Warning: Do not use Tula .308!!! This is why!!!


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Jackal
March 11, 2012, 08:45 PM
EDIT: After contacting customer service and sending them my pictures, they have happily agreed to pay for the damaged rifle, either fix it or replace it, whichever the local gunsmith suggests. They will refund the leftover ammo and my first aid supply costs (fairly minimal, but still...). Upon further inspection, I have found that the rear of the locking lugs, buttstock end, appears to have been damaged. There is new, shiny damaged steel in the lug recess's. The over pressure round appears to have set back the bolt. Bolt setback is not good. But, I am so far pleased with the customer service. They have found the round to be faulty and they will pay the damages to make me whole. Cant ask for much more than that.



Today, after shooting many of my rifles at the local gravel pit range, I decided to pull out my Ishapore 2A1 .308 (ya, 7.62, I know and this is not the place to debate this). I have nearly 1,000 rounds through this rifle, brass case surplus, commercial ammo, Brown Bear steel case, etc. Today, I decided to try Tula... Never again. On the 7th round, the report was much louder, the recoil much heavier and I had a pain in my arm and my cheek and my hat went flying. I opened the bolt (no resistance) to find a complete case head separation. Thank god the Enfield has good gas flow. My left wrist is now burnt and I have many tiny pieces of metal/residue stuck under the skin. I treated it immediately with my first aid kit (yes, I always have one). My rifle blew the magazine out of the bottom, damaged the ejector and the ejector cut in the barrel. I have already sent Tula a message detailing the unpleasant experience. I have not yet decided to go to the hospital or not yet, to get the debris removed (cant really afford it). I am awaiting their response. I have pictures and an eye witness. I am not a happy camper.

Do not use this ammunition, I noticed it has a surprisingly high risk of failure after looking around online at various other over charged rounds of the same type. This thread is useless without pictures, so here they are, of the rifle and my arm.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/tgstoken/IMG_5670.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/tgstoken/IMG_5673.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/tgstoken/IMG_5679.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/tgstoken/IMG_5682.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/tgstoken/IMG_5677.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/tgstoken/IMG_5676.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/tgstoken/IMG_5678.jpg

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Hollerpoint
March 11, 2012, 08:49 PM
That is not good. I'm glad you are ok mostly. Ive sent a lot of Tula down the tube without a problem, but this makes me wary. If you will go to the trouble to find out what other labels Tula ammo may carry I'm willing to avoid shooting this stuff.

Redlg155
March 11, 2012, 08:54 PM
Glad you are ok. As for medical attention, just keep some antibiotic ointment on it and watch for infection. Any particles will eventually migrate to the top. There are some Nam Vets that are still picking out tiny bits of shrapnel to this day.

spikedzombies
March 11, 2012, 08:55 PM
I've sent 200+ rounds of tula 308 down the tube of my savage bolt action without any problems. I use it to get on paper when zeroing and plinking short distances.

"Sent while riding my purple unicorn bareback through the clouds"

R.W.Dale
March 11, 2012, 09:02 PM
That is a very interesting place for a case failure. And it apperars to be just that a complete case failure.

Just thank your stars you weren't shooting a small ring Mauser

posted via mobile device.

SlowFuse
March 11, 2012, 09:05 PM
Glad this didn't turn out worse. Hopefully they'll make good on this. I've always wondered how their (russian, serbian etc) coverage would be if there's a factory error that causes damage.

bikerdoc
March 11, 2012, 09:05 PM
There are some Nam Vets that are still picking out tiny bits of shrapnel to this day.


My last one came out in 08.

Clean the area well and often. Any sign of infection see a MD.

Jeff F
March 11, 2012, 09:33 PM
Heres how I see it. Now I'm an Enfield shooter, no Ishapore but a couple No 1's and a few No 4's and I have had a few case head separations, all were with reloaded ammo that was full length resized and shot in a rifle that had a generous chamber.

Steel cased ammo does not stretch as good as brass. Your shooting steel cased ammo in a rifle that may have a chamber that is on the large side and the head space may be on the long side. Add the two together with steel cased ammo and the steel case could not stretch enough and failed at the case head.

Sorry for your injury and bad experience and I hope you heal quickly and get your rifle back together. I really don't think it was just the ammo, I think it was a combination of a number of things and the platform you were shooting it out of.

Kachok
March 11, 2012, 09:40 PM
Dang, never had that happen, I did have a Winchester 130gr 270 blow the primer out, but it did not hurt me.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
March 11, 2012, 09:41 PM
Have to agree with Jeff here. I have a strong feeling that it was a combination of all said there. It's why I would never shoot steel cased ammo out of any of my Enfield rifles. I usually only neck size my reloads on fire formed brass for this very reason. I personally don't think it was an overcharge simply from the minimal damage. A true overcharge would have done a LOT more damage than that.

Geno
March 11, 2012, 09:56 PM
You should consult with an MD regarding the implications of that metal in your skin, and future MRIs.

Glad you were not injured more seriously.

Geno

R.W.Dale
March 11, 2012, 10:05 PM
Ill bet the OP is OK wrt metal in his skin simply because as you can see from the pics pretty much all the case is accounted for with nothing missing.

posted via mobile device.

Shadow 7D
March 11, 2012, 10:09 PM
Like others have said, steel ammo and excessive headspace (and think about, the have different size bolt heads for a reason) something Enfeilds are KNOWN for.

I would say it's a platform incompatibility, hell enfeilds are know for eating brass by stretching out the web until you risk failure on reloads.

Feed the steel case to an autoloader (G3 anybody) and you'll be fine.

Owen Sparks
March 11, 2012, 10:12 PM
A strong magnet might remove any steel particles.

Dmitri Popov
March 11, 2012, 10:18 PM
Three things:
1. Sorry for your injury but I do agree with the above, it was most likely a combo of problems.
2. Herter's ammo is tula made, says so on head stamp.
3. To remove the metal, take a good sized potato, cut in half, place the cut open part on your injury where the metal fragments are. Leave it for about half bour or so, the potato will draw out the pieces of metal. You'll see them stuck on the potato lookin like glitter. Its an old metal workin trick, worked for my buddy darn well to get metal bits out of his EYE! Lol...

Jeff F
March 11, 2012, 10:27 PM
A strong magnet might remove any steel particles.
An MRI is a very strong magnet! His injury's look like powder burns with possibly a little molten metal splatter mixed in. Just keep it clean and use a topical antibiotic ointment and watch for infection.

bushmaster1313
March 11, 2012, 10:28 PM
Another good reason not to buy bagged ammo at a gun show

68wj
March 11, 2012, 10:45 PM
Never seen a case fail at that spot. Glad you are okay.

ObsidianOne
March 11, 2012, 10:51 PM
Wow, glad you're okay. Looks like it could have been a lot worse.
Russians need to stick to their own ammo! :P

And for the sake of a smile, in Soviet Russia, gun shoots you!

