Flattened WLP primers


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tikit2ryde
March 11, 2012, 10:36 AM
Hi,

I'm looking for some help in identifying a problem.

My son and I are just gettig back into shooting and reloading after being out for about ten years,

We loaded our best load from the past using WLP primers and got a surprise.

The primers were flattened, there were no extraction problems from the cylinder or other evidence of over pressure.

Gun is a Ruger hunter 44 mag. I belive a 71/2" barrel.

Load is 180gr. XTP over 27.1gr of Vihtavuri N110 OCL 1.600

The primers are a brass color and are different than the primers I removed from the cases when I preped them.

The old primers were WLP also but silver in color and magnetic the new primers are not magnetic.

Being out of touch for ten years was there a change in material used in WLP primers , the WLP primers in my old brass are not flattened using the same load and bullet but they are silver and mgnetic?

I know this is a hot load but never had a problem before but I am concerned .

This load shoot very well and I would like to still use it.

Thanks for your help in advance.

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Salmoneye
March 11, 2012, 10:54 AM
I'm finding VV N110 suggested starting load of 25.1gr, and max of 27.1gr...

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/pdfs/Handgun-Reloading-Data-2006.pdf

I would expect the max load to flatten primers a little...If that is the only sign of pressure,
I would not stress...Over time max loads will take their toll on brass and gun though...

Walkalong
March 11, 2012, 11:12 AM
I shoot 20.4 Grs N100 under a 240 Gr jacketed bullet for 1350ish FPS from a 5.5" Redhawk. That is all the power I want. No signs of pressure on my WLP brass colored primers.

For a 240 Gr jacketed bullet the 2011 Vihtavuori PDF gives a start load of 20.4 for 1427 FPS and a max of 22.1 for 1541 FPS from a 7" (presumably test - no cylinder gap) barrel.

1300 to 1350 FPS is my happy spot with a 240 gr jacketed bullet in my Redhawk.


For a 180 Gr jacketed bullet the 2011 Vihtavuori PDF gives a start load of 25.2 for 1614 FPS and a max of 27.1 for 1751 FPS from a 7" (presumably test - no cylinder gap) barrel.

Did you start low and work up to 27.1 Grs Max load? We should never just pick the max load out, even with reliable load data, and start there. We should always start low and work up to it, stopping short of it if we see anything that alarms us.

Some pics of the primers would help greatly.

Welcome to THR.

tikit2ryde
March 11, 2012, 11:45 AM
This is a load we had worked up 10 years ago as I mentioned just starting back in the sport.

Will try and send some photo's.

But as I mentioned the primers a not the same I may try different primers.

I have noticed that VV powders have changed some of their loads, I have 7 different editions including the newest off the internet.

I know the load is hot but that is why we shoot a 44 magnum.

Thanks

243winxb
March 11, 2012, 11:58 AM
Flat is ok.

rcmodel
March 11, 2012, 01:28 PM
If brass ejects normally, it is fine.

If you have to pound on the ejector rod, it isn't.

rc

gamestalker
March 11, 2012, 09:47 PM
I load a lot of magnum stuff using Win and CCI, and what I've noticed is the Win. primers flatten a bit mroe than do the CCI's with the same charge of H110.

So long as you aren't seeing any high pressure signs, real high pressure signs such as difficult or sticky extraction, then your pressures are fine. Primers are about the worst sign to rely on to determine over pressures with.

Sport45
March 11, 2012, 10:31 PM
This is a load we had worked up 10 years ago as I mentioned just starting back in the sport.

Will try and send some photo's.

But as I mentioned the primers a not the same I may try different primers.

Welcome to The High Road!

It's always good practice to reduce your load a bit and work back up whenever changing a component.

Edarnold
March 11, 2012, 11:57 PM
The old Winchester primers were heavily plated producing a silver appearance, probably with nickel, also probably to avoid corrosion. The new plain brass version is bound to be softer, therefore more likely to flatten and crater. I also note that the new boxes for WLP indicate they are for standard and magnum loads, since Winchester's line of powders are all Ball-type, they would need a hotter priming compound to ensure proper ignition. Again, hotter primer = flatter primer.

