter Safety training as well for many years.

The target butts are backed up to a huge wooded bluff, and there is no way a bullet can get out of it, short of shooting in the air at a 45+ degree angle.

It's been in operation for 40+ years with never a problem.
Until a bunch of developers built new McMansions down the road from it a mile away in the other direction from the range.

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/nov/16/fraternal_order_police_asks_keep_firing_range/

rc

speedway
March 11, 2012, 05:02 PM
They can make up bull feces and file lawsuits....

Happened in CT.

http://www.savebluetrailrange.org/

The good guys finally won, but at a huge financial cost to the range.

AFDavis11
March 11, 2012, 05:09 PM
I say "JUST FIRE BACK"!

Millwright
March 11, 2012, 05:14 PM
This story, (which seems to have credibility issues ), highlights one critical area where all gun owners ought to be demanding political relief; noise ! The sole reason most outdoor gun ranges are so noisy is due to government edict ! We've had the technology to be good neighbors for a hundred years but at $200 a pop - plus a host of crippling regulations/rules - who can afford to ? I'm talking, of course, about "attenuators", (or as Hollyweird describes them, "silencers" ! By turning that muzzle blast "bark" into a muffled "yip" shooters, range workers, bystanders - and even neighbors would be happier, and certainly healthier.

Of course this story could just be an accurate representation of "new complaint" stupidity combined with arrogance rooted in pride of a new possession. As others have noted, it the "new american way" ! Just as a plane captain is "at fault" for ejecting you and your misbehaving get from his aircraft to serve safety and the sanity of the majority of his passengers..... >MW

Millwright
March 11, 2012, 05:16 PM
I thought of suggesting that too, Dave ! >MW

bhk
March 11, 2012, 05:20 PM
We had similar problems at our very well regulated range last year. A member placed some targets on the ground between the shooting benches at the berm. The FMJ bullets (7.63x39, I believe) ricocheted of the the ground, sailed over a relatively high berm, and landed in a boy scout camp a long distance down range. The member was identified and relieved of his membership.

A few years ago I was at a public, unmanned range near me when my buddy placed some empty shotgun hulls on the ground between the shooting line and the 25 yard berm as I walked back to the car for something. He began shooting at them with a 9mm handgun and I could hear the bullets sailing through the trees at the top of a HIGH cliff beyond the range. I, of couse, yelled at him to stop.

On of the most important rules for any range is to be SURE all bullet impact the berm DIRECTLY!! Bad things happen when they go over it or hit before it (the worst, I believe). BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!!!

Odd Job
March 11, 2012, 05:22 PM
Looks like we need to call in the dissident frogman to explain to that reporter the difference between a cartridge and a bullet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2sAFHBptJE

BIGGBAY90
March 11, 2012, 05:31 PM
perhaps i didn't hear the reporter properly. I thought he said the property owner found the .50 cal on his property. No one mentioned that these large caliber rounds were for demonstration purposes. The only way the unfired ammo could have been found on his property is if he planted it himself.

Additionally with the firestorm of bullets whizzing by and bouncing of his home and tree's why was he unable to show us even one of the actual bullets? In short all hearsay and no actual evidence. Sounds like an attempt at profitable litigation.
there should be some damage to some of his trees on his property when the bullet hit them and that .50 cal !wow! But anything possible

Silas
March 11, 2012, 06:53 PM
The whole thing smells fishy to me. In Texas, there is a state law prohibiting firing a "projectile" across property lines without permission from the landowners. This law was enacted to stop hunters from placing hunting blinds too lose to property bounderies and shooting onto neighboring deer leases. But it is illegal to shoot across property lines, none-the-less. If there were bullets ricocheting across their property, they would be charged.

roadchoad
March 12, 2012, 10:15 AM
Seems to me less of an issue of living near a range and more of an issue of unsafe backstop or shooting practices.

Eric M
March 12, 2012, 10:36 AM
I've always wondered why people think they can tell caliber from deformed bullets or holes in the wall. The range should do something about bullets leaving their property. You'd think they'd want to correct the problem before someone gets hurt and the range gets sued.