Three things:
1. Sorry for your injury but I do agree with the above, it was most likely a combo of problems.
2. Herter's ammo is tula made, says so on head stamp.
3. To remove the metal, take a good sized potato, cut in half, place the cut open part on your injury where the metal fragments are. Leave it for about half bour or so, the potato will draw out the pieces of metal. You'll see them stuck on the potato lookin like glitter. Its an old metal workin trick, worked for my buddy darn well to get metal bits out of his EYE! Lol...

I believe there are certain types of Herters that is made in the US, not Tula made; I recall reading it in a magazine, FWIW.
But I believe it was just some pistol calibers.

Very interesting technique. I wonder what would cause the steel to be attracted to the potato? :P

kozak6
March 11, 2012, 10:52 PM
The Ishapore Enfields are well known for having or developing excessive headspace.

Case head separations are a sign of excessive headspace.

Chances are, the problem is with your rifle instead of the ammo. You can check other previously fired cases for signs of impending separation, if you would like.

It would be worthwhile to have a gunsmith check the headspace.

M1key
March 11, 2012, 10:57 PM
Ishapore.

Enfields are a bit notorious for generous headspace. More than likely the problem, not the ammo. For future reference, have a gunsmith check any Enfield for headspace prior to shooting.

Glad you are okay.

M

alsaqr
March 11, 2012, 10:58 PM
Glad you will be OK. Things could have turned out very badly.

i've fired a few thousand rounds of Tula .308 through my Remington 700 rifles with no ill effects.

The Enfield is marginal for the .308 to begin with; couple that with that fact many Enfields have headspace problems, add a steel cased round: There is a recipe for a potential disaster.

CmdrSlander
March 11, 2012, 11:01 PM
Go to your doctor about the metal shavings! I would if I had foreign materials embedded under my skin, I'm not saying you are in great danger but no matter the situation it is better to know for sure.

lobo9er
March 11, 2012, 11:08 PM
I dont own an Enfield but if I do at some point I am glad I read this thread. Didn't know there was head spacing problems with them. Everything has quirks

Jeff F
March 11, 2012, 11:19 PM
Ishapore.

Enfields are a bit notorious for generous headspace. More than likely the problem, not the ammo. For future reference, have a gunsmith check any Enfield for headspace prior to shooting.

Glad you are okay.

M
Yes, but make sure they are versed on Enfields and use the proper head space gauge. Its not a SAAMI .308 gauge but a military spec one.

Jackal
March 11, 2012, 11:48 PM
To put this theory to rest, this Enfield has never shown any signs of excessive headspace, no bulged primers, no sticky extraction, nothing. I have fired hundreds of rounds of Brown Bear, which is steel cased. This one particular round had very heavy recoil and a much sharper muzzle blast. It was an ammunition malfunction. I am glad that I did not fire this round through a more modern designed weapon, many of which have little in the way of gas flow protection (because modern ammo cant go bang, bang, KABOOM!:banghead::rolleyes:.

GWARGHOUL
March 12, 2012, 12:40 AM
If you will go to the trouble to find out what other labels Tula ammo may carry I'm willing to avoid shooting this stuff.

Uh... Herter's 7.62x39 is Tula.. and I think theres some generic stuff in a white box, I forgot the name.. its also Tula.

The local indoor range has banned ALL Tul ammo. Due to squib loads and such.

1KPerDay
March 12, 2012, 12:55 AM
Never seen a case fail at that spot.I have...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=595460

Herter's .308 in an Ishy Enfield. Luckily I wasn't hurt at all.

I won't shoot any more through my ishy, that's for sure. And probably no more through any other rifle.

diesel
March 12, 2012, 01:10 AM
hi, i was juat reading your post is this the same tula that is sold at wally world?
i usually use tula 7.62-39 for my ak
i have been noticeing some of the rds flash at the muzzle and some dont,
i never really thought about it till now

Jeff F
March 12, 2012, 01:25 AM
To put this theory to rest, this Enfield has never shown any signs of excessive headspace, no bulged primers, no sticky extraction, nothing. I have fired hundreds of rounds of Brown Bear, which is steel cased. This one particular round had very heavy recoil and a much sharper muzzle blast. It was an ammunition malfunction. I am glad that I did not fire this round through a more modern designed weapon, many of which have little in the way of gas flow protection (because modern ammo cant go bang, bang, KABOOM!:banghead::rolleyes:.
I still stand behind what I said. So you have shot lots of Brown Bear and gotten away with it. Tula is not Brown Bear and steel casings are not all made from the same steel. Keep all the unfired Tula and send it in for testing along with the round with the blown case head if you wish, I guess its possible it could have been an overcharged round, but if it were I would expect more damage then just a case head blowout.

Jibs
March 12, 2012, 01:27 AM
I just ordered 500 rounds of Tula .223 steel case ammo for my mini 14. Hope its not the ammo, but the gun's fault. Hope that thing heals up nicely for you.

diesel
March 12, 2012, 01:37 AM
tula is about the cheapest ak ammo i can find here in kentucky 5bucks a box
wolf is going for about 8 to 9 a box, but after seeing that 308 case i think i will switch to wolf in my centurion39:D

animator
March 12, 2012, 01:38 AM
hi, i was juat reading your post is this the same tula that is sold at wally world?
i usually use tula 7.62-39 for my ak
i have been noticeing some of the rds flash at the muzzle and some dont,
i never really thought about it till now
I wouldn't consider that to be anything to be alarmed about.

diesel
March 12, 2012, 01:42 AM
the muzzle flash? i wander how many other failures tula has had:scrutiny:

diesel
March 12, 2012, 01:47 AM
i did notice a more consistant flash with wolf ammo
i have a thread on here called centurion39 ak .
i was having some issues with my new ak boltcarrier peening just wandering if the ammo (tula) played a role

animator
March 12, 2012, 01:51 AM
i did notice a more consistant flash with wolf ammo
i have a thread on here called centurion39 ak .
i was having some issues with my new ak boltcarrier peening just wandering if the ammo (tula) played a role
Muzzle flash variations are not a way to determine an ammunition's performance or quality, and the ammunition is certainly not going to cause the concern your other thread is referring to.

diesel
March 12, 2012, 02:03 AM
good to hear tula ammo is quite accurate in my ak, wolf is just as good just more expensive when your shooting a couple hundred rds per range visit.
im just getting my ak broke in at about 550rds now:D

1858remington
March 12, 2012, 03:40 AM
A good bit of older military rifles had slightly larger chambers so that the gun would be less prone to jam due to build up fo fouling. I had a Remington rolling block in 43 spanish that was like this. After firing the rounds the brass was too large to be reloaded.

trapper500
March 12, 2012, 08:35 AM
I am glad youre ok

SlamFire1
March 12, 2012, 10:11 AM
My Brassey’s “Brassey’s Essential Guide to Military Small Arms, Design Principles and Operating Method, Author Allsp and Popelinsky, Brassey’s Inc, 1997” states the reason rear locking actions went out of favor was due to case breakage. This is an example of this as Lee Enfield rifles are very springy.