In a magnum caliber revolver, the deciding factor is extraction: if you have to beat the ejector to get the cases out, either your brass is too soft or the load is too hot.

IMHO :)

joneb
March 12, 2012, 12:19 AM
If brass ejects normally, it is fine.
If you have to pound on the ejector rod, it isn't.
From my experience sticky shell extraction is a sure sign of over pressure. In a over pressure situation the chamber will expand and spring back, the brass having less memory will expand and spring back less and thus stick in the chamber and that is bad.

Steve C
March 12, 2012, 01:29 PM
This is the reason manuals say you should work up your load every time you change components specially if using a different can (lot) of powder or change primers, cases, bullets. Back off a few grains and see if the problem goes away.

918v
March 12, 2012, 01:38 PM
Lets see some pics before we call this a "problem."

CraigC
March 12, 2012, 04:07 PM
So-called pressure signs in straight walled revolver cartridges are meaningless. Trust your data and verify with a chronograph.


From my experience sticky shell extraction is a sure sign of over pressure.
Or just rough chambers.

tikit2ryde
March 12, 2012, 10:25 PM
Thansks for all the help.

We do not have any extraction problems with the cases they don't fall out but I can eject them with one finger and not much pressure.

This is a load that I have shot before many many times.

In the photo's the starline brass has the new WLP.

The winchester has the old style primer


Again thanks for the help.

joneb
March 12, 2012, 11:26 PM
So-called pressure signs in straight walled revolver cartridges are meaningless. Trust your data and verify with a chronograph.
The data typically is safe for the weaker guns chambered for a cartridge, so if you have a Ruger Redhawk chambered for 357 magnum or a Freedom Arms model 97 in 44 spl. is it safe to load above the published maximum ? and how will you know when you are there ?

918v
March 12, 2012, 11:56 PM
Looks OK to me.

Walkalong
March 13, 2012, 02:00 PM
Me too.

Searcher4851
March 13, 2012, 04:44 PM
You're pretty much running a max load. I'd pretty much expect to see the primer like that. The newer Win primers (brass colored) seem to be a little softer than the old "silver" ones. I'd bet with the old primers, there would be less flattening with the same load. Either way, from the pics, it looks like no big deal, I just wouldn't UP the load from there.

Welcome to the forum.

FROGO207
March 13, 2012, 09:51 PM
Looks about the way mine look when using Win primers and a hot load. I would say you are good to go. If you don't like those primers switch to CCI and they will not flatten as easily.

tikit2ryde
March 13, 2012, 10:50 PM
Thanks,

I may try the CCI primers to see how they look, like I said I know this is a max compressed load just needed to bounce it off others to see if it looked safe, it has been 10 yrs. since we loaded any rounds.

Thanks again for the help.

Sport45
March 15, 2012, 10:59 PM
I may try the CCI primers to see how they look, like I said I know this is a max compressed load just needed to bounce it off others to see if it looked safe, it has been 10 yrs. since we loaded any rounds.

If I was at a "max compressed load" I would not change any component without first reducing the load.

JLDickmon
March 15, 2012, 11:30 PM
looks good to me.. If my cell phone didn't have such a crappy camera, I'd show you some FLAT primers...

rfwobbly
March 15, 2012, 11:34 PM
From my pal Walkalong....

The one on the right is when you start worrying!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KhlVtNowBSA/TLJkiMyUdsI/AAAAAAAACu0/40LNm5cdam8/s640/FiredPrimers.JPG


Welcome to THR.

JLDickmon
March 15, 2012, 11:38 PM
#23
rfwobbly
Member


Join Date: November 14, 2008
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 3,076

From my pal Walkalong....

The one on the right is when you start worrying!

yep.
THAT'S a flattened primer

joneb
March 16, 2012, 01:13 AM
The one on the right is when you start worrying!
It's when the head stamp goes away I get concerned :evil:

Old Dog Man
March 17, 2012, 02:30 AM
I use 22.5gr of 2400 behind a 240gr HJHP and Rem. 91/2 primers in my Super Black Hawk, no pressure signs, but is awsome on recoil, but very accurate. I would not reccomend it for a side plate revolver though, kinda makes the side plate stick out after a few rounds. Al

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