MtnCreek
March 12, 2012, 10:44 AM
I've seen several people send bullets over the berm. I've also seen several people hit the ground in front of the berm, far enough that the bullet may have made it over. Hate to admit it, but I sent a .30cal SMK over the 100 yd berm once. If bullets are making it to this persons property, I hope they are successful at stopping it, even if it means shutting the range down. If they're lying about it, I hope karma is real...

gym
March 12, 2012, 01:33 PM
Why not build up the berm. just doze another 10 ft of dirt above the exhisting height. Not hard to do, or expensive, and should solve the problem.
Or cover the guys house with a bullet proof dome."just kiding"
He looks like a story teller, if the news was coming to my house I would be showing then the actual bullet and holes made in the trees and wherever else he claimed they went.

Magnuumpwr
March 12, 2012, 09:47 PM
I would hope my rounds always strike the berm, but in the real world crap happens. If my house and trees were being struck by stray rounds and a news crew showed up. You could bet your rump I would be showing them places that were impacted (struck) as opposed to just telling them.

gathert
March 12, 2012, 09:53 PM
I'm more worried about getting hit by ricochets at the range, which I have encountered. They don't exactly tickle. I noticed the large dirt piles passed as berms at that range and thats about the minimum that should be the backstop for a range. It needs to be surrounded by trees if possible.

Double Naught Spy
March 12, 2012, 10:15 PM
Rounds should penetrate trees not riccochet. If they are indeed riccochetiing off the trees then the bullet has pretty well spent its energy already.

Not necessarily. Bullets can glance off the heads of animals, people, or the exterior convex surface of trees.

The other aspect is a compromise. You can have bullets that penetrate an edge or small limb, but continue afterwards in a deviated flight path. The result is both penetration and deflection.

What is there to be said? If the range has rounds leaving the range property they are causing a problem for others. If they are there should be physical evidence of it where the wild rounds have hit the trees/ground. If that exists the home owners have a case against the range. If the claims are false and there are no rounds escaping the range there won't be any evidence of it and there won't be much opportunity to making a case.

Right. Rounds sometimes leave ranges. Unintentional causes are as ricochets or negligent discharges.

Look at the rounds that manage to fly over the backstops. Some of the rounds are deflected high and then only pose a very limited falling rock risk sort of risk. Other rounds can be seen skipping of the group and leaving at a low angle with velocity. Some manage to be direct fired over the berm...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCsnSr6lqKM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifYSNO93vbI

In my own experience, I have seen tracers skip off the top of a dirt berm and continue down right at velocity.

While neighborhoods and such may grow up around gun ranges that originally were fairly isolated out in the country, it is still the responsibility of the range managment or owners to see that rounds don't leave the ranges in which they were fired and of those that do, not leave the range's property boundaries.

From what I can tell, many isolated country ranges bank on having a safety buffer of land surround the range that is unoccupied. Hence, any rounds leaving the range are no threat. The problem is, most ranges do not own the properties around them that they are counting on as a safety buffer. Using land you don't own as a buffer zone is really a bad idea and potentially illegal as it involves shooting across property lines.

We were doing shooting drills from on our backs at Thunder Ranch in Texas. The angle of the shots from shooters into their targets was such that rounds would impact very high on the berm or completely miss the berm and leave the range a full velocity. This wasn't a safety issue, explained Clint Smith, since the land beyond the berm was managed by TR and hence was being used as a buffer zone. I didn't like this given that we could not see beyond our target and bacstop, but Smith proclaimed responsibility.

jbkebert
March 12, 2012, 10:27 PM
I certainly hope they get the range fixed. The range I work at as a RSO has a baffle system. Yet not even these are ricochet proof. We occasionally hear a round skip and get out. Thankfully the direction that we are shooting does not have a home within 4 miles.

We are working our butts off trying to make things safer. Volunteers are getting organized to build a eye-brow over the end berm. We try like crazy to maintain a safe range but to be reasonably relaxed at the same time. There have been numerous threads about the nazi range safety officers and how dare they tell me how to shoot. Sometimes its for a reason and it sounds like this range needs to step up. Either with new safety features or rules on shooting or both.

Our baffles are full of 9mm and 45acp slugs yes I have dug them out. From people who just try and drain mags as fast as possible. Problem is most of them do a piss poor job of hitting a target during slow fire. So they think spray and pray is better:banghead:

Hopefully this issue can be fixed before someone gets hurt from something that can be prevented.

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