Lee Enfields are the only service rifle that I am aware of that requires case friction between the case and the chamber to function safely. The action is so weak and springy that the extra load (about 2000 lbs) from a slick case will either break the bolt or break the case. Currently the British National Rifle Association is warning shooters not to shoot their No 4 rifles in the rain! (The No 4 action is supposed to be the strong one :what:)

National Rifle Association
Spring 2010 Volume LXXXIX Number 1

SAFETY NOTICE
ENFIELD NO 4 RIFLE CONVERSIONS TO 7.62MM

Owners of Enfield No 4 actioned rifles in any calibre are strongly advised
not to use them in wet weather or without removing all traces of oil from
action and chamber prior to shooting.http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/general/journals.asp?site=NRA

Brass is the best case material around and American Military practice was to use quarter hard brass. That allowed a reasonable ductility and strength. Harder brass, and I am certain steel cases fit into that category, won’t stretch as far and will break.

It is a mistake to allow the case to carry load, it is a mistake to allow a case to stretch too much. If this was an unusual hot load, that Lee Enfield action simply stretched beyond the case material limits.

What is good is that the Lee Enfield vents gas well so the only injuries appear to be brass particles in the shooter’s wrist.

Yes, thank goodness it was not a small ring mauser, as there would have been a lot more parts flying around.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Blowups/pix517854000.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Blowups/pix517853969.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Blowups/M96Mauserblownup.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Blowups/BlownUpsmallringmauser2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Blowups/BlownUpsmallringmauser1.jpg

WardenWolf
March 12, 2012, 10:57 AM
Ouch. Well, I guess that's one reason not to rechamber a rifle. According to Wikipedia, .303 British has a maximum pressure of 49,000 PSI. 7.62x51 NATO has a standard pressure of 60,200 PSI! That's a massive increase in pressure when these rifles were rechambered. This means the converted .308 Enfields operate on much lower safety margins than those in the original .303.

Additionally, .308 Winchester is sometimes loaded hotter than 7.62 NATO. This further reduces the rifle's already poor safety margins. If anything you should have only been using military-spec ammo.

Double Naught Spy
March 12, 2012, 12:00 PM
3. To remove the metal, take a good sized potato, cut in half, place the cut open part on your injury where the metal fragments are. Leave it for about half bour or so, the potato will draw out the pieces of metal. You'll see them stuck on the potato lookin like glitter. Its an old metal workin trick, worked for my buddy darn well to get metal bits out of his EYE! Lol...

Very interesting technique. I wonder what would cause the steel to be attracted to the potato?

Actually, the steel isn't attracted to the potato. Apparently, spuds have the natural ability to draw from the body all sorts of foreign objects like wood and steel splinters, glass shards, poison, venom, and just about anything else you can think of. They are reported to heal burns, take care of acne, warts, insomnia, bags under your eyes, headaches, and MRSA.

Potato juice can cure cancer and stomach ulcers.

Or so these are some of the amazing claims of healing properties of the spud which is claimed to hold numerous healing nutrients.

Putting a slide of potato on your skin for an hour isn't going to do anything of consequence. Rubbing the potato slice over the surface of the sken reportedly can snag plinters and such.

Most of the potato claims are that it can draw things from the skin, which is really interesting. How does the pototato know what to draw out from the skin? Why doesn't this process result in hickies?

Depending on what you read and where, either the potato can just draw stuff out, or it is the starch in the potato that draws stuff out. Unlike the amazingly short treatment time noted above, most remedies have leaving the potato slice, poultice, or compress on the skin for an extended period of time, changing it out regularly until the problem is gone. Basically, it keeps the area moist. By keeping it moist, certain contaminants may come out as a result of osmotic reaction. Splinters and such apparently come out as a result of the skin being kept moist, softening the skin such that normal activities will allow the splinter to shift and so it moves toward the softer area (supposedly).

Note that bacon fact and a variety of fruits and vegetables have been claimed to do the exact same thing.

If a potato could draw out bits of steel under the skin's surface in 30 minutes as claimed, then using a couple rare earth magnets should do wonders, right?

Rshooter
March 12, 2012, 12:15 PM
Ouch. Well, I guess that's one reason not to rechamber a rifle. According to Wikipedia, .303 British has a maximum pressure of 49,000 PSI. 7.62x51 NATO has a standard pressure of 60,200 PSI! That's a massive increase in pressure when these rifles were rechambered. This means the converted .308 Enfields operate on much lower safety margins than those in the original .303.


Actually these rifles were made at the factory for .308 ammunition by the Indian Ishapore arsenal. They are not rechambered per sea but built for the .308 round.

sturmgewehr
March 12, 2012, 12:21 PM
I'm glad you're not seriously hurt.

dom1104
March 12, 2012, 12:30 PM
I think the solution to this problem, is not a potato......

but shooting the ammunition those old relic guns were designed around.

RevGeo
March 12, 2012, 01:31 PM
The problem may well have been with the rifle, but the OP reported a louder muzzle blast and a noticable increase in recoil. Sounds like a hot round to me.
The rifle would have to have an incredible headspace problem to have a case separation result in that kind of damage.

I'd get into the doctor just to have the paper trail in case of further negative developments.

wingman
March 12, 2012, 01:57 PM
I don't know the reason for your kaboom but I have never and will not use steel cased ammo others do and that is fine but I will stick with brass.;)

Jeff F
March 12, 2012, 02:36 PM
The problem may well have been with the rifle, but the OP reported a louder muzzle blast and a noticable increase in recoil. Sounds like a hot round to me.
The rifle would have to have an incredible headspace problem to have a case separation result in that kind of damage.

I'd get into the doctor just to have the paper trail in case of further negative developments.

What damage, I don't see that much damage. He had a case head separation and his rifle handled it just like it was designed. I have had the same thing happen a couple times shooting my No 4 in .303 before I learned about only neck sizing my fired brass. My forearm and wrist looked about the same as the OP's.

jerkface11
March 12, 2012, 10:22 PM
The problem may well have been with the rifle, but the OP reported a louder muzzle blast and a noticable increase in recoil.

I doubt it's easy to be objective about felt recoil and muzzle blast when the gun is blowing up in your face.

Jeff F
March 12, 2012, 10:27 PM
I doubt it's easy to be objective about felt recoil and muzzle blast when the gun is blowing up in your face.
Yea, I didn't go there but thats my feeling also.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
March 12, 2012, 10:59 PM
The recoil was more than likely in your head because of the louder blast. When you get head separation, you get about twice the blast. Had that been a serious overcharge, you would have had much more damage to the bolt face and receiver. Been there, done that.

gamestalker
March 12, 2012, 11:48 PM
I agree with Jeff F in that steel cases not expanding in the same manner as a brass case. In addition to this, a primary function that occures during firing is case sieze. A case needs to sieze to the chamber wall during a particular point, usually within the first half of the high side of the pressure curve. This prevents the case head from slamming into the bolt face with the full pressures of the burn. Now couple the lack of case sieze related to steel cases, along with a chamber that is a bit on the large side, and maybe border line head space, and complete case separations are highly likely.

nathan
March 13, 2012, 12:14 AM
Wow, i have my Ishapore 2A1 and so far i only shot brasscased South African 7.62 NATO. No bulge or signs of excessive headspace from what i ve seen. I ve shot a few Prvi Partizan .308 in soft point and no problem. The steelcased i may have to avoid, thanks for the heads up.

pingpingping
March 13, 2012, 03:28 AM
Whatever it is, I still don't trust that Tula crap. I've had bad experiences with it in 380.

nathan
March 13, 2012, 12:10 PM
The have no doubt they run great on semiautos like the Saiga .308. They are designed to eat just about anything you feed them . THey might be finicky on FALs.

animator
March 13, 2012, 01:33 PM
THey might be finicky on FALs.




They aren't. At least not in my experience.

SlamFire1
March 13, 2012, 03:08 PM
A case needs to sieze to the chamber wall during a particular point, usually within the first half of the high side of the pressure curve. This prevents the case head from slamming into the bolt face with the full pressures of the burn.

Only for Lee Enfields.

All other rifles are designed to take the full thrust of a maximum pressure cartridge ignoring all case friction.

Those that don't, you can't fire them in the rain, because the case is slick, and the locking mechanism can't hold the load. ;)

dprice3844444
March 13, 2012, 06:59 PM
find somebody with a good strong magnet or speaker magnet.get some neosporin and a tetanus shot

Jackal
March 13, 2012, 09:50 PM
I have edited the original post with the update from Tula customer service. Its unfortunate this happened, but I am pleased they are willing to make it right.:)

xxxleafybugxxx
March 13, 2012, 10:02 PM
I had Tula ammo ordered for my tantal, but was able to call and switch it to wolf. I don't like seeing stuff like this....

MAJ Mike
March 13, 2012, 10:36 PM
Hmmm. I've got a few hundred rounds of .308 Tula for my HK91. Haven't tried any of it yet. I will certainly wear eye protection and a long sleeved shirt when I try some.

Glad you're okay. Shame about the Enfield.

lobo9er
March 14, 2012, 07:50 AM
I am glad that they are helping you out. That is awesome. After doing somereding though the head space issue could have been a factor. It is possible you never noticed until Ka-boom!

The Sarge
March 14, 2012, 09:22 AM
Wrong ammo for wrong gun usually causes issues.
I have shot 1000's of rounds of Tula in my Saiga's. Not one single issue. Will continue to shoot Tula as it is cost effective and reliable.

I am not aware of one single ammo manufacturer who has never had a issue. Should we not buy anybodies ammo then?

Put the correct ammo in for your gun and you are usually OK. But first be sure your gun is within spec for the ammo you are planning on using.

Beagle-zebub
March 14, 2012, 10:04 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Wolf's steel-cased ammo now all made at the Tula Cartridge Works, which is presumably the same factory that makes all this Tula ammo? I mean, unless they have more than one ammo plant in the same city, which seems quite unlikely coming from a planned economy.

M1key
March 14, 2012, 11:29 AM
I would shoot Tula .308 in my Saiga without hesitation.

M

zfk55
March 14, 2012, 02:18 PM
Can you tell me if the bolt was in any way damaged, and would the bolt go into full battery afterward?

zfk55
March 14, 2012, 02:35 PM
This one is bothering me. Your photos look like the one's the Sheriff's dept. took of an Enfield that suffered that same looking problem when I was 12. Its a very long story but I can tell you that the Sheriff's dept here was able to duplicate the same thing with a second rifle after I was flown by helicopter to the hospital. They jump-started me twice enrout. It was as near to death as I've ever been.
I still carry three Enfield parts in my body. Nobody in this family will fire any Enfield.

It took 123 rounds remotely fired from a locked in rest to duplicate the first incident with original factory ammo, but it was not the ammo. The Enfield can be caused to fire out of battery.
If I can find all the old photos and the report I'll post it here. I've heard 1,000 Enfield ownrs call BS on this one, but I'm alive and the incident was duplicated by the Sheriff's dept.
Very glad it wasn't worse, OP. It very well could have been.

*That should have been "The original issue ammo of the time" *

Jeff F
March 14, 2012, 03:52 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Wolf's steel-cased ammo now all made at the Tula Cartridge Works, which is presumably the same factory that makes all this Tula ammo? I mean, unless they have more than one ammo plant in the same city, which seems quite unlikely coming from a planned economy.
I believe some of it is and I also believe Wolf gets their ammo made to their specifications from a number of different Russian ammo plants. I had a bunch of Herter's .223 from Cabela's that had Wolf head stamps on the cases, the more recent Herter's .223 is head stamped Tula. I have been in contact with Wolf over the Herter's ammo and I believe they are getting into a lawsuit over it. i know they want any wolf head stamped ammo thats not Wolf packaged back. Heres a link.
http://www.wolfammo.com/pdf/WOLF_Packaging_Alert.pdf

zfk55
March 14, 2012, 04:10 PM
I forgot to mention that your case seperation is exactly what mine looked like, with the exception of the rim still being in my lower back.

Jackal
March 14, 2012, 08:15 PM
Can you tell me if the bolt was in any way damaged, and would the bolt go into full battery afterward?

Yup. Bolt lug recess is freshly pushed back. Bolt now has a fair amount of setback. Bolt will not close all the way.

A big Kudos to the factory for taking care of me.

This gun was headspace checked when I purchased it at a retail location. Headspace was in check, though now I am sure it will not likely be, due to the fresh set back. I have fired Tula ammo from this rifle before, never had a problem or any bad signs. This rifle has always been perfect. It is not the guns fault. I fail to understand why so many cant believe that an ammo manufacturer cannot produce a bad round out of millions. In fact, I also had a Tula .45acp round squib in my Taurus .45. Lets face it, its not quality ammo. Will I use it again in other weapons such as SKS and Ak's? Perhaps, but with brass case being available for only 5-10 cents more per round in most calibers, I think I'll spend the extra and enjoy having my face intact.

The Sarge
March 14, 2012, 08:17 PM
I believe. As I said. Name one single ammo manufacturer who has not had a boo boo round. All of them have.

zfk55
March 14, 2012, 08:50 PM
And that's exactly the reaction I've gotten for the past 20 years.
Best of luck.

R.W.Dale
March 14, 2012, 09:48 PM
And that's exactly the reaction I've gotten for the past 20 years.
Best of luck.

I for one am greatly interested in hearing your story particularly the circumstances surrounding the explosion.

It would probably be best done in a dedicated thread.

posted via mobile device.

preaction
March 14, 2012, 10:18 PM
Why didnt you look up the ammo on line before you purchased it ? you said that after this, you looked and found others were having this type of problem with the ammo you purchased, when do you look first ? Cheap ammo will always be cheap.

Jackal
March 14, 2012, 10:52 PM
Why didnt you look up the ammo on line before you purchased it ?

Its not uncommon to assume that factory ammo will be within spec.

Think of cancer, most people know little about, until they get it.

jnoble87
March 14, 2012, 11:38 PM
I used Golden Bear .30-06 ammo in my Mossberg ATR 100 once. Fired 8 rounds through the rifle and stopped when I noticed the cases bulging funny and not ejecting properly. The primer faces looked like someone took a hammer to them. No way was I gonna blow myself up, so I gave it back to the guy I got it from. Sorry about your luck man.

zfk55
March 15, 2012, 08:03 AM
Ok RW. This is going to take a while. I'll have to find the typed report my Father gave the Sheriff's dept and anything else I can get from them. That's a lot of years ago. I'll do my best.
When it happened three pieces of metal entered my mid right chest. They hit ribs and one is still lodged near my heart. One is near the base of my spine in the back and the last one is still in my upper arm.
It was deemed to dangerous to operate and my parents were told that eventually they would migrate close to the surface and could be removed. They didn't migrate fast enough and scar tissure formed around them and they're now locked in place.
I'll see how much I can find.

*Forgot to add that I do set of airport alarms and hvae to repeat the same story every time.*

brnmuenchow
March 15, 2012, 08:38 AM
I am also glad that you are okay, and no I do not have an explanation or an excuse for this problem. However, I have found out through my own experiance sometimes guns, ammo, etc.. etc.. are just like cars. You can drive 3 Chevy Camaro's and all be fine till that 4th one just does not get the job done and it's just a POS. So you can write that one off and try again or switch to a Ford Mustang and see what you get. My point is as for the Tula brand of ammo, I use it in almost all my Guns they have chamberings for and so far have never had an issue, and hope I never will. Unlike me where I swiched from GM to Ford vehicles for my own reasons and have been happy ever since, I don't know if this may be a "bad brand" or just a bad batch (refering to the ammo now) in which "all" manufactures have problems from time to time. (And that includes auto companies.)

bigedp51
March 15, 2012, 08:22 PM
Is Russia part of NATO?

Does the Tula plant in Russia make 7.62 NATO ammunition to NATO standards?

Does the Russia Tula plant test their 7.62 NATO ammunition to NATO EPVAT testing standards?

Does "ANY" Russian ammunition manufacturing plant conform to American SAAMI ammunition standards?

Does "ANY" Russian ammunition manufacturing plant conform to European CIP ammunition standards?

Question, where is the thickest part of the cartridge case located?

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/deform.gif

Question, why did this case rupture at the extractor groove when this should be the thickest part of the case?

NOTE: The red and yellow areas above are the high stress areas where stretching and thinning "NORMALLY" occur.

And last but not least "WHY" did the company agreed to pay any damages by just looking at the photos posted in a firearms forum here of the ruptured case?

Below a .303 Enfield testing the gas venting system, please notice the paper wrapping the action was not blown apart by the venting gas at 46,000 cup or 49,000 psi.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/303sep3-1.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/303sep2-1.jpg

And notice the case did NOT seperate at the rim but 1/2 inch above the base of the rim at a thinner area of the case.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/stuckcase-2.jpg

Jackal
March 15, 2012, 09:39 PM
Bigedp51: Exactly. Thank you for substantiating my points. They knew they had a faulty round after looking at my pictures, thats why they have agreed to pay for everything, no questions asked.:eek:

Perfesser
March 15, 2012, 10:19 PM
Just an observation...it sure looks like the case body and head may have been separate pieces - maybe welded?? Look at the open end of the case body in the 3rd pic and the case head inside face; looks like a joint was pulled (or blown) apart; it should be ragged, not a smooth break. And the metal on the head at the break looks porous or maybe crystallized. .

brnmuenchow
March 16, 2012, 07:51 AM
They knew they had a faulty round after looking at my pictures, thats why they have agreed to pay for everything, no questions asked.

I am glad to see that they admit to fault, and will compensate for everything... that is good news.

7.62 Nato
March 16, 2012, 06:48 PM
Do you have any lot numbers for this ammo ? Please post them if you do.

303 hunter
March 16, 2012, 07:21 PM
I had the same thing happen with an Ishapore; except it got me in the face! If not for safety glasses, I'd probably be blind. I found out the chamber was VERY over size. I was shooting Lake City surplus. The gun was not damaged, but I never shot it again.

SlamFire1
March 16, 2012, 10:13 PM
Question, why did this case rupture at the extractor groove when this should be the thickest part of the case?

I don't know. Maybe it is due to case head hardness.

Take a look at the pictures in this thread. A shooter with an 308 Isaphore and he was shooting Herter's steel case. Notice the case that is split right though the extractor groove.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=595460&highlight=Herter%27s+.308+steel+cased+ammo+failure+%28ruined+my+rifle%29

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
March 16, 2012, 10:25 PM
This guy just doesn't want to believe what we all have been trying to tell him. It was a combination of variables. Probable oversized chamber, steel case, might have been slightly overcharged. I couldn't lay blame of it all on Tula. I've just seen too many of the EXACT same case rupture problems not out of only Ishies but several Enfields. Just don't shoot steel cased out of them and you will more than likely never have an issue. Just because Tula is "supposidly" going to pay all these "damages" doesn't really mean they are accepting the blame. It just means it would be cheaper than having to fight it in court as well as have to deal with bad publicity.

Jackal
March 16, 2012, 10:33 PM
Just because Tula is "supposidly" going to pay all these "damages" doesn't really mean they are accepting the blame

Seriously, why the sarcasm, thats not very high road. You have a factory round blow up in your face and see how happy you are about it.


They are not "supposedly" paying the "damages" , they ARE paying the bills. And yes, they did accept all the blame. I dropped off the rifle today at the gunsmith (he says the bolt is in fact quite set back now and that the round in question did not blow where it would have if headspace or chamber issues would have caused it) and Tula is sending me a prepaid UPS label for the remainder of my ammo. It simply is a faulty round. Not too rare and not unheard of but still scary.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
March 16, 2012, 11:31 PM
Was no sarcasm intended. Was flat out stating "supposidly" and "damages". I know how big companies operate. And sending you a prepaid UPS label to pick up your unused ammo isn't paying a thing. They are covering their own butts by you sending them any remaining evidence of possible over-charges. We shall see if they actually pick up any tabs.

And being as I have been into firearms for well over 40 years, trust me, I have had more than my share of blowups. Been reloading for a little over 30 years now BECAUSE of crap like that. Never had that problem since. And news flash, case head separation will split dead on right where yours did 50% of the time because of headspace and chamber issues. You need a new gunsmith if he is telling you it doesn't because he doesn't know his business very well.

bigedp51
March 16, 2012, 11:45 PM
SlamFire1

Its obvious you do not understand bolt thrust or why a cartridge case is to grip the chamber walls when fired. :eek: On top of this you can't make up your mind if the case is to grip the chamber walls or not. :rolleyes:

SlamFire1May 31, 2011, 09:00 PM
Case head separation or rupture is exactly what you get with excessive headspace, it's the classic sign.

When a cartridge is fired, the thinner parts of the case expand, gripping the chamber walls. At the back, where the case is thicker, it can't expand easily so it stretches to the rear. Normally the bolt face limits that rearward movement. If the headspace is too long that rear movement will go beyond the limits of the case's ability to stretch, and it will rupture. And, since the base of the case is not in contact with the bolt, you get the primer pushed out then flattened since there is nothing back there to stop it initially, if at all.

SlamFire1March 12, 2012, 10:11 AM
Lee Enfields are the only service rifle that I am aware of that requires case friction between the case and the chamber to function safely.

From the 1929 British military "Textbook of Small Arms"

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/TBOSA-2.jpg

Our reloading manuals tell us not to lube our ammo because the case must grip the chamber walls.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/lyman-1a.jpg

And the United States Army tells you to NOT lube your ammo so the cartridge case can grip the chamber walls.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/dontlube.jpg

And our commercial firearms manufactures tell us to NOT lube our ammo so the case can grip the chamber walls.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/oilcover.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/oilinchamber.jpg

This is why I tell everyone to NOT lube their ammo and make sure the chamber is free of all oil and grease.

The cartridge case should not have come apart at the extractor groove at the thickest part of the case, the OP case was defective and its as simple as that.

When you have a case head separation the case splits approximately 1/2 inch above the rim, NOT at the extractor groove!

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/308failA.jpg

SlamFire1
March 17, 2012, 09:03 AM
And the United States Army tells you to NOT lube your ammo so the cartridge case can grip the chamber walls.

Because the increased bolt thrust presumptions behind the article are not true, I decided to call UASTCES and find out if they had data. I was able to reach the man who actually wrote that section.

USATCES is not a engineering design bureau, basically I would categorize it as “logistical”. Most of the guys I talked to had retired from the Army and now were supporting the troops in deployments.

Now understand that these are good guys, asking on the best information they were given, which came from their years in the service, and they are trying to do the right thing.

It is unfortunate that “the best information” came from the Army Tin Can ammunition coverup of 1920/1921. A coverup that Gen Hatcher and Col Townsend Whelen of Frankfort Arsenal repeated in the popular press for decades.

The following are excerpts of communications between myself and the author of the article. The author is an outstanding conscientious gentleman who decided to find if there was a factual basis for the claims of increased pressures and increased bolt thrust that were made in the article.

USATCES:
I have asked a number of organizations, Army and private.

To date, I have received no answer from the government agency (Army Marksmanship Unit at Ft. Benning).

All private organizations responded (Speer, Remington, Ruger,
Hornady, and Nosler)

They all do not recommend oiling cartridge cases. Some cited increased thrust on the bolt, but others cited primer contamination, others simply indicated "increased pressure" with no further explanation.

None indicated they had any data on increased thrust on the bolt.

Thus, the results are inconclusive at this point. I hope I hear from
Benning.


All of this is a legacy memory from 1920 and the 1921 National Matches. In 1920 Frankford Arsenal was looking for a means to mitigate their responsibility for the kabooms resulting from their poorly manufactured ammunition and those Army made single heat treat receivers on the line. They found that many of the competitors were dipping their bullets in grease, to reduce jacket fouling. Shooters been doing so for decades. Frankford Arsenal initiated a coverup, "proving" Government ammo was safe but that greased bullets were bad. This coverup totally passed the blame onto the civilian shooters and absolved them of all responsibility in the accidents.

In 1921 Frankfork Arsenal issued NM ammunition which used tin coated jackets. The tin was there to reduce jacket fouling. Unfortunately cold welding was not well understood, and the tin bonded with the brass case necks and caused a bore obstruction. Apparently there were serious rifle blowups a number of which are documented in Hatcher's Notebook.

The 1921 NM tin can ammunition was very dangerous but the Army had an out; the use of grease on bullets was still common. They simply expanded the coverup of 1920 and ignored the effects of cold welding. Again, it was all the civilian shooters fault. Gen Hatcher and Col Townsend Whelen (who was in charge of Frankfort Arsenal 1920/21) spread this coverup in the popular press for decades. Eventually it morphed, from greased bullets, to all greased and oiled cartridges were bad.

Interestingly British shooters were lubing their bullets as "never nickle" grease was being sold by Parker up to the 1960's. Of course we all know that the Swiss greased their bullets up to the 80's.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Case%20Lubrication/SwissGP11greasedcaseneck.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Reloading/Case%20Lubrication/IMG_1567.jpg


I do not disagree at all with his statements of oil dudding primers or oil attracting dirt. These are primary reasons why oilers were designed out of machine guns and you don't see them after WWII. There were plenty of actions, as you know, prior the WWI that used oilers. As you know through many threads, oilers were used in the Schwarzlose, the Nambu, the Italian Breda, and even today cases are being coated with teflon :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7%C3%9728mm

FN's 5.7×28mm cartridge cases are covered with a special polymer coating for easier extraction with the PS90 carbine due to the high chamber pressures and lack of case tapering.[32] In addition, this coating ensures proper feeding and function in the magazines.[32]


The cartridge case should not have come apart at the extractor groove at the thickest part of the case, the OP case was defective and its as simple as that.

Probably was, can’t see how it could be otherwise, but that is not the only case picture that I have seen where a case broke through the case head.

Wish I have saved them, but I have seen pictures of brass case heads that look exactly like steel tula case head.

Why did these cases crack through the head? I don’t know, sometimes stuff happens.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Blowups/Scharchsectioned223Rembrassblownout.jpg

bigedp51
March 17, 2012, 12:11 PM
SlamFire1
Because the increased bolt thrust presumptions behind the article are not true

Go back and read the section from the "Textbook of Small Arms" I posted above and stop being in denial about bolt thrust.

The British used a copper crusher method of measuring chamber pressure where the copper crusher pellet was located at the base of the case. An oil cartridge delivered approximately 40% to 50% "MORE" thrust to the bolt.

"In Britain, a third set of crusher standards were developed, using a "base" crusher. The crusher was a short, thick tube placed behind a piston at the base of the cartridge, and the firing pin passed through the center. The cartridge case was well oiled before firing, to minimize cling to the chamber walls"

Cartridge Pressure Standards
http://kwk.us/pressures.html

The oiled proof cartridge was used to seat the bolt head to the bolt body and seat the bolt lugs to the bolt lug recesses in the receiver. After proofing if the headspace increased over .003 the rifle failed proof testing.

Oil or grease in the chamber doubles the amount of bolt thrust and can and will damage any firearm.

SlamFire1
March 17, 2012, 01:51 PM
Oil or grease in the chamber doubles the amount of bolt thrust and can and will damage any firearm.

Maybe for Lee Enfields which cannot be fired in the rain without danger of the bolt breaking, but for modern well designed actions, case friction is totally ignored in lug/action design.

Of course you have been here before:

http://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm

R.W.Dale
March 17, 2012, 01:54 PM
Oil or grease in the chamber doubles the amount of bolt thrust and can and will damage any firearm.

As an absolute this is not true. The Swedish ag42b for example depends on lightly oiled cartridges for proper function. Nor will a no1 or modern bolt action care. Thousands of deer get shot every year from gins with squeaky clean well oils bores and chambers.

Freedom_fighter_in_IL
March 17, 2012, 02:20 PM
You guys are trying to argue a point that really isn't in question here. The problem with steel cases is they do not have the "flexibility" of brass. In an oversized chamber, this can lead to all kinds of problems. Combine that with improper head-space, and you have a blowup waiting to happen. Now, if Jackal used the same inept smith that is telling him that case head splits never happen at the point of the groove to check his head-spacing previously, then I am in doubt that he knew how to properly check head space.

Now granted, most all military chambers are cut oversize to accommodate for dirty ammo to lessen feed issues, but the fact is, not all military rifles are configured in this fashion with steel cased ammo in mind. Steel just doesn't have the flexibility to function properly in these actions. As most of us have already said, it's not all Tulas fault. The evidence that has been shown to us more or less shows a failure of many factors.

Anyway, just glad you have no real injuries.

Shadow 7D
March 17, 2012, 02:27 PM
DUDE
I don't have it, but I have read it
it was a discussion of oil on ammo, and CIP proof procedures, one of the proof rounds is oil SPECIFICALLY TO REDUCE CHAMBER grip and therefore test JUST THE BOLT STRENGTH.

so um,some dude, I can call lots of people in the army, and I can get a private to tell me anything... most will look to see if a relevant TM covers it. Sorry but I'll take a PROOF house and scientific/engineering paper over some guy in supply.

B!ngo
March 17, 2012, 02:55 PM
Ill bet the OP is OK wrt metal in his skin simply because as you can see from the pics pretty much all the case is accounted for with nothing missing.

posted via mobile device.
I would not take that bet. Though many vets carry metal in them, and it often migrates out, that does ensure that it is a healthy situation. I would definitely consult an informed physician (sorry to hear that it is a financial stress but it is your health we're talking about here) and err on caution.
Sorry to hear about this. I had an H&K P7 (of all things) blow up in my hand recently when a case split open. Not fun - for either my hand and arm, or the firearm. Not as bad as your case, but it got my attention.
Best of luck,
B

bigedp51
March 17, 2012, 03:58 PM
Freedom_fighter_in_IL

You guys are trying to argue a point that really isn't in question here.

Actually you are wrong, the steel case gripped the chamber walls and the very bottom of the case blew off and set back the bolt. (BOLT THRUST)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/boltthrust.jpg

I own a 2A1 and collected the Enfield rifle for over 15 years, on top of this I collected and supplied 95% of all the Enfield books and military manuals you see on the Internet today.

I even have Dutch Enfield manuals. :eek:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/FrontCover.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Img011.jpg

So lets cover some facts, the OP stated the headspace was checked before he bought the rifle. What headspace standards were used? There are no, none, zip, official printed headspace specifications for the Indian made 2A1 rifle to be found anywhere, so how was the headspace checked?

On top of this what are the specifications for Indian made 7.62 ammunition, meaning case dimensions in the base web area.

What standards are the Russian made ammunition made to, NATO, SAAMI, CIP or Russian. What are Russian headspace standards for their ammunition?

What happens when you fire a commercially made factory cartridge designed for less headspace in a "LONGER" military chamber? Let me give you a hint, the case will stretch in the base web area beyond its design limits.

The Tula cartridge case let loose at the extractor groove because the case was not formed correctly when made. Any "NORMAL" case would have ruptured well above the extractor groove where the case is thinner.

The Australians were the ones who perfected the design of the 7.62 NATO No.1 SMLE Enfield rifle and the Indians just used the Australian data and information when they built their 2A1 Enfield rifles with higher grade steel. The story of the development, testing and finial design is written about in the book by Ian Skennerton below.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/AustralianSMLEVari.jpg

SlamFire1
March 17, 2012, 06:45 PM
Firearms Maintenance 101

Protecting oil, in the bore and especially in the chamber, should be removed before shooting. At the moment of ignition, a cartridge case expands to tightly grip or seize the chamber walls; when this happens, because the case is seized tight, the backwards thrust upon the bolt face is lowered greatly. How much? Most of today’s modern, centerfire rifle cartridges are designed to operate at between 48,000 and 52,000 psi. When you lubricate the chamber, the cartridge case still expands, but the lubrication keeps it from seizing tight. Consequently, thrust on the bolt face is equivalent to a 70,000-psi cartridge being fired--about equivalent to a "blue pill" proof load. Dry that chamber before firing!

http://woodsdrummer.com/ml06.html

And why should I consider the author of Firearms Maintenance an authority or a reliable source?

Especially after I have talked to gun designers about what they used as loads when designing their mechanisms?

bigedp51
March 17, 2012, 09:50 PM
Show me one factual printed article written by the firearms manufactures, ammunition manufactures or the reloading companies telling you to grease or oil your cartridge cases. (you can't there isn't any) :(

Or we can talk about P.O. Ackley and his Ackley improved cartridges that produce "LESS" bolt thrust.
(gee I wonder why) :eek:

SlamFire1
March 18, 2012, 01:28 PM
Good pun in the picture though a bit sexist for this era.

P.O Ackley was selling snake oil.

Cases don’t act as wedges or inclines. Unfortunately they stretch. They don’t carry load, or should not carry load, when they are expected to carry load, as in the Lee Enfield, they inevitably fail at some condition; cases are simply a gas seal.

At the time ole PO was selling his Ackley improved (AI) cartridges, he was blowing out the shoulders, straightening the case, to increase powder capacity and raising pressures. It is obvious that ole PO was taking flak from folks who were claiming that his high pressure cartridges were overstressing the action.

Savants on other forums give out a rule of thumb that a 40% increase in case volume provides a 10% velocity increase, implicit is the assumption that this is isobaric. This may is crude rule of thumb, and I have done nothing to verify this.

Below are comparisions of Ackley's published data compared to pressure tested data.

49th edition of Lyman Handbook, the max load of a standard 30-30 with a 150 grain bullet and using 28 grs IMR 3031, the velocity is 2145 with a pressure of 38,000 cup.

In Ackley’s own handbook, the maximum load for a 30-30 AI for a 150 grain bullet using IMR 3031 is 38 grains for a velocity of 2700 fps.

From web data, the case capacity of the 30-30 Ackley vs the unImproved Winchester parent differ by 5% http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3030atext.htm yet here you have Ackley stuffing in 10 additional grains of powder and claiming a velocity increase of 25% over the standard 30-30.

Remember the rule of thumb, 40% increase in volume 10% increase in velocity. Ackley increased volume by 5% and got a 25% increase in velocity.

The only way to get those sort of velocities through incredibly high pressures.

If you go to your 1957 Gun Digest, factory ballistics for the Winchester 180 grain Super Speed 30-06 is 2700 fps. Modern reloading data shows you can push a 180 Barnes with 55.7 grs IMR 4350 to 2685 fps, in close agreement with older factory data.

Ackley’s handbook gives reloading data of 61 grains IMR 4350 with a 180 grain bullet for a velocity of 3053 fps.

Noslers shows a max load for the 30-06AI of 56.5 grs IMR 4350 with a 180 gr bullet at 2835.

For the 30-06AI Ackley is putting 5.3 additional grains of powder in the case and claiming a velocity increase of 13% over the parent cartridge. His data is pushing bullets 218 fps faster than modern pressure tested ammunition of the same case.

The only way to do this is through incredibly high pressures.

Clearly anyone now, or then, who had access to a ballistic lab or even crude rules of thumb would be able to say that the only way Ackley was able to achieve those high velocities was by raising pressures.

Given that egos were the same than as now, Ackley heard the opinions of the loyal opposition and did not like what he heard.

Ackley was taking heat because he was getting high velocities from his improved cartridges, cartridges which were being used in actions not designed for those levels of pressures. P.O. wanted to show that his high pressure cartridges did not increase bolt thrust so he ran a rigged experiment to protect his reputation and prove a bogus point, that is straight walled cases reduce bolt thrust and therefore his overpressure loads are safe to use in standard actions.

You just have to read his section in his handbook, it is his way of addressing concerns of the critics and he starts off by claiming that no one knows the design limits of actions. What is certain he did not know, it is also certain that designers are not going to provide that information to the general public, and it shows the limits of a skilled machinist when it comes to matters of mechanical engineering design. Ackley does not know, does not know how to calculate such things, and he goes off in the direction if the action holds it, it must be safe.

P.O Ackley cartridges are very interesting and P.O’s test of a straight sided cartridge holding pressure without a breech block has been duplicated. The tester swabbed the chamber out with alcohol swabs between shots. The Ackley cartridge held. However the other cartridges, such as the 30-30, 35 Remington, blew out of the breech at 1900 fps. A 150 grain cartridge case flying at 1900 fps will go through both sides of most people's skulls.

Read carefully Boatright’s papers one of which he shows how a 308 case, in a clean chamber, can lock in and hold pressures by itself up to 25K psia.

Go to Jim Boatright’s web page.

http://www.thewellguidedbullet.com/

Look for yielding of the brass case in these studies

http://www.thewellguidedbullet.com/mechanical_studies.htm

However once pressures go above 25K psia, Boatwright shows the brass case stretches and if not supported, the case head will blow off.

Regardless of taper, cases are made out of brass and will stretch. There may be bolt load reduction due to friction and stretching but it is inconsistent and not to be relied on in any way.

If you notice, P.O. Ackley never printed experiments conducted with a 30-06 or a similar high pressure cartridge. I am certain if he had reported the results, it would have been a litany of case heads blowing out the back of his lug less rifles at lethal velocities. It is likely he did, given all the actions and barrels he had around, I believe it is more credible that he ran tests in a number of Ackley Improved cartridges but only published the test that supported his theory. We see this all the time when reputations and money are at stake. If he did not, then he should have bought a lottery ticket because he was very lucky. We do know that Ackley and others did not conduct sensitivity tests, varying chamber finish, (chrome for example), powders, primers, or much of anything else. There are axial loads which must be taken into account and case taper does nothing to reduce them, in fact his straight taper reamers reduce barrel thickness when used in a standard barrel. I totally disagree with the conclusion that Ackley and others have drawn, that his cartridges reduce bolt thrust and therefore a user can just pour the coal into the cartridge and let fly.

Ole P.O. was interested in promoting his cartridges, found a “one off” and left a very misleading legacy in terms of case friction, load, and chamber roughness.

jerkface11
March 18, 2012, 01:32 PM
Show me one factual printed article written by the firearms manufactures, ammunition manufactures or the reloading companies telling you to grease or oil your cartridge cases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag_m/42

The swedes said to do it.

Shadow 7D
March 18, 2012, 04:53 PM
WAIT
THERE ARE TIMES THAT LUBED CASES ARE REQUIRED
they are ALL semi auto's OR FULL AUTO, usually blowback or similar design where DUE TO THE SPEED (aka cyclic rate) the case had to be lubed to assist extraction

AND THESE WEAPONS ARE BUILT FOR IT
what we are discussing here is the Lee-Enfeild action, which MUCH like the Krag-Jorganson is strong ENOUGH for the round it was designed for.

If you read the history of the US Krag, after the Spanish war, experiments were conducted chambering Krag rifles in 7mm Mauser OR a UP-loaded .30 army (30-40 krag) The 7mm was never adopted as it was too much for the action, and the uploaded rounds were withdrawn as they were found to be unsafe. These are why the US adopted the 98 Mauser as our standard service rifle after just 7? years of using the Krag.

Yes, I'm referring to the first of two US mausers, the 1903 Springfield.

Now, what does this have to do with lubing ammo
A bolt action will NEVER approach the speed of a maxim or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_42

And the lubing of the Swede AG was due to UNDER gassing of the DI system.
which will happen with certain types of powders in cold climates, as yes, powder IS temperature sensitive.

Shadow 7D
March 18, 2012, 04:55 PM
In otherwords Jerkface
that has nothing to do with this incident
as it adds nothing except confusion to a discussion of the importance of proper maintenance and use of a Lee Enfeild.

jerkface11
March 18, 2012, 06:52 PM
He asked for one example of lubed cases being called for and I gave it to him. I didn't ask you to like it.

bigedp51
March 18, 2012, 11:44 PM
I said:

Show me one factual printed article written by the firearms manufactures, ammunition manufactures or the reloading companies telling you to grease or oil your cartridge cases. (you can't there isn't any)

I didn't say show me a military manual for Swedish military rifle that wont function unless you oil the cases. I didn't think any case greasers would be that dumb enough to bring up that poorly designed rifle.

Now lets see does the M1 Garand manual tell you to oil your cartridges.......NO

As a side note I didn't know that SlamFire1 has been taking writing lessons from fguffey,
And SlamFire1 please try and keep your postings to 50,000 words or less. :rolleyes: (your smoke and mirrors ain't working) ;)

And go ahead and keep oiling and greasing your cases and pounding your rifles with excess bolt thrust.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/BoltRightLug-Closeup02-12192009.jpg

Robert
March 19, 2012, 01:15 AM
As the OP has had his situation made good on all counts by Tula and is happy with the results I am going to put this one to bed.